Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, Buidhe and Hog Farm—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared, after at least one reviewer has suggested it be withdrawn.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed.

An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations may be allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback.

Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}.

Table of ContentsThis page: Purge cache

Featured content:

Featured article candidates (FAC)

Featured article review (FAR)

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:


How to nominate an article

Nomination procedure

  1. Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. The featured article toolbox (at right) can help you check some of the criteria.
  2. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page.
  3. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance.
  4. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page.
  5. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Commenting, etc[edit]

Commenting, supporting and opposing

Supporting and opposing

  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.


The Widows of Culloden[edit]

Nominator(s): ♠PMC(talk) 01:13, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm back with another round of work by British designer Alexander McQueen. This time it's his second Scottish-themed collection, The Widows of Culloden (Autumn/Winter 2006), a mature and measured counterpart to the angry Highland Rape collection of 1995. Widows is well-known as some of McQueen's best work for its emotional narrative, balance of artistic and commercial concerns, and the glorious illusion of Kate Moss that closed the show. Although it has been neearly twenty years since its debut, it remains a popular subject of scholarly analysis from all kinds of critical lenses. I hope you find it as haunting as I do. ♠PMC(talk) 01:13, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Reserving a seat. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 04:12, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Just a drive-by comment to start with: the lead sentence doesn't actually tell me what the subject is. It says it's a collection (of what?) by a designer (of what?) for a fashion house but I have to read between the lines to figure out that we're talking about clothes. Also, while I'm here, JuneGloom07 might find this interesting. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Collection" is a common enough term for a bundle of thematically-related clothing presented as a set ([1], under "line") that don't think readers need it spelled out in detail, especially with the context given by "fashion house". What else do fashion houses make but fashion? By analogy, we don't spell out that an album is a bundle of songs issued as a set. I think this falls under the same umbrella. ♠PMC(talk) 23:25, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Antlered_white_gown_from_Widows_of_Culloden.jpg: is the copyright owner listed the owner of the dress design, the photo, or both?
  • The photo. As far as I can tell, fashion designs are not copyrighted in the UK ([2], [3]), but I've added the detail that McQueen is the designer.
  • File:MacQueen_tartan_(Vestiarium_Scoticum).svg: if this 2D pattern was simply copied from the given source it wouldn't warrant a new copyright, but our article on the given source states it is a forgery?
  • I don't see how that would matter for copyright purposes. The book was published in 1842. It was purported to be a book of 15th century designs, which has long been disputed as nonsense by scholars. Despite the book's origins as a bunch of BS, the tartan patterns within it have been adopted as "official" tartans by many Scottish families. But regardless, they're too old to copyright.
  • The forgery issue is more a question of accuracy. As regards copyright, I agree they are too old to copyright - which is why the current tagging doesn't make sense to me. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:11, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Basically what's happened with the Vestarium is that it was bullshit when it was published, but has become truth with time. There's little evidence that there was ever any such thing as an "official clan tartan". Then the book comes out sounding all official and it really resonates in Scottish culture for various reasons. People start using the clan tartans from the book as though they were true history, and over time, they actually did become associated with their respective clans - an invented tradition, but a tradition nonetheless for close to two centuries now.
    As to the copyright tag, I think it makes sense, since it's not a book scan. It's a replicated form of a non-copyrightable pattern, made by the uploader.
  • File:Donald_Urquhart,_head_stalker_on_Inverewe_estate_01.png needs a US tag and author date of death.
  • I spent like an hour trying to figure out more details about this image, and I couldn't, so I've just saved myself the energy and replaced it with File:-Spying_in_Glenfeshie-_MET_DP148525.jpg, which was created in 1858 so it's well into PD by any stretch.
  • Ditto File:Havisham.jpg
  • Done
  • File:Illusion_of_Kate_Moss_from_Widows_of_Culloden.gif needs a stronger FUR
  • Can you clarify which aspect doesn't suffice? I'm happy to do it but it's hard if I don't know what seems to be missing.
  • I've had a crack at explaining myself, thoughts? ♠PMC(talk) 05:08, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Harpi.PNG: source link is dead, missing author of the original work (and their date of death), needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:18, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from ErnestKrause[edit]

Good research for this article, and its nice to see you read Judith Watt's book on him. Some comments to start:

(1) Lead section seems a little long. Not just the five paragraph length which should be reduced to four paragraphs, but some of the wording might be tightened a bit. Let the well-researched article speak for itself a little more.
(2) As I recall, this was among his last 4-5 shows before his death. As such, something should be said about this being not only in the later half of his career of works, but also that it was among his last significant fashion statements prior to his death.
(3) Is the article really served well by have 5-6 red links throughout the text? Even if you are planning to do some of the other show in the future, could the red links be left out for now. I'm understanding the usefulness of 1-2 red links, but you have more that 5-6 red links.

That should get things started. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:52, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Barry Sanders[edit]

Nominator(s): NSNW (talk) 23:49, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Barry Sanders is a former running back for the Detroit Lions American football franchise, playing mostly in the 1990s. This is a Level 5 Vital Article in Sports Figures, and I believe it is up to FA standards. I've been working on it off and on for about a year I think, and got it to GA status last June. After further improvements I'm ready to give it the test. This is also my first FA nomination, though I have nominated (and promoted) a FL candidate some time ago; so if there are moments where I don't exactly know what you are talking about then please be patient with me. NSNW (talk) 23:49, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First-time nomination[edit]

  • Hi NSNW, just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:54, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Captions need editing for grammar
    • Trimmed up the caption on the Jets logo image, that was the only one that looked like it needed editing.
  • File:Barry_Sanders_HOF_bust.jpg: what is the copyright status of the bust? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:10, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • The image itself was under a CC License, but after taking a closer look at the Freedom of panorama in the United States jurisdiction, where the photo was taken, only buildings and architecture are non-copyrightable. I removed the image just to be safe. NSNW (talk) 17:35, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Burnley F.C. in international football[edit]

Nominator(s): Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 08:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Burnley have played several seasons in international football, as recently as in 2018. The article includes early overseas tours (including to Madagascar and Mauritius), the battle of Naples, and a glamorous tie v Celtic in the Anglo-Scottish Cup which turned out not to be so charming. This article passed the GA process two and a half years ago. Since then, I’ve trimmed it down a bit here and there, but expanded the overseas tours and minor international competitions sections. All comments will be appreciated! Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 08:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "Burnley's following campaign in a European club competition came six years later" => "Burnley's next campaign in a European club competition came six years later"
  • "involving sides from England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland" => "involving sides from England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" (in two places)
  • "Burnley later competed in Anglo-Scottish Cup" => "Burnley later competed in the Anglo-Scottish Cup"
  • "Scottish Cup winner Celtic also made a trip to the continent" => "Scottish Cup winners Celtic also made a trip to the continent"
  • "Burnley was the third English club" => "Burnley were the third English club"
  • "with the match played over one leg" - I would suggest "with the final played as a single match" would be better (in two places)
  • "The team defeated Preston North End (3–2) and Blackpool (3–1), and drew with Blackburn Rovers (1–1)" - does this relate to 1978-79? It's unclear. If so, I would start with "In that season"
  • "including a 3–1 win in the Old Firm" => "including a 3–1 win in the Old Firm match"
  • Think that's all I got -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:51, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Terminator 2: Judgment Day[edit]

Nominator(s): Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 21:06, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the 1991 science fiction action film that pretty much defines Arnold Schwarzenegger's career. Easily one of the greatest action films and science fiction tales of all time that created THREE iconic characters, an insane feat. Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 21:06, 31 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Drive-by comments by TompaDompa[edit]

I may or may not find the time to give this a more thorough look later, but for now I have a couple of notes:

  • It is in general a good idea, when dealing with articles about films, to try to use photos of actors that are fairly close in time to the film itself. People age, after all. All photos of actors in this article are from between 2009 and 2019, i.e. between 18 and 28 years after the film was released. The actors all look very different from how they look in the film. I realize that it might not be entirely easy to find better images for all of them, but at least for Schwarzenegger it should not be a tall order.
  • There are no fewer than 7 images that are just photographs of people. Adding more photographs of people rather quickly runs into diminishing returns, and this is past that point. At minimum, there should not be two photos of Patrick.
  • The "Cultural influence" section is a bit dubious in terms of MOS:POPCULT (or equivalently, WP:PROPORTION). Examples of references to T2 in other media should come from sources about T2, not sources about the media the references appear in.
  • "included in the 2013 film reference book 1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die" – the 2013 edition was not the only or the first edition it appeared in. To the best of my knowledge, it has appeared in every single edition.

TompaDompa (talk) 16:46, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've made most of these changes, the only thing in the Cultural influence section that seems relevant to your comment is the one sentence about references to it in other media, which doesn't seem undue, it's a single sentence referring other popular IP that took influence from it. Unfortunately youre not going to find many reliable sources that talk about T2 and bring up external media references unless it's to do with the Simpsons hedge meme. It seems a proportionate and fair amount of content toward that topic, it's certainly not an In Popular Culture section. As for pictures, anything from the actual time period is not going to be free to use because any photos taken back then are going to be 99% professional photographers, I've gone as contemporary as I can possibly go while not using images that are fuzzy or facing out of the article. Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 22:43, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If reliable sources about T2 don't bring up external media references, covering them in this article is out of WP:PROPORTION by definition, really. It seems reasonable to me to mention Patrick's cameo in Wayne's World and the Stallone poster in Last Action Hero (even if the sourcing is not the strongest), but "Terminator 2: Judgment Day has been referenced to in a variety of media, including television (including American Dad, Rick and Morty, Stranger Things, and The Simpsons), films (including Ready Player One and Scream 2), and video games (including Cyberpunk 2077, Doom, Grand Theft Auto Online, Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty, and Mortal Kombat 11)." is just a laundry list. The Black Panther: Wakanda Forever stuff is also questionable and comes off as an example of WP:RECENTISM. TompaDompa (talk) 14:33, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not sure the Black Panther 2 reference is recentism. I would generally include references to filmmakers who said they were influenced by a film or who rated it highly but finding those types of sources is not easy as it's generally not the focus of an interview, just a one off question some filmmakers get asked (such as Spielberg's recent comments on The Dark Knight), but Coogler states clearly that T2 was a big influence on his film, which is a big film in a significant franchise and demonstrates its lasting influence on filmmakers over 30 years later. I've removed the links to the other references, although some of them, such as The Simpsons and Family Guy have done fairly extensive parodies of the film.Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 16:01, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Terminator_2_-_3D_Entrance_Universal_Studios_Florida.jpg needs a tag for the work pictured
  • File:A._Schwarzenegger_(3x4a).jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi Nikki, for the A._Scwarzenegger one, do you mean the archive url isn't sufficient or it didn't load? It didn't work for me first time but I reloaded and it came up. For the ride image, sorry, I'm not 100% what you mean. I'm just gonna remove the ride logo because I never know how to find the right tags, searching fair use doesn't ever get me to the right place. I do think it's too generic a design to be copyrightable since it's just font and that font is apparently called Earth and has been around since the 1970s. Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 23:28, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Nominator(s): Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:18, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about one of the last Western Roman emperors, who was installed at the end of a long line of Ricimer's puppets (although it was Ricimer's nephew that would appoint him, given the death of Ricimer just prior). He ruled very briefly before being deposed by the Eastern Roman Empire, and subsequently was sent into the priesthood. He holds the dubious distinction of being the last Western Roman emperor to issue a law, although said law appears to have been so popular it was upheld even in areas he had no authority to issue them to. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:18, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review


  • "the historian Penny MacGeorge summates" - "summates" is a weird word with which I am not familiar. Could we use a less obscure word?
  • "Glycrius is known" - name spelt wrong
  • "the 6th-century Jordanes and Ennodius" - might be better as "the 6th-century wrtiers [or whatever word is appropriate] Jordanes and Ennodius"
    The main concern here is that Jordanes was a writer and Ennodius was a bishop whos notes have been very important; I've added their titles separately, I think it still makes sense.
  • "The 9th-century Theophanes" - as above
  • "The 7th-century John of Antioch" - as above
  • "Glycerius seems to have never to have attracted" - repeated words
  • "the Eastern Roman Empire, who he served" => "the Eastern Roman Empire, which he served"
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @ChrisTheDude: All should be done, thanks! Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:51, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:53, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Unlimitedlead[edit]

I'll save my spot here. Comments to follow over the next few days. Unlimitedlead (talk) 00:59, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • "...and power behind the throne Gundobad" I think this would sound smoother as "Gundobad, the power behind the throne"
  • Maybe the Italy link would work better as Roman Italy or Odoacer#King of Italy.
  • Provide an appropriate link for Eastern Roman?
  • Link Julius Nepos. Also consider breifly introducing Nepos (i.e. "his successor Julius Nepos")
    Where do you see Julius Nepos not linked and introduced? He is linked in body, lede, and infobox, that I can see. I've added a little more detail in the lede and body, however. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Glycerius was born in Dalmatia,[1][2] his family is unknown..." This comma should be a period, or you need to add a conjunction.
  • "may not have been an aristocratic family, but rather one of low birth" You can just say he was of low birth.
  • Ditto with the second Italy link (see above).
  • Delink Vincentius. It leads to a generic page about the name, not the person.
    Changed to redlink, he may have an article someday.
  • Link Rome (if referring to the city).
  • "It is believed that Glycerius primarily reigned from northern Italy, as all but one coin found from his reign were minted in either Ravenna or Milan." Do we know why this is believed? Also, this paragraph is lacking in terms of sources. I would advise periodically spreading them out.
    It's believed because of the coin thing, basically; that the administrative center shifted away from Rome as coins were now being made mostly in northern Italy. I would hardly call it lacking; it's just cited to an entire academic review of Glycerius, that has no page numbers. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Introduce Malchus before mentioning him (i.e. "the Byzantine historian Malchus")

That's all from me. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:45, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Unlimitedlead: Done or responded to all. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Looks fine to me. I'll support this nomination. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:53, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Further reading should be a separate section from References
  • Are the primary sources listed actually used as sources? If no, they can go with Further reading
  • Page ranges should be written in full
  • Why are the two Mathisen refs formatted differently? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:49, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Nikkimaria: Should all be fixed now. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:03, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review.

