Talk:Five freedoms: Difference between revisions

Sources

Owain, for info on this in the USA, here's a source you can use: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=19358

And also this. Both are a free sign up for a subscription and you can pretty easily opt out of all the junk mail. Great magazine, excellent source for many things. Montanabw^(talk) 00:05, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Perfect, thanks. I was going to ask you to cast your eye over this and another new article once i created the second, but you beat me to it. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 05:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

What's the other one? Montanabw^(talk) 03:16, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Not done it yet, buts its going to be equine dental technician. Might be after veterinary medicine in the United States now. OwainDavies ^(about)_(talk) edited at 06:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Title it Equine dentistry maybe, not just the profession, but the job. It's much needed. See horse teeth as a base, plenty to steal there. I can contribute some generalized USA info, though insufficient time to give you a lot of research -- but The Horse is an outstanding resource for all things USA and veterinary ... of note here is that there is a spat between vets and non-vet dental tech over who should be doing this -- the vets want the paraprofessionals out. Montanabw^(talk) 17:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 1 June 2025

Five freedoms → Five Freedoms – The term "Five Freedoms" is a proper name and should be capitalized for grammar reasons. It is capitalized in the academic literature. See for example these journal articles [1], [2], and [3], this abstract for a book chapter, and the Animal Humane Society website [4] and this Michigan State University publication. 4meter4 (talk) 01:57, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose per strong evidence in book n-grams, as well as the usage proposed in the 1979 originating formalization that says "We believe that an animal's welfare, whether on farm, in transit, at market or at a place of slaughter should be considered in terms of 'five freedoms'." Dicklyon (talk) 17:34, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

That isn't how it is presented in the academic literature. It's treated like a proper name.4meter4 (talk) 18:29, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

See WP:SSF. Also note that in Scholar search, they're pretty mixed. Dicklyon (talk) 21:55, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Meh. "five freedoms" as a phrase is non-defining in my opinion whereas Five Freedoms as the proper name of specific model is defining.4meter4 (talk) 22:00, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

To me that reads like WP:COMMONSENSE. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:28, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Randy Kryn Can you please clarify your opinion with a formal vote. Thanks.4meter4 (talk) 03:00, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support per Randy's COMMONSENSE argument. Clearly treated like it is: a proper name. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 19:18, 2 June 2025 (UTC)

  Randy's "common sense" is that any phrase that defines a topic ought to be capitalized to signify that. But that's completely contrary to Wikipedia's guideline MOS:CAPS and title policy WP:NCCAPS. I suggest giving those a read. Dicklyon (talk) 13:02, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

  "A man who speaks for another's thoughts should have head on straight or sideways, but not backwards towards whence he came" - Aris Totle. The term, uppercased, denotes a specific proper name when the entire name is given. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:44, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support The correct phrase is "Five Freedoms" with capitals used in animal welfare literature and seen here by the Farm Animal Welfare Committee [5] Veg Historian (talk) 14:39, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

That seems to discredit Dicklyon's claim given it is their term, and it is capitalized in the UK government archive. Thanks for finding that.4meter4 (talk) 15:44, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support The first reference, [6], uses "Five Freedoms" as a proper name. The third reference UK National Archives uses "Five Freedoms" as a proper name. Reference 10, SPCA New Zealand uses "Five Freedoms" as a proper name. No other ref addresses any other title. There are three RS supporting "Five Freedoms" as a proper name and none opposing it.

(edit add sources) A simple Google search of "Five Freedoms" turns up these sources - and thats only page 2. [7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]. Sammy D III (talk) 22:39, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

The references from those three sources are no longer valid if the information in them has been changed. Existing RS content will no longer be supported and should be removed if this page is not moved. Sammy D III (talk) 20:56, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

• Support per discussion, sources, and, as mentioned earlier, commonsense prevails for proper names. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:59, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose: We have Five precepts and Five precepts (Taoism), which are conceptually similar and much more prominent topics, and Dicklyon has effectively shown that usage is mixed. Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization, and capitalization is unnecessary in this case. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:50, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

I just posted three refs which say that "Five Freedoms" is a proper name. Do you have anything that says that they are not proper names? You want to change sourced proper names used by editors simply because you don't like capital letters? Doesn't that change the source material? Sammy D III (talk) 19:04, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

@BarrelProof That's a false analogy. They aren't at all related or similar. I don't know how you could reasonably compare a religious belief system (which is a philosophy) to a government designed measurement tool for animal welfare analysis. There's a big difference between an ontological religious belief specific to a religion and a specific UK government model designed for the purpose of measuring animal welfare. The UK government archives capitalize the model in the literature, and it is treated as a proper name by the UK government who made the model. 4meter4 (talk) 19:59, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

Some people use different capitalization conventions than Wikipedia does. Of course it is possible to find examples of sources that capitalize the term, but it is also possible to find examples of sources that don't. Governments in particular, often capitalize things to indicate officialness or significance, which is not what Wikipedia generally does. Plurals are generally not really proper names. This is one of those borderline subjects on which different simply people have different opinions. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

Do you deny believe that "Five Freedoms" is a proper name? No opinion, no borderline, do you deny it Do you believe it? (Games, you have already answered, thanks.) Sammy D III (talk) 21:04, 7 June 2025 (UTC) Sammy D III (talk) 21:53, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

The word 'deny' implies a presumption that it is a proper name, so I dislike the use of the word. Your use of boldfaced capital letters also implies that it is a proper name. I also dislike being treated like a hostile witness being demanded to answer specific questions, so I considered not replying, and I might not reply further if one of you replies to this to have the 'last word'. Yes, I think "five freedoms" is not a proper name. I think it's description of a specific list of "freedoms" (and merely referring to a specific subject does not make something a proper name). If it was a proper name, practically all sources would always capitalize it. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:27, 7 June 2025 (UTC)