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Kept status

Pope Pius XII

Review commentary

User:Savidan, original editor, already aware. Messages left at Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/to do and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism,. Sandy 19:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article describes complex circumstances often by only one sentence. The facts are thus decontextualized, sometimes turned into the contrary. Furthermore, this article makes use of the appalling Hirshberger-image, which is POV and makes this a biased, balanced article.

Also see discussion, esp. request for opinion there. UAltmann 16:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first criticism ("context") is too general to be actionable. Many edits which have been labelled as context involve the dumping of large swathes of European history into the article which have little relevance to Pius's actual biography. This is not an article for discussing the entire history of Europe during the first half of the 20th century, or even the history of the catholic church during that period.
The Hirshberger image is being discussed on the talk page. If you see the "request for opinion" there, you will see that the only two users who have responded so far have supported the inclusion of the image. savidan(talk) (e@) 17:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Savidan, this is not true,
Str1977 has voted to remove the image,
so has Chris. UAltmann 17:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
FearEireaan (Jtdirl) has voted to remove the image. UAltmann 05:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As to other criticism than the image: Savidan never lets us edit without consensus, consensus with him is impossible, since he has to all kinds of critizism his stereotype answers: "not actionable" "not biographic" "no relevance" "no entire history of church/europe", the list could go on and on.
Dates are not wikified.
You cannot describe complex circumstances with only one sentence. This is simply not encyclopedic. I am referring to the section where a report of v. Weizsäcker to Berlin Gov't. is cited. Neither the content of the citation is the whole truth nor leaving out its intent. Leaving both out is turning the actual message of the citation into the opposite. In this case, it would be better to leave out the circumstance, but do not alter the facts. One time I wanted to initiate a change of this, Savidan suggested I claimed v. Weizsäcker to have been a double agent. This is nonsense, v. Weizsäcker had a vital interest to let his 'Führer' not enlarge the conflict, which would have been the case if Hitler would have declared war on the catholic world. To keep Hitler vom enlarging the conflict, he worked together with Pius XII . There are numerous sources for this, v. Weizsäcker, Blet, Lapide, etc. UAltmann 06:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have accepted the removal of the Hirshberger image for the time being on fair use grounds. I'll wikify the dates too. As for this Weizsacker thing, what I explained to you on the talk page is that things like intent cannot be stated as objective facts in the same way that quotations can. The current quotation is undisputable--he said it. The intent is a matter of opinion/interpretation/etc. If you want to include this information you need a full citation and you need to attribute it to the author who ascribes this motive to v. Weizsacker (if your source is v. Weizsacker himself, state the way that he later explained his actions, and when).

All three of these sources that you mention are for the most part entirely out of print, and were never readily available in english. If your information instead comes from a secondary source who cites one of these three, then give a complete citation for that and at least we can work from there. savidan(talk) (e@) 18:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This review was started on August 30, 2006 but was listed on September 14, 2006. Joelito (talk) 19:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article was made FA in June, and appears to be subject to POV warring. Perhaps instead of de-listing, the article should be reverted back to its nomination state, it appears much more concise and less biased than it has become. Judgesurreal777 22:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm honestly not sure if there are still ongoing disputes about the two sections in question. Str threw up the pov flag in the "Reichskonkordat" section but hasn't replied yet since I rewrote the section, and CJGB added section dispute to the post-war orphans section, not because the content there was overtly incorrect but because he thought he could rewrite it to be more clear; that hasn't happened in a few weeks. Whenever I remove a dispute tag it seems to provoke moral outrage, but it does seem like there should be a burden on the disputer to attempt to discuss the objections in a timely manner. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I move that this FAC be closed. Judgesurreal777 01:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I move that this FAC remains open. While the article has a ton of references, there are still places which need references. LuciferMorgan 11:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are comprehensiveness (1b), POV (1d), images (3). Marskell 18:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: There was no consensus for closing early, so here it is. Marskell 18:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are no actionable concerns here. This review was started by UAltmann based on some minor disputes which have long since been resolved. The Hirshberger image was removed for fair use reasons and the section disputes have been addressed. savidan(talk) (e@) 19:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are actionable concerns here, namely criterion 1. c. of "What is a featured article?". Yes there are a ton of references here, but given the size of the article they're real sporadic. The article needs more inline citations. Until this is done, I vote Remove. LuciferMorgan 13:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please provide examples of sentences which require an in-line citation? Otherwise, this objection is not actionable. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate you need clarification, but my objections are actionable. I'll find some examples though. LuciferMorgan 22:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A quick glance throws up the "Priest and Monsignor" subsection that needs inline citations, and I'm sure there's others. LuciferMorgan 22:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First paragraph of "Archbishop and papal nuncio" needs citing. These are only examples by the way, as there's more. LuciferMorgan 22:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a lot of citations to these sections, to the point where I think that there are too many. I am reluctant to add any more without knowing which statement you think lacks sourcing. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but will Savidan please change the titles to normal case, not title case (see MoS on this). One reference is wrongly formatted in "Archbishop and Papal nuncio". Tony 13:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Missing ref— not sure what this is: Pollard, 2005, p. 70. Can the External links be trimmed down (WP:NOT, WP:EL)?
I added the Pollard ref. Don't know if I never remembered to add it or if it got removed somehow. I'm pretty happy with the EL right now, but if you have any in mind that you think are problematic, I'd be open to removing some. savidan(talk) (e@) 03:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If all of the External links are relevant and important, I'm satisified with that, but I still see a lot of direct quotes (throughout the article) without inline cites. Sandy (Talk) 23:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I fixed what you were referring to. Two of them were quotes where the source was named in the text of the sentence and I added references. Two fo them were these unsourced "Nazi media" quotes which some IP snuck into the article several times. I always considered that passage to be unrepentently point of view, so I just removed it. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, issues addressed. Sandy (Talk) 02:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove for now.Neutral. Sorry but issues are not addressed here; at least, until the necessary inline citations are added. I don't want to put these ugly [citation needed]. That is why, I mention here all the sentences and paragraphs needing citations:
  • "After completing state primary schools, Pacelli received his secondary, classical education at the Visconti Institute. In 1894, at the age of eighteen, he entered the Almo Capranica Seminary to begin study for the priesthood and enrolled at the Pontifical Gregorian University and the Appolinare Institute of Lateran University. From 1895-1896, he studied philosophy at University of Rome La Sapienza. In 1899, he received degrees in theology and in utroque jure (civil and canon law). At the seminary, he received a special dispensation to live at home for health reasons." A whole paragraph in "Early Life: uncitated.
  • "During World War I, Pacelli maintained the Vatican's registry of prisoners of war. In 1915, he travelled to Vienna to assist Monsignor Scapinelli—the apostolic nuncio to Vienna—in his negotiations with Franz Joseph I of Austria regarding Italy." Important information which are uncitated.
  • "As Cardinal Secretary of State, Pacelli signed concordats with many non-Communist states in an attempt to gain recognition for the four-year-old Vatican State, including concordats with Baden (1932), Austria (1933), Germany (1933), Yugoslavia (1935) and Portugal (1940). The Lateran treaties with Italy (1929) were concluded before Pacelli rose to the office of Secretariat. Such concordats allowed the Catholic Church to organize youth groups, make ecclesiastical appointments, run schools, hospitals, and charities, or even conduct religious services. They also ensured that canon law would be recognized within some spheres (e.g. church decrees of nullity in the area of marriage).
He also made many diplomatic visits throughout Europe and the Americas, including an extensive visit to the United States in 1936 where he met with Charles Coughlin and Franklin D. Roosevelt, who appointed a personal envoy—who did not require Senate confirmation—to the Holy See in December 1939, re-establishing a diplomatic tradition that had been broken since 1870 when the pope lost temporal power.
Pacelli presided as Papal Legate over the International Eucharistic Congress in Buenos Aires, Argentina on October 10-14, 1934, and in Budapest on May 25-30, 1938." Three uncitated paragraphs in "Cardinal Secretary of State and Camerlengo".
  • "but the opposition of Protestant and Socialist parties and the instability of governments thwarted this aim. In particular, the questions of denominational schools and pastoral work in the armed forces prevented any agreement on the national level, despite talks in the winter of 1932." Here we have uncitated assessments. Who says that the opposition of Protestant and Socialist parties and the instability of governments thwarted this aim?
  • "Adolf Hitler, appointed Chancellor on 30 January 1933, seeking to gain international respectability and to remove internal opposition by representatives of the Church and the Catholic Centre Party, sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman and former member of the Centre Party, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Cardinal Pacelli, his long-time associate Prelate Ludwig Kaas, the out-going chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated the draft of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20 July and ratified on September 10, 1933." A whole uncitated paragraph in "Reichskonkordat". And why is there a comma before appointed?!
  • "Pope Pius XII accepted the Rhythm Method as a moral form of family planning, although only in limited circumstances, in two speeches on October 29, 1951, and November 26, 1951. (These speeches were translated into English and published under the title Moral Questions Affecting Married Life.) Some had controversially interpreted Pope Pius XI's 1930 encyclical Casti Connubii to allow moral use of Rhythm, but these speeches by Pope Pius XII were the first explicit acceptance of any method of birth regulation aside from complete sexual abstinence. The Catholic Church's modern view on family planning was further developed in the 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI." Important theological comments which are uncitated. I donot say that they are original research, but, if they do not get citated, they will look like that.
  • The whole "Apostolic constitutions" sub-section is uncitated.
  • "Great Consistory" is another uncitated sub-section.
  • "As the war was approaching its end in 1945, Pius advocated a lenient policy by the Allied leaders in an effort to prevent what he perceived to be the mistakes made at the end of World War I." Another uncitated assessment. In so important assessments of a FA, citations are absolutely necessary! Somebody must support this assertion!
  • "Galeazzi-Lisi gained admittance as the pope lay dying and took photographs of Pius which he tried unsuccessfully to sell to some magazines, forcing him to resign as head of the Vatican medical services in the wake of massive public protests." Citation needed.
  • "Many Jews publicly thanked the pope for his help. For example, Pinchas Lapide, a Jewish theologian and Israeli diplomat to Milan in the 1960s, estimated that Pius "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000 but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." Some historians have questioned these figures. Dr. Raffael Cantoni, head of the Italian Jewish community’s wartime Jewish Assistance Committee, stated that "six million of my coreligionists have been murdered by the Nazis, but there could have been many more victims had it not been for the efficacious intervention of Pius XII." Moshe Sharett, later Israel’s second Prime Minister, met with Pius in the closing stages of the war and said, "I told [him] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews. . . . We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church." Golda Meir, Israel’s Foreign Minister, eulogized that "when fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims."" This whole paragraph in "Contemporary" section is full of uncitated quotes. This is totally inacceptable for a FA!
  • In totally uncitated sub-section "The Deputy", I quote: "Lichten labelled any criticism of the pope's actions during World War II as "a stupefying paradox" and said, "no one who reads the record of Pius XII's actions on behalf of Jews can subscribe to Hochhuth's accusation."" It is not enough that you mention the book. Since you quote, you should mention a page number as well.
  • "In 1999, John Cornwell's Hitler's Pope criticized Pius for not doing enough, or speaking out enough, against the Holocaust. Cornwell argues that Pius's entire career as the nuncio to Germany, cardinal secretary of state, and pope was characterized by a desire to increase and centralize the power of the Papacy, and that he subordinated opposition to the Nazis to that goal. He further argues that Pius was anti-Semitic and that this stance prevented him from caring about the European Jews." Again, in which page of his book does Cornwell say that? Convince me that you have really checked the source!
  • "The Commission discovered documents making it clear that Pius was aware of widespread anti-Jewish persecution in 1941 and 1942, and they suspected that the Church may have been influenced in not helping Jewish immigration by the nuncio of Chile and the Papal representative to Bolivia, who complained about the "invasion of the Jews" to their countries, where they engaged in "dishonest dealings, violence, immorality, and even disrespect for religion." (Questions 7 and 12 of the ICJHC report)" Another uncitated paragraph in "ICJHC" with important fndings, which are unreferenced.

The article is well-written, but in its current form it has serious referencing problems. It is inacceptable to have all these important assessments and facts uncitated in a FA level article. I hope they'll be soon properly sourced.--Yannismarou 13:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think I can address all of these rather quickly. I already took care of the early life paragraph. Most of these are implied references or issues where the same reference is used for multiple sentences. For some of these things adding a page number would be counter-productive. For example, the summary of Cornwell's book is ot a summary of a single page but of his entire argument! There's no point in citing the apostolic constitutions themselves just to give the jist and the year of publication, etc. savidan(talk) (e@) 15:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok! I'm sure the article will be soon fine.--Yannismarou 16:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed most of these. If you could strikethrough the one's in your previous post that have been addressed that would be helpful. savidan(talk) (e@) 02:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've done it. I also turned my vote into "neutral", until the remaining citations are added.--Yannismarou 10:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Status: Eight-odd fact requests were added by another user, "per FARC". Savidan, can you tackle those and maybe we can move to close this? Marskell 13:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was out of town this weekend, but I'll get right on finishing these. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With the exception of the three citation requests in the Reichskonkordat section (which str1977 has told me he'll take care of), the article should be fine. savidan(talk) (e@) 05:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Checking versus Yanni's list, "lenient", and the bit on Cornwell have cites, but "Apostolic constitutions", "Great Consistory", and "thwarted this aim" do not. Could you add a couple more Savidan? For instance, he´s one of a few modern popes to invoke papal infallibility. What is a "few" in this context? Inches away! Marskell 11:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
To provide some grammatical input: there is (or rather was) a comma before "appointed on January 30" because it is a non-defining relative clause, giving additional information about this Hitler fellow (for those who didn't know who this is). Str1977 (smile back) 14:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Apostolic Constitution section really shouldn't require a citation. For example, would you find citations in an article about a major author next to a list of his works and their publication dates? I think that the cites that Str1977 has added take care of the "twarted this aim." I'll look for a book that discusses the Great Consistory to add a cite there. As for papal infalibility, as it is a 19th century invention, that should be pretty obvious. But I can cite Pollard's discussion of that if you wish. savidan(talk) (e@) 15:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I posted a note on last point on the article talk. Marskell 00:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sex Pistols

Article is still a featured article

Review commentary

Message left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music. Sandy 02:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Promoted in brilliant prose days. Poor lead. Poor referencing; lots of citation needed tags (and more can be added). Abundant weasel words, POV, and original research. Not well written. Overuse of parentheses. I feel it should be moved to FARC quickly because I don't think it can be improved to FA quality in time. Punctured Bicycle 11:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I left a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Punk music. Oldelpaso 11:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)‎[reply]

Some work on referencing since the nom, but numerous cite tags and lack of inline citations, and issues above not addressed. Move to FARC. Sandy 02:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of inline citations are an issue (1. c. violation) with this article. Also, the inline citations there are need a vast cleanup so one knows who wrote the quoted article, who published it, its date of publication, ISBN (if a book source), the date an article was last accessed (if a web source) and so on. LuciferMorgan 16:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

About half of the requested citations have now been provided. At least some of them (the ones I added!) do meet the above criterion. I'll see what I can do about some of the rest. - Jmabel | Talk 02:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are LEAD (2A), referencing (1c), POV (1d), general copy issues (2). Marskell 04:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Here is a diff. Some work has been done on refs though ce'ing remains; Jmabel, keep us up-to-date. Marskell 04:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I feel the lead section is too small also. LuciferMorgan 17:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC) 17:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Remove The article is a carry-over from the brilliant prose days, so it has never been through a proper FA nomination. The writing quality is very poor. The article is not well-referenced; I've added many more citation needed tags. The lead is indeed too small. Does not exemplify Wikipedia's very best work. I think this article needs a complete rewrite. Punctured Bicycle 18:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Weak and reluctant remove. This article is quite bad and I see some inline citations, but they are insufficient.--Yannismarou 14:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: While there are, indeed, quite a few statements in this article that could use citation and lack it, I'm pretty confident that there is little or nothing that is inaccurate. But some of Punctured Bicycle's requests for citation raise questions of what citations are for. They seem to me to come from a stance that our writers are supposed have no judgment or discretion. For example:

  1. Do we really need a citation that Radio 1 dominated UK music broadcasting in 1977? This is something known to literally anyone vaguely familiar with the time and place. It may be possible to cite for, but at the time it was so obvious that no one necessarily bothered stating so overtly. It's like having to cite for the fact that the members of the band all breathed air.
  2. Of the Pistols' last UK gig (a benefit for the families of striking firemen) should we really need citation for "the gig was considered by some as a vindication of their anti-establishment stance when they were, for once, united with what might be viewed as their true constituency, the dispossessed British working class"?
  3. Even more so, should we really need a citation to refer to "the band's state of disintegration by this time", given that the band broke up three weeks later? Or for saying that The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle "was McLaren's fictionalised account on the band's history, claiming he controlled and manipulated the band from start to finish", which would be apparent to anyone with traces of a brain who had seen the film?