  • I can't say that I am a fan of writing parts of the article in Latin and then translating these bits in parentheses. This is the English language Wikipedia, why is the article not written in English throughout?
  • And, if some is to be in Latin, how do you decide which bits?
    I have done this where the title itself is in Latin, rather than English, and avoided it where there is no strict Latin title to be used. For instance "magister militum" carries a meaning deeper than just "general"; if a person is a magister militum, they should be referred to as such, as far as I am concerned. Where they are just called a general, I call them a general. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:56, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    And, in part, most HQRS follow this same formula; some don't even feel the need to give a gloss for that title. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:58, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Leaving that aside for now, all foreign language words need to be in lang templates.
@Gog the Mild: Added language templates for the works. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:39, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "events of his reign are known other than that during his reign an attempted". Could we avoid "of his reign" twice in one sentence.
  • "Glycerius also prevented an invasion by the Ostrogoths through gifts." How does one do that? Pile them up and use them as defensive works?
  • "nominated Julius Nepos (r. 474–475/480) as Emperor". Perhaps '... as Western Emperor'?
  • "He died sometime after 474". Well, yes. Perhaps delete "sometime after 474"?
  • Infobox: "Roman emperor of the West". Is that the usual way of saying that? 'Emperor of the Western Roman Empire' sounds more like how I have seen it in the sources.
    It is not (technically) incorrect, but ascribes it to a unified-but-divided model that didn't really exist by this time; changed as you suggested.
  • "the assassination of Julius Nepos in 480." Why not just 'Nepos'?
  • The bibliography is not in alphabetical order.
  • Is there a date for either Mathisen?
    Added; the new version of the DIR website is super annoying in that it removes the original publication date of the source, have to go digging through to find it now.
    @Gog the Mild: Should all be done. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:56, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "His family is unknown, and may not have been an aristocratic family". You don't need "family" twice in one sentence.
  • "Western Roman emperor Olybrius ... Western Roman emperor Majorian". Upper case E?
  • Any link for "consular year"? Perhaps Roman consul#Consular dating?
    Done (also made a redirect for it)

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:24, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Battle of Utica (203 BC)[edit]

Nominator(s): Gog the Mild (talk) 20:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Another article from the Second Punic War. The beginning of the end for the Carthaginians, as a Roman army invades their homeland in North Africa and takes apart their army in a tricksy surprise night attack. Extensively worked on by myself, it has just passed its GAN. Hopefully you will consider it worth a look over at FAC. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Iazyges[edit]

Reviewed at GAN, happy to Support at FAC. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:22, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks Iazyges, appreciated. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:30, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up the maps and/or including a legend in the caption
  • File:Scenes_from_the_Battle_of_Zama_MET_149866.jpg needs a tag for the original work
  • File:Map_of_Rome_and_Carthage_at_the_start_of_the_Second_Punic_War_Modified.svg: see MOS:COLOUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:13, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Unlimitedlead[edit]

Comments to follow over the next few days. Unlimitedlead (talk) 03:38, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Regarding citations one and two, do they support the bust being of Scipio rather than Sulla? If not, does there really need to be two, or even any?
They do. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. I would be happy to lose them, but some editors get excited about that sort of thing.
  • "the allied armies of Carthaginian and Numidian" sounds very strange. Perhaps you meant to say "the allied armies of Carthage and Numidia".
Yeah. I have already tweaked that. No idea what I was thinking.
  • Maybe Roman army would be appropriate somewhere in the lead? I was thinking "Appointed consul in 205 BC Scipio spent a year in Sicily training his army and accumulating supplies", but that's just a suggestion.
Ho hum. Done, despite my feeling that it's Easter eggy.
Now usually I go along with reviewers on links, even when I think that it is over-linking. But, really, how many readers do you think are going to think "I could do with knowing more about this camp" and click on it? And how disappointed are they going to be when they see what they get referred to? It seems both WP:OVERLINK and WP:EASTEREGG, nevertheless I will if you wish, but are you sure.
Any linking I ever recommend on FAC is optional. Feel free to carry on. Unlimitedlead (talk) 13:15, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Four years later, Rome seized Sardinia and Corsica on a cynical pretence..." This is rather vague: what is meant by a "cynical pretence"? Did the Romans just take the islands by force for no reason?

Yes. See Mercenary War#War#Sardinia for a brief account, or Treaty of Lutatius#Treaty#Sardinia and Corsica for a fuller.

  • Just as I've stated on another FAR, it could be wise to briefly introduce Hannibal. Maybe "n 219 BC a Carthaginian army under the general Hannibal besieged, captured and sacked Saguntum"
Quite right. I have gone with "In 219 BC Hannibal, the de facto ruler of Carthaginian Iberia, led an army to Saguntum and besieged, captured and sacked it."
  • "There was also extensive fighting in Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal)" You have already stated that Iberia is modern Spain and Portugal in the Pre-war section.
  • "In 210 BC Roman reinforcements stabilised the situation;[23] Later that year Publius Cornelius Scipio..." After the semicolon, "Later" should not be capitalized.
I think not. If it were linked to something, citizenship seems more appropriate.
  • In note 4, you say " (Which was largely reserved for inhabitants of the city of Carthage.)"; I think this belongs as part of the sentence itself, rather than a separate end statement. If you do keep it in parentheses, please de-capitalize "Which" and place the period after the parentheses.
I removed the parentheses and it didn't work. I tweaked it and it still didn't work. So they're back. (And, as a whole independent sentence, it is capitalised and ends in a .)
  • I just saw "(The latter were usually Numidians.)", and I'm starting to question myself. Maybe statements in parentheses do go outside the sentence.
  • If you linked Gaul earlier in the article (according to my previous comment), delink the one in "As well both Iberia and Gaul provided..."
But they link to different targets. If I do that there is not an opportunity to discover what Gaul and the Gauls were.
  • This is totally unecessary, but I think the Opposing forces section would be better if it included two sub-sections: one on the Romans and the other on the Carthiginians.
I like reviewer comments which start like that ;-) Done.
I hesitate to ask, my knowledge of Wikipedia images being what it is, but why have you moved the photograph of hte helmet to face away from the text?
Oh I just thought it looked better. Feel free to move it back if you'd like. Unlimitedlead (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link Livy and briefly introduce who he was.
  • "Ancient Roman historians go to great lengths to excuse or explain his behaviour" Can you give some examples of who said this?
In the article or for you. Obviously I could do either. If in the article I think it inappropriate to summary style to give more detail on a trivial and only marginally on topic point. If for you, let me know; I could quote here of email you scans of the texts.
I was wondering if that would be useful to have in the article. Do as you desire! Unlimitedlead (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have relooked at this, but I don't think it could sensibly done. I would need to explain at least some of what Scipio said, why it may, or may not, have been dodgy, what an ancient historian said about it and why/how this - arguably - got Scipio off the hook. For the slim point involved it still doesn't seem worth that. Eg, see here most of page 207 and top of 208.
If the information does not fit into the article in a reasonable manner, you should not feel obligated to include it. Apologies for any confusion. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "An indemnity of 10,000 silver talents[note 6] was to be paid over 50 years. Hostages were taken." These sentences can be merged.
Done, although it now reads horribly. I think you only suggested it to sneak another comma in.
No comment ;) Unlimitedlead (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gog, I think you'd be delighted to know that I gritted my teeth in disappointment at the lack of commas in this article.

Excellent. :=)

However, everything else looks great. Another quality article to add to the ever-increasing pool of Punic War FAs. Unlimitedlead (talk) 00:44, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Unlimitedlead and thanks for that. All addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:54, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the review and the support Unlimited. No need to apologise for anything. It is a reviewers role to prod re anything they are reasonably unhappy about. It's then for me to either amend, or explain or justify my position. And making me relook at stuff is good. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:40, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Markham's storm petrel[edit]

Nominator(s): Therapyisgood (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about Markham's storm petrel, described as "one of the least known seabirds in the world". This passed GA in 2020 with a review by Dunkleosteus77 (talk · contribs). A peer review by Z1720 (talk · contribs) in 2021. Thus, I bring to you this article for FAC consideration. Thank you in advance for all those who review. I have asked for a co-nom at Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds, that is still open if you're familiar with the topic. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • What is the source of the data presented in the map? What is the base map used?
  • Also on the map, see MOS:COLOUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support Comments from Jim[edit]

An initial query or two about referencing style. Firstly, you use sentence case for Spanish article titles, and title case for English titles, including translation of the Spanish. How does this fit with MoS? Secondly, you need to italicise binomials in article titles as well as in the text Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • I don't think we normally link countries or continents
  • Hydrobates and Wilson's petrel are over-linked
  • large compared to other members in the genus, which also comprises small seabirds.— isn't the last clause redundant?
    • Cut, but I'm open to re-adding. I think Dunkleosteus77 emphasized that I explain terms, so that's where that might have came from. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • current practice as of 2008— How current is 2008?
  • ''Its iris is brown— need to restate subject I think, link iris, link endemic
  • Sexes are alike in terms of physical description. Its eggs are described as pure white without gloss.Its eggs doesn't have an obvious subject, the previous subjects were Sexes, Tail, and Adult male... Also, I don't think you have said that juveniles are similar to adults even in the hand
    • Added subject. Will get to the juveniles when I find a source. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:48, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Do you have a source for the "juveniles" statement? Therapyisgood (talk) 07:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • Yes, the BoW page linked below says There are no known morphological differences between adults and juveniles. In other species of storm-petrels, birds can be recognized in the hand using the shape of the tip of the feathers. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:23, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • As previously mentioned, the map needs clarification. I appreciate that at-sea map are a bit vague, and the map in Onley and Scofield bears little resemblance to that in Cornell Birds of the World, but all the more reason to be clear on your data source
  • You don't mention moult other than in passing. There isn't much to say, but Onley p 233 says that moulting adults are seen in the southern spring and early summer, moulting juveniles several months earlier
  • egg colour (white) not mentioned? In Paracas, the incubation averages 47 days (range 37-70 days, n = 28; 16) Both the male and female share incubation duties. In Paracas, incubation shifts lasted three days or less (16). No details on the breeding colonies in Chile. Should be included, if you can't source it, its in BoW Medrano, F., J. Drucker, and A. Jaramillo (2021). Markham's Storm-Petrel (Hydrobates markhami), version 2.1. In Birds of the World (T. S. Schulenberg, S. M. Billerman, and B. K. Keeney, Editors). Cornell Lab of Ornithology, Ithaca, NY, USA.
  • IUCN needs full name and link
  • an estimate by Barros et al., who estimated up to 20,875 — Are you convinced the estimate is accurate to units level? If not, needs rounding
  • birds believing they had already reached the coast— needs some qualification unless inter-species telepathy was involved
  • a large amount of juveniles—large number
  • ''En Peligro de Extinción should this be italicised? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:21, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

12:01, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

  • I think that the only other comments I'd make is that the appearance of the egg is under Description, rather than breeding, which seems odd, and that BoW gives the mean egg size as 32.2 x 24.2 mm (n = 155; 16). Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Therapyisgood, I think we are nearly there. As far as I can see, you haven't added the egg data above. With regard to the map, unless its creator can enlighten you (hasn't edited at commons for a year), you might well have to redraw using an identified blank map from commons. The range obviously won't be exact, but we need to know what source you use, and we tend to use blue for non-breeding, see project page Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:56, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I don't visit the bird project talk page much these days, so I didn't pick up you were writing this, otherwise I could have helped before FAC. I've changed to support above, good luck Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:28, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Queries by WereSpielChequers[edit]

  • Clones. Re "Adult males have a wingspan of 172.7 millimetres (6.80 in) compared to a wingspan of 169.8 millimetres (6.69 in) in adult females" these are very specific measurements. By comparison, in Wilson's_storm_petrel#Description there is a wingspan range with the largest individuals 10% larger than the smallest. Could this be the measurement of the type specimen or an average rather than a standard? ϢereSpielChequers 22:43, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Death of Kevin Gately[edit]

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Kevin Gately was a student on his first anti-racism rally; he died that day, but no-one witnessed exactly how that happened. The tragedy of his death an interesting piece of London history and sits in counterpoint to the death of Blair Peach. Any comments are welcome. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Kevin-Gately-in-Red-Lion-Square-1974.jpg is missing a fair-use tag. This is described as a press photo - any idea which organization or agency?
  • File:Map_of_Red_Lion_Square_disorders,_showing_key_points_of_interest.png: see MOS:COLOUR
  • File:Leslie_Scarman.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks Nikki – you’re always so quick on picking these up, and it’s greatly appreciated.
  • Alt text added
  • Gatley: I’ll have to do some digging on this
  • No, unfortunately there's no credit given. The picture appeared in several regional newspapers at the time, but there was no photo credit I could see on any of them. FUR tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 11:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I think the map is probably OK (although if you see any problems, please let me know), so is the caption the only issue you see?
  • Caption is the main problem, although if the route label for the counterprotest were moved to the top right I think that would be clearer. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • OK, I've enlarged the caption - de-emphasising the colour aspect: does that look OK now? I've requested a new map at the graphics lab, so hopefully there will be something better along in a while. - SchroCat (talk) 11:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I'm just on the way out, but I'll point out a few flaws shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 13:44, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • National Front route:
  1. doesn't start at the edge of the map
  2. goes off-road and through buildings
  3. at the SE corner of Red Lion Square the lines don't quite meet
  4. Should probably include an arrow to show the direction of the march
  • Liberation march:
  1. goes off-road and through buildings
  2. the stems of some of the arrows are wider than route
  3. there should probably be a small arrow showing people going off the march and into Conway Hall
  4. the label 'Route of Lib CD' should be above (NM suggests the top right - so above where it says Theobalds Rd)
  5. the label 'clashes with protestors and police' at the left (at the Southampton Row junction) shouldn't be over the road name.
That just about covers it, I think! - SchroCat (talk) 08:41, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@SchroCat: do you want the route marches to run alongside the roads (which would keep the street names visible), or run along the middle of the road, covering the names? SN54129 14:34, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Alongside would be good, thanks - SchroCat (talk) 14:41, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@SchroCat: Also, how about colouring Conway Hall something else? It being red, it might be mistaken as a communist headquarters...which would be ironic. I think a brightish blue or gree should work, and still adhere to most:contrast. SN54129 16:07, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
On edit: The blue would be best, if anything, not such good results in green. Re. MOS:CONTRAST. SN54129 16:46, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, that's a good thought. Not so much about it being considered a communist building(!), but because the Liberation march is in red, so some people may think there is a connection between the building and Liberation. Blue works for me. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Check. See what you think. SN54129 18:45, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Excellent - thank you! - SchroCat (talk) 19:09, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Replaced the link with the current one.
Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi Nikkimaria, I think I've covered all these, but please let me know if I need to do some more work on them. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source and citation review by Dugan Murphy: Pass[edit]

Will do in a bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The publication year for "News Reports" is formatted differently that its neighbors in the sources list. I think that is because it is lacking an author parameter.
  • Same for "South Place Ethical Society".
  • Same for "500 students march as Kevin Gately is buried".
  • Same for "Meeting Room 2 renamed 'The Kevin Gately Room'"
  • Same for "Kevin Gately"
  • For all these, there is no listed author, so the sfn template puts them into a different, but still correct, format. I’ve added the |author=<!--not stated--> parameter for the sake of completeness, but it doesn’t affect the format.
  • Fairhall uses "1974a" instead of "1974". Is that necessary?
  • It was when I was writing, but I took out the 1974b ref - now tidied. - SchroCat (talk) 07:52, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I’m not sure that’s of much use - it won’t help the reader understand much around the subject. I’ve not linked any of the other publishers on the same basis. - SchroCat (talk) 08:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I notice you use the sfnref "'Kevin Gately'. Ancestry", but the source listing doesn't mention, which I'm assuming the use of that word is referring to. If that's how you accessed the death records, I think you should add that to the source listing.

The listed books are all held at academic libraries, which tells me they're reliable. The journals all seem legit. Websites look reliable. The Hansard transcripts certainly are. The death index also looks legit. Aside from the date issues I brought up in my first 6 comments, this list of sources is formatted consistently. So neat and tidy! The inline citations also seem appropriately and consistently formatted. Overall, well done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:28, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Dugan Murphy, many thanks for your comments here. I’ve tweaked the refs or commented above to explain. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Looks good. I believe you have adequately addressed and responded to all my comments.
If you are able, I would appreciate another set of eyes on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Logan (novel)/archive1.Dugan Murphy (talk) 13:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Harry[edit]

I went over this in detail at the PR and everything I picked up was addressed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Thanks, Harry, for your comments there and here - they're much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support Comments from Jim[edit]

I remember Blair Peach, don't remember this one though, despite being a London leftie in the early 1970s. Very interesting. Just jotting as I read through... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • In total during the day were 711 foot-police and 25 mounted police;[27] with additional support, traffic and CID officers, there were 923 police deployed to marshal the two marches— Not sure about this. Either end sentence at ...mounted police or insert "from" or including" after support
  • Because of his height, his was caught—"he"
  • Liberation march—still having their open-air meeting in the square—and the National Front march—not sure last word is needed
  • Many thanks Jim; I've covered these, and if you have any more, I'd be delighted to hear them. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:50, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Tim riley[edit]

I had my two penn'orth at PR, and a re-reading just now brings hardly anything to light that I hadn't spotted earlier. Just four minor points, three of which are quibbles and one isn't:

  • "the Conway Hall Ethical Society on Red Lion Square" – would be better in English rather than American: "in Red Lion Square".
  • "the back door on Theobalds Road" – ditto
  • "their assembly point on the Embankment" – but that "on" looks right to me: "in the Embankment" would look odd.
  • Still at the Embankment, you link to the tube station, but from the context I imagine that linking to Victoria Embankment would be more accurate.

Nothing to cause alarm and despondency there. I found myself a bit despondent to reflect that Gately, a year younger than me, would have turned seventy this year. A sad article, but comprehensive, highly readable, well and widely sourced, balanced and as well illustrated as I imagine such an article can be. Meets all the FA criteria in my view (though can we have something a bit jollier from the SchroCat production line next, please? Dearly as we loved, and still miss, Brian Boulton, his crown as king of disaster articles is not up for grabs). Tim riley talk 14:13, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Many thanks Tim - I'm much obliged to you. Next to come along will certainly be lighter in tone: Snakehips is winding his way here next. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:53, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from HAL[edit]

  • Happy to support. All of my gripes were fixed at the PR. ~ HAL333 22:57, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thans Hal; that's much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:34, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from ChrisTheDude[edit]

  • "Police reinforcements, including mounted police and units of the Special Patrol Group forced" => "Police reinforcements, including mounted police and units of the Special Patrol Group, forced"
  • "there was a rise in localised support, and the willingness to demonstrate against the National Front and its policies" => "there was a rise in localised support and the willingness to demonstrate against the National Front and its policies"
  • "Liberation, was formed in 1954 " => "Liberation was formed in 1954 "
  • "What Liberation did not know, was that " => "What Liberation did not know was that "
  • Suggest the heading "Scarman's Inquiry" should be "Scarman's inquiry", as I don't believe inquiry in this context is a proper noun
I've tweaked it slightly to have it as "Scarman Inquiry": it was an official inquiry, known in the press as the Scarman Inquiry. Does that suit? - SchroCat (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Maybe put a [sic] in the quote "it was a 21-year-old student who died". as he wasn't 21
  • "The increasingly provocative actions by the National Front continued through the 1970s led" - not grammatically correct. Maybe "The increasingly provocative actions by the National Front continued through the 1970s and led"
  • That's all I got -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:29, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's great - thanks very much Chris - I'm much obliged to you. With the exception of one, I've done the rest per your suggestions. I'd be happy to be persuaded on the Inquiry point too - I'm not married to it, it's just that "Scarman's inquiry" just looks like it's about a question he asked! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Burhanuddin Harahap[edit]

Nominator(s): Juxlos (talk) 04:28, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Burhanuddin Harahap was Indonesia's 9th (probably, depending on when you start counting) Prime Minister, serving for seven months or thereabouts, including during Indonesia's first election in 1955. Until Abdurrahman Wahid in 2001, no Indonesian head of government would come from an Islamic Party after Harahap. Mostly known to Indonesians through a sentence or two in history textbooks. Article was promoted to GA in August 2022, and was featured in "On this day" the following month. Previous nomination was made before I became aware that I can only make 1 FAC at a time - can someone close it, by the way? Juxlos (talk) 04:28, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

The one issue I'm seeing is File:Election Pamphlet of Masyumi 1955 election.jpg, which would be public domain under a different tag if the author of the illustration is not known. In most cases works by a political party are not considered government works. (t · c) buidhe 04:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • @Juxlos: Out of curiosity, what happened to the first FAC? SN54129 17:52, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Nominated simultaneously with another FA without being aware of the rules about multiples. Could have just reposted it but didn’t want to have a 3-month old nomination. Juxlos (talk) 00:55, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John Manners (cricketer)[edit]

Nominator(s): StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I got this article to GA class in April 2020 and decided, with some time on my hands in the next few months, to see if it could reach FA status. I have previously listed this for a peer review, but had no input, but I did list it on the cricket project talk page for feedback, which was received and actioned. John Manners was a Royal Navy officer and first-class cricketer, most notable for being the oldest living first-class cricketer ever, until his death in 2020 aged 105. All told, his life was a fascinating one! Looking forward to hearing what comments people have. StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coordinator note[edit]

Hi StickyWicket, just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:01, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review


  • "With his first-class career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" - maybe just say "With his career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" to avoid repetition?
  • "after securing a shore based position" => "after securing a shore-based position"
  • "thus narrowly falling short of becoming the first Hampshire batsman to make a century on their first-class debut" - was the miss really "narrow"? It's not like he scored 98 or 99.....
  • "Prior to the United Kingdom's declaration of war on Germany in September 1939, Manners had been saving his leave in order to have a full summer playing county cricket in 1940, but the subsequent declaration would mean it would be more than ten years before he played first-class cricket again" - this contradicts the lead, which says he played first class cricket in 1947, only eight years after war broke out.
    • Fixed. I have clarified that Manners last played first-class cricket prior to the war in 1936, with his next first-class appearance coming in 1947. StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Manners was recalled back to Britain" => "Manners was recalled to Britain"
  • "Six months later, with Eglinton based at Harwich, Manner's and his wife" - shouldn't have an apostrophe in his name
  • "although unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" => "although they were unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" (existing wording indicated that the four people killed were also unscathed)
    • Fixed, thanks for pointing that out, definitely does read that way looking at it again! StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "a third depth-charge set to “deep”, which caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface" - first part has no verb. Maybe reword to "a third depth-charge set to “deep” caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface"
  • "where he received the German surrender there" => "where he received the German surrender" ("there" was redundant to "where")
  • "Manners entertained himself by playing in cricket matches against Sydney's leading public schools" - do we know who he played for? Currently it almost reads like he was playing "1 vs 11 matches"......
    • I've had a trawl through Trove and couldn't find any coverage of his cricket while stationed in Sydney, there's normally basic scorecard coverage from club matches around that time, but nothing. Seems the matches were not covered by the local press. So just his Daily Telegraph obituary and memoirs by Yardley-Latham to go by there. StickyWicket (talk) 22:36, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • How about "Manners entertained himself by playing in cricket matches involving Sydney's leading public schools"? Removes the slight implication that he took on an entire school XI by himself..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:35, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "in a first-class match apiece for each" => "in a first-class match apiece" (again "for each" is redundant to "apiece", which means the same thing)
  • "who Manners would visit each Christmas" => "whom Manners would visit each Christmas"
    • Done. 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Marriage License[edit]

Nominator(s): Guerillero Parlez Moi

Marriage License is a painting that pushes on the standard assumptions about the limits of art and who it is for. You are more likely to see it on the walls of a midwestern grandmother's house rather than at MOMA. The man or woman on the street would call this painting art without skipping a beat, but art historians and philosophers of art would be more likely to disagree. To add a curve ball, MAD Magazine, yes that MAD Magazine, published a parody of the painting in 2004 that accurately predicted how the winds would shift on LGBTQ rights in American Culture.