I believe we need to think long and hard about what we are actually trying to do here: not just in this article, but in Wikipedia. In my view, Wikipedia should not be some sort of game of trying to set new world records for level of citation. It should be about writing excellently written, accurate articles. It is entirely reasonable to ask for citations where someone with at least some knowledge of the topic has some doubts. It is wasteful of effort that could be better spent elsewhere to demand citations for the obvious at every turn. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. The request is really for "Coming at a time when deference to royalty was still a predominant trait in both the establishment and the country as a whole, it caused tremendous public outcry"
  2. Yes, of course we need a citation for that. Why wouldn't we?
  3. Now that I look at it I think the "disintegration" part should be broken out into its own sentence(s) and expanded upon, or just deleted and saved entirely for the "breakup of the band" section. The article makes a massive leap from Never Mind the Bollocks to "disintegration" of the band without any explanation. I agree that the film is self-evident and doesn't necessarily need a cite (the "controlled and manipulated" triggered the citation needed alarm).

I did not add the citation needed tags as part of a game. Inline citations are required of featured articles. I feel that the majority of my requests are reasonable. It is not obvious to me that Le Bomb was one of their potential names, that Bruce Foxton of The Jam accused them of plagiarism, that they held a secret tour in August 1977, that they are planning a Japanese tour in the near future, that "There is no future ... and England's dreaming" is a de facto position statement for British punk, that Rotten bluffed the breakup of the band, that Vicious was beaten by the bodyguards he hired, and so on. Punctured Bicycle 09:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The examples given in the last paragraph, I agree with you, need citations. - Jmabel | Talk 21:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Have resolved about 80% of Punctured Bicycle citation requests (good work there bike, btw), but a remaining section - "Influences and cultural legacy" - though crucial to the article, in it current form is purly orgional research, & POV. I can't cite that stuff, move that it's deleted, at least until rewritten. The whole article, while contaning an exhaustive & well detailed history of the band, is ridden with trivia and needs serious toning down, copy editing etc. I'll try, but i'm not the best copy editor, Coil00 23:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice effort. Just a remark: Inline citations go straight after the punctuation and without a gap without the punctuation and the citation. If you can't citate this section, write it for scratch with your own sources. This is my suggestion.--Yannismarou 17:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like this has now been pretty much brought in line with current standards. I would think that at this point the burden should be on those who think if falls short. - Jmabel | Talk 02:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • Second look subsequent to additional work done:
      • The references have been sufficiently expanded to encompass bibliographic information, but they use an inconsistent bibliographic style. That is not an objection, but it would help to clean them up, using a consistent style.
      • Are all of those External links good and reliable sources, or are any of them just adverts? Refer to WP:NOT and WP:EL.
      • Discography: what source does one use to confirm the #'s ?
        • I have an encyclopedia of music somewhere in my attic, it may have the postitions - will try and dig it out Coil00 22:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC). My attic does not contain the positions. - Coil00 21:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Is this OR? The lead should summarize the article, but I can't find further mention of this in the article. "While their English contemporaries such as The Clash were perhaps more politically motivated, The Damned more versatile, and Buzzcocks had more astute pop sensibilities, "
        • I had had the same thought and removed. The Pistols are more iconic than the Clash but I don't know if they've had "more recognition." In any case, personal judgements don't belong.
      • I can't determine a source for the entire incident in EMI and the Grundy, beginning with the sentence: "However, it was the band's behavior that gained them their first national exposure:" Since it includes "(ie, they had consumed a large amount of alcohol)", it seems to require a cite. The ie isn't good prose: if we are to retain this article as FA, considering it was promoted during the Brilliant Prose days, I'd feel better if Tony analyzed the prose.
      • Influences and cultural legacy seems like OR, and is uncited.
        • Note the internal link to "satire boom". "The Pistols communicated directly with a more vernacular audience" should be clear from the rest of the article. There are some cites lower down, though specific band mentions (Rancid, The Libertines, Black Rebel Motorcycle Club) should be cited along with Oasis. Marskell 16:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is just a cursory second look, to give some examples of concerns I still have: I can be convinced if Tony has a look at the prose and anything that looks ORish is referenced. Sandy 15:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't participated in this process a lot, but do I understand that we will remove it from being a featured article if even a single sentence has an issue in terms of citation? - Jmabel | Talk 06:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am a keep, pending a bit more work. I'm not a 100% on the writing yet, but I just made a couple of edits and will try and do more to make sure it's at 1a. It's comprehensive and moves at a nice pace without tangents or too much fan aggrandizement.
The sentence with the two cite requests in influences is syntactically very bad, and does indeed require sourcing. There are a couple of other spots that could also use a source, but they can probably be eliminated in a copy-edit. Taken in sum, this is sourced to about the degree we have expected of most. Marskell 10:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
During the repair work quite a lot of text had to been removed (including by myself), leaving the article quite uneven in places. Suggest that as well as the continuning copy edit, certain sections are expanded, esp. the lead. Also, looking through the edit history the article is fairly unstable and a magnet for trivia and cruft. If it does pass this review, it'll need close watching.
A lot more still needs to be done, and I'll vote keep, pending per Marskell above - Coil00 22:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Per your edit summary and comments here, hold is probably the best note. No harm if work is going on. Marskell 22:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Update I'm through my copyedit of the body. I'll give it one more read through, but I'm fairly satisfied on 1a. As noted by Coil, things had to be removed to avoid OR (this includes the bit that was bothering Sandy, which I just got rid of pending sourcing) but I don't think 1b has been compromised. This covers what it should cover. Two things:

The Never Mind the Bollocks section needs a sentence on critical reaction. The sentence re the stolen riff is tacked-on to the first paragraph and should be moved (which riff exactly?).

If anything exists in this regard, a sentence on the Royal Family's reaction to God Save the Queen would be interesting.

I'm going to wait for more comments before casting a final vote-like-comment. Marskell 16:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and this may be a Brit usage thing, but I removed spaced em dashes—I prefer them this way—as well as uses of single quotes for 'certain items' in the text. Marskell 16:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just had another look: the top part is much improved, but I started to find very trivial copyedit things towards the bottom of the article. Let me know when it's time for another look. Sandy 16:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Update: The page has had a flurry of activity today. I'll wait one more day and see if any new copy issues have been introduced. Marskell 18:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look tomorrow (the 8th) then. Sandy 21:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Very small thing: I won't remove 'single quotes' anymore; I'm deducing this is a Brit usage, and thus is not an error and should actually be followed for this British topic. (I don't think, before editing this page, I'd ever intentionally typed "whilst" anywhere, as another example :). Marskell 21:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Someone should put up a tutorial somewhere :-) Sandy 21:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
    • The lead is still short and unsatisfying. The second paragraph is like an island; none of the points are explained or expanded upon later in the article.
    • "Rotten and his circle of friends (coincidentally all also called John) adopted these accrutrements whilst already possessed of a similar style—a grungy version of the 'soul boy' fashion affected by fans of Roxy Music." This sentence is a mess. The parenthetical trivia should be removed. Accrutrements is not a word. The sentence is overly complex and pretentious, and the common reader probably would not understand it. Personally I have no idea what it is trying to say.
    • "'Anarchy in the U.K.' . . . served as a statement of intent—full of wit, anger and visceral energy." This sentence has no citation to support its claims. It is also needs to be stripped of its romantic tone.
    • "Despite a common misconception that punk bands 'couldn't play', contemporary music press reviews and live recordings reveal the Pistols to have been a tight, competent, musically professional and ferocious live band." One author's view is cited; either identify the author, or find and synthesize multiple sources if you want to generalize. However, I read the cited article and couldn't find evidence in support of the sentence anyways.
    • Gig to mean "concert" is slang/colloquial. This is a formal encyclopedia.
    • Shambolic is slang.
    • The use of sic is distracting and unnecessary.
    • "Always washing his feet". Is this an idiom or is it literal? In any case the potential confusion leads me to believe it should be removed.
    • "... although he later claimed to have been bluffing." Citation?
    • "The sale was criticised by critics as a 'sell out'." Again, this is one author's view; identify or synthesize. "Criticised by critics" is an awkward phrasing.
    • The influence/legacy section remains very weak and requires revision and expansion. "The Sex Pistols remain influential, both for their musical style and in terms of their effect on the British cultural landscape. The Pistols communicated directly with a vernacular audience." A quote where Lydon expresses the band's aims is entirely insufficient for backing up the preceding claims, which are quite bold. Many secondary sources are available—both on the Sex Pistols and on punk music in general (which surely would discuss the Sex Pistols' influence)—why are they not being used? The lead stated "They are widely credited with creating both the UK punk revolution and the first generation gap within rock 'n' roll." This is not clearly elicited anywhere in this section. Rancid, The Libertines, Black Rebel Motorcycle Club—these are the strongest examples?
    • WP:FA: "'Well written' means that the prose is compelling, even brilliant." In general I don't find this to be the case. Punctured Bicycle 03:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC) Punctured Bicycle 20:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am a keep, finally. I'm still going to scour it for typos, as work has just been done, but this meets 1a IMO. I have changed a few things per Punctured's suggestions: "generation gap" dropped because not mentioned later; "accrutrements" was a typo (should be "accoutrements") but changed to "apparel"; shambolic --> chaotic. Not sure about some of the complaints, though. "The use of sic is distracting and unnecessary." Why?
Re the lead: given repeated attempts to rm OR, it became shorter and shorter. I've added a paragraph detailing a few important points from the body. Coil and I discussed changing it further, so it can be beefed up but I think is fine as it stands. Marskell 08:01, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Don't use sic to show off with gotchas. Too many writers sic sics on the authors they quote just to show they spotted a trivial error. If your audience is unlikely to be confused, don't draw attention to minor booboos."[1] Punctured Bicycle 08:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a minor booboo in that when people notice they me be prompted to go to the link to find out where the error lies, which is a waste of time, or they might "fix" the sentence, which we shouldn't do with a direct quote. Sics are trivial when dealing with a quoted prose paragraph, but non-trivial when dealing with a direct quote, IMO. Marskell 08:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
They may check the source in futility, and they may unwittingly "correct" it. But it is much more likely that the error would simply go unnoticed if the sic was absent. Moreover, this is not a strict error (as in spelling and factual errors), it is just poor grammar; we are not in a position to police others' grammar. If you really are worried about editors inadvertently changing it, then put a note in an HTML comment (though I'd say the possibility of editors adding penises to the article is of greater concern). Punctured Bicycle 09:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: By now all of the issues leading to this review have been addressed and resolved. This is a comprehensive, fully cited, factually accurate, and neutral article. IMO it is also well written, and meets FA criteria. Coil00 12:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment
    • Article says "The tour proved exhausting, badly-planned, and dispiriting. Over the course of the two-week tour Vicious . . . was beaten by the bodyguards hired to protect him, Rotten suffered a severe head cold, and the band's performances were plagued by bad sound and physically hostile audiences." The source cited does not support these claims at all. On a side note, the source paints a picture of the band's stage personality that this article, unfortunately, only hints at vaguely: "The sold-out 2,200 seat hall witnessed Sid Vicious clobber an aggressive cowpoke with his bass . . . The next show was in Baton Rouge, where Vicious got a simulated blowjob onstage from an enthusiastic Southern belle . . . They pogo'd, spit all over the stage and on each other, threw umbrellas, fruits, coins, eyeglasses, sweaters, coats, shoes, socks, tampax, a brussel sprout, scarves, chains, plastic guns"
      • I can't really find that either. There's certainly plenty of "colour" that can be found and cited otherwise.
    • Article says "Inspired by the performance, many of the attendees formed groups of their own, popularising punk music throughout the British Isles." The source cited concerns only Joy Division.
      • Subsequent sources: the Clash source mentions the Clash in relation to Pistols in the second sentence; the Siouxsie & The Banshees sources mentions the relation in the fourth sentence; the Fall relation comes in the 13th paragraph but does specifically mention a Pistols show. This does not rise to remove, though "many of the attendees formed groups of their own" should be removed and the two paras compressed.
        • What about the bold claim "popularising punk music throughout the British Isles"? Perhaps when the two paragraphs are combined it will become more apparent how incomplete the influences section is. (80% of it will be devoted to the Lesser Free Trade Hall performance. That's it? That's all we can say about their influence?)
    • Article says "After the end of the 'Anarchy Tour' in December 1976, EMI decided it was too dangerous for the Sex Pistols to play live in the UK and arranged a series of concerts in Amsterdam for early January 1977." The source cited says nothing about EMI deciding it was too dangerous for the Sex Pistols to play live in the UK.
      • No, it does not (but see 15).
        • ??? 15 is what I was looking at.
    • "Most of the bass parts on the band's later recordings were played by either Jones or Matlock, who, according to Lydon, had been redrafted as a session musician." Which of them was redrafted? Why is this "according to Lydon"?
      • Matlock, apparently, as a previous version stated. This was compressed. I'm sure Coil can cite it.
        • The point is, it's worded ambiguously, and it isn't necessary to use "according to" for seemingly uncontroversial claims.
    • "A&M dumped the Pistols" Dumped? Is that formal writing?
      • Seems an OK verb to me, in this context.
    • Why is Nancy Spungen not mentioned or explained until her death?
      • Because the blue link is there.
        • From what I've gathered Nancy was a significant influence (perhaps only negatively) on Vicious and the band itself. I'm not saying we should detail everything about her. I'm saying that Nancy must be introduced and explained earlier in the article, not just tacked on at the end: "Oh, by the way, Sid had a girlfriend named Nancy who died."
    • Why is the Bromley Contingent never explained?
      • Because the blue link is there.
        • They were the Sex Pistols' entourage. How is it that they are so tangential that they don't deserve any real estate in the article? And by real estate, I mean perhaps a sentence or two. The article picks them out of thin air without explaining who they were and how they came to be associated with the Sex Pistols.
    • "Following bad publicity from an incident at Heathrow Airport during their return, EMI finally had had enough and released the band from their contract." What is the nature of this incident?
      • 15 explains this.
        • Wikipedia doesn't.
    • The article says "Though matters took an uglier turn when young punk followers of the Sex Pistols became victims of physical attacks in the street by 'pro-royalists'. Rotten himself was assaulted by a razor-wielding gang of 'Teddy Boys' outside the Islington Pegasus pub (a music venue at the time)." The actual source says "Meanwhile, during a break from their recording sessions: Johnny Rotten, Chris Thomas (producer) and Bill Price (studio boss) are attacked outside the Pegasus pub. Johnny has his arm slashed open and suffers tendon damage." Besides the obvious incongruity between the article and the source, it seems that the boat incident and pub incident are not even connected (as the Wikipedia article implies). Punctured Bicycle 23:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • The attack(s) on Rotton are well-attested. We need something specific to "Teddy Boys" that I can't find.
Most of the concerns are minor but there are a couple of major things, particularly how to present 1. There's ample sources for the general screw-up of the tour, but perhaps we should not present examples, lest we highlight "this" at the expense of "that." Marskell 00:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
(Replied to some above.) Some can be considered minor, but we shouldn't downplay their importance; collectively they amount to a great concern. Then there are the concerns which are great in their own right. The sourcing concerns, where claims don't even correspond to the source, are an obvious example. Comprehensiveness is another big one; the influences section is wholly incomplete, the article is vague about the band's stage personality or personality in general, the premises upon which they formed the band (their influences, their rejection of progressive rock) are never explained, Nancy and the Bromley Contingent are never explained. The writing quality is another big issue, though some seem to find it acceptable. It is difficult to explain what is wrong with the writing. Here's a random example from the lead: "They released just a single studio album", which should be "They released one studio album". Then there is a sentence like, "Over the course of the two-week tour Vicious, by now chronically addicted to heroin, was beaten by the bodyguards hired to protect him, Rotten suffered a severe head cold, and the band's performances were plagued by bad sound and physically hostile audiences," which needs to be broken down. Some paragraphs do not order the sentences logically. An example of this is the paragraph concerning the Grundy incident; it goes 1. aftermath 2. actual incident 3. things prior to incident 4. aftermath. The lead is another example of this. One's attention should not be limited to these examples; the writing quality overall isn't "compelling, even brilliant". In general it's boring and vague. The article has obviously improved greatly since the nomination started, but the question is not whether it has improved, the question is whether it is FA quality. To me the answer is no. The complacency towards this article in light of the problems is strange; if it were to actually go through WP:FAC, which it never has, I think it would be judged differently. Punctured Bicycle 02:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Complacent is just not fair. Given that you nominated, you know that this was the version to begin with. When logged in and looking at it, Coil has quickly responded to most every request. I'll admit that trusting sources often means trusting other users; in this case I do, because where I have followed them/searched myself they've seemed fine. Sourcing errors can be like typos: editing on top of someone else's edit can cause the mistake. Let's bear in mind {{sofixit}}.
In no particular order:
  • Wikipedia doesn't explain what happened at Heathrow. Should it? We write summary style here and we've already got one mention of a band member vomiting :).
  • For the example para I would suggest: 1) topic sentence 2) important points (the actual cussing) 3) lesser points (they were replacing Queen) 4) aftermath. This is an appropriate inverted pyramid, IMO.
  • The "influences" section was deliberately pared down to have precise mentions of bands that have been influenced by them. This is just presenting a catch-22: vague ORish section, no; focused section, no. Also, do see the end of the "Never mind the Bollocks" first para: "It is commonly regarded as one of the most influential rock albums of the last 40 years, and has been described as 'simply one of the greatest, most inspiring rock records of all time'."
  • On Spungen: the fact that she is not described at length, was one of the first pluses I had noticed in this article. The bluelink comment was not meant to be glib; if you want to read about Nancy Spungen, go to her article. From there, "Vicious' emotional dependence on her is said to have interfered with the Sex Pistols' performances and contributed to the band's breakup during their US tour" could be added here, if sourced (though it seems to me they broke up because everyone had come to detest Rotten).
  • On the intro: if you believe other examples belong, suggest them, but I feel these are roughly the most major. God Save the Queen absolutely should be there.
  • I removed "dangerous" as a possible OR inference. Various physical assaults and other things (e.g., a police raid on Rotten's apartment) can be sourced if we want details; there's obviously been a lot of myth-making re violence associated with the band but there was, evidently, violence associated with the band.
  • Bromley contingent: we have "the group and their close circle of followers," and earlier "the [fashion] trend quickly spread, and was adopted by the group's followers." We can move the link up, if you like.
  • That you find the writing "boring and vague" is not actionable.
  • On an earlier point, I added another review to back up the competent playing bit. It's from Rolling Stone, 1977--actually a great read.
  • I agree we should have a sentence or two on the "rejectionism"; in fact, I can probably use the source just mentioned to do it. Marskell 11:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Coil suggested we hold this again. I don't see why not, as the rule of thumb is "obvious momentum", which this has (there were additions to the influence section tonight and some more edits in general). I do believe this is generally within criteria, but Punctured has some actionable points above which should be addressed. One more week? Marskell 23:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whew. I wanted to spend time in it, but need a clear head and a fresh mind. Sandy 23:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Transit of Venus

Review commentary

Messages left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomy and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomical objects. Sandy 17:33, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are very few references: apart from a couple of in-line links, there is only one reference for the whole article - and that is a single page from a publication. Hard to believe that the entire article's information is referenced within that one page. These reference styles are inconsistent in any case.