Thank you to Ceoil, Premeditated Chaos and P-Makoto for your reviews. I think that the article now meets the standards to be an FA. --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 07:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "using residents form the town" - there's a typo in there
  • "reference photos taken of Stockbridge, Massachusetts native Joan Lahart, her fiancé Francis Mahoney, a retired NBA player, and local shopkeeper Jason Braman" - this could be interpreted as referring to four different people, is there a way to re-word?
  • "Since its appearance on the The Saturday Evening Post" - repeated "the"
  • "It has been compared to the works of Johannes Vermeer due to Rockwell's use of light and dark by commentators" => "It has been compared by commentators to the works of Johannes Vermeer due to Rockwell's use of light and dark"
  • "After some prodding, Moe agreed to pose for Rockwell" => "After some prodding, Mahoney agreed to pose for Rockwell" (per MOS:SURNAME)
  • "Rockwell drew on both Johannes Vermeer c. 1657–58 The Little Street" - this is a bit weird. I think "Rockwell drew on both The Little Street, painted by Johannes Vermeer c. 1657–58," would work better
  • "The older man in a bowtie sits behind the desk sits looking bored" => "An older man in a bowtie sits behind the desk sits looking bored"
  • "with cat on the floor" => "with a cat on the floor"
  • "one of Rockwell's "most successful canvases,"" - comma should be outside the quote marks (unless this is an American usage with which I am not familiar)
  • "have compared Marriage License and the painting" - huh? Marriage License is the painting.....?
  • "In 2004, as a response to the Goodridge v. Department of Public Health" - add a few words to clarify what this actually is/was
  • "The yellow dress of the woman in the original painting was paralleled" - as previous sentence used present tense I think this one should too
  • "in deciding which marriages as valid" => "in deciding which marriages are valid"
  • External links section is completely empty so can be removed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:57, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Reserving a spot. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Dibsing. ♠PMC(talk) 01:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Lovely to see the degree of expansion from GA to now. It was a very complete article already but now it's got some extra heft. I really find myself with minimal griping here.

  • "It has been compared by commentators to" - Passive voice. "Commentators have compared it to" is more active and a little cleaner
  • "and has been a part of three major exhibitions: 1955, 1972, and 1999" - I won't die on this hill, but having the years separated with a colon feels weird. It might make more sense if the exhibitions had names, or if they were independently notable. I might go with "and has been a part of major exhibitions there in 1955, 1972, and 1999."
  • In the lead you mention that he used locals for reference photos then painted from that, but that isn't as clearly spelled out in the body. Maybe somewhere in the first paragraph of "Commission and models" you could mention that he painted from photos of the models, not from life?
  • Do we know when in 1954 the sister was approached and/or when the shoots were done? It's relevant later with the note about the dress being unavailable during winter.
  • I think it's summerwear with no space but not a hill I'll die on
  • Perhaps "sitting attentively towards" instead of just "sitting towards"?
  • Is it possible to expand slightly as to how the painting draws on The Little Street? I'm assuming the brickwork out the window, but other than that the connection isn't entirely clear to me.
  • Any particular reason we're calling out the Four Freedoms and Shuffleton's Barbershop specifically? Are they related to Marriage License, or otherwise very significant?
  • "the painting along with Breaking Home Ties, as the artist's" - you either need a comma after "the painting" or no comma after "Ties"
  • I don't think you have to italicise quote amendments inside square brackets
  • For the ignorant among us (me included), can we have brief context for John Updike like you've done with other commentators?
  • "due to it being vulgar and childish" - a) I think this needs to be rephrased to be in her voice, and b) can we unpack it some more? Why does she think that?
  • Organizationally I'm not sure "Themes" belongs under "Reception". Maybe up under "Composition"? But let's discuss.
  • "A regular tool that Rockwell used in his paintings was the decision to capture every day activities rather that formal moments" - I'm not sure describing a style tendency as a tool works unless you're going on to explain what he used it for, which in this case you're not. I think there's some fat to be trimmed here to be honest. "Rockwell often chose to capture everyday activities rather than formal moments." works just as well.
    • I was able to get the Finch source from IA, and I might tweak the ref to 81-82 and remove 90, as p. 90 doesn't really support the content in the article.
    • I noticed that neither Finch nor Larson/Hennessy seem to say outright that the young/old excited/bored contrasts are only available because of Rockwell's focus on mundane moments. It doesn't necessarily follow that they're only possible because of the private moment - you could have young/old excited/bored moments at a public wedding as well. I think it needs to be either better-supported or revised.
  • I don't love the description "used as a muse". People are muses, supernatural forces are muses, but inanimate objects, I'm not sure.
  • "several other Rockwell's in 1979." I'm not sure this is supposed to be possessive

That's it! Really, as I said, minimal griping mostly at this point due to the excellent work from other reviewers leaving little for me to notice and comment on. As always, happy to discuss any of my suggestions. (As a side note, if you have the interest I'd love to see you at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Widows of Culloden/archive1). ♠PMC(talk) 02:33, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]



  • File:Marriage-License.jpg: 1.) "n.a." is generally insufficient for fair use rationals. Once you add a rational I would suggest adding the |image has rationale=yes parameter to the template. 2.) The file could use a talkpage. Use Wikiproject Art or whatever the relevant project is.
    Fixed in part. I do not see any value to wiki project tagging files and it is not required under the MOS --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In 2004, Mad magazine released If Norman Rockwell Depicted the 21st Century a parody of Marriage License by Richard Williams.In 2004, Mad magazine released If Norman Rockwell Depicted the 21st Century, a parody of Marriage License, by Richard Williams.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Rockwell often use locals as models for his later paintings: Marriage License's three main figures - the young couple and the older man - hyphens should be ndashes.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • can you link wingtips anywhere?
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The inflation figures need Template:Inflation/fn
    Fixed in part. I pulled in the post-1800 cite web rather than the full data series --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • An bored looking middle aged man typo.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • 1657–58 should be 1657–1658 per MOS:DATERANGE
    Fixed in the image description and removed from the text. It doesn't flow for me --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Finch, Christopher (2013). Norman Rockwell's : space after "Rockwell's"
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • No location on ref 10, but locations on other refs.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I haven't checked, but if the very first comments I made apply to the 2012 file, apply the changes as well.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • June 11, 1955, edition no need for second comma. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:39, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The parody stays close to the source material but with the cast iron stove replaced by a photocopier, the spittoon becoming a trash can, and a pair of gay men signing their marriage license. I believe the date is also different but there's no explanation for this in the text. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:52, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    None of the sources mention the date change. The painting was in the February 2004 edition of MAD, so I have no idea where the date in June comes from --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support pending image and source review. If you could get someone with experience in Art to comment that would be great too, perhaps there's something I'm missing. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Commission and models
  • "puffed sleeves for Joan and a "light blue shirt and wingtips" for Moe": I think we're far enough away from the sister that we can go with Lahart and Mahoney here
    Done --Guerillero Parlez Moi 19:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Popular-art historian": I've never seen this hyphenated before, and I'm guessing you're trying to avoid him looking like an art historian who is popular? "Popular culture historian" gets away from the issue with the blue link, particularly as Finch comments on pop culture, rather than just pop art (or "Historian of popular art/culture" would also suffice – as long as the hyphen is removed)
    You are correct with what the hyphen is trying to do. I went with the link. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 19:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Deborah Solomon, Dave Ferman of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram": " Deborah Solomon and Dave Ferman of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram" – a comma shouldn't replace the conjunction
    The three people are "Deborah Solomon, Dave Ferman of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, and philosopher of art Marcia Muelder Eaton". I will think about how to replace it. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 19:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Gotcha, OK. I'm not sure why not just "Deborah Solomon and Dave Ferman of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, and philosopher of art Marcia Muelder Eaton": doesn't that work as well - or am I missing something? - SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " As a well known Rockwell": two issues here: 1. Well-known should be hyphenated; 2. "a well-known Rockwell picture/painting".
    Done --Guerillero Parlez Moi 19:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Overall it feels a bit 'thin', both in terms of scope and depth.

  • I would like to see details of the medium, size, current location (including any history of the provenance), themes, time it took to paint, examination of the techniques used (if there was anything 'special' he did), details of major exhibitions in which it was shown, etc
  • Christopher Finch's Norman Rockwell's America has some good description of the work and discusses (albeit briefly) the theme of young love, and there seems to be a lack of academic studies on the piece. I'm not an expert by any means, so don't know the literature around Rockwell or his works, but the article seems to be very thin on these sources.
    • I got it on and I will see what I can find. I think I skipped over Finch's other works after looking at one due to thinking that they all had roughly the same material.

      If you can forgive me for editorializing, I have some thoughts on this subject after working on this project for the last few months. Art history has a Rockwell problem where they see his paintings as not real art and therefore not worthy of study. I wish Eaton was writing today and therefore took a more intersectional approach because she spends paragraphs actively dodging the reason home economics is more comfortable with Rockwell than art history: class. I will do more digging, but I feel like I have hit a dead end. --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 12:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

      • No problem. I'm not an art expert even in the widest sense, let alone when considering Rockwell. There is a tiny bit in The Faith of America by Fred Bauer (he says Rockwell "struggled" for 33 days to finish the painting) which should be considered for inclusion. If the scholars and academics have overlooked Rockwell and there isn't much in-depth analysis, then that's fine (and more fool them). - SchroCat (talk) 13:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I hope this all help. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Johnbod, driving by[edit]

  • For an FA, you need more than "is a painting" as regards technique. Also, the size and current owner and location. All in the first lead para. Johnbod (talk) 15:18, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I guess I will add an infobox, much to my dislike for that information. Looking over a random sample of FAs, none of them include all of that in the first paragraph. -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 16:36, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • There's absolutely no need to include an infobox, and these basic pieces of info should still be in the lead text anyway (almost certainly, someone else will add one unless you add a note asking people not to). You're claiming there are painting FAs that don't include the size, technique, location and ownership in the lead? Examples please. It's not like the lead is already long - it's only 3 paras. Johnbod (talk) 17:26, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      @Johnbod/SchroCat: Can you please take another look? I fleshed things out a bit more and I hope it alleviates your concerns -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 23:28, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Better, certainly. If you are going to do painting FACs you should check out and follow MOS:ART:
      • "The lead section on individual works of art should give at least the following information (in roughly this order): Name(s)/title(s) of work, artist, date, type and materials, subject, nation or city of origin, present location." and "Measurements should always be given for a work that is the article subject, but are not usually needed in captions".
      • "For works belonging to permanent public collections, avoid "... currently resides in", "is currently in the Louvre", "is on display at", "is located in", "is in the collection of", and similar phrases." -re "The painting is currently in the collection of the Norman Rockwell Museum ..."
      • The exhibitions should all be together I think, not some in the lead and others below (move them all down)
      • The "Composition" section is only partly about the Composition (visual arts), and would be better called "Description".
      • "As a well-known Rockwell painting, Marriage License has been used as a muse for other works" - usually only people are "muses".
      • Can you say anything about the process by which the painting was significantly reduced in size for the reproduction, and the printing process used?

Johnbod (talk) 05:26, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Overall very good, esp in last few days

  • As said on the talk, its hard to understand the contrast between the couple and official from the very low resolution lead image. I would go for for two crops (the couple and your man) and FU claims - this would make understanding far, far more clear on a scan if for eg it gets to main page, which it obviously will. Espically, even clicking through, its not possible with the current img to see how the "wearied look on his face contrasts starkly with the excited couple"
  • I don't know what this means, or at least it begs a lot of questions: Starting in the 1930s, Rockwell created his paintings from 50 to 100 reference photos.
  • Have rephrased the reception somewhat - I think the sources were saying he was influenced by Vermeer, rather than comparable to Vermeer (which would be ridiculous). Do "Solomon and Ferman compare the paintings positively" really?
  • I see you revered the templated converting cm to inches. Why
  • can you put dates after The Letterman, Little Girl Observing Lovers on a Train, Before the Date, and The University Club
  • Peggy Lahart, a nurse at the Riggs center, was approached to pose for a painting depicting a bride-to-be - Rockwell approached
  • In the catalog for the 1972 retrospective exhibition of Rockwell's works - Rockwell's 1972 retrospective
  • philosopher of art Marcia Muelder Eaton - never heard of such a discipline.
  • Rereading, more later. Ceoil (talk) 02:10, 6 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Red-throated wryneck[edit]

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Father Christmas bought me The Wryneck for Christmas, which inspired me to return here after a long absence. Wrynecks are two species of Old World woodpeckers that don't act much like woodpeckers, spending most of their time eating ants. I've picked the African version to submit here. Thanks to Aa77zz and Doc Taxon for help with a couple of other sources Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I made a few minor MOS tweaks here you should probably check to make sure I haven't done anything you disagree with – feel free to change anything you wish.

Is there no picture of a J. r. aequatorialis, for comparison with the other two??

  • "by the IUCN". As this is a little-known organisation, I think full naming in the lead would best.
  • Link "coverts" for those of us who don't know all the nomenclature?
  • Again I think it's best to full name the IUCN

That's the lot – very little to pick up on here. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • SchroCat thanks for looking. Changes made as suggested. Although there are more than 40 images on commons, all but the solitary Ethiopian bird are from South Africa, no J. r. pulchricollisJimfbleak - talk to me? 07:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


The article looks in good shape and I can't find much to quibble about. I don't have Gorman 2014 or Gorman 2022 (or Birds of Africa Vol 3). Here are some comments.

  • Consider citing Wagler 1830 when his description is first mentioned.


  • "as a displacement activity" – true to source but this strikes me as very odd way to describe the behaviour of a bird.


  • "They measure 22 mm × 20 mm (0.87 in × 0.79 in) and weigh about 3.4 g (0.12 oz)." This is incorrect – the eggs are certainly more elongated than this. The cited source, BOW, has: "size 20·5–23·5 mm × 15·5–17·5 mm, mass 3 (7)–3·5 g (6)". Taking the mid points of the ranges gives 22 x 16.5 mm with a weight of 3.25g. (There is a published formula to calculate the weight of an egg in grams (0.51 x L x B^2) where L and B are in cms. This gives 3.05 g ) I notice that Tarboton (p 107) describes the eggs as cream coloured rather than white (but pale cream and white are very similar). The eggs of J. torquilla are described as white in BWP (They are slight smaller at 21 x 15mm).
  • Not sure what happened there, I've changed and stuck with the mean rather than the formula. As a bit of OR, I think even the Eurasian eggs are more cream/ivory than chalky white, so I've changed to the catch-all "creamy white" Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:25, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'll continue looking and may post more comments later. - Aa77zz (talk) 14:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The article claims that both the nominate race and pulchricollis are found in "southern Sudan". From the range map I think this should be South Sudan (since 2011). It is unlikely that there are two subspecies in South Sudan (they cannot be sympatric) and from the text of Cornell BOW it appears that only pulchricollis occurs there. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:15, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The typical generation length is 3.5 years.[1]" – where [1] is the IUCN. The IUCN doesn't provide a source for this number or explain how it was calculated – it would presumably require a long-term study – which are rare for African birds. The IUCN is not a suitable source for this type of information. (I notice that the IUCN also gives 3.5 years as the "Generation length" of the Eurasian wryneck).
  • "Fossil wrynecks are known from Europe in the Pleistocene, between 2.6 million and 11,700 years ago.[3]". Fossils are problematic and I usually steer clear of them. They are usually very fragmentary and there is often considerable uncertainty in their age and in how they relate to extant species. Nevertheless, you might consider mentioning the fossil described in De Pietri et al 2011 or perhaps just the date. A comprehensive phylogeny of the woodpecker family by Shakya et al. 2017 used the date of 22.5Mya for the split of Jynx from the rest of the Picidae to calibrate their phylogeny (p. 185): "We also applied two other calibration points: 22.5 Ma from the fossil Piculoides saulcetensis representing the split between Jynx from the rest of the Picidae (De Pietri et al., 2011);.." The De Pietri fossil consists only of "the distal end of a tarsometatarsus". The references are (I think both are open access):
    Shakya, S.B.; Fuchs, J.; Pons, J.-M.; Sheldon, F.H. (2017). "Tapping the woodpecker tree for evolutionary insight". Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. 116: 182–191. doi:10.1016/j.ympev.2017.09.005.
    De Pietri, V.L.; Manegold, A.; Costeur, L.; Mayr, G. (2011). "A new species of woodpecker (Aves; Picidae) from the early Miocene of Saulcet (Allier, France)". Swiss Journal of Palaeontology. 130 (2): 307–314. doi:10.1007/s13358-011-0021-8..

- Aa77zz (talk) 12:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Aa77zz I've incorporated those refs, for which thanks. I'm not completely convinced that what I've written makes sense though Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Consider mentioning alternate common names in the Taxonomy and etymology section so that you can remove the cite from the lead. I've just looked at the use of common names. The HBW book article and BOW use "rufous-necked wryneck", the Helm guides (East and West Africa) both use "red-throated wryneck". BOW haven't implemented redirects - "red-throated wryneck" is not found. Note that articles in HBW usually list alternate common names.

Support – another excellent article from Jim. - Aa77zz (talk) 10:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Aa77zz Thanks for your help and support, I've moved the ref as suggested. I couldn't find any other common variations beyond those used by Gorman 2014. The original article had another variation that wasn't actually listed in its source (the Gorman book with another publisher} Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:14, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • How are you ordering multiple sources by the same author?
  • Be consistent in when you include retrieval date
  • Can you explain why FN8 is a high-quality source for the claim it's supporting? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review[edit]

Frilled lizard[edit]

Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about arguably the most recognizable lizard in the world. I used a fair amount of scientific peer reviewed articles that cover nearly all the most important facts about the species. It has gone through a good article review which included a spotcheck and image review. I think we're almost there. LittleJerry (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Don't use fixed px size
I have to for the cladogram. Otherwise the images will be giant. LittleJerry (talk) 13:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Chlamydosaurus_kingii_engraving_by_Mr._Curtis_1827.jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:22, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 13:08, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Jim[edit]

  • Its distinctive appearance has been used in media —perhaps depicted?
  • The specific name, kingii, is a Latinised form of King's last name. —perhaps The specific name, kingii, is a Latinised form of King?
  • Grey’s cartilages —not linked or explained
  • The frill displays a variation of colours from west to east —perhaps add across its range. I wondered momentarily why the colour depended on the lizard's orientation
  • soil draining — soil drainage?
  • do so while feeding or to escape from predatorsHunting, rather than feeding
  • The species has been featured on some coins. —bit vague, no indication even of which nation's currency
Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 22:27, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "which is when spends" - missing word
  • "The species is cleared to be" - is "cleared" the right word there?
  • "analysis of the species across its range using" - using what? There seems to be at least one word missing here
  • Which variant of English is this article written in? I can see "center" (American) but also "behaviour" (British) (but also "behavior" as well)
  • "The colours of the frill varies" - the subject (colours) is plural, so the verb should be too
    • It now says "the colours of the frills varies", which is still incorrect..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Consumption of ants drops after early dry season fires but raises" => "Consumption of ants drops after early dry season fires but rises"
  • "it watches for potential prey from a tree and upon finding it, climbs down" => "it watches for potential prey from a tree and, upon finding it, climbs down"
  • "many "captive bred" lizard" => "many "captive bred" lizards"
  • "Frilled lizard may also" => "Frilled lizards may also"
  • "portrayed with a similar looking neck frill that raised when attacking" => "portrayed with a similar looking neck frill that rose when attacking"
  • Last image caption is not a complete sentence so it doesn't need a full stop -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 19:48, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support - nice one -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ayn Rand[edit]

Nominator(s): RL0919 (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It has been a few years since my last FAC, so I decided to return with a bang. This is a level-4 vital article about one of the most controversial authors of the 20th century. Rand wrote Broadway plays, Hollywood screenplays, and bestselling novels, but she is most commonly discussed today because of the ideas she championed in her later novels and nonfiction essays. She is sometimes considered a key figure in "libertarianism" or "neoliberalism" – labels she rejected or never heard of (respectively). This longtime GA article has been updated with recent scholarship about her background, impact, and academic reception, to make it ready for FAC feedback. RL0919 (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Vanamonde[edit]

I'd quite like to review this in depth, but I'm not sure I'll have the time: I'm scrambling in RL. So I'm leaving two drive-by comments, in the hope that I will revisit this later. First, I was pleasantly surprised by the extent to which scholarly work is represented in the source material; for such a contentious figure, I would have assumed that media sources would have crept in over time. On a quick read through, however, I get the impression that in many places the text mentions the existence of reviews or critique rather than summarizing their substance. I'm also a little hesitant about the structure, in particular the distribution of critical material across five sub-sections. Thanks for bringing an article this important to FAC! Vanamonde (Talk) 21:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for your interest, Vanamonde. Any actionable feedback to improve the article is welcomed, even if you aren't able to provide a full review. --RL0919 (talk) 23:44, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Ayn_Rand_signature_1949.svg: source link is dead
  • File:Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg needs a tag for the original work
  • File:Immanuel_Kant_(painted_portrait).jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:20, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the quick review, Nikkimaria. I made the following changes:
  • For the signature, archive link added.
  • For the photo of the Aristotle bust, added "PD-art-70-3d" license tag.
  • For the photo of the Kant painting, changed license tag to "PD-art-old-100-expired", which includes US status.
Let me know if you spot anything further that is needed. --RL0919 (talk) 03:33, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

1998 Tour de France[edit]

Nominator(s): Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the 85th running of the Tour de France, the most famous bicycle race in the world. It was in FA review 3 years ago and received two supports, but lack of more engagement led to the nomination stalling and being closed. I am hoping to have more success this time around. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John C. Young (college president)[edit]

Nominator(s): PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John C. Young, the fourth president of Centre College in Danville, Kentucky, was instrumental in saving the "struggling" college; Centre's graduating class size went from two students in his first year to 43 in his last. He served as president for 27 years, longer than any other in Centre's history, before he died in office and was buried in Danville. During his life he was also a minister; he was licensed to preach in 1827 and took the pastorate of Danville's Presbyterian Church four years after coming to Centre. The popularity of his preaching led him to open a new church in Danville in 1852; he was also elected moderator of the Presbyterian Church General Assembly the next year. In addition, he is the namesake of an academic building on campus and was the father of a future Centre president.

This is my second FAC; the first, 2020 US Open (tennis), was archived after I wisely nominated it right before finals week and did not respond to several comments. I was mentored for this nomination by Hog Farm - many thanks go to him for his willingness to assist me. Details can be seen on the article talk page. I look forward to any and all feedback that reviewers can provide! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just a follow up to say that I will be happy to provide exact quotes of the Weston source (which I have with me) or the Craig source (which I should have access to again in a couple days) if anybody wants to verify those. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:47, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First-time nomination[edit]

  • Hi PCN02WPS, thanks for the comments above. You are correct in surmising that having not yet had an article promoted at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • File:John_C._Young_by_John_Sartain_(cropped).jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:20, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria I have added a tag to the Commons page detailing US copyright status. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
When and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria The source website says that it was published in the mid-19th century, though it doesn't list a specific date or a location. I can keep looking but I'm not sure what I'll be able to find. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The source website gives the "date" as the mid-19th century, but doesn't specify whether that date was publication or only creation. What is the earliest publication that can be confirmed? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria I have changed the Commons licensing tag to a broader one that doesn't rely solely on publication date; I will do some more digging but at this moment I don't have an exact date or location for creation or publishing. I can reach out to Centre for more info or potentially for a different image if this one isn't suitable for these reasons. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:52, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That would be helpful - it isn't clear at this point that this would be PD, if publication is uncertain. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:54, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria Not sure why I hadn't seen this yet - according to Centre's digital archives, the engraving was published in 1890 in the General Catalogue of the Centre College of Kentucky. Location of publication is listed as Danville. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry, do you have a link to where it says that? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:33, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Right, I’m sorry about that. Here’s the page I found. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:50, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Logan (novel)[edit]

Nominator(s): Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An 1822 novel of sex and violence on the colonial American frontier so incoherent "it is like the raving of a bedlamite" and so emotionally intense that "You are fagged and fretted to death, long and long before you foresee the termination." Yet studded with pearls of genius that meaningfully foreshadowed successors Poe, Whitman, and Hawthorne. Just read the plot summary ... if you dare, for it makes no. Damn. Sense. Awesome, right? This nomination, if successful, will be my 7th FAC/FLC of an article I produced from scratch – the 3rd about a John Neal (writer) novel. Having applied what I've learned from past nomination reviews, I'm confident about this article's quality. I'm nevertheless looking forward to hearing what comments people have, given that these articles always improve considerably with critique. Thank you in advance for your time! Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • Colonial Virginia frontier" I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to convey to the reader in terms of location.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Can some of the repeated mentions of sex and violence in the first PP be consolidated?
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Logan is Neal's second novel," Consider "was"
Sure. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "provided considerable influence to future American writers" maybe "influenced later American writers"?
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The novel is considered important to scholars studying the roles of Gothic literature" Should "to" be "by"?
Yes. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "stupefies" How?
Removed. The plot summary was too long anyway. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In real life it would be the Governor of Virginia, not Jamestown (and I believe the capital was Williamsburg by then). Is it different in the book?
Reworded to remove Jamestown. Jamestown is mentioned a little after this scene, but I realize that's not connected to this. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "royal family history" Was George Clarence royal then? This isn't made clear.
Changed to British nobility, which seems more appropriate. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Harold's father, George of Salisbury, left children in England to live as Logan among the Indigenous Mingo tribe in America." This sentence is difficult to understand.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Or it may be that Neal meant for this mass death scene at the novel's conclusion to symbolize the American Revolution's function of renewing this agglomeration of colonial-era American nations into US nationhood.[19]" I might simplify and simply state that the revolution helped combine the separate states into a single American nation".
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "but then channels into a war he leads the Mingos into against the English." The double use of "into" especially when juxtaposed with "against" is a bit awkward.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " can be read as a breakdown of literary constraints," possibly "disregard" for "breakdown". More generally, what I read you as saying in this passage, was that just as the American colonists had to throw off British rule to form a distinctly American government, American writers had to throw off British literary conventions to form a distinctly American literature. You could say it better than you do.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " but more recently" maybe "but most recently"?
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "and had worked for years on refining his theory or poetry to the point that he came to see the novel as the highest form of literature, able to communicate a poetic prose superior to formal poetry." Maybe theory of poetry was meant?
Precisely! Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "His next (also anonymously-published) novel after that, Randolph, includes this criticism of Logan from the protagonist: "Nobody can read it through, deliberately, as novels are to be read. You are fagged and fretted to death, long and long before you foresee the termination."[85] Two years after that," A timeframe would be good.
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's it for now. Interesting article.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:28, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for taking the time to read it through and write out some comments. I believe they are all addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support Wehwalt (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Suggest scaling up the Sons of Liberty illustration
I downloaded the image, cropped the border, and updated the image using "Upload a new version of this file". That went through, but the image still displays with the border. Then I tried uploading the cropped image as Boston_Tea_Party_Currier_colored_crop.jpeg, but the Upload Wizard tells me it is a duplicate of Boston Tea Party Currier colored.jpg. Do you have advice on how to proceed? Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nevermind. Figured it out. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Statue_of_Chief_Logan_the_Orator_(Logan,_West_Virginia).jpg: what's the copyright status of the statue?
I ended up swapping it out for File:Logan finding his murdered family LCCN2005683513.jpg. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Boston_Tea_Party_Currier_colored.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:The_Pioneers_illustration_by_Darley.jpg
Both changed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:John_Neal_by_Sarah_Miriam_Peale,_c._1823,_oil_on_canvas_-_Portland_Museum_of_Art_-_Portland,_Maine_-_DSC04059.jpg: when is the first known publication of this image? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Funny you should ask. When we had this conversation precisely one year ago, I said that the earliest I could find it on public display is 2013. We then decided to switch the copyright tag to PD-US-unpublished. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for reviewing the images! I believe these issues are all addressed, except scaling the Tea Party image. I'd appreciate your advice on that. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Third-party comment: It looks like you successfully cropped out the border on the image. If you are still seeing it, it is probably a caching issue in your browser. --RL0919 (talk) 14:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you! You are correct. It seems that all of the image review comments are addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "Logan is Neal's second novel," => "Logan was Neal's second novel,"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • That's all I got on the lead. Apologies, I need to drop off now, but I will endeavour to look at the rest later today or tomorrow -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:26, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I look forward to more comments. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Harold learns his father left behind" => "Harold learns that his father left behind"
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "when your nation was a collossus" - is that how that last word is spelt in the book? If so, I would suggest adding [sic] given that it isn't the correct spelling
That's a typo. Fixed! Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The Logan of real life is an Indigenous leader of the Mingo people" => "The Logan of real life was an Indigenous leader of the Mingo people"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Or it may be that Neal" - starting a sentence with "Or" does not read well, suggest changing it to "Alternatively,"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Logan is Neal's second novel, but his first of notable success" => "Logan was Neal's second novel, but his first of notable success"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "astonishment that the still life of the Pioneers," - title should be in italics
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "noting that Logan, along with Neal's subsequent novels Seventy-Six and Brother Jonathan are" => "noting that Logan and Neal's subsequent novels Seventy-Six and Brother Jonathan are" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:54, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you very much for the comments! I believe they are all addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Dabberoni15[edit]