There is choppy, unprofessional language used through the article. ("the transits of 2004 and 2012 last about six hours"). What tense is this supposed to be written in?

This article looks interesting on the surface, and I'd like to see it remain Featured - but it needs to be cleaned up a bit by someone who knows the subject well enough, and is able to obtain more references. EuroSong talk 16:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status? Four edits since nom, some refs added by Pagrashtak, (diff), still lacking inline citations, move to FARC. Sandy 01:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are prose and inline citations. Joelito (talk) 15:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove Lacks inline citations (1. c.). LuciferMorgan 17:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong remove.Neutral..Keep Very very very poor references-not a thoroughly researched article. AALmost no inline citations. Three sections are stubby and full of one-sentence paragraphs. Section "Transits of Venus in popular culture" is like a trivia section-it should be turned into prose.--Yannismarou 14:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'm starting work on this, but in addition to the citation problems it is currently not comprehensive: there is no discussion of the contact phases other than in a brief aside. It's not necessary to devote vasts amounts of text to this, but it should be mentioned. I suspect it is thoroughly researched though, just not referenced - you don't pull the exact details of the transits out of the air. Yomanganitalk 23:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I've rewritten this and given inline citations. The scientific interest and observing sections have been almost completely reworked and the popular culture section has been dropped (as most of it wasn't popular culture, and what there was could be worked into the text) and replaced with an ancient history section. I think it could remain an FA now, but constructive criticism is welcomed. Yomanganitalk 19:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wow, another fine save job. The referencing is thorough, I'm leaning towards keep after we hear from other editors who know the territory. Sandy 01:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Nice referencing work. I turn my vote into neutral per Sandy.--Yannismarou 14:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same as above. I feel a few more refs wouldn't do the article any harm, though even if this action isn't taken I still feel it would be enough to say 'Remove'. So, I change my vote to neutral (can't remember if I've ever gone for this vote). LuciferMorgan 16:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Keep It's a lot better now, thanks to the hard work of Yomangani. However, I'm still not sure if it feels like a Featured Article to me. There are things missing: for example, it is mentioned that the current pattern of 105.5, 8, 121.5 and 8 years is not the only pattern possible; and examples are given of other patterns. However, no explanation is provided as to why these patterns change. In other places, the style is inconsistent (first paragraph of "Grazing and simultaneous transits"): dates are not Wikified (they're given in exclusively American style). This paragraph is also unreferenced. As I say, the whole thing is much improved: but still needs work. EuroSong talk 12:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed the points you raised (Can't believe I failed to cite that paragraph - I've slapped myself, so it won't happen again) Yomanganitalk 14:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Great work, thanks :) I now switched from "Comment" to "Keep". EuroSong talk 08:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: More fantastic work from Yomangani. Some thoughts:

  • "Before modern astronomy, observations of transits of Venus helped scientists using the parallax method calculate the distance between the Sun and the Earth." Would we call them scientists "before modern astronomy"? The people mentioned later as doing initial work on the topic, Kepler and a Mr. Jeremiah Horrocks, are both post-Copernican, and "before modern astronomy" doesn't well describe them. Or is that sentence in the intro meant to refer to still earlier work?
  • This leads to thoughts on sectioning. I think "Ancient history" should be moved up immediately before "Scientific interest in transits". Rename the latter—perhaps "Modern research". They might both then be moved under one level two ("Research and observation"?). "Grazing and simultaneous transits" should then be bumped above "Observing", the latter becoming the last section. Sectioning in general is, of course, partly open to interpretation. But this one doesn't seem right.
  • Given the rarity of the event, surely the 2004 transit produced research papers. A small section on that would be fine.
  • "A transit of Venus should be observed only with proper precautions" and following in the intro. The shift to a prescriptive tone does not have the right feel. Tweak it to a neutral description of how observing occus (e.g., avoid "should").

This obviously well on its way to a keep. Kudos again. Marskell 16:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't that happy with the layout either, but since nobody raised it I didn't want to play around with it - I will now though (and take care of the copyediting). With regard to the issue of the 2004 transit - it has its own article and I think that level of detail probably belongs in there (it isn't actually in there, but it should be), what do you think? Yomanganitalk 17:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I will move to a keep as I think this is now within criteria. Re 2004, I think five or so sentences as a level three under past and future would be in order, particularly if it's not in the sub-article and should be; a sentence or two on what to expect for the next one would be fine too. Might see what can be found here. Marskell 21:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mary II of England

Article is still a featured article

Review commentary

Messages left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography/to do, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography/Royalty, and Wikipedia talk:UK Wikipedians' notice board. Sandy 16:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article has one reference to the 1911 Encyclopedia, a website, and no inline citations. Also, it may be uncomprehensive, but that is a more minor point since I am not familiar with the topic. Judgesurreal777 07:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Criterion 1. c. which asks for inline citations, references and so on isn't met by this article. This needs to be addressed. LuciferMorgan 15:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll take a look this weekend at my references to add appropriate cites and references. As for comprehenive, remember that she only "ruled" for five or so years and even that was as a figurehead. --mav 22:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status? Two weeks, still no inline cites, move to FARC. Sandy 16:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are comprehensiveness and inline citations. Joelito (talk) 16:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are doing a nice job. If you find quite swiftly the material you want, Ok. The article needs some more inline citations (some paragraphs have no inline citations) and definitely some more sources. Britannica and one more source do not constitute the adequate number of references. If you don't have the necessary time, you can work on the article with you own pace and renominate it for FA.--Yannismarou 14:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nice work so far: I'm willing to wait. On a separate note, I am discouraged when reviewers vote to Remove for lack of inline citations when the FARC period is just beginning: it might be helpful to not accumulate Remove votes until we're certain no one is going to do the work - perhaps at least a week into the FARC. Sandy 15:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've finished citing sources and added what detail was missing (turns out she wasn't that exciting as queens go). I wasn't intending to relist the cited sources in the references section as Yannismarou seems to be suggesting (maybe I've misunderstood?), as this seems a bit redundant, but I can do it if it is some requirement or style pointer I've so far missed. I suppose I should point out that I've noticed the connected article, William III, is an FA and suffers the same problems as this one, so probably needs listing on FAR at some point. Yomanganitalk 01:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No more just the shark guy, huh ? :-) I've left notes for other reviewers to have a new look (Yannismarou is already aware, so didn't leave a note for him/her). There's a long list of these articles that need cites: you can find it on the WP:FAR talk page. <grin> I'll have a look at this article tomorrow, and cast my vote. Sandy 03:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just about keep. Good summary style and an engaging read. Refs seem solid now--well done.

One thing: can we clarify the difference between the Scottish and Anglo-Irish thrones? The second sentence in the intro has a singular subject despite two thrones being mentioned in the first. We don't need a lengthy explanation in the intro; just a brief clause and then an inline note explaining it. I don't want to give the impression that the thrones were conterminous during her reign (not so until 1707, AFAIK), so when the difference in dates is arrived at in the body, add one more sentence making this clear. Marskell 07:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully made that clear now - I've added a paragraph on the first Jacobite uprising too, to emphasise the point without sledgehammering it. Yomanganitalk 11:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I disagree with Sandy about the Remove votes. If somebody is working and does a good job, a Remove vote can change. And I'm always closely watching my votes! On the contrary, a quick Remove vote constitutes an incentive for somebody to work. After all, the vote period is the last one after a long period of review. If somebody has started working during this period, we see that, we respect and we don't cast remove votes. It is as easy as that. If nobody works and nobody votes, then this might be a counter-incentive for the improvement of the article. Now, as far as this article is concerned, I donot feel ready to remove my Remove vote:
  • "Nenner, Howard (1998). The Right to be King: the Succession to the Crown of England, 1603-1714" Is this a printed source? If yes, why don't you mention the page as you should? And why don't you place it in the references as well (all sources of the inline citations should be found in references).
  • "G. Burnet (1833). History of my own Time." No page mentioned. Not listed in references.
  • " Brewer, E. Cobham (1898). Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. Henry Altemus." No page mentioned. Not listed in references.
  • In references, I still see only one printed source. I respect on-line sources, but I believe that for this particular personality printed sources are abundant. If you add pages in the printed sources in "Citations" and then include this sources in "References", I'll reconsider this objection of mine.
  • And, by the way, let's stay on the inline citations. Most of them are not scientific works nor inline articles, but biographies; one or two are from Britanica or Columbia, but most of them are short and unsigned texts. That is why, I regard more printed sources (suitably citated and referenced) as necessary.--Yannismarou 18:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point about the page numbers, I'm always forgetting to write them down - I'll look at those again. Not sure about the duplication of the cited sources in the notes and references sections though. As I said earlier, this seems somewhat redundant, and I don't see anything in the manual of style about it, so unless you can point me to the appropriate page, I'm not going to do that (to be honest, I'm unlikely to do it even if you do point to the page...life's too short). Yomanganitalk 19:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Since there were only two sources listed in the references section and both were already listed in the Notes section, I just removed the old references section and renamed the Notes section to "References". That's ok, right?Maintain 05:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's ok. Waiting for the page numbers. Yomangani must understand that when he keeps two sections ("Citations" and "References") what he regards as redundant is necessary. Now, it is better, although I prefer to see both "Citations" and "References", because this structure serves better the checking of the sources and is closer to the structure of most scholar researches and articles (you, usually, don't find a scholar article with inline citations, but without references). But, I guess this is a personal taste that I apply in the articles I write and not a rule of WIkipedia - not yet at least! I'll be ok with the page numbers.--Yannismarou 07:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Page numbers are now present (and the abortive attempt to refer to a quote from another source using the cite template somewhat corrected). "References" were kept for historical reasons - the two works there were the original references, so covered more than the corresponding inline citations, but since the citations now cover any material that these would have covered previously, I don't have an objection to the removal of the section. We'll agree to disagree over the references/inline citations - we can fight it out over at the Manual of Style sometime. Yomanganitalk 08:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Yomangani's additions satisfy my concerns on the two thrones. Good work.
Re "I regard more printed sources (suitably citated and referenced) as necessary", from Yanni: I regard them as preferable but not as necessary to uphold status. The criteria do not demand them, though individually reviewers may encourage their use. The nature of the Wiki-beast tends toward on-line sources, which, if reliable, should be acceptable. I would like to see this travel site and this site replaced, though. Marskell 09:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point. I won't get rid of them, but I will provide other sources for the statements they currently cite. Yomanganitalk 10:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Done, although the additional citations are from the current EB - I'll probably come back and change those later (both are bound to be in McCauley's History of England which I don't have here) Yomanganitalk 14:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Issues addressed, article cited, nice work. Sandy 13:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Maintain, my remark had to do with the previous status, when the references had almost no sources and the sources mentioned in "Notes" were without pages. Right now I know I cannot object, although I've proposed to raise the demands concerning sources of FAs. As it is now the status quo, I already know and you are absolutely right about the distinction between "necessary" and "preferable". I believe this must change, but for now I am obliged to vote keep. Yannismarou 19:19, 21 September 2006 UTC}}

Ziad Jarrah

Article is still a featured article

Review commentary

Messages left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Terrorism and Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/to do. Sandy 22:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While this was considered quality work back when it was declared a featured article back in 2004, two years later, it no longer meets the standards. While there are probably more problems, the two most pressing issues involve images and citations. There are too many photographs of him — they're claimed as fair use and they lack rationales. I don't want to add rationales until we figure out which images to keep. As for the citation, there are zero inline citations. We should get to work on getting this article to current standards. —this is messedrocker (talk) 22:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather see the images saved and the FA status removed, than vice versa - given his personal prominence, but I agree wholeheartedly with you about the need to fix up inline citations. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 02:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily saying that the FA status should be removed, and that the images should go away. What I mean to say is that we should upgrade this article to current standards and see if we really need all these pictures (if we do, that's fine). —this is messedrocker (talk) 06:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like the article has inline citations, they are just formatted as embedded external links. I agree that there are too many fair use images. Of these four images: Image:Young jarrah.jpg, Image:07-hijackers-inside.jpg, Image:Jarrah-2000-Flying-Florida.jpg, Image:Ziad-Gym-ePass.jpg, only one is needed. The others don't add anything new to validate a fair use claim. Pagrashtak 18:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Refs converted, but there aren't many. Sandy 22:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to agree: do the contributors still care about it?
Could do with a run-through to fix awkward expressions like: "He got pulled over ..." (space missing, too); "After looking in several countries,.." and many more. Consistently abbreviate "United States"? Tony 05:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I agree that it needs to be cited inline. I wrote most of the article, but it was a while ago, and I would need to go through my sources to determine what came from where. (90% of it came from the 9/11 report.) I don't know that all the images are necessary, strictly speaking, but I'm not sure they should be removed. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 02:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are images (3) and citations (1c). Marskell 15:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove Still lacking inline citations. Sandy 10:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC) Strike, now referenced. Sandy 17:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was asked to take a second look. I can take a closer look when I'm home next week, but the first cite I encounter is:
      • The Wall Street Journal, 9/18/2001
    • which is not adequate. Is there an article name, author, etc? It appears that more work on citations is needed, and several of the citations are only URLs. Sandy 18:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just added that source today. Unfortunately, that's all I know, and I can't get to the WSJ achives online. I'll go to my library Monday. I went thru the microfiche at the library and corrected that reference. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 23:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • The inline citations look better, although some of them need to be expanded (I can find time to do that later today). But, I concur with Tony (see below), and think the prose needs some polishing. Perhaps you can enlist a good copy editor? Sandy 13:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Not sure what this footnote refers to: Longman, 2002, pp. 101-02 Sandy 15:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Good catch. That was a follow-up ref to an earlier full-ref that was deleted. I fixed it now. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 16:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
              • You're doing great work. I'm not as good at analyzing prose problems as Tony and others, but here are some random samples I have a hard time with (there's more, these are samples):
                • (The four "to clauses" are hard to get through): In the spring of 1996, Jarrah moved to Germany with his cousin Salim to take a course in German at the University of Greifswald to receive a certificate needed for foreigners who do not speak German to study in Germany.
                • (The passive voice here is hard): Jarrah is claimed to have become an associate of the Hamburg cell, although he is not known to have ever lived with the others, and cannot be confirmed to have known them at this time.
                • (Passive voice and redundancies): In late 1999, Jarrah, Mohammed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Said Bahaji, and Ramzi Binalshibh decided to travel(ed) to Chechnya to fight against the Russians. They were convinced by Khalid al-Masri and Mohamedou Ould Slahi (convinced them) at the last minute to change their plans, and instead traveled to Afghanistan to meet with Osama bin Laden and train for terrorist attacks.
              • There are issues like this throughout; the article would be in very fine shape now with a thorough copyedit. Sandy 17:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for finding these. They have been fixed. – Quadell (talk) (random) 14:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

* Remove Even after the FAR, there doesn't seem to be much progress on cleaning it up per current standards. —this is messedrocker (talk) 19:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • If not already clear, this should be kept open a bit even if already passed deadline. I've started a bit of ce'ing myself (there are two fact requests now) and I don't see why this can't keep status with a bit more work. Marskell 19:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status I will close this as keep as soon as the objections (which seem to be satisifed) are striken. Joelito (talk) 16:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that, laborious as it might be, individual citations from the 9/11 report should be placed in the article; we should not have to rely on a blanket "unsourced statements are from X." At the same time, numerous other sources have been dug up and I think there are no serious copy issues. A weak keep I suppose, but a keep nonetheless. Marskell 18:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Featured article review/Omnipotence paradox

The Adventures of Tintin

previous FAR (12:09, 3 October 2008)

Bob Dylan

Article is still a featured article.