Great article, Dugan. I only have a few points left that I didn't change when I copyedited the article a couple days ago, and then I can give it my support.

  • "John Neal wrote Logan as white American fiction authors were beginning to look toward American Indians as a dominant source of inspiration" => "John Neal wrote Logan as white American authors were beginning to look toward American Indians as a dominant source of inspiration"
  • "Harold calling for America's Indigenous nations to unify against British colonization seems to parallel calls by Anglo-Americans for revolution" => "Harold calling for America's Indigenous nations to unify against British colonization seemingly parallels calls by Anglo-Americans for revolution"
  • "The Logan of real life was an Indigenous leader of the Mingo people" => "The historical Logan was an Indigenous leader of the Mingo people"
  • "This event, sometimes referred to by scholars as a failed seduction and sometimes as an attempted rape" => "This event, which has alternatively been described by scholars as either a failed seduction or an attempted rape"
  • "but most recently, the violence committed by Anglo-American colonizers against Native Americans" => "but most recently, that which has been committed by Anglo-American colonizers against Native Americans"
  • "His depiction of public executions in the novel may have factored into the US movement to remove them to private settings" => "His depiction of public executions in the novel may have factored into the national movement to remove them to private settings"
  • "In 1821, Neal approached well-known Philadelphia publishers Carey and Lea with the manuscript of Logan" => "In 1821, Neal approached well-known Philadelphia-based publishers Carey and Lea with the manuscript of Logan"
  • "Despite the considerable influence it had on future American writers" => "Despite the considerable influence it had on successive generations of American writers"
  • "Most modern scholars agree that Logan is too incoherent to enjoy" => "The majority of modern scholars agree that Logan is too incoherent to enjoy"

@Dabberoni15: Thank you for reading through the article again and coming up with these comments! I have addressed them all. Dugan Murphy (talk) 14:16, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Albert Levitt[edit]

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 15:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about... A must unusual but undoubtedly talented individual (though, perhaps, a bit unhinged) about whom I started this article 14 years ago as part of my research on Nixon's early elections. One can focus on the religious obsessions of his later years, or his being a perennial fringe candidate in multiple states, but still, he got a trio of degrees from Ivy League universities, married a feminist and then a wealthy widow, and got a significant Supreme Court decision named after him without either going to jail or being involved in a lengthy lawsuit. Enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 15:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

SupportComments by Dugan Murphy[edit]

I'll write some out in a bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:38, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • "as a young man,": you probably want a period instead of a comma.
  • Seems worthwhile to Wikilink Unitarianism in the lead and first section of the body.
  • "1,600 miles (2,600 km) trip" should be "1,600-mile (2,600 km) trip" or another wording.
  • "Chapel, in Brooklyn": comma doesn't seem necessary.
  • Is AFS Intercultural Programs and appropriate article to Wikilink when referring to Levitt's WWI service?
  • "the war in 1917": what war? I know you mean WWI, but the article doesn't make that clear.
  • "its army": French or US?
I was trying to avoid a repetition of United States or a variant and I think the sentence is clear but I've made it explicit.
  • I recommend Wikilinking Elsie Hill from the photo caption.
  • I recommend Wikilinking ROTC.
  • I recommend Wikilinking LL.B.
  • "women's activist" is a poor phrase, I think. Maybe "women's rights activist" or "women's suffragist" instead?
  • "seeking to draft": change to "drafting" or leave as-is?
  • The sentence that starts "He also consulted with future" is too cumbersome, I think. It would likely work better as two sentences.
  • If you're going to use "NWP", then you should include it in parentheses earlier, like you do for ERA.
  • Same for "PUC" later on.
  • "claimed that they had approved": I stumbled reading this, thinking "they" were the activists, but it seems "they" are Pound and Frankfurter. I recommend rephrasing to make that more clear.
  • "not now" seems awkward. Perhaps "no longer"?
  • "friends of associates": should that be "friends and associates"?
  • Wikilink Juris Doctor for J.D.?
  • ", unconventional": I'm thinking the comma would do better as a colon.
I'm inclined to leave it as is.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:30, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "at Brussels,": should be a period instead of a comma.
  • "it was suggested": who suggested it? I recommend avoiding passive voice here if you can.
It's just a paraphrase of the source. "in accordance with the suggestion made at that time that a tentative code be prepared by each delegate."
  • "state House": should both or neither words be capitalized? I'm thinking neither.
I fear there would be ambiguity, so I've deleted it. It should be clear he was filing as an independent inn the race he just lost.
  • "state Supreme Court": similar to above, I'm thinking no capitalization needed, unless using the organization's actual name.
I don't see that the article is terribly applicable or helpful to the reader.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The sentence that starts "Governor Cross refused to debate" is another cumbersome one. I recommend breaking it up.
  • "The Courant noted,": Given that the quote that follows is two complete sentences, I believe a colon would be more appropriate than a comma.
  • When referring to congressional districts, sometimes they're capitalized, sometimes not. I think they should not be. Sometimes the numbers are spelled out and sometimes they are not. You should make that consistent in either form.
  • "Federal employees": no need to capitalize. Same with "Federal judges".
Done except for one direct quote.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Citation 55's formatting is messed up.
What's wrong with it?--Wehwalt (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Looks like it was fixed with this edit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:37, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Never heard "Interior Department" before. I've always seen "Department of the Interior". I recommend switching.
  • The sentence that starts "When Cramer was nominated" is way too much. I recommend splitting it up.
  • "Cummings'" should be "Cummings's" per MOS:'S
  • "Black had been elected for a six-year term beginning in 1933": it took me a while of wondering how he was elected to the supreme court before I realized this refers to his senate seat. I recommend rewording.
  • "as Van Devanter, as a retired justice": seems like too many ases.
  • The sentence that starts "That day, while the court sat" is way too long and has way too many commas. I recommend splitting it up and removing the need for so many commas.
  • Seems appropriate to Wikilink Union Party (United States).
  • I'm confused by the sentence that starts "Although Levitt was defeated". How is the Union Party's choice of a gubernatorial candidate connected to Levitt's loss in the probate judge race? I'm also unclear on the vote count math that in Cross's loss. I recommend rewording.
I've rephrased. Baldwin was on the ballot twice, as a Republican and as a Unionist. The combined total elected him, but he needed the Union Party votes to outpoll Cross. Levitt had successfully sued to get the Union Party on the ballot. I can't say with certainty that Levitt's lawsuit elected Baldwin, because those who voted for him on the Union Party ticket might have voted for him anyway but there was certainly the appearance of being a kingmaker.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The references to Great Britain should be changed to the UK. Great Britain is the island and UK is the country.
I've changed to Britain. Will that do?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done down to here.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I recommend adding a word here: "with the others in the Republican primary [being] cross-filing Democrats"
  • "Anti-Communist" is capitalized, but "communist" is not. I think both should not be capitalized.
  • I recommend changing "per cent" to "percent" given the article's use of American English.
  • "Army" is capitalized in the lead, but I think it shouldn't be, unless spelled out as "US Army" or something like that.
  • Infobox: doesn't list French ambulance service. Should it?
While the ambulance service was under the command of the French Army, I don't believe he had formally enlisted in military service. We do not list military service in the infobox for Ernest Hemingway, who served in Italy under similar circumstances.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The number of citations to primary (albeit WP:INDEPENDENT) source newspaper articles looked alarming to me when I first skimmed the article. Reading through it, I didn't find any use of those primary sources that clearly conflicts with WP:PRIMARY. As far as comprehensiveness is concerned, do you think there is any scholarship you're missing here that could add some analysis to this article? There is plenty of factual detail about the doings of his life, but given the reliance on primary sources, little analysis about the impact he had or his place in history. I'm also tempted to say that there's WP:EXCESSDETAIL in this article, which plays out in a lot of play-by-play of events in Levitt's life. Do you see opportunities for summarizing more? I think the lead is an appropriate summary of the article, but to me is really wanting of some analysis, which the body doesn't have, unfortunately.

Regarding the amount of detail, the article goes into greater detail in a few portions: The description of Levitt's involvement with the ERA, something that is mentioned by multiple secondary sources on the ERA. The Connecticut battles of the early 1930s, which is where he seems to have made his mark during his lifetime as it was mentioned in most versions of his obituaries that were longer than a paragraph. The judgeship: there was more of a battle over his appointment than I spend time. African-Americans wanted one of their own, given the racial makeup of the VIrgin Islands. There's a JSTOR article I have that says John Nance Garner, the VPOTUS, wanted a Texan and thought Levitt was African-American, which he didn't want. I didn't want to spend the time on it, especially as it wasn't clear why the choice fell on Levitt.
The other area where I dwell a bit is the 1950 Senate campaign. In my view, that's worth spending time on, both because the intersection with a future president, Nixon, makes it noteworthy, and because it adds to Wikipedia's existing quality writing on the 1950 Senate election, which is a FA.
The scholarship on Levitt is minimal. As I said, there's some on the ERA. There's some on his Virgin Islands judgeship, both the source I mentioned above and the ones we use in the article. There's law review commentary on Ex parte Levitt, which is a significant case in the law of standing, but it doesn't get into him as a person. It's a fair question. I like to write an assessment section to round off an article. But here, the material to work with just isn't there.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is a nice, straightforward article in an appropriately encyclopedic voice that is mostly clear and understandable. And what a figure! Dugan Murphy (talk) 06:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Many thanks. I think I've gotten to or responded to everything.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I approve your responses to all the issues I raised, including the items you kept the same. I am inclined to agree with your defense of the article's level of detail. Such is the fate of biographies of really busy people with long lives, especially when they're involved in events that require explanation for the average reader to understand. It's really too bad there isn't more scholarship on this interesting and impactful life, so we'll live with the lack of analysis. FYI: I just noticed inconsistent use of US/U.S., so I changed instances of the former to match the latter. Having done that myself, I am inclined to support this nomination on all the FA criteria but the images and sources, neither of which I looked at, though at a glance, the sources look fine. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:37, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Miss_Elsie_M._Hill,_152005v.jpg needs a US tag, and what is the author's date of death?
Replaced with another image and the tag does not go to date of death.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Levitt_for_Congress_1958.jpeg is tagged as lacking description. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've fixed that image description. Thank you for the image review.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Putting down a marker... - SchroCat (talk) 20:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've heard of 'never the bridesmaid, never the bride', but this guy takes the prize on it!