I am not sure whether this article was ever properly added to the list of featured articles; it was added at a point when the designation process was in transition, and I can't tell whether the appropriate consensus was ever reached. The record is very messy (at least to this user).

In any event, after it was designated an FA, the article was slowly but steadily rewritten, and very little of the original substance remained this spring. At that point, I was tangled up in a nasty edit war over revisions I'd made; the opposing editor argued mainly that the FA tag should itself bar the sort of revisions I'd made. That's a simplification, of course; if you enjoy wading through invective, you can read the talk page for details. The dispute was never really resolved by consensus; instead, after his position gained virtually no immediate support, the opposing editor withdrew.

Since that time, there's been very little substantive editing on the page. I've continued to clean out inappropriate material -- laundry lists of greatest songs, comments about ignored masterpieces, etc. But the article needs more work and more contributors, and I think the FA tag is inhibiting revisions (not to mention the effect of the nasty edit war). Besides, I've now written the bulk of the substantive text as it stands, and if I don't think it's good enough, you shouldn't either. [Insert emoticon to indicate that last line is spoken in sort of a Foghorn Leghorn voice.]

Formally: the article does not meet criterion one, as it is far from the best work available. Compare it to featured articles on other great American musicians, like the FA on Miles Davis. It does not meet criterion two, since it is not comprehensive. While I think my revisions to the early sections of the article strike a reasonable balance between the comprehensive and the concise, the later sections, from the beginning of Dylan's "gospel period" on, are sketchy, haphazard, and leave large gaps in their depiction of Dylan's career.

Monicasdude 18:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy Remove it has never even been through the proper FAC process!!!Borisblue 04:17, 16 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove. Ok I've had my breather. But don't worry, I won't be around much at all and I won't be touching this article. In reality, Bob Dylan went through a completely normal, well-attended FAC process and passed, deservedly (props GWO, wherever you are), by a wide margin. Monicasdude insists that version was substandard and compared unfavorably to articles like Miles Davis and Louis Armstrong. In this he's basically a monovoice, but his dogged devotion to his own (mis)judgments leaves all others by the wayside. I vote for Remove now because he has eviscerated the article beyond recognition. It is now a turgid emotionless read and only the appearance of an equally dogged antimonicasdude could bring it back toward FA quality. If such a being exists please step it up and go. If nothing else it will be a funny scene. JDG 20:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove. While the edit war is unfortunate, the bigger problem is the article is entirely full of editorial opinion, with no use of sources and no citation that I could see. Throughout the article there are comments to the effect of his play is improving, his greatest song, etc. 50% of the article is opinion about the guy or his works and the rest is facts with no sources to back them up. - Taxman Talk 13:12, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
While I agree with your ultimate verdict I couldn't disagree more with your reasons for it. Trying to make 'Arts and Entertainment' topics as dry and factual as Sci/Tech articles is just wrongheaded, and you confuse statements about the listening public's POV with the writer's own POV (as does Monicasdude to an egregious extent). But yes, sources should be cited far more, both inline and in References. It won't happen while MDude is the lead editor since he impresses himself as an unimpeachable source. JDG 17:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retain I have no personal axe to grind since my contributions to this article are very minor. But I think it's a good account of a compex career - which can still be improved upon. I just read the FA on Miles Davis as a comparison and while the Davis article is good, I don't think it's on a much higher critical plane. Mick gold 18:11, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retain it's a good article and there are plans to return the article to the form it was in when it was added in the first place, also how could the articl have been added with out the proper steps taken? (penguinsforever, August 10, 2005)
  • Retain - It is a long article, very detailed, seems to be very factually accurate. removing an article from featured because it was nominated under a different system than the current policy is ...stupid. SECProto 14:53, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
  • Retain I've also made only recent and very small contributions to this article. But overall, it seems pretty comprehensive and well written. There seems to be some unnecessary rancor between Monicasdude and JDG over the edit history; but none of the changes have seemed particularly unreasonable. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 19:20, 2005 August 12 (UTC)
  • Retain the article is still very good and comprehensive(spelling?). Besides, Dylan kicks ass.

Order of the Bath

Article is still a featured article
Message left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Peerage. Sandy 16:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No inline citations and images have obsolete licencing tags. Jay32183 02:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Criterion 2. c. which asks for inline citations, references and so on isn't met by this article. This needs to be addressed. LuciferMorgan 15:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed the lack of citations myself when I was fixing up some of the Order of the Bath categories in the last week or two. I'll try and deal with this, although it might take me a week or two to get to the library to check sources Dr pda 13:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's good, I'd rather see this brought up to par than demoted. Will you also be fixing the image problems? The public domain images only need their tags updated, but one image is marked "non-commercial only", so that must be dealt with. Jay32183 14:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I'll do that as well. I think I've found a replacement for the non-commercial only image. Dr pda 19:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone through and added inline cites to the whole article, and put {{fact}} tags in the places I need to double check, or find a reference. I've also significantly expanded the history section, but the text will need polishing in places, and may need rearranging. I'll come back to this article at the weekend, when I can get to the library to check references. I'll try and do the images then too. Feel free to copyedit in the meantime :) --Dr pda 00:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status? At two weeks, excellent progress on citations by Dr pda, but still not fully cited: move to FARC just to keep things moving? Sandy 16:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The guidelines say that the nomination can last more than two weeks if changes are ongoing; since the only issues raised so far are inline citations and image tags, both of which I hope to deal with this weekend, I suggest leaving it at FAR until then. Dr pda 17:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article is now fully cited (92 cites not counting duplicates!). I've also replaced the images whose licensing was in question and added other images relevant to the article. Thus all (both) the issues raised have been addressed. As an added bonus a substantial amount of information has been added to the article improving its comprehensiveness. A fresh pair of eyes to look over the prose would be welcome. Hopefully we can close the FAR without needing to take it to FARC. Dr pda 01:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am completely satisfied on the images. The only comment on the referencing would be that the web site references aren't using the cite web template, but that should be an easy fix compared to all the other work you've done. Jay32183 01:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There were only three of them, so I went ahead and did it myself. So I am now satisfied with the citations and references. I would double check the prose but I am only familiar with AmE, which this article is not supposed to be written in. But I'm pretty sure the article no longer fails the Feature Article criteria. Jay32183 02:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of questions (I didn't have time to peruse the entire article): why are Categories listed in See also? I've never seen that before: can't they just be changed to Categories, at the bottom of the page as usual? Also, can you make separate sections for Notes and References? It took me a while to find the references for your footnotes (I don't believe WP:GTL requires this, but it does make them easier to find). Also, where would a person who doesn't know the subject area (like myself) locate the Statutes? Sandy 05:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The notes and references are now separate sections. The categories are in See Also because they are the equivalent of "List of people who have been made Knight Grand Cross" etc. I've added a sentence to the start of this section to make it clearer. (And before someone asks, the List of Knights Companion of the Order of the Bath is a special case, presumably because the number of people ever appointed as such (between 1725 and 1815) was relatively small, and will never change). The copies of the Statutes I used were in the library, however this was the Bodleian Library at the University of Oxford, which I rather imagine is a special case. I don't know how easy it is to find them otherwise, although I notice the article on de quotes them as a reference, and a quick search shows the Library of Congress has a copy from 1744. They were printed/bound as regular books, and I guess a copy is given to new members, so copies may have been donated to libraries on their decease (from the accession dates I think this is where some of the Bodleian copies come from). If I recall correctly the statutes of the time were reprinted in Nicolas's book. Also, the copy of Anstis's Observations I used included the 1725 statutes. Dr pda 14:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Status: Assuming these few formatting concerns from Sandy can be addressed, I see no reason not to close this successfully, without the FARC period. Marskell 13:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Joan of Arc

Article is still a featured article
Messages left at User talk:Durova , Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Saints , Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle Ages, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography. Sandy 23:08, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seeking additional opinions about this article's NPOV balance. After FA approval it received some changes that prompted complaints on the talk page. As strange as it may seem that someone who died six centuries ago could inspire strong feelings, this subject does. Most of the disputes occurred in May-June. Some subtle changes survived until August.

To give an idea of the kinds of alterations that happened, here are some examples I spotted and corrected:

  • One editor selectively removed all categories that contained the word "female" or "women" in the title (specifically "Female wartime crossdressers," "Medieval women," and "Women in war").
  • An IP address removed William Shakespeare and Voltaire from an enumeration of famous authors who had written works about Joan of Arc, claiming that these were redundant while leaving others of lesser renown. The two deleted names were the only ones who had portrayed Joan of Arc in a negative light.
  • The Visions section addresses shortcomings in neurological and psychiatric hypotheses for Joan of Arc's visions (various proposals have been advanced, none of which have gained consensus support in the scholarly community). Changes to this part of the article had implied that these shortcomings meant Catholic doctrine was literally true.
  • Changes to cited passages gave opinions a religious overtone not present in the original source. For example, recharacterizing Edward Lucie-Smith's opinion from "more lucky than skilled" to "more blessed than skilled."
  • Insertion of a January 6 birthdate despite a detailed footnote that explains how this date is hagiographic (it coincides with the Epiphany and is contradicted by almost all reliable evidence).
  • Insertions within previously referenced paragraphs gave the appearance that new and uncited claims were referenced by the paragraph citation. One example is a statement that named Judy Grundy as a "scholar" to support a claim that Joan of Arc did not display psychiatric symptoms. Ms. Grundy's only apparent publication about Joan of Arc is a single article in a personal website that does not state her qualifications.

Although most changes were probably made with good intentions, collectively they gave the article a religious POV that prompted several complaints. I have gone over the text and history carefully, added additional references, and - I hope - been fair to all notable viewpoints. I also added two short paragraphs to the Background section and added quote boxes (which, to boast a little, are my own translations of passages from Joan of Arc's letters). Is this article sufficiently balanced now? Please comment. Durova 19:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is not much to discuss about the changes listed. Remove them. Wandalstouring 22:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Those changes have already been removed. I cite these as examples of subtle religious bias that crept into the article after passing FA. I've done my best to correct the imbalance. "FARs are intended to facilitate a range of improvements to FAs, from updating and relatively light editing..." This is the type of FAR I intended when I opened this page. Durova 16:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Low point

  • "The period that preceded Joan of Arc's career was one of the lowest points in French history." violates NPOV, better: was one of the lowest points for the house of Valois./was a hard time for the population of France and opponents of the reestablishing of the Angevin Empire.
Does anyone argue a lower point for the house of Valois? The consensus I've seen is that only the Nazi occupation was lower in all of French history (define its beginning however you like). Please cite a reference if this is mistaken. The article's statement is already sourced. Durova 18:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"I agree that this conflict shared some traits of a civil war (for somewhat different reasons than you express), yet civil war implies the idea of nationhood - concepts that do not graft well onto a fifteenth century context." So if there is no French nation how can this be the lowest point of a nation´s history? Besides what definition of lowest point does your source have? For example the Nazi occupation was a heyday for all supporters of Vichy (they were French natives) and the time afterwards was not so good for them. Besides it is a good time for historians to write about. Brittany and Burgundy are listed as allies of the king of England (!not the English king!) in Hundred Years War and they consider themselves French. Was winning the war against the Valois a good or a bad thing for these French? What kind of source should I show you? One stating this time was a time of peace and prosperity? Isn`t it obvious that defining a lowest point of a nation´s history (nation did not exist) is always POV. Wandalstouring 20:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I should clarify: nowhere does this article assert a modern concept of nationhood. The assumptions a twenty-first century reader brings to the term nation are misleading in a fifteenth century context. That discussion, which you raise, is worthy in its own right yet outside the scope of this article. What a brief background can accommodate is to name "France" and "England" without defining to what degree these were feudal states or incipient nations. The existing text is already referenced. You seem to be asserting that emergent nationalism rendered French history so fundamentally discontinuous that Joan of Arc is not part of French history. Have I understood the claim correctly? This would be so idiosyncratic that I'll wait for a citation before addressing it. Durova 13:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand completly. Please read again. My argumentation has nothing to do with your interpretation: "Isn`t it obvious that defining a lowest point of a nation´s history (nation did not exist) is always POV."
This is not POV when it constitutes expert consensus: DeVries expresses the matter in far stronger terms than this article does and both her conclusion and its vehemence are typical. It would violate WP:NOR to further dilute the statement without some specific citation to demonstrate the existence of a scholarly controversy. The way you expressed your criticism, hinging it on a remarkable interpretation that places Joan of Arc outside French history, led me to request a citation before addressing the matter further. Durova 17:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, there is no citation possibly if no other scientist uses such an expression and feels not urged to refer to such nonsense. Find simply another unbiased scientific (no extremists) source stating exactly this. And who makes this ranking of low points in French history on what basis? Where does this rating put 13 Vendémiaire, Napoleon_III_of_France#Authoritarian_Empire, Algerian War of Independence (Algeria was officially part of France) and the Reign of Terror? The reader needs verifiability (WP:VERIFY) of this claim. Wandalstouring 19:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I realize it can be hard to express an idea in one's second language. It's difficult to parse your meaning. Kelly DeVries is associate professor of history at Loyola College in Maryland and has published about Joan of Arc since 1994: surely this citation satisfies WP:Verify. Durova 15:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No verification WP:Verify. You pose an unverifiable claim. For example: Nigel Bagnall was Chief of General Staff of the British Army and devoted to studying military history. Still his book "The Punic Wars" has errors and I need further material to write a properly sourced article. So tossing authorities does not help you. Verify such a rating. If your authority has a rating he needs to name his criteria. So what are the criteria used? Wandalstouring 16:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that amateur historians are more likely to make mistakes than professional academics. Here professor DeVries writes within her specialty. You keep asking what she says: have you read the quote in the footnote? There have been only two times in French history that the country was in danger of ceasing to exist as an independent power: this was one and the other was Vichy. Durova 18:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I never wrote this, so you can never agree on this. Authority tossing is pointless. No I keep not asking what she says, I ask what the criteria are. So the criteria for low should be the possibility of territorial extinction? Than I have definetly to question why Vichy was the lowest point. There have been other times of foreign occupation and France was still France (it was divided for some time between a German military command in the northern zone and a French in the south, later it was all under German command, as well as the usual Alsace dispute), unlike Poland. On the other hand, what does highest point mean according to this definition? Wandalstouring 18:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Authority tossing" as you call it is required by Wikipedia policy. You seem to be interpolating something like a list of the ten lowest points in French history, then asking me exactly where the year 1428 would rank and why. That would be a futile exercise: what you or I think on the subject is not pertinent. If you were to cite a source that contended, for instance, that the chevauchée practice were much more limited, that estimates of the French population stagnation following the black death were inaccurate, and that French tradesmen had much better access to foreign markets than DeVries concludes - then we would have a basis for editorial discussion. Durova 19:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Try reading again. I simply asked questions on the categorization. Try to answer or keep quiet. Switching topics as you did is no answer. Wandalstouring 19:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do you find Kiril Lokshin's suggestion below acceptable? Durova 20:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, if author and reason(existance) for labeling it low point are mentioned. Wandalstouring 20:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the distinction here to be made was that it was a low point for the peasents and bourgois rather than a low point of political power/independance. It was a low point (moral) for the population residing in the kingdom of France. The ever increasing number of brigands, raiding forces and ever resource depleating war took a toll on the peasents far outweighting the political en-jeux. Even under Nazi occupation, the country side did not see so much rampage. Either way I agree with our coordinator's proposed solution.--Dryzen 14:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it was both. The political/military aspects are detailed and cited later in the section. But rather than focus on "low point" which seems to draw criticism, I've rewritten the paragraph. Durova 16:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the new paragraph, minus the citation (which is in the article): Durova 16:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Historian Kelly DeVries describes the period preceding Joan of Arc's appearance with, "If anything could have discouraged her, the state of France in 1429 should have." The Hundred Years' War had begun 1337 as a succession dispute to the French throne with intermittent periods of relative peace. Nearly all of the fighting had taken place in France and the English use of chevauchée tactics had decimated the French economy. The French population had not recovered from the black death of the previous century and its merchants were cut off from international markets. At the outset of Joan of Arc's career the English had almost realized their goal of a dual monarchy under English control and the French army had won no major victory for a generation. In DeVries's words, "the kingdom of France was not even a shadow of its thirteenth-century prototype."
Looks clean and to the point.--Dryzen 17:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Much better. Wandalstouring 17:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

French and English

It is not without difficult to label a fight between French and English. It was at this time a reestablishing of the Angevin Empire, which had lost most continental possesions while its ruler had decided to become King of England. So the Hundred Years' War was to some extend a French civil war. In modern scientific literature the term Angevin Empire is used for this Empire with its main strongholds in the Normandy and England lasting from 1154 till ~1399. Wikipedia has the concerning article poorly sourced. The conclusion there, that it only lasted till 1215 is not widely accepted and likely to be a misinterpretation of the wiki-editor (See German article).
I agree that this conflict shared some traits of a civil war (for somewhat different reasons than you express), yet civil war implies the idea of nationhood - concepts that do not graft well onto a fifteenth century context. I haven't seen the term Angevin Empire used in relation the Hundred Years' War. The expression itself is a nineteenth century creation. The English goal in this conflict went beyond reestablishing Henry II's realm and aspired to an actual dual monarchy. Their elite had spoken English as a first language for several generations by the time Joan of Arc appeared. All of this is well sourced in the article. Perhaps a sentence could be added for the English partisans in France - would you suggest one? The section is already overlong. If there are important works I have missed that support your other assertions, please cite them. Durova 15:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
(Harriss, Gerald; Shaping the Nation; England 1360-1461, Oxford 2005) or a contemporary source for the war (Froissart, Jean; Chroniques de France, d'Angleterre, d'Ecosse, de Bretagne, de Gascogne, de Flandre et lieux circonvoisinsan) could be used to source the actual political state. There it refers to a war between the English crown and the French crown. Usually this war is seen as the birth of the French and the English nation, but speaking of them as existant during the war is a bit unhistoric. You still have the Medieval concepts of rulers of small territories fighting for their gains, like Burgundy.Wandalstouring 20:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We seem to be in agreement here: to speak of nationhood in the context of the Hundred Years' War would problematic at best (which is why the article does not do so). Is this what Harris, Gerald assert? If they make some other point then please give a page number and quote a few relevant lines. Durova 13:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I completly agree, nationhood is problematic during the war, because it is seen as its origin. But nation also includes a nations country, so if we speak of somebody acting we have to refer to the Medieval concept of acting ruler (or ruling institution), not acting people of a country as in the modern nationhood concept. Wandalstouring 14:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Are you suggesting a specific modification here? Rather than take a side on the question of nationalism's origins, which would tread on WP:NPOV, I've simply referred to these polities as "France" and "England." Those seem to be the terms that best accommodate the competing interpretations. Durova 17:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No "so if we speak of somebody acting we have to refer to the Medieval concept of acting ruler (or ruling institution), not acting people of a country as in the modern nationhood concept."
Acting is the king of England against the king of France. Major French provinces (Brittany, Burgundy) have sided with the English king, making it not a war of the French entity against an outside invador. I checked J.F. Verbruggen "The Art of Warfare in Western Europe during the Middle Ages" Second revised translation, ISBN 0-85115-570-7 Nowhere in his accounts of the Hundred Years War or else is England or France as acting political unit mentioned, always the king or the local commander, while for troops it is referred to their native origins (Flemish, English, Welsh, French, etc.). For it is a scientific book forming the modern interpretation of Medieval warfare and translated twice, I think the content is worth it. If need is, I can quote you some pages. Wandalstouring 19:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I should have specified this before, but the discussion was ranging over too many issues: political alignments in this conflict were somewhat different from what you've asserted. Burgundy was allied with England for only sixteen years of a war that lasted more than a century. During Joan of Arc's career Brittany went from neutrality to Valois allegiance. Since you are familiar with her letter to the Hussites perhaps you also know 28 March 1430, to the citizens of Reims: Austre chose quant á présent ne vous rescri fors que toute Bretaigne est francaise et doibt le duc envoier au roy III mille combatans paiez pour iy moys.(Quicherat V, p. 161). Note the choice of words: que toute Bretaigne est francaise - referring not to the duke but to the province. Why introduce verbose qualifiers?
This discussion strays very far from the point: an opening paragraph to the background has to summarize matters for a general reader. Subsequent passages detail the most germane politics. If you can suggest some concise and specific improvement, I'll be glad to use it. Durova 15:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Acting is the king of England against the king of France. The rulers of major French provinces (Brittany, Burgundy) have sided with the English king, making it not a war of the French entity against an outside invador. What relevance has your source for the citizens of Reims switching sides very lately in this war? And how reliable is your source if it is a contemporary French source?
I checked J.F. Verbruggen "The Art of Warfare in Western Europe during the Middle Ages" Second revised translation, ISBN 0-85115-570-7 Nowhere in his accounts of the Hundred Years War or else is England or France as acting political unit mentioned, always the king or the local commander, while for troops it is referred to their native origins (Flemish, English, Welsh, French, etc.). One exception are the Flemish cities, which act on their own. For this is a scientific book, forming the modern interpretation of Medieval warfare and translated twice, I think the content is worth it. If need is, I can quote you some pages.
So please tell me what you don't understand? This is a very clear directive for naming.Wandalstouring 16:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What you have described is an example rather than a directive. If Verbruggen states explicitly that it is inappropriate to refer to France as a political unit in the early fifteenth century, please provide a page citation. Bear in mind that your reference is a broad survey history. So far I see no need to require a distinction that neither the original source material nor pertinent specialty studies necessarily use: introductory statements are inherently brief.
Joan of Arc was not commenting on the citizens of Reims changing allegiance; she was reporting to Reims that Brittany had joined the Valois cause (Reims is not in Brittany). This cited quote contradicts your assertion that Brittany was allied with the English at the time, and also your contention that the Wikipedia article should not refer to provinces and countries as political units. To touch on a delicate matter, this is one example of a pattern of problems that appear to arise from your reading comprehension. I understand how this can happen in a second language. While you have demonstrated some fairly extensive reading on medieval European history, some of your assertions fall well outside the mainstream. Perhaps you misunderstood those sources as well? Durova 18:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is very hard to remain kind. You say lots of things, hide behind big authorities, are not able to answer simple question and constantly try to diminish my ability to understand English. It is impossible to work with this attitude of an editor to say the least. I do not claim to be any expert on the topic of Medieval history. It seems that some points I bring up have already been mentioned earlier by other competent editors. Wandalstouring 18:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If your feelings are hurt, I apologize sincerely. I don't mean this as any criticism of your intellect: my German is now somewhat rusty, but even at its best when Germans sometimes mistook me for a native speaker, I could read Der Spiegel but got confused by the Frankfurter Allgemeine. I understand how these things can happen - there were several points in this discussion where things seemed out of step and I hesitated a while before mentioning the pattern. There was another point in your previous post that I forgot to answer: Quicherat's compilation of documents regarding Joan of Arc has been the gold standard, second only to the original French archives, since its publication in the 1840s. By the standards of historical method, an original contemporary letter by Joan of Arc has a high degree of reliability. This was one of the three letters she signed. Durova 19:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Was there some other discussion going on while this one raged? If not I seem to have lost some mesure of information. You both agreed on the principle of nation then disagreed on what?--Dryzen 14:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wandalstouring wanted to reword the statement in a way that would not only omit outright mention of nationalism, but would reflect a POV that this era had no traits of nationalism at all. I considered that an inappropriate editorial position on an open question. Durova 16:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That is a touchy subject, first off what are your perceives definitions of Nationalism? The was definitly an quasi-"nationalist" spirit involved, yet rather than being driven by the image of a Nation (as we have today) it stemmed more from a Faction within wich a person existed. Comming out from his kinship on to his local lands and onward towards the magnates with varying degrees of completion. You both agree that there was nationalist spirit as we know it involved at this time, correct?--Dryzen 17:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The early origins of nationalism are not well studied. To many French people Joan of Arc is the embodiment of nationalism, although Napoleon's use of her memory for political propaganda might have altered perceptions of her as a folk hero. This is an intriguing topic: one often sees superficial mentions of Joan of Arc in connection with "French nationalism" in modern histories. The Richey quote touches on that. Yet Joan of Arc's connection to early nationalism has not been the subject of in-depth analysis. The best approach here seems to be to sidestep the issue - which is less a reflection of my personal preferance than a respectful nod to WP:NOR and the undue weight discussion at WP:NPOV. Durova 18:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't want to state there was no nationalism, but I wanted to avoid it in cases it can be misleading. It is common usage to talk about acting rulers in the Medieval Ages, not acting people, so as long as it is not definite we have a acting nation I would not refer to this concept. The Hundred Years' War was officially a lengthy legal dispute between two kings until she appeared. Of course the reported statements of Joan show different and there it is at least appropriate. I can try some research tomorrow. Wandalstouring 18:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We're pretty close to agreement here: both of us feel that "national" as a term is inappropriate. I bowed to further input on the topic of "low point." Would you accept the opinions of other editors that "France" and "England" are sufficient in this context? Durova 20:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
pretty close. I was wondering about the legal disputes, but I think I can live with it. Wandalstouring 20:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Angevin Empire

Source on the Angevin Empire refering to its existence till ~1399: Dieter Berg, Die Anjou-Plantagenets. Die englischen Könige im Europa des Mittelalters 1100–1400, Stuttgart 2003

Then I suppose I have to agree that some scholar has referred to the Angevin Empire as existing during part of the Hundred Years' War, particularly since I'm not likely to find that title at an American university library. Still, if a single German source is all that advocates extending this definition as late as the fourteenth century, I doubt it constitutes a need to alter the English language article about fifteenth century events. Durova 13:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Origins of the Hundred Years War: The Angevin Legacy 1250-1340 by Malcolm Vale
This shows the Angevin Empire Legacy contributing to the start of the Hundred Years War. There are several interpretations how long this empire lasted (most end it around (1215-1225) and how long its legacy lasted (beginning of the Hundred Years War or end of the Hundred Years War). Wandalstouring 14:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The sources you specify date its end in the fourteenth century. Since you also state that most sources end it a century earlier, it looks safe to omit mention of the Angevin Empire in this article. Maybe you could update the Angevin Empire article? It looks like it would benefit from your help. Durova 17:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Letters

Her letter against the Hussites is missing. Wandalstouring 20:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You know the subject well. I really couldn't see a way to set an excerpt from this letter into context for the main article. This is the only one attributed to her where there is real scholarly doubt about whether she actually dictated it: it could have been the work of her confessor Jean Pasquerel. She never actually warred against the Hussites or even made serious preparations to do so. The ancillary article Joan of Arc facts and trivia covers specialized interest topics - perhaps this would be appropriate there. Durova 15:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mentioning it at least with a link (perhaps even a comment) could be useful, because the sheer existance of this letter condemming the Hussites is important. The Hussites are the first Czech nationalists from a modern Czech perspective and they were a very religious group who inflincted special Catholic traditions in their homeland till nowadays.Wandalstouring 20:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the Hussites were a notable movement: did her letter had any effect? Did some Hussites abandon the movement because of it? Did others dispatch spies to France? To the best of my knowledge, none of that happened as a result. This makes the matter a good candidate for the Joan of Arc facts and trivia article: I invite you to add a section there. Of course, if you do find reliable source that argues the letter had some real impact, by all means provide a reference. I'd be very interested. If it's a German source, just quote the original. Please supply full citation information including page number. Durova 13:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"did her letter have any effect?" Does this matter? She claimed divine inspiration and fought in a war in France. If she wrote this letter, she claims to influence events outside of France. Simple logic. Wandalstouring 14:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree this letter has encyclopedic merit. To address the matter from a different perspective, every month or two a new editor joins the dialogue to advocate inclusion of some ancillary topic. Joan of Arc is already 57k: in order to keep it a reasonable size the editors here split off two pages Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc (a featured list) and Joan of Arc facts and trivia: "Joan of Arc facts and trivia covers topics of specialized interest that pertain to the life and legacy of Joan of Arc." Sooner or later someone will also raise the matter of her letter to the count of Armagnac and the Great Schism. While these events are important in themselves, her relation to them is slight, and without some editorial discretion this article would eventually grow as large as the Catalan language version (165k). It is hard to discuss these issues adequately in the main article without giving them undue weight. Durova 17:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not mentioning is the wrong choice. Make a list of what she probably did and link to specific articles concerning these things. But having no link or comment on them makes this article B-class. They are substantial information, because this woman seems more than a divine-inspired-soldiergirl. Wandalstouring 19:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Really, that is an unusual opinion. I know of no featured biography that lists all the letters its subject wrote (full length books, yes, but not short correspondence). The main article links to Joan of Arc facts and trivia twice: at the start of the legacy section and at the "See also" section. It would go against Wikipedia convention to add a list of section headings to a Wikilink. Durova 15:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Constant change of topic makes it impossible to get anywhere. Otto von Bismarck and Ems Dispatch (but no featured article yet). Wandalstouring 16:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Otto von Bismarck contains no list of Bismark's correspondence and the Ems Dispatch started a war. If the letter to the Hussites had started a war then it would certainly deserve attention on the main article. Do you have a citation to any evidence that it produced any effect at all? Include a page number, please. Durova 18:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For my little two farthings, I think the letters are a source from wich one can judge the character of Joan of Arc, gain insite on her personnality rather than on her ability to affect the politics. Of course I could be reading this argument the wrong way, we are speaking about keeping her letters in her articles?--Dryzen 14:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it's hard to follow this without background knowledge: an additional letter not in the article threatens military action against the Hussites, a heretical sect outside France. Joan of Arc never actually crusaded against the Hussites and, to further complicate things, there is serious scholarly dispute about whether she even dictated that particular letter. I suggest adding this topic to Joan of Arc facts and trivia unless someone cites evidence that the letter was more than an empty threat. Wandalstouring has not provided a citation, but insists it belongs in the main article rather than the ancillary page. I'm not certain why (he or she) rejects that alternative, but unless that editor provides some new pertinent information I'll stand firm. The article sees regular attempts at expansion into tangential areas and some editorial discretion is necessary for space reasons. Just today a different editor tried to add a list of other notable women who had been compared to Joan of Arc: a pretty good idea for a list, but more appropriate on the subsidiary article. Durova 17:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

non-specific

  • If the article was Featured standard before these changes were made, then surely the changes can be reverted so the article goes back to the state it was in when it was agreed to be Featured standard? It's not as if this is one of those very old articles which was made Featured a long time ago before the current criteria were brought in: it was only made Featured this year, and went through the nomination process - and passed - properly. Also, since Miss Of Arc has been dead for hundreds of years, no new information has come to light... and what was true in March 2006 remains true in August 2006. I say, simply, Keep the Featured status and revert any changes made since the nomination which did not serve to improve the quality of the article further. EuroSong talk 10:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there's any real doubt that this remains featured article quality. I requested this review because I've addressed the NPOV matter pretty much on my own. A few fresh perspectives always helps. There have been about 1000 edits to the article since it passed FA, which makes direct comparison between versions difficult (I've done this repeatedly and keep spotting new things). Some of the changes have been beneficial and wholesale reversion would risk violating WP:OWN. Instead of thinking this is a solid FA and letting the article rest on its laurels, I'd really like to put Wikipedia's best foot forward when the 0.5 CD comes out. Thanks very much for the suggestions. Durova 15:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Review is not over. Wandalstouring 21:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. I welcome all feedback. Durova 13:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If I may draw this back to the original review request, I posted here because I wanted to see whether the religious and secular aspects of the article are balanced. Welcoming feedback of any sort, yet those were the particular issues that came up on talk while I was on Wikibreak. Durova 22:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support Kyriakos 04:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support issues solved. Wandalstouring 09:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: There's no need to support or object yet. This is still the first review section. Keep working away! Marskell 17:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just wanted to make clear it is yet not readdy to pass. Wandalstouring 19:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Have we ironed out your objections now? Durova 15:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK Wandalstouring 15:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some thoughts

My, this is getting rather heated. Let's try to avoid having this descend into a personal argument, and focus instead on (what seem to me) to be the main issues:

Lowest points in French history
This is almost certainly a debatable point, particularly as there's no distinction made vis-a-vis French military history versus French history in general. Certainly there are any number of very unpleasant periods that can be brought forth. However, I think the credentials of the source making the claim are decent enough that it can be included. The best course of action, in my opinion, would be to specify the source explicitly: "According to the historian So-and-So, ..." This avoids the thorny issue of whether the judgement is truly objective while at the same time presenting what appears to be a significant and defensible view of the matter.
England & France
Technically, this could be described as a fight between two claimants to the French throne (by virtue of the Treaty of Troyes), between the English king and the French one, between the English crown and the Valois, and any number of other possibilities. However, I would suggest that by far the most common manner of assigning labels here is to identify the dauphin with "France" and Henry with "England". That these labels are not exact may be explained in a footnote, if desired; but adopting a different usage will bewilder readers.
Hussites
I don't think this is all that significant of a point, since the Hussites drew threats of crusades like moths to a candle, and Joan disappeared from the political arena too early to actually do anything in this regard. It's a topic that may very well deserve an article in its own right; but I would recommend against jamming it into this article, given that space is at a premium and there's already a number of more important letters presented.