  • A brief aside, but I'm trying out the new Vector skin for a bit – without the TOC between lead and first section, it does push infoboxes quite far down the articles. This one reaches to part way through the Harvard and the ERA section on my screen (although that will vary on a myriad of grounds for others). There's nothing to do about it, but its lucky the photo of Elsie Hill is not pushed out of her section altogether.
  • "minister, attorney, and government official" uses a serial comma, "Connecticut, California and New Hampshire" doesn't. Whichever you choose should be consistent
Harvard and the ERA
  • "Dean Pound was willing": Just "Pound", rather than the title?
Roving professor
  • "receiving his J.D.": I had to use the blue link to find out what a JD was – maybe a couple of words to help?
I've made it clear he was going to law school.
Judge (1935–1936)
  • "President Roosevelt": Just "Roosevelt"?
1950 Senate primary
  • Nixon "had in fact been responsible for aiding the Communist Party": while I presume there was little or no basis for this, I think you may need to give a detail or two on exactly why Levitt thought that?
The source spares us his reasoning. However, it seems consistent with his other bêtes noires, such as his commentary on McCarthy, that in attacking the communists, they were in fact aiding them.
Perennial candidate
  • "Albert Levitt gave an address": just "Levitt"?
Well, now you have two Levitts and Lilla said she was from Frederick, Maryland.
  • You don't link "vice president" (nor "president", above): I presume this is deliberate, but I'll raise the question in case it's an oversight
Yes, seems to me a low probability click, that in looking at what is certainly not a basic-level article on American law and politics, that a link to those offices would be necessary for the reader.
  • "He continued to warn against the "subversive" political activities of the Catholic Church."[125]" There's an extra quote mark here

That's the lot from me; he seems an eccentric sort, forever tilting at windmills! Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 12:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Indeed. Levitt is, quite possibly, an epitome of misguided talent. Thanks for the comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support All good - either in your edits, or your reasons for not picking up on the suggestions. Nice piece on someone I'd never heard of before. (Caveat: I have no knowledge on the subject, so this is a review only of the prose, and not of the completeness or reliability of the sources used.) Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:32, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Could Levitt's political party affiliation be inserted in the infobox? Seeming that he ran multiple times for Congress, and that he was both a Democrat and Republican, it seems important enough to be included to me. -- Politicsfan4 (talk) 04:06, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've added that. Thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment by WhatamIdoing[edit]

I think there should be a link to Anti-Catholicism in the United States somewhere in this article. It's a little weird to read about an anti-Catholic US politician without mentioning the broader subject.

I've piped it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Also, I wonder whether he really opposed "the Vatican" (the city–state) per se, or if this is a sort of rhetorical metonymy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:39, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've rephrased that slightly.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:17, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alexis Soyer[edit]

Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 18:19, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Having been party (with SchroCat) to getting the English food writers Elizabeth David and Jane Grigson to FA, I now present for scrutiny a French chef, who made his career in London. He was an adventurous fellow, and eventually died, young, having picked up at least one horrible disease when helping Florence Nightingale improve the conditions of British troops in the Crimean War. Before that, he revolutionised kitchen design, transforming smoky hell-holes into healthier working spaces. He also did his bit to alleviate the Irish potato famine. Quite a lad! I hope I have done him justice. I'm grateful to Chiswick Chap for a most helpful review at GAN, and I offer the article for consideration here. Tim riley talk 18:19, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Unlimitedlead[edit]

Hey, Tim. I'll begin this review over the next few days. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:39, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The Manual of Style (WP:OVERLINK section) tells us not to link countries, capital cities, or everyday words and phrases. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Many of the aforementioned missing links likewise do not appear in the article either.
  • Please briefly mention Florence Nightingale in the lead before name-dropping her. Sadly, the only reason I even know who that is is the American sitcom Austin & Ally.
  • "Emery Soyer and his wife, who are thought to have been Protestants..." Though by whom? Historians?
  • As far I know, by everyone who has written about the subject. Some state it unequivocally; other less so, and I have drafted in the light of that. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "...his association with the fallen Bourbon elite made him..." The House of Bourbon was a royal house, so maybe "elite" isn't the most appropriate word to use here.
  • Being king or one of his ministers seems pretty élite to me. Happy to replace it with a better alternative if you can suggest one Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It just occurred to me: maybe aristocracy?
That is fine, and now adopted. Tim riley talk 20:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The Early years section says that "[Soyer's] career in Paris was halted by the July Revolution in 1830", but the London section goes on to say "By the time of the 1830 revolution in France, Philippe Soyer had been living and working in London for several years". I don't know if it's just me, but these sentences sound like they contradict each other. How can Soyer's career in Paris be influenced by the 1830 revolution if he had been living in London for years before 1830?
  • The article is about Alexis Soyer. It was, as we state, Philippe Soyer − whom we have met two paragraphs earlier − who was living in London in 1830. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The paragraph beginning with "The kitchen used a variety of fuels: coal, charcoal, and gas..." could use a lot of hyperlinks.
  • WP:OVERLINK applies here. I can't believe any reader will need to be told what coal or gas is. I've linked charcoal, just in case the word is unfamiliar to any reader of the article. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Afterthought: your raising the point prompted me to look elsewhere in the article, and I have added links to three culinary terms with which some may be unfamiliar: whitebait, lark and truffle. Thank you for raising the point in general. Tim riley talk 18:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Probably OK and not a violation of WP:OVERLINK − so done. Perhaps other reviewers would be kind enough to give a view on this, though. 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
  • The phrase "and to give up alcohol, of which he had long been a devotee" sounds awkward. Perhaps "devotee" is not the best word to use here.
  • I struggled with this when drafting, and will happily substitute a better wording if you can suggest one. From the sources, he clearly liked a glass or two, but to what extent is not clear. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Maybe "partaker"? This won't affect my decision to support, however. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:32, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Unlimitedlead (talk) 14:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, Tim; I enjoyed this light read. I'll go ahead and support this nomination. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for your review and now for your support. I enjoyed writing the article and I'm delighted you enjoyed reading it. Tim riley talk 19:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Alexis-Soyer-by-Emma-Soyer.png: how can this be dated to 1847 when the author died in 1842?
  • Good question. I can't recall where I got the April 1847 date from (I think it might be when the Reform Club acquired the picture.) Adjusted. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Emma-Soyer-self-portrait.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Reform-Club-kitchens.png, File:Fanny-Cerrito-1842.png
  • Emma Soyer: No information about first publication. As both artist and engraver died more than 100 years ago I thought the "PD:old" tag would cover it. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Reform-Club-kitchens: Published as a print in 1842 in London. But again, I thought the PD:old tag was appropriate. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Fanny Cerito: No information about when and where it was first published. The artist died in 1876, and again, I took it that the life+100-year rule applied. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Soyer's-soup-kitchen.jpg: suggest using the tagging from File:Pacha-iln-banquet.jpg instead
  • Serves me right for using anything from Commons! Replaced with tagged image. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Support I did a review offline for this pre-GAN, and the article has only strengthened since then. - SchroCat (talk) 13:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Thank you, SC: I have much appreciated your off-line reviews (and your rummaging for sources) for me during your Wiki-break, and am chuffed to have you back with us. − Tim riley talk 17:14, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support by Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review.

  • "He left the Reform in 1850", Optional: give Reform Club in full.
  • Once it has been given in full it seems unidiomatic not to refer it just as the Reform, rather as having referred to, say, the Savoy Theatre, one would then just call it the Savoy, and ditto the Ritz Hotel and subsequently just the Ritz. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " In the Crimea, Soyer was seriously ill, and never fully recovered his health." I know I am a comma minimalist, but are you sure about those two? Or at least the first.
  • I too am a comma grudger, but "In the Crimea Soyer" looks odd to me. I could lose the second comma without missing it, though. What think you? Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "persona non grata". I do not believe that this needs italics, but if it does it needs a language template.
  • I see what you mean, but our WP article italicises the term in its title and in its text, without labelling it a foreign phrase. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
WP is not a RS, and certainly not a HQ one. In my personal opinion this is not a foreign phrase, and so does not need italics. The MoS is clear: if foreign it needs a lang template; if not, it doesn't need italics.
Italics removed. The OED is clearly wrong. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The duke died in July". Upper case D?
  • I would prefer one, but the MoS is agin it, as far as I can work out. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "London's reigning celebrity chef." Optional: reigning is not encyclopedic; perhaps "London's most celebrated chef"?
  • "the recently-founded Reform Club". Perhaps a brief explanation of what this was/did?
  • Not a footnote, in the end, but a brief phrase in the body of the text. Tim riley talk 18:05, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link entrée.
  • "During the Irish potato famine". Is it known when this took place?
  • Our article on the famine says from 1845 to 1852. I think the blue link suffices in the Soyer article, but will add the dates in brackets if you insist. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You will have me quoting MOS:NOFORCELINK at you.
I don't see how it could be thought to apply here, but to appease you I have added the starting date of the famine. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Books: Langley seems out of alphabetical order.
  • I'm only seventy-one: you can't expect me to have learned a firm grasp of alphabetical order yet. Rejigged. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "passed an Act authorising". Lower-case a.
  • Are you sure? I suppose 39 years as a civil servant and then a Crown employee have coloured my usage. I'd write "an act of treachery" but "an Act of Parliament". If the MoS says otherwise I'll comply, natch. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm sure. Every specialist, in whatever area, things that their important phrases should have leading italics. (Let us not speak of Military Persons' views.) Even if you were correct, a bare "the Act" would still be incorrect.
OK. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I look forward to it, and thanks for the comments so far. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "pro bono publico". A language template please.
  • the OED says it's an English phrase, and doesn't italicise it (unlike persona non grata) so I've removed the italics. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Soyer decided that each regiment". Now, "regiment" can mean two things in the UK, and a third, different, thing in the US. That being so, when your sources say "regiment", do they mean 'battalion'? (And yes, a (British) battalion would have a "regimental" cook. Don't ask.)
  • "He was then asked to design new kitchens at Wellington Barracks, which were opened in July 1858." To me "new kitchens" implies replacement kitchens, while "which were opened" suggests they weren't. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • They were new kitchens for an existing barracks, and were opened in 1858. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • IMHO the quantity of quotations falls the wrong side of MOS:QUOTE. ("While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style ... It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate".) Consider some judicious trimming and/or rephrasing in your own inimitable words. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • There are very few quotations other than from press reports, which must obviously, I think, be given verbatim. "The Daily Thing said it was frightfully good" doesn't seem to me very helpful to our readers. Which of the quotes would you rewrite, and how? Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fresh look[edit]

Apologies for the delay Tim. We have fundamental differences so infrequently that I wanted to take a break and come back with as fresh a pair of eyes as I could manage.

The main article has 31 quotations, I list them here. They total 915 words. The text of the main article - excluding the table at the end but including the quotes - has 3,912 words. I do not accept that press reports need to be given in full nor that the only option is to give them verbatim; surely the art of writing a Wikipedia article is paraphrasing one's sources [sauces?]. Which and how is for a nominator, but personally I rather like numbers 8, 15 26 and 28. Purely by way of example, I do not see that numbers 2, 6, the first part of 9, the latter majority of 22 and (all of) 30 are necessary as quotes and believe that the prose would actually be improved by paraphrased into your fine style. A sprinkling of quotations for piquancy is a fine thing, lathering the delicate texture of an article in them less so.

In any event, I continue be unhappy in relation to MOS:QUOTE. If you continue to disagree, then I hope that you can see why I am of that opinion. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:32, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

320 words of quotation removed and others paraphrased. Tim riley talk 19:04, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:14, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for your support and your helpful comments, above. Tim riley talk 19:18, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by WhatamIdoing[edit]

Looking only at the lead: It's the normal length for a FAC, but it has about half as many links (as calculated against both the number of sentences in the lead and by the word count in the lead) as the average TFA. That's not inherently a bad thing, but I suggest that it might be something you'd like to look at. The primary point of a link isn't to give people a dictionary definition. It's to give them navigation opportunities. For example, someone reading this article about a chef might want to read about Cookery books, alternatives to bread (a red link, so I understand if now's not the time to add it), or kitchen design. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:32, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Interesting, and point taken. Thanks for raising it. I'll revisit the matter, though I am conscious of the MoS's guidance (WP:OVERLINK) not to link familiar everyday terms. Tim riley talk 13:20, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've added a couple of extra blue-links. Do please suggest any more that might be OK within WP:OVERLINK. Tim riley talk 17:59, 1 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments Support from KJP1[edit]

Not seeing much to quibble over, and it's an interesting retelling of a full life. What little I identified:

  • "He took a keen interest in social welfare - I wonder if "public health" more accurately conveys what he was interested in? But perhaps it was wider than just the health aspect?
  • Yes, nutrition for even the poorest is a matter of public health. Done. Tim riley talk 16:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "but his venture failed and lost a great deal of money" - "but his venture failed and lost him a great deal of money"?
  • "In the Crimea, Soyer was seriously ill;" - "became seriously ill"?
  • "Cambridge House, the duke's mansion in Piccadilly" - I hesitate to debate London street terminology with a renowned boulevardier, but isn't the In and Out on, rather than in, Piccadilly?
  • Good God, no! All right in AmE but not in BrE. A quick search in the online archive of The Times brings up 452 incidences of "on Piccadilly" (and that includes such phrases as "converging on Piccadilly") and 8,329 incidences of "in Piccadilly". Tim riley talk 16:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "William Lloyd, a rich landowner, who owned Upper Brook Street, Mayfair" - I'm sure it's what the source says, but did he really own Upper Brook Street? We're talking 1830s/40s and the Survey of London suggests it was, as it is, part of the Grosvenor estate.
  • Hmmm. That's a bit worrying. I'll do a bit more rummaging and adjust if necessary. Thank you v. much for spotting this. Tim riley talk 16:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "after Soyer moved on after a year" - "when Soyer..." to avoid the duplicate?
Reform Club
  • Image - merely a question, but why is there a dog in the middle of the kitchen? Is it a rat-catcher?
  • Pass! I shouldn't be surprised if you're right. The picture seems to have been commissioned by Soyer, so he must have been happy to have the dog included in it. Tim riley talk 16:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Done.
  • Well I'm blest! I've just overhauled the pot-au-feu article. Fancy my missing that! Tim riley talk 16:15, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

And that's it. Aside from the Lloyd/Upper Brook query, the comments are so trivial that I'm fine to Support as it stands. I know you'll adjust as you see fit. KJP1 (talk) 15:07, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you, KJ. Support and comments much appreciated. I'll certainly follow up the point about Upper Brook Street. Tim riley talk 16:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've redrawn the sentence about Upper Brook Street so that it now says only that Lloyd had a town house there, which all the sources agree on. We are so lucky in Wikipedia to have PR and FAC processes that can catch such errors; authors of printed books have to live with their mistakes: in a history of the English National Opera I came across the statement that so-and-so died of "cancer of the sarcophagus". Tim riley talk 16:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Some years ago, I had a rather sad correspondence with the editor of the only book on William Burges's work in Ireland. He was very disappointed with the outcome, on which he'd worked for years, principally due to the quality of the illustrations. Rather unhelpfully, I also drew his attention to a chapter where one of the contributors claimed that Burges had travelled in the Middle East, when he never went further than Constantinople. The book will likely never be revised/reissued and someday someone will insert that "fact" into Burges's article. KJP1 (talk) 07:01, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • appalling privations endured by British soldiers "Appalling" and "endured" in Wikipedia's voice are editorialising, much as the phrase rolls off the tongue!
  • I try to avoid quotations in the lead, so have put "appalling privations" in quotes in the main text with a citation to the source. I've done likewise for the "endured"; the source actually says "suffered", but there is or was an editor with a thing about the word "suffer" and for a quiet life I try not to use it except in quotes. Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • newly-appointed full-time chef you don't need a hyphen with an -ly adverb; ditto recently-founded Reform Club
  • He was unharmed he → Soyer
  • At the suggestion of his brother Philippe brother is already named; also, comma?
  • There were three other brothers, hence the use of Philippe's name (and, as it's a restrictive phrase, hence too the absence of a comma; with a comma it would be non-restrictive and Philippe would be Alexis's only brother.) Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Stafford House (now Lancaster House), was considered the grandest in the capital. [by whom?]
  • The cited source says "The Sutherlands lived in unrivalled splendour … and Stafford House, their London home, was widely considered the grandest residence in the capital. … its magnificence showed up neighbouring Buckingham Palace for the draughty old farmhouse that it was. " Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The article currently just says "it was considered" in the passive voice. Without attribution, the reader can't tell if it was considered such by Soyer, Queen Victoria, the postman, your Uncle Fred, or Wikipedia. "According to Cower" or similar is all it needs. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:54, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The link on Thames-side is a bit awkward; one would expect to be directed to an article called "Thames-side". Perhaps just "riverside" (with or without hyphens or spaces and no link) would suffice?
  • Soyer's kitchens at the Reform were the most talked of in the country "talked of" probably *does* need a hyphen
  • I see what you mean. The phrase is used in what a grammarian might consider a quasi-attributive way, and so can be hyphenated. Done. Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In the last days of the Symposium, Soyer received an unexpected letter from France. It was from his son with Adelaide Lamain. She had died in 1836, and their son, Jean Alexis Lamain, had only recently learned who his father was. He asked to meet him and Soyer agreed. The two met in London and the father acknowledged his son (and later made him his heir) though the two agreed not to publicise their relationship The whole paragraph seems a little verbose for the amount of important information conveyed. Can we pare it back?
  • undertaking another pro bono publico assignment "pro bono publico" probably belongs in italics
  • Our WP article on the phrase can't make up its mind whether to italicise it or not, but the OED doesn't, and I think I'll go with that. Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In 1855 reports of the appalling conditions, including inadequate food, endured by British soldiers same concern as above with "appalling" and "endured"
  • Done. Thanks for that. My knowledge of military matters is more or less nil. Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • under the elaborate memorial he had erected to his wife Just because I rather like Victorian cemeteries and monuments, is there a freely licenced photo?
  • I think so, and I'd have liked to include one – the memorial is a splendid affair – but there really isn't room for it at the appropriate place in the text. Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's it from me. Mostly pedantry really. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:02, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for these, Harry. (Nothing wrong with pedantry anyway: as Fowler says, "my pedantry is your scholarship, his reasonable accuracy, her irreducible minimum of education, & someone else's ignorance".) I'll enjoy working my way through your points tomorrow. Tim riley talk 20:19, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Responses as above. Thank you, Harry – some good points there. Tim riley talk 09:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support. Everything of import has been addressed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:08, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Suggestions and support gratefully received − many thanks, Harry. Tim riley talk 15:50, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • Should "persona non grata" be italicised?
  • The Oxford English Dictionary treats the phrase as assimilated into English, and does not italicise it. Our own Wikipedia article on the term lurches from italics to roman and back again; I think it prudent to stick to the OED's formula. Tim riley talk 19:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Regarding the Reform Club, you refer to "Soyer's kitchens" but in the caption it is "Soyer's kitchen".
  • Good point. I concur that I need to be consistent, but I'm not sure whether singular or plural is the idiomatic form for the cooking area of a London club. I'll check the sources and (I hope) find out what the accepted form is. Tim riley talk 19:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • As Elizabeth David and Elizabeth Ray go for the plural, I have now standardised on that. I don't argue with Mrs David! Tim riley talk 19:24, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "the privations breing suffered by the troops" Is this the proper quote? Perhaps a sic if so?
  • "He was then asked to design new kitchens for the existing Wellington Barracks; he was present at the opening of the new kitchens in July 1858.[7]" I might avoid the repetition if possible. Better, I might consolidate the reference to the barracks kitchens under "death", since the opening is mentioned there, and the level of detail seems similar.
  • Yes. Oddly enough I was looking at this very point a few minutes ago, and reached the same conclusion as you. Done. Tim riley talk 19:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It appears an expert chef has well-prepared an intellectual meal. Well done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for these points, Wehwalt. All very much ad rem. Tim riley talk 19:16, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Note to the coordinators[edit]

I am about to be away for 12 days from Wednesday 8th, barging down the Nile. I am assured I shall have internet access most of the time but, just in case, if there is a long silence from me, I beg for your forbearance till I'm back in London. Tim riley talk 19:37, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Music of Mesopotamia[edit]

Nominator(s): GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 06:33, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is my first time at FAC. I’ll be responsive to making changes during the process, and I'll also ping @Aza24 and @Furius. Thank you! GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 06:33, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coordinator comments[edit]

  • As the nominator is a first time FACer, the article will require a spot check for source to text fidelity.
  • Hi GuineaPigC77, can I ask if you were/are being mentored per the FAC instructions? "Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination."

Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:12, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi @Gog the Mild, I don't have a formal mentor; it seems I made a mistake. I did read that statement (including the bold part), but took away from this conversation that it was appropriate to proceed without further involvement. I benefited from a lot of mentorship from Aza24 and Furius during the preparation of the article, but it seems my mistake is that the mentorship is supposed to be both formal and also FAC-specific. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 21:41, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's not obligatory, just strongly advised. Let's see how the nomination goes. Mentoring can definitely be informal, and does not need to be ongoing. Were they aware that you were aiming this article at FAC when they were advising you? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:50, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We were discussing a GA goal at that time (summer / fall 2022). Since then, I haven't heard from them except for for this message. I followed Aza24's advice to proceed with the GA nomination and have pinged them a few times, but neither has participated on the talk page since mid-October. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 22:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fair enough. Not a problem. FAC can be unexpectedly tough on first timers, and it helps to have a "native guide". But as I said above, let's see how it goes. In the end it's all about the article. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:43, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@GuineaPigC77: That's on me, I didn't think to check that it was your first FAC (which honestly should have occurred to me based on your questions). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:50, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It would have been better if I had said so outright. I generally try to be upfront about my inexperience, but this is a case where I definitely should have highlighted it. I will do my best here. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 21:37, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@GuineaPigC77: Happy to recuse myself as a reviewer here to assist as mentor, and however else I can. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:09, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That would be wonderful, @Iazyges. I accept! Thanks so much for offering. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 00:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Driveby comment[edit]

Thank you for working so extensively on a top-level article about an ancient culture. I know all too well how difficult that is. This looks like a promising FA candidate, but I think its organization needs adjustment. "Background" is a normal section title in articles about events, but not on broad topics such as this, and well-developed articles shouldn't need "overview" sections, as the lead of the article is supposed to serve as its overview. I think each of the subsections of "overview" ("uses of music", "music education", and "musicians") can be broken out into a top-level section of its own. "Background" is more of a puzzle. The latter two subsections ("surviving works" and "surviving instruments") probably belong in a section titled "evidence", but I don't know what to do with the first section ("context"). Much of it is general information about Mesopotamian civilization that is unnecessary here, while most of the rest seems like it is summarizing information that is found later in the article, in which case it should probably be moved to the lead. A. Parrot (talk) 07:04, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks A. Parrot for your comments. Airship's mockup makes sense to me and seems to address some of your concerns. Regarding the context section, perhaps we keep the last 4 sentences of the current Context section (beginning with Much of what researchers know...) and incorporate it into the lead. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 17:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Phlsph7[edit]

I agree with A. Parrot that it looks promising and that something needs to be done about the sections "Background" and "Overview". For "Background", I don't think that we need the subsection "Context" since the reader can look up these details in the corresponding articles. Or keep only the details that are directly relevant to the music. The remaining section could be titled "Historical evidence" or "Surviving artifacts" and should probably be moved somewhere to the bottom of the article. The section "Overview" seems to discuss mostly the role of music in Mesopotamia society. What about renaming it to "Role in society" or something similar?

Would it make sense to have a comparison of the different Mesopotamian civilizations somewhere? For example, concerning the musical differences between Sumerian, Assyrian, Akkadian, and Babylonian civilizations? You are probably more knowledgeable about whether there are important general differences worth discussing.

I've spotted various minor issues with the prose:

  • The Mesopotamians had an elaborate system of music theory, and some level of music education.: remove comma after "theory"
  • later known known as Babylonia—where several large cities emerged: remove one "known"
  • Religion and writing help set the stage for a music culture in this region: use past tense for "help"
  • ancient city of Ugarit, modern day Syria, dating: add hyphen "modern-day"
  • divided into songs of varying length separated: use plural: "lengths"
  • but also because there was “no sweet-sounding musical instruments: replace "was" with "were"
  • The bull was then singed: is "singed" supposed to be "signed" or "sung"?
  • dance can be distinguished on wall reliefs, cylinder seals, and painted pottery, and depictions of musical instruments accompany them: remove "and" before "painted pottery". Or maybe reformulate the sentence: there are too many commas and "ands"
  • musicians in temples survive, and reveal that a large number: remove comma before "and"
  • necked instrument sitting at the back of boat in a musician's posture: add "a" before "boat"
  • they are instructions which tell a musician how he or she can change a sammû instrument's: replace "which" with "that"
  • A corpus of thousands of surviving clay tablets provide additional details about : replace "provide" with "provides"
  • time as similar instrument in Egypt, the nefer.: add "a" before "similar"
  • The text jumps between English variants. If you want to default to American English, you should change:
    • pictographic and ideographic stylisations would: "stylizations"
    • contains a catalogue of song titles organized: "catalog"
  • Most of the text uses Oxford commas but they are still missing at several locations (see WP:Oxford comma):
    • which includes artifacts, artistic depictions and written records
    • use in secular occasions included festivals, warfare and funerals
    • Nimrud, Khorsabad and Nineveh
    • Major cities of Sumer included Ur, Uruk, Larsa and Lagash
    • reading, writing, religion, the sciences, law and medicine
    • rattles, sistra, cymbals, bells and drums

Other observations:

  • WP:EARWIG shows no copyright violations
  • User:Headbomb/unreliable shows no unreliable sources
  • User:Evad37/duplinks-alt.js shows no duplicate wikilinks
  • There are no unreferenced paragraphs.
  • Some cases of WP:OVERCITE:
    • The "Hymn to Nikkal" (pictured) is considered to be the oldest surviving substantially complete written music in the world.[1][2][3][4]
    • is considered to be the oldest surviving substantially complete written music in the world.[1][2][3][4]
Thanks for your comments, Phlsph7. As for the bullet points first, I've implemented your suggested changes. The only difference: I used "singed" from the source. An alternative could be "superficially burned" or "seared". More replies coming. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 16:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Regarding WP:OVERCITE, I used extra citations here given that it's a hefty claim. But we could scale it back to the first two.