I suspect my comments are going to provoke a storm of disagreement from everyone involved, as I think I stepped on all toes equally ;-) Having said that, let's make every effort to ensure that comments here are about the article, not about the reviewers. Kirill Lokshin 19:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Very good points. I'll think about how to reword the statement and mention DeVries by name. Durova 19:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I share much of Kirill Lokshin's thoughts. To share a my fealling of thsi page: the two main speakers found here, Durova and Wandalstouring, seem to be arguing semantics and sources with little actual contest between the two's view points. As there is a language element present the semantics themselves are a naturaly occuring pitfall. Reading about I have on many occasion lost the orignal spark that started the debate and at the end of it all am more confused as to what was the problem and what where to be the solutions.--Dryzen 14:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thou

Article is still a featured article

Review commentary

No Wiki Projects linked: left message at User talk:Ihcoyc, original FA nominator. Sandy 14:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lacks inline citations
  • Has very short sections
  • Listy intro
  • May need some better section organization

Todor→Bozhinov 11:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • A very odd FA. I agree with the nominator. Heading "The modern plural problem" (my emphasis) is, IMV, POV. Tony 16:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have added a number of in-line citations to the article on various facts related in it, and cited that great authority Rob Liefeld once. Please note that many other statements lack inline citations primarily because they already say what they are quoting in the text itself. I'd like to see specific authority on the north British dialect persistence of thou, but I did not write those parts. The list in the intro seems the best way to handle that. Smerdis of Tlön 14:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does anyone else find the picture of Shakespeare (with its weasel caption) a little random? Pagrashtak 00:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • A bit, but it's true that people think of "thou" as a Shakespearian affectation, and I'm hard put to think of a better lede image for this article. What do you propose — an image of a loaf of bread and a jug of wine?  ;?) Peirigill 10:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I propose that if the caption "Most modern English speakers think of "thou" as a relic of Shakespeare's day" is to stay, that it needs a reference, as it is weasel text. There is no rule that all articles much have images - perhaps this article would be better served by having no image in the lead. Pagrashtak 20:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've re-written the lede, changed the section names and structure, and copyedited a little. This should help address the above concerns. Peirigill 10:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are lack of citations (2c), short sections and structure (5), intro (3a). Marskell 09:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. Here's what's been done since listing at FAR.
    • The list of comparisons should be in this order: Modern English, Middle English, Frisian, Dutch, and German. The current order is chaotic.
    • The grammatical terminology is too Latinate (especially "genitive", which would be simpler and more widely comprehended as "possessive").
    • Rather under-referenced.

I guess it's OK. Tony 14:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Status. Not comfortable closing this with two fact requests in the lead. "'Thou' was later used to express familiarity, intimacy, or disrespect." This is fairly time of day and I'm sure can be easily cited. "'Thou' persists, sometimes in altered form, in regional dialects of England and Scotland." For this, one would expect a good source. If anyone is watching the review, maybe track down those citations? Marskell 21:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Free will

Article is still a featured article
Messages left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Neuroscience. Sandy 20:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article has very few inline citations, especially considering its 59 kb length. The scientific section, though it contains some references needs more references to be up to even GA standards. Its prose is not that great and could definitely be greatly improved with copy-edits (possibly trimming as well). For example, in one section there are three quotations in a row (two from the same author) without sufficient prose that could be made to flow much better. What really kills it is the lack of references in most sections, however. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 03:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It might be salvagable in that case. There is a superabundance of research resources on the philosophical arguments about this topic on the Internet alone. It might not be so easy with the scientific sections. But I'll start on it tomorrow, if possible.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 21:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's frigthening, now that I look at it. Needs to be cut in half, at least. Completely reorginized. Prose is not the right word. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 21:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, Francesco, do you think you can fix it in a day or two (just kidding — the FAR process is actually 2 weeks of review, followed by another two weeks of FARC, only if necessary :-) I've been watching the statement in there about Tourette syndrome for a long time. I have no idea what it's trying to say, so I hope you can address that. I can't figure out what a neurological condition has to do with Free will. Regards, Sandy 22:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just read through the comments and some of the history of edit-warring and such on this thing. Could you perhaps extend that period to three YEARS?? Oh my!! I will need to call in the reserves on this one. But none of them seems to be home right now. This should be intersting. </terror>--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 21:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's the way the consensus wants this thing apparently. Sickening!! --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 09:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC) Latest assessment (somewhat subjective because personally involved though): significant improvements have been made. Not quite there yet, but we're making progress. Sections have been forked, the science section has been massively improved and there are many,many more citations. Still needs some rewrite on phi. section for content and quality of prose. More cites in several areas.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the article is greatly improved. It would be helpful if other reviewers would have a look, and comment on any work remaining to be done. Hopefully this one will avoid FARC. As the diff shows, the article has been rewritten this week. Sandy 11:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What's the process? How could it be stopped from going into FARC anyway?--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 12:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If the consensus is that it has been brought back to FA status, it doesn't go to FARC. Even if it does go to FARC, that just gives you a longer period to work on the article, so not to panic :-)) Sometimes, editors don't get around to looking at an article seriously until it moves to FARC. I've sometimes missed a few in the FAR stage, and found things that needed to be addressed only after it moved to FARC, but that doesn't mean the article will be delisted. As long as progress is ongoing, most reviewers are happy. Sandy 21:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article looks pretty good now — much better than when I put it under FAR. The references and the like are fine. I'm not very well-versed in philosophy, however, so I'll leave it to those who have been working on the article to determine if it's comprehensive enough to be considered an FA. Good work, guys! — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 17:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah it's comprehensive enough for an FA, indeed, the danger is that it will become too comprehensive and cease to be encyclopedic, but I think we've avoided that. Bmorton3 19:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's one important observation I wanted to add: this is absolutely the first example of concrete, contructive collaboration that I have seen on a philosophy article on Wikipedia since I've started on this thing back in January. I think we have genuinely managed to improved the article, while avoiding edit wars, personal quarrels and all the other nonsense that usually takes place. Some of you guys are fairly new and will tend to underestimate this accomplishment. Very impressive, folks.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 20:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status? Major rewrite, article is well-referenced, can we get more opinions as to avoiding FARC? Sandy 23:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the people I know are in the philosophy "depatrtment". I am extremely histant to ask for their specific input for two reasons, Sandy: 1) Most of the ones I trust have already worked on the article. 2) The others might (will!!) almost certainly want to add their own quotes, favorite philosphers, and so on, to an already realtively lengthy article. This could even lead to instaibility and edit-wars.

Many of the non-philosophical people I have some familiarty with, on the other hand, are hesitiant to edit such an article becuase it is not their field and so on. But I will see what I can do even in this respect, just for you (;? --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removed status

AC power plugs and sockets

Article is still a featured article.

Was good; is now... not. Has been moved about, now to a rather... odd name, restructured, and generally messed about with. James F. (talk) 15:02, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • Keep. Still looks good to me -- Chris 73 Talk 15:53, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. the name change was the result of americans who can't seem to grasp the term mains such is life but the old name still redirects so its no real biggie

as for the rearangement mess that was the result of the page growing way beyond 32K i've tried to made a start on cleanup but i would to know exactly what you think is wrong Plugwash 17:58, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • Keep - could do with more polishing, but still good enough. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:06, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep - no reason to remove Kiand 19:20, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ford Mustang

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Messages left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles.

It's been 2 years since the article was given FA status. With the introduction of the current S-197 Mustang, and the addition of information and models that was not included in the original FA nod (I have no idea how it got FA status despite not being "Complete"; The 80's section got a boost via two specialty models for example), I think the article has been severely compromised.

My main concern is the S-197 Section. I went in once to remove obvious fancruft in one part, but I have a lingering suspicion that some of the text might be bordering on possible commercialism (or is outright commercial propaganda) but I cannot put my finger on what is fact and what is just a marketing ploy.--293.xx.xxx.xx 10:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there are no inline citations and the lead is insufficient. Is Image:Mustangunexpected.JPG truly public domain? Pagrashtak 20:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Don't look at me, i'm more concerned about the content, not the images. --293.xx.xxx.xx 08:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not specifically asking you, I'm listing other concerns about the article. Pagrashtak 19:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article is very bad indeed, some sections are badly unwikified and needs cleanup. I would really love this to stay as an FA as it's one of the top cars of all-time but it needs work. I deleted the two not PD images Jaranda wat's sup 22:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a number of problems, the most important being the lack of reference.
  1. No references. The 2004 featured version (which I believe was this one based on the talk page) has grown quite a lot. However, the 2004 had two references, and the current version, 3 (with over twice its size) and 5 inline links (which should be transformed into foot notes). The article apparently has no active maintainer (it reached up to 50 external links).
  2. There are embedded external links in sections like Current third-party tuner versions, which should have wikilinks instead.
  3. The headings don't sound encyclopedic (From sporty car to sports car, The industry reacts, The Mustang grows up).
  4. Weasel words, peacock terms (this is because of the lack of references). A search for most returns:
    • it was the most successful product launch in automotive history
    • it was the single most expensive Mustang option
    • the 1967 to 1970 GT-500 are among the most sought-after
    • Though the "'Cuda" would grow into one of the most revered muscle cars of all time
    • with a small "BOSS 429" decal on each front fender, hinted that most powerful Ford V8 of all time
    • It is also worth noting that four of the five years of the Mustang II are on the top-ten list of most-sold Mustangs.
    • The original 1969 and 1970 Mustang Mach 1s were (and remain) some of the most popular Mustangs ever
    • The most powerful factory-produced Mustang ever is the new Shelby GT500.
I am sure there are more things, but as it is now, it is failing 1c (lack of references), 1d (neutrality, due lack of references) and 2b (heading style). -- ReyBrujo 23:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
God, it got FA on THAT?!?! THAT?!?! I'm sorry, but that had to be one of the worst FA nods ever. The references sucked, most of the variants aren't even listed, the article was too "lean" and lacked meat. My Ford Mustang SSP article has more references that that, and info on that model is extremely hard to come by!! --293.xx.xxx.xx 08:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Back two years ago there weren't (I think) easy-to-use references system, and since most of the information seems to come from the book, I believe it was the best they could do. I don't object the FA status when it got it, but I object the current status. -- ReyBrujo 16:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dumb question, but in the S-197 section, aren't press releases written word for word a copyright violation?--293.xx.xxx.xx 18:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Remove not FA quality, lacks references and much data. --Bob 16:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note to all editors: This is not the place to comment to keep or remove the FA status from the article. At this stage the concerns are raised and if they are not addressed within a considerable amount of time (usually 2 weeks) then this is moved to FARC where "votes" are issued to keep or remove the article. Joelito (talk) 14:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Move to FARC: lacking inline citations, and that's not the least of its problems. Sandy 01:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • Well, no one bothered to address a/or help in my concerns in the opening post, so I went in and deleted most of the technical stuff and cruft, and did some reference notes. Also, I tagged the SN-95 section with rewrite tags. It's a start.--293.xx.xxx.xx 11:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are comprehensiveness (1b), commercial POV (1d), and citations (1c). Marskell 14:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Papal Tiara

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Messages left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism and Talk:Papal Tiara

A pretty good article overall, but needs several changes to meet the requirements of a featured article:

  1. Intro is too short and does not summarize information from the History or Design sections.
  2. The History section focuses almost entirely on the 20th century popes, with little mention of the History of the Tiara in the period 1314-1900. It jummps straight from the origins to the "last crowned pope." In the Origins sections there is only one reference to only one author, Noonan.
  3. The Vicarius Filii Dei section is just a mess, far too long for a single conspiracy theory. Rather than giving a good summary origin and historicla context of the 666 controversy, it gives a complicated point-by-point rebuttal which delves into original research and the focus on lack of evidence.
  4. The Usage section has only one reference and doesn't really deal with the way the usage of the tiara has evolved over time.
  5. The Other Tiara's section has no references, particularly for the Ottoman claim, which should have a source.
  6. There are also far too many images, which clutter the text and in at least one instance create a big gob of white space. There are far too many images whose only connection to the article is "Pope XXX wearing the tiara". The images that are used should make sense in the section they are used and contribute to the content in that section.
  7. The "A permanent end to the wearing of the triple tiara?" section has too much speculation and too few sources. For example, the claim "Pope Benedict XVI has confirmed the continued use of representations the tiara as an official symbol of the papacy" without a reference. Benedict XVI certainly hasn't worn the tiara, so this statement would need to be more specific and more referenced.

These are the most obvious problems with the article which should be addressed. I'd like to see them fixed because in a few places this article is actually quite brilliant and I'd like to see it remain featured if fixed. savidan(talk) (e@) 19:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re 1. The intro is continually being rewritten, it is suspected, by the same user using various identities, to reinsert variations on his own substandard opening. When I get the chance I will undo his damage, again (that's the downside of an open edit encyclopaedia, I suppose. People who don't what they are doing can totally screw up a good article.)

Re 2. The reason it focuses on the twentieth century popes is because many of the files on earlier usage, which would be needed to write a comprehensive review of earlier usage, have not been released by the Vatican. In the absence of other information most historians have not been able to write detailed histories of past usage. With few books little is available for inclusion. (I have been able to source some new material. Since I wrote this article it has spurred the writing of other articles elsewhere and led to a couple of academic articles on the topic, bringing more sources into the public. Also older encyclopaedia articles on the topic have now been scanned and are available. Twentieth century popes are a different matter, as alternative sources (notably media reportage and Vatican Press office information) has enabled histories of usage to be supplied.

Re 3: The Vicarius Filii Dei is necessarily long and follows the standard Wikipedia approach to dealing with complex issues. Unless a lot of detail is put in rebutting the nonsense, promoters of the myth would use the gap to pack out with wacky 666 claims. Where such dangers exist, it is normal to write a long section, notwithstanding a main article elsewhere, to close off the scope for conspiracy theorists to promote the myth in the article. (I have learnt from experience on many articles elsewhere over four years that leaving out a controversial aspect, or writing a short summary, is a recipe for disaster. It simply leaves the field open for conspiracy theorists to add in dodgy claims and fight edit wars to stop them being removed. The more detail and rebuttals with images are supplied, the less likely unsourced claims are likely to be added in, so maintaining the quality of the overall article.)

Re 4, 5: More information has now become available including long out of print texts that were not reissued until this article was written by me and then copied all over the net. (It has also apparently featured in newspaper articles in Ireland, Britain, Italy and the US.) That will now be added in. As the topic had not received much attention before this article and the tiara was not a very popular current issue, there was very little information available when this article was written originally.

Re 6. I disagree that there are two many images, as do many others who have read the article and commented on it. I happen to be aware that a number of academics off Wikipedia, plus someone in the Vatican, has commented favourably on the article because of the number of images, arguing that on a topic so visual as a set of crowns the article shows examples of usage and context. Given that individual tiaras are associated with individual popes, and the mythology concerning the supposed decoration of different tiaras, it is necessary, again to disarm pushers of the myth, to show sufficient evidence of usage stretching over papacies, times, angles, etc to discourage edit warring on the issue.

Re 7: Given that there is a question mark at the end of that section, by its nature the paragraph has to be speculative, as we do not know if there is a permanent end to the wearing of the papal tiara. The claim "Pope Benedict XVI has confirmed the continued use of representations the tiara as an official symbol of the papacy" is patently self evident. The papal flag still has the tiara. The coat of arms of the Holy See and of the Vatican both have the papal tiara. Every document issued in the Pope's name using the Vatican crest includes the tiara. The tiara was simply removed from one small area, the Pope's own personal coat of arms, and even there I have heard that some texts have been released by the Vatican showing a version of his coat of arms with the tiara. (I understand that most people in the Vatican regard Benedict's coat of arms as hideous and that he is rather embarrassed by them himself. But he is stuck with them.) Given that formal banner and crests are issued by new popes, and the crests and banners all have the tiara, ipso facto Benedict has "confirmed the continued use of representations the tiara as an official symbol of the papacy." Maybe the sentence just needs reframing to make clear just how self-evident it is. (I don't think I wrote that particular sentence but I could be wrong. I wrote this article some time ago.)

I do think the standard of this article has slipped a bit since I last visited it. Even do often I have had to return and do a cull of dodgy additions and reinsert strange deletions of text. I'll give the text a thorough going over in the next few days. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 03:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the speedy response! I look forward to your changes to the intro and the addition of references in the places you mentioned. I won't comment on these further until you've had a chance to fix them and incorporate these new sources.
I would like to ask you, though, on this Benedict XVI issue whether the analysis that Benedict has "confirmed" something is your own or that of another author. The statement of facts like the fact that it shows up on his coat of arms is fine. But, if it is to be implied that the tiara could make a comeback as a result of these facts, that should be attributed to a published source. savidan(talk) (e@) 06:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are LEAD (2a) quality, consistency, and length of presentation (1c and 4). Marskell 13:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak remove. There are easily remediable issues—shortish LEAD, red-linked pic, rhetorical question as a headline—that do not rise to remove. Instead, I tilt that way because I agree with the nominator's concern over the jump from origins to the 20th century. This is jarring and doesn't read well. FearEIREANN notes "The reason it focuses on the twentieth century popes is because many of the files on earlier usage...have not been released by the Vatican. In the absence of other information most historians have not been able to write detailed histories of past usage." If that is the case, the absence of info should be mentioned and sourced. But surely, something can be added post-1342 (various other sections mention pre-20th century dates, for instance). This is a weak remove because in other respects this is obviously a very comprehensive article. Marskell 07:51, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak remove. I agree with Tim that there's good about this article, and that it's a pity to remove it. But until the prose is raised to a "professional" standard, it should not be a FA. I picked out a few examples at random:
    • "... replacing it with a ceremony of what was called "Inauguration of the Supreme Pontificate"; and after John Paul I's sudden death, Pope John Paul II told ...". The semicolon is the link; "and" should be removed. This blemish is right at the top.
    • Throughout the article, there seem to be inconsistency WRT whether a comma is used after initial adverbial and prepositional phrases. The absence of a comma might be OK in places, but where nominal groups are jammed up against each other, it's hard to read; e.g., "However, in the coat of arms of the Holy See and of the Vatican City State Pope Benedict XVI decided to keep the tiara, not a mitre." (Comma after "Pope". More formal at the end would be "rather than", not "not".)
    • Awkward/informal: "As with all previous popes, Pope Paul VI was crowned with ...". And the subsequent sentence starts with "As", too.
    • Vague grammar: "Quite different from earlier tiaras, it was not covered in jewels and precious gems, and was sharply cone-shaped." The problem with the first phrase is that it raises the possibility of differences aside from the two that are explicated. I don't think that's the intention; if it is, we'd like to know what they are. Tony 01:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove Certain subsections have zero inline citations, and other sections need more inline citations (1. c.). LuciferMorgan 22:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove Referencing problems is some sections. I'm a bit confused with the organization of "Footnotes" and "References" (why some sources of the footnotes are not mentioned in the references and the opposite). External links in footnotes are not properly citated (lacking author, title, date they were retrieved etc.). Very short lead.--Yannismarou 09:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

James Bulger

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Messages left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography and Wikipedia talk:UK Wikipedians' notice board. Sandy 23:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article has accumulated quite a bit of criticism, some suggestions as to what to do about the problems, but not enough enthusiasm from anyone to bring it back up to Featured Standard (me included!). There seems to be a consensus (or at least no sign of a lack of consensus) that its not of FA quality, so I thought I would list it here, to seek views on what can be done. See the article and its talk page for details. SP-KP 16:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Needs inline citations (a violation of criterion 1. c.), and there should be plenty of newspapers and crime reports that could be utilized. LuciferMorgan 23:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status? No inline cites, move to FARC. Sandy 01:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are inline citations and NPOV. Joelito (talk) 15:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Soap bubble

previous FAR

She Loves You

previous FAR

Prince-elector

previous FAR

Heavy metal umlaut

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Messages left at User talk:Cow, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music genres. Sandy 22:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article is poorly sourced: only one reference is listed, and only one inline citation or note is made. It was nominated when "I think this article is cute" meant that an article was able to get FA status, and WP's standards have greatly raised sense then. It is certianly not one of Wikipedia's "best works". In conclusion it is a "färcrÿ" from modern featured article status. -Aknorals 13:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - There are 16 inline citations and a footnote. General references listed include seven online sources, and the book used for the footnote. Nevertheless, it is heavily list-oriented; when I saw the article a few days ago I wondered if it might be more appropriate as a Featured List. Gimmetrow 13:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section 4 of the article is way too listy, which needs to be addressed. All this disjointed prose needs to be tied into real paragraphs, as right now it's a violation of criterion 2. a. LuciferMorgan 15:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Some obvious citations are missing, such as the 2002 Spin magazine article and the Neal Stephenson quote. I could understand reclassifying this as a list. Yet, having created two FLs myself, I doubt the entries are sufficiently documented to pass FLC. Given the vast number of websites about music, shouldn't this page link to stable sites that reproduce album cover images and diacritical marks in titles and lyrics? When I verified Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc the popular music section was the easiest thing to source...erm, maybe that should be Jöan of Ärc. Durova 19:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Personally I'd zap sections 4 and 5, and try and get citations for everything else. This is relatively serious article about a fun topic but as it stands it's not quite up scratch. I think the Featured List idea isn't a winner because it's the list part which brings the article down. Zap that and restore it to prose and it would be much better. --kingboyk 17:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns is lack of references (1c). Marskell 09:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove Not featured quality. Punctured Bicycle 17:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove Looooong listy sections. Only one inline citation. Poor references. Poor organization of the very few references, citations and external links. Definitely not featured quality.--Yannismarou 17:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove - The problems I cited in the article's FAR (mainly 1. a., alongside 1. c.) haven't been addressed. LuciferMorgan 17:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove - Just not up to today's FA expectations. Durova 03:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC) Based on the request below, please refer to my FAR comments: the text itself appears to be excellent but the article is considerably short on references. Listiness isn't a problem for me, but it would be for most editors, and the shortage of references applies to the list portions as well as the main text. Durova 05:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove - sadly, but it's had it's 15 minutes of fames. Poor referencing, crappy list section, prose is less than brilliant in places. --kingboyk 17:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove. The lists should probably have been syphoned off into daughter articles/lists. Stubby paragraphs elsewhere. (Tony)

Comment: Could I remind reviewers that general negative comments such as "Not featured quality" don't carry much weight. Please let us into your substantive thinking, even if expressed in only a phrase or two. Tony 01:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vulgar Latin

previous FAR

Tea

previous FAR

Eigenvalue, eigenvector and eigenspace

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Messages left at User talk:Vb, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics. Sandy 22:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article has absolutely no in-line cites. There are about four references listed in the References sections, but they might be furhter reading for all the averager reader can know. The prose is extraordinatily technical and certainly not accessible to the lay reader, as required by FA criteria. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • No inline-cites: Common style in academic writing (at least in maths and related subjects) is not to provide references for well-known facts. Most, if not all, of the article is well known and can be found in any linear algebra book. I haven't followed Wikipedia policies on this subject, but if it has become accepted that every fact should have an inline reference, then I'd like to know.
References section: I do not understand this comment. Should it be mentioned after every reference, that this has in fact been used? I thought that materials for further reading should go in a "Further reading" section.
Too technical: Which FA criterion says that it should be accessible to the lay reader? I agree that some parts will be hard to understand for somebody without a scientific background, but that's inevitable in my opinion. I don't see where the prose is too technical; could you give an example? -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 10:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I second what Jitse said about inline citations: they're quite useless in the context, as it is common math knowledge that can be found in any ordinary algebra book. And yes, this is a math article, yet it explains a quite complicated concept in a way that appears very simple to me. In short I don't see any problems... -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 11:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please check WP:WIAFA - no criterion says that it should be accesible to the lay reader. Besides, this is one of the most comprehensive presentations of math I've ever seen. Even as a lay man, I'm sure that you can get a very good idea what eigenvectors are and this is more than one should hope from a 5 min. read. AdamSmithee 11:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sure, sure. You folks don't have to do jack-shit basically. That's what you're telling me, eh?? I have to find 6000 references for a philosophy article which cinatined nothign but accted facts about what the person put forth, wheen he did, whi disgreed with him and so on. These thing are all accepted facts withing the philosopcial community.
First of all, cool off. Basically, folks do not have to do "jack-shit" unless they want to because this is unpaid voluntary work AdamSmithee 13:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Heres the relevant section on prose with which I was lambasted in my FAC:

The perfect article “is understandable; it is clearly expressed for both experts and non-experts in appropriate detail, and thoroughly explores and explains the subject.”

Wiki is not a textbook. Prose should be accessible to laypersons and non-experts."

Seriously, some parts of this article sound exctly like my "linear algebra" textbook. There are no cites. This is an actionable objection, I think. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 12:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First. note that I didn't challenge your complaint regarding citations (it doesn't necessarily mean that I fully agree with it, however).
Then, could you be more specific on what parts do you find hard to follow for the layman? However, take into account that people should not get scared of the word vector when they read about eigenvectors. If it would be possible for people to go from no mathematics knowledge to full understanding of eigenvectors after reading an article for 5 mins. everyone would be a math Ph.D. before age 10. AdamSmithee 13:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree that the article should have more inline citations - especially in the "Applications" section, but this is not the main issue with this article. Currently the article reads like a math textbook and probably belongs more to Wikibooks or Wikiversity than Wikipedia. What needs to be written in order for it to become encyclopaedic is a section on the development of eigenvalues. This means something about the creation of eigenvalues and how it has evolved to become what we know today. There should also be some information about what eigenvalues are used for that non math Ph.D.s can understand. You have the section of "Applications", but it is filled with technical terms like "covariance matrix", which alienates a lot of people. I don't suggest that you delete the current "Applications" section, but rather write something that is easier to read, prefably in the top of the article. The last problem I can think of is that the lead section introduces facts that are not otherwise in the rest of the article. --Maitch 10:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I didn't feel well and kind of left the scene afer posting this for a few days there. 1) On the cites, the point that straight-up scientific facts do not generally need to be cited is well-taken. I don't know what the Wikipedia policy is on this. However, I do think there need to be some cites, as indicated by Maitch above, for example. And what exactly is wrong with citing textbooks, anyway?? In fact, if I feel up to it, I can help out in that regard. Fact is, though, this article is actually rougher going (and more mechanical) in many places than my linear algebras textbook. I know the nature of the material puts inherent limits on readabiklity and so on. But I think that, even in math, there is a sort of popular science approach to writing versus textbook style. People (even I who know a little bit about this stuff) should not have to click on every single word in the text to find out what the heck is going on. Take this one example of textbook style writing:
Recall that above we defined the geometric multiplicity of an eigenvector to be the dimension of the associated eigenspace, the nullspace of λI − A. The algebraic multiplicity can also be thought of as a dimension: it is the dimension of the associated generalized eigenspace (1st sense), which is the nullspace of the matrix (λI − A)k for any sufficiently large k. That is, it is the space of generalized eigenvectors (1st sense), where a generalized eigenvector is any vector which eventually becomes 0 if λI − A is applied to it enough times successively
It's extremely formal, passive voice "Recall that above the x of the y located" and obviously technical academic writing. I don't mean to pick on anybody here. In fact, I'm not exactly sure that an article this techincal CAN be simplified in a short time. But I think it can be, in principle. Even within the arera of textbooks, there are those which are more and less readable. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with most of these points. Some parts (e.g., conjugate eigenvalues, eigenfaces) are not standard knowledge and should carry inline citations. I'd even hazard a guess that the last application (to graph theory) is in fact in none of the references. By the way, the problem with inline citations as I see it is that they may distract the reader.
There should be indeed more about the history, which should include the etymology paragraph from the lead. If I have time next week, I might have a look. One of the applications (vibrations) is pretty high up, but should perhaps go even higher, and its practical use more strongly emphasized.
Now, textbook style writing. While everybody agrees that this is inappropriate for an encyclopaedia, it is not clear (at least to me) what "textbook style" actually is. Fortunately, both of you explain what you mean. I'd agree that the fragment shown by Francesco is not brilliant prose. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I added some historical remarks. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, in terms of content, images and all that important stuff, this is simply an outstanding article. I like the addition of the historical stuff, though. More info like that seems to make it more accessible and less textbookish right off the bat. It makes it less intimidating or something. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 14:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just in a quick scan, I see missing topics or topics that are referred to only very obliquely, and at least one gross error; overall, the organization needs re-thinking, too. Defective matrices are not mentioned explicitly, although there are some oblique references to generalized eigenvectors. Simultaneous eigenvectors of commuting matrices, a central concept in physical problems because it ties in to the effect of symmetries on the solution to physical problems (and leads directly into connections with representation theory, e.g. Bloch's theorem and other important results), are not mentioned. It doesn't mention the orthogonality of Hermitian-matrix eigenvectors. Left and right eigenvectors are not defined. The generalized eigenvalue problem seems awfully underdescribed to me, and probably needs an article of its own (e.g. to give analogous properties to ordinary Hermitian eigenproblems, etc.). The normal modes of coupled mechanical oscillators (from coupled pendula to continuous problems like vibrating strings) are probably the most familiar example of eigenmodes of Hermitian matrices/operators, much more familiar than quantum mechanics or stress tensors to most people, and need more description. This is mentioned under "examples" but the explanation is totally wrong: the eigenvalue for standing waves is not the amplitude, it is the frequency (or, more precisely, the frequency squared). Damping corresponds to a complex eigenvalue (complex frequency). —Steven G. Johnson 04:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just a quick comment on your last point, since I see you changed the article in a way which I think is incorrect. I don't think that the eigenvalue is the frequency squared in that context. The section looks at the eigenvalues of the time evolution matrix. So, if the equation of motion is x'' = Ax, then the eigenvalues of exp(At) are considered. Standard is to look at the eigenvalues of A, and these eigenvalues correspond to the frequencies. I think the section needs to be rewritten completely to take a more standard approach. It's an important section, because it's probably the most familiar application of eigenvalues and also historically important. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 03:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's a totally nonstandard way to frame the normal-mode eigenvalue problem. And anyway, exp(At) is not the time-evolution operator since this is a second-order problem (the initial value x(0) alone does not determine the later behavior); you need to write it as a first-order problem (of twice the size) to use a matrix exponential. —Steven G. Johnson 15:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See also my discussion on the Talk page. I stand by my comment that the current discussion is erroneous, or at least grossly misleading. —Steven G. Johnson 15:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That was my idea to introduce the swinging rope as an eigenfunction of the time evolution operator. I think it is better that introducting it as an eigenfunction of the Hamiltonian () because the concept of Hamiltonian is more complex to the layman than the time evolution operator. Like this we can use the nice applet which illustrates the point quite well: one should see directly that the rope remains proportional to itself as time passes by. Vb 08:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This has nothing to do with whether you can use the applet. The point that the oscillation is a constant profile multipled by a sinusoidal oscillation is, of course, still true. Just that the eigenvalue is the frequency, not the "amplitude", which makes little sense as I explained. —Steven G. Johnson 15:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Let's take this to the talk page. Regarding the other points you raised: exactly what to mention is a bit a matter of personal preferences. I agree with defectiveness, I don't understand what you're saying about simultaneous eigenvectors (I know they're important in quantum mechanics, and perhaps the connection between measurement and eigenvectors is worth mentioning, but you seem to be talking about something else), and I think the generalized eigenvalue problem is discussed in sufficient detail (though a separate article would of course be nice). Anyway, it's easy to think of topics to add, but we also have to keep the article within a reasonable size. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 12:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, you don't understand what he's saying about simultaneous eigenvectors, eh?? Seriosly, is this the same thing as quantum superposition?? Good 'eavens!! --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 12:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
When two Hermitian/unitary (or at least non-defective?) operators or matrices commute, a set of eigenvectors can be chosen that are eigenvectors of both operators simultaneously. This is a fundamental fact about eigenvectors, not limited to simultaneous observables in quantum mechanics, and its consequences are far-reaching. As one example, when an eigenproblem corresponding to some system (whether quantum or classical) has a physical symmetry (e.g. it is rotationally invariant), this means that the unitary transformation operator corresponding to the symmetry commutes with the eigenproblem. This means that the eigenvectors of the system can be chosen to be eigenvectors of the symmetry; more generally, one can show that the eigenvectors of the system can be chosen to transform as irreducible representations of the symmetry group. (The simplest example of this is that the eigenvectors of a system with a mirror symmetry, a cyclic group of order 2, are either even or odd. As another example, matrices invariant under cyclic shifts are diagonalized by the discrete Fourier transform.) This is perhaps the key theorem for the consequences of symmetry on such a problem. —Steven G. Johnson 15:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that there are only so many topics that one can add. However, an article on eigenproblems should at least list (in abbreviated form) all of the relevant definitions and general properties of eigenproblems. Of course, many of these will link to other articles for the detailed explanation, but there should be a summary or at least a mention. (Think of it this way: the article should contain at least as much information as the table of contents of a book on eigenproblems.) Some omissions, like orthogonality of eigenvectors for Hermitian/unitary operators, and the definition of left/right eigenvectors for non-symmetric problems, are particularly glaring to me. As for the generalized eigenproblem, my problem is that there is no explanation whatever as to why it is useful, just a baldfaced claim that it is "preferable". (e.g. if A and B are Hermitian and B is positive-definite, then one can prove analogues of the usual real eigenvalues, orthogonal eigenvectors, etc., properties from the generalized eigenproblem. These properties are not apparent if one writes it in B-1A non-Hermitian form. On the other hand, if A and B are near-singular, the generalized eigenproblem can be inherently numerically unstable, regardless of how it is solved [2].) —Steven G. Johnson 15:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to FARC for more work. The article has a lot of prose and syntactical problems, too many stubby sections, poor layout of sentences vs. formulas, and needs a better copyedit for basic items like punctuation. It seems like a native English-speaker should do a thorough copyedit. Some examples (there are more):
    • The exponential growth or decay provides an example of a continuous spectrum and the vibrating string an example above.
    • However, in the case we only look for the bound state solutions of the Schrödinger equation, as is usually the case in quantum chemistry, we look for ΨE within the space of square integrable functions.
    • In this notation. the Schrödinger equation is

and call an eigenstate of H (sometimes written in introductory textbooks) which is a self adjoint operator, the infinite dimensional analog of Hermitian matrices (see Observable).

    • Tighten up weasle words:
      • In this case, the term eigenvector is used in a somewhat more general meaning, since the Fock operator is explicitly dependent of the orbitals and their eigenvalues.
    • Redundancies:
      • In image processing, processed images of faces can be seen as vectors whose components are the brightnesses of each pixel.
  • Very hard to read, and not because of the math, but because of the English.

Sandy 04:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are citations (1c) and accessibility of prose (2 and 4). Marskell 11:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status? This article has received some work since I last looked at it (diff), but the English/prose issues haven't been addressed. I don't have time to work on it: I'm wondering if we can scare up someone to do a serious copyedit of the English/grammar/prose issues? Sandy 13:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Remove I'm the one who nominated this, so I suppose I should say something. I'd hate to vote this one down because I really do think it contains much high-quality content and is very informative in places. Having said that, it looks like no one is attempting to address any of the objections that have been posted. Nothing is being done at all!! Don't know what to make of the situation.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 08:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Changed to remove. I REALLY hate to do this. But here are my reasons: Since I made the previous comment, the only things that have been addressed are very superfical and mostly done by me (e.g. the examples listed by SandyGeorgia). I just don't see any genuine effort here. I realize that people are very busy, this is all voluntary work, etc., but we have to judge the overall progress of the article.
  • There is very little change and the article has been out here for quite some time. The discussion also seems to have been sidetracked, to some extent, onto issues of content which I am not qualified to judge.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I asked someone, who may have time over the weekend, to try to do some work on it. Sandy 03:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a request for vols at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics. --Salix alba (talk) 07:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove, reluctantly, because there's good in this article. This is a difficult topic for most readers, so there's a strong need to make it as simple and clear as possible. It would help if the prose were written to a uniformly "professional" standard, as required, and were more accessible in places. Here are examples of glitches in the prose that make it yet more difficult for our readers:
    • "The spectral theorem depicts the importance of the eigenvalues and eigenvectors for characterizing a linear transformation in a unique way." No, a theorum doesn't depict; it might describe. Why not "... for uniquely characterizing a linear transformation."?
    • "A standing wave in a rope fixed at its boundaries can be seen as an example of an eigenvector,..."—Why the hedging? Can't it be "A standing wave in a rope fixed at its boundaries is an example of an eigenvector,..."?
    • "... and even a variety of nonlinear situations." "Even" and "a variety of" are clashing. Just "even in nonlinear situations." This is right at the top.
    • Lots of stubby paragraphs. Tony 01:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status: Given that this received extensive comments in the first period, I've gone and notified four users that time's up. Hopefully a few more comments will role in. Marskell 19:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: As per Sandy's request, I took a look. The mathematics is mostly sound, but I would be inclined to make substantial modifications to the overall structure, since right now the flow is a bit rough. The intro and history are excellent, but as soon as we hit the definitions, it's a bit too much too fast. It might be better to say something like: "Given a physical or mathematical problem, one may think of eigenvectors as basic waves for this problem. The eigenvalue corresponding to an eigenvector is a measure of the importance of this basic wave. For example..." and then you move everything under "applications", the spectrum of chlorine and maybe the stuff under "examples" in that section. You will have to work on the text to make it go smoothly and shorten it. I would stick all the math in a second section and I might shorten it. The idea of this structure is that in math papers, you put the big ideas in the first few pages of the paper, because nobody reads past page 3 anyway. The thing about math is that you can't write a paragraph that is simultaneously useful to laypeople and experts. You can write A Brief History of Time or you can write Lectures on physics, but there isn't much in between. I have noticed that lots of people use Wikipedia math articles as starting points, if you strip all the math out, they won't be able to do that anymore.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to do this substantial rewrite (papers are due and all.)

I have no opinion of whether this article meets Wikipedia Featured Article standards.

Loisel 17:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Remove. It doesn't look like anyone is willing to take on this article and do the major rewrite needed: Loisel's and Tony's reviews confirm what I see in the article; that is, the problems are not in the math, but in the prose and the article organization. Improving this article involves more than copyediting the prose issues: it really needs an overall rewrite and restructuring. Sandy 15:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Single Transferable Vote

previous FAR

Liberal Party (Utah)

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Talk messages left at User talk:JonMoore, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Utah and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics. Sandy 21:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article really doesn't meet current featured standards.

  • no inline citations and really not much in the way of references at all
  • doesn't meet criterion 2a
  • doesn't feel comprehensive - I get the feeling that there's quite a bit more that could be said about the topic
  • obsolete copyright tags on images
  • could do with being generally reorganised, as the two-section format looks a bit odd (for one, the history section seems to start halfway through the story)

Time to remove? Rebecca 06:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • All the problems Rebecca has touched upon do indeed need to be addressed for the article to reach current FA standards. LuciferMorgan 21:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • For one: I think it is unfair to change the standards midstream, especially on an article that hasn't changed much since it was FA. Second, this article is probably one of the most comprehensive on the subject in existence, anywhere. Information on this subject is VERY hard to come by as proven by the original author's need to use a Master's thesis as a source. Anything else would amount to original research. I can go fix the picture tags if you like, sonce they are all old enough that there is no copyright. —JonMoore 17:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The standards have changed greatly over time, and that is the primary reason why this page exists: to remove those FAs which are no longer up to current standards. I'd be surprised if there wasn't some more that could be included in at least the three listed references (and that's assuming that there are no others); at the very least pinpoint citations and some tightening of the prose need to happen. Rebecca 09:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is a very obscure subject. That's the main reason the article has barely changed since it was made FA. There are some small references to the Liberal Party in passing, mostly in books about the history of Salt Lake or Utah, but at most it's given a paragraph or two. I can probably find the two books mentioned for citations, but the master's thesis is at the library of the University of Utah, and since I'm not a student there, I probably can't access it. The original author of the article no longer contributed to Wikipedia, and inline citation didn't even exist when the article was made featured. This article is simply the most thorough treatment of this subject I've ever seen. I could try to tighten the prose, but I think I reads very well right now. The only complaint I really agree with here is the no inline citations. I will try my best to fix this, but it might be difficult. —JonMoore 16:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status? Three edits since it was nominated (one was Tony), lacking in citations, no progress, move to FARC. Sandy 10:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt any more on this subject could be said without original research, but if it pleases you I could dig up inline cites. Also, I'd appreciate it if someone changed the damn image tags instead of idly complain about them since it's blatantly obvious they're very old (or in one case, US government survey, as it says). Thanks. Cool Hand Luke 08:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are citations (1c), comprehensiveness (1b), copyright problems (3), and writing quality (1a). Marskell 10:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove - Lacks inline citations (1c). Also, it's length is too short to meet the criteria for FA (1b). LuciferMorgan 08:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • How can something be too short, if that's all there is to say on the subject? Should someone go out and dig up some original research and break that rule? This article, as stated above is probably one of the most comprehensive on the subject. Please produce a source that we have overlooked so we can make it more comprehensive. —JonMoore 01:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • There are plenty of things that are not explained. Just because further research is difficult to do (for one, no one has even gone back to the original thesis source) does not make the existing article comprehensive when it is not. Rebecca 10:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove. Short article, inadequately developped and consisting just of two big sections; this is not the recommended structure of a FA. Very few references. No inline citations.--Yannismarou 18:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I think you people are being very unreasonable. This is a good article, very comprehensive for the subject. How do you know it's not comprehensive? Are you experts on Utah history? How do you know there are more sources on the subject? Can you produce them? I'd be very happy for you to. I'd love to add more info to the article, if it exists. Not every subject is going to be the same length. Conciseness is sometimes better. —JonMoore 01:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Firstly, no one has even gone back to the original source to see if more could be added; without so much as that, there is no way this article can be deemed comprehensive. Secondly, we realise that there are times when information may be unable to be found, but the article needs to actually be able to spell out what is unknown - see Makuria for a good example of how to deal with topics with sparse source information. It's not concise at the moment - it's vague. Rebecca 13:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • First read FA criteria and then say if we are unreasonable or not. Inline citations are one of the most important FA criteria for about 18 months now. Where are they in the article? The article may be good, but this does not mean that it deserves FA status. You ask us to find sources. But this is not our obligation! This is the obligation of the editors of the article! If they cannot produce the sources FA status demands, I'm sorry! So, don' ask us things we are not obliged to do. And do not confuse FA status with GA status.--Yannismarou 08:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Memory Alpha

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Talk messages left at User talk:Jibbajabba and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Star Trek. Sandy 20:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I understand it must be tough to write an up to date, well referenced article on something as changing as a Wiki, this article has devolved (and wasn't completely FA quality to begin with) IMO. The article has very few references, I saw an inline link with a quick overview, and an entire unsourced section with an OR tag on it. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am very wary of any article that uses almost no sources other than those offered by the subject of the article itself. Every reference here is from the Memory Alpha website itself, or from its founder. The only other references are brief mentions in two small local newspapers. This lack of critical sources (not "critical" in the sense of "presenting a negative/opposing view", but "critical" in the sense of examining and reacting to the subject) troubles me. Has Memory Alpha ever been subject to such examination in major mainstream press outlets, or in major science-fiction-fandom publications? Andrew Levine 23:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added the OR tag back in April, and the section still hasn't been fixed. This article is really not up to FA level, nor is there much work actively occuring to improve it. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 07:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status? One inconsequential edit since nominated, no one is working on this article, severely lacking in citations, and still has OR tag. Move to FARC. Sandy 09:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are insufficent references and possible original research (1c). Marskell 08:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Piccadilly Circus

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Messages left at User talk:Juntung, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography, and Wikipedia talk:UK Wikipedians' notice board. Sandy 22:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The prose is not quite brilliant (2a), particularly in the Piccadilly Circus in popular culture section. The delegation of content to sub-articles makes me question whether the article is as comprehensive as it could be, especially as some of the delegation seems a bit unnecessary (2b). The references need improvement as well (inline citations perferable, while we're at upgrading references) (2c). -- tariqabjotu 00:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are writing quality (1a), comprehensiveness (1b), and citations (1c). Marskell 08:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Victoria of the United Kingdom

previous FAR

Art competitions at the Olympic Games

Article is still a featured article.

This is a pretty old featured article and it's simply no longer up to snuff according to current guidelines. It only has two sources and it doesn't even cite them inline in the text properly. It kind of reads more like a laundry list of various medals awarded for various competitions than a good high quality article. --Cyde Weys 04:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Remove. Two sources isn't nearly good enough for an article that size. - Mgm|(talk) 12:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove As per above. Two sources? Come on! --SpacemanAfrica 18:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep - This is still a great article. Those 'two sources' are multipage in length and cover all the parts in the article well (one source is a 400 page book on exactly this topic!!). Since when has there been a requirement that we only use a whole bunch of small sources and shun the use of a smaller number of more substantial ones? The inline cite criterion was also added after this article was FAd. --mav 05:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ultimately, adding more refs would not hurt (and I strongly urge that anyone familiar with the material and the references use Inline Citations), and external links would be nice - but I am inclined to agree with Daniel that its about quality of references, not quantity. Consequently, I will not defeature this article based on references, unless the references provided are unreliable (which someone would need to definitively prove, by the way). As for the choppy prose noted by Cyde, it's not enough by itself to warrant defeaturing. I am not speedy keeping this article, however - if anyone can find further reason for removal, feel free to present it. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 06:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Inline citations" are still not a requirement, unless there has been a very recent change and I missed all of the discussion. References are a requirement, but they can be by "Harvard" style or footnotes or inline notes. Further, something like that is not enough to knock off an FA, and the people who put cookie cutters up to FA's are missing something (something really important). Geogre 03:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep one of the older FAs and per mav --Jaranda wat's sup 22:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove as per nominator, and because the writing is substandard. Here's an example:
"When the first post-war Olympic Games were held in war ravaged Belgium, art contests were again on the programme, although they were little more than a sideshow. This was different for the 1924 Summer Olympics in Paris. The contests were taken seriously for the first time, and 193 artists submitted works. Remarkably, this figure also includes three Soviet artists, even though the Soviet Union officially did not take part in the Olympic Games, which they considered to be a "bourgeois" festival.'
    • war-ravaged
    • sideshow comment might be POV, and in any case needs to be referenced
    • Paris sentence stubby, and needs to be smoothly integrated into the surrounding sentences
    • also includes—also is redundant
    • they is a problem

Tony 08:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep: The above paragraph is of excellent standard. Business writing is ugly, business is tedious, and apparently we're having trouble understading intensifiers, typographic variation due to nation ("programme" is British; why not pick on that, too, as "war-ravaged" and "war ravaged" are not only an Atlantic case but also a choice in emphasis), ability of authors to read and represent their works fairly, and we cannot tell when the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics can be represented as a plural with validity, and, of course, most of all, because having the prose not fit one's Procrustean style sheet is not a valid reason to object to promotion of an article, much less a valid reason to wish to strip an article of its status. Geogre 23:24, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - it would be nice to have citations for some of the specific factual statements (for example: number of artists exhibited; that the Soviets considered the Games "bourgeois"; controversy over sales of works at Amsterdame; visitor numbers in LA) - if the two references are 400-page works, it would be nice to have page numbers. But these are only "nice to have"s not "must have"s for me. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fred Phelps

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Message left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography plange 05:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article seems to have degenerated since it was featured (yet to appear on the main page), the lead has blown out, at least 2 methods for citing references are in use, and heaps of short section have been added. Needs to be cleaned up to be inline with the current criteria.--Peta 04:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--I agree that it does need a bit of clean-up (like Phelps' height being in the opening, not very important). Maybe rid of/move/condense the smaller sections.

  • Here's what has been done thus far—precious little. Paragraphing needs attention (there are stubbies), and so does the sectioning. I'd be most uneasy if this appeared on the front page. Makes me sick to read it, and somehow it needs to announce NPOV a little more explicitly at the start. Needs almost an anthropological angle—or something. Tony 15:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move quickly to FARC. I just went in to clean up some refs, and found instead what looks like a pretty serious violation of WP:BLP. Although on first glance it looks like the article is well referenced, there are some very critical remarks with no references at all, and most of the references point to the same source (one book, Addicted to Hate, or websites about that book), or to less than reliable sources. The criticism in the article is not soundly referenced, it looks like a replay of that one book, and could be a big WP:BLP problem waiting to happen. I suggest it needs more attention than FARC, but I don't know that Wiki has set up a place to deal with BLP problems. Sandy 22:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are format and quality of references (1c), paragraph and section (4), and POV (1d). Marskell 07:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Remove as per previous reviewers. Tony 15:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Commonwealth of Nations

Article is no longer a featured article

Review commentary

Messages left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics and Template talk:WPMILHIST Announcements. Sandy 15:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article was promoted to FA status back in February 2005. But it suffers from lack of footnotes for an important article. In addition to some POV sentences like this eulogy in the lead: The Commonwealth is not a political union, and does not allow the United Kingdom (UK) to exercise any power over the affairs of the organisation's other members.' CG 16:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One reference from 1960. That is completely inadequate for this subject. Punctured Bicycle 18:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cedar, is that sentence POV? Doesn't appear to be, although you might take issue with it in other respects. Tony 02:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yess, I admit, it's not that serious POV issue. I meant that this kind of subject must have a lot of criticisms which the lead does not mention. Therefore the lead does not summarise the article. Instead it seems that it defends the organisation. Anyway I might see it in my own prespective :-) CG 07:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are lack of citations (1c) and POV (1d). Marskell 18:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove. Someone's had a poke around, but the issues have not been addressed. Tony 05:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove.Insufficient inline citations.--Yannismarou 18:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove. The diff seems to indicate 3 inline cites have been added during FAR. Inadequate citing, and weasle words, for example: The Commonwealth has often been likened to an English gentlemen's club, and the issue of who is and who is not a member often seems to be more important, and certainly attracts much more attention, than what the organisation actually does. This is because the main benefit of membership is the opportunity for close and relatively frequent interaction, on an informal and equal basis, between members who share many ties of language, culture, and history. Sandy 23:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Now that's a clanger; unfortunately, it's not the only one .... Tony 01:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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