Talk:Brandon Teena

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Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated, especially about which pronouns to use for Teena. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting on that topic, and read through the list of highlighted discussions below before starting a new one:

The subject of which pronouns to use for Teena has been discussed here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. Per MOS:GENDERID, Teena should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns that reflect his gender self-identification as male.

Restarting a debate that has already been settled constitutes disruptive editing, tendentious editing, and "asking the other parent", unless consensus changes.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (center, color, defense, realize, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article was nominated for deletion on 19 May 2009. The result of the discussion was speedy Keep/withdrawn.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article relates to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, a contentious topic. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator.

This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans men. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.

If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBTQ+ WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 31, 2013 and December 31, 2023.

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"anatomically female"

User @82.4.161.186: replaced "was anatomically female" with "had a vagina" with edit summary "To say that someone has female anatomy is transphobic. Teena was a man with a vagina". User @Philipnelson99: reverted with no explanation.

The IP user is correct that it is transphobic. I will add that terms like "anatomically female" or "biologically female" don't really make sense when applied to a trans body, and are needlessly vague when "had a vagina" is clear and concise. --Wickedterrier (talk) 03:16, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why the technically accurate term "anatomically female" would be considered transphobic. Can you point to a style guide or two to support that contention?- Mr X 🖋 03:18, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure it is accurate though. People tend to have more than one piece of anatomy. Some people have boobs and a penis. Would such a person be "anatomically female" because they have boobs? Or "anatomically male" because they have a penis? "had a vagina" is completely unambiguous.

Here's a guide from HRC: https://www.hrc.org/resources/reporting-about-transgender-people-read-this

No. 7 mentions the term "biological" and "anatomical" is being used here in much the same way.

GLAAD mentions problems with the term too: https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender --Wickedterrier (talk) 03:48, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MrX and Philipnelson99: I have to agree with Wickedterrier and the IP on this one. There's really nothing about genitalia that's "female" or "male", and "had a vagina" is unambiguous. However, the source doesn't actually say anything about Teena's genitalia: Grabbing Brandon, they unfastened his pants and pulled them down, demanding that Lana have a look. They wanted her to just admit that Brandon was a girl. According to her account, she shielded her eyes. They insisted, so she looked but said nothing. Perhaps it would be better to reword the sentence to During a Christmas Eve party, Nissen and Lotter grabbed Teena and forced him to remove his pants to show Tisdel his genitalia or somesuch? GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:32, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I take your point GorillaWarfare and agree that your proposed wording would be an improvement.- Mr X 🖋 19:39, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure HRC really applies for this. It wasn't really used to contrast trans with real men, only to the extent that mentioning being trans does. GLAAD only mentions anatomy as the way to determine sex, so in the meaning that there is a specific female anatomy.

It might be time to change it back after 5 years. 2A01:36D:118:C86F:61A7:135:644E:BBDF (talk) 11:36, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name query

Note 1, right at the very beginning, says, "Other names may include his legal name, as well as 'Billy Brenson' and 'Teena Ray'", but under "other names" the infobox has "Billy Brinson". Presumably Brinson and Brenson are referring to the same name, but which spelling is correct? Alternatively, if both are, perhaps at least "Brinson" could be added to the note? Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 19:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Deadname

I object to this terminology in the article as I believe it needlessly pushes the discussion in a political direction. This will distract from the substance of the article and Teena's story. I edited to "pre-transition name" (with a link to the deadnaming article), but that appears to have been reverted and the page locked. Is there guidance from Wikipedia on this sort of thing? Alta-Snowbird (talk) 04:08, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, i reverted you primarily because (as i explained in the edit summary) your edit was poor grammar; you can't just pull out a noun ~ "deadname" ~ and replace it willy-nilly with an adjective ~ "pre-transition" ~ because they are different parts of speech and function differently in sentences. You could, i suppose, have written "pre-transition name", but that is very close to what we have as "deadname". The best place i can point you is to this guidance. As far as i can tell, from there and from our article, it is fairly regular and usual nowadays to use the word "deadname", which i think i what you are objecting to? It certainly is not a political statement, except to those who choose to make it so, which seem to be a close to circular Venn diagram with those who deny transition. If i have entirely misunderstood you, i apologise and ask you to re-explain just what you mean ~ Lindsay^Hello 11:22, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I agree entirely with Lindsay's reasoning. "Deadname" is a perfectly common and neutral term; if a reader does not understand what it means, there is an article about it that's linked from the word. --bonadea contributions talk 13:18, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly my mistake on "pre-transition" rather than "pre-transition name". Thanks for catching.

I suppose I disagree about whether deadname is meant to be political. Seems intended to evoke emotion and add confrontation to someone's name. I think that is ultimately counterproductive, but this page is not the place to adjudicate that, so I won't revise further. Alta-Snowbird (talk) 19:48, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Call him Brandon. He is Brandon. To call him Teena is to disregard his identity and is an attempt to feminize him, surname or not. 174.116.61.180 (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In an encyclopaedia we always refer to subjects by their surnames, except when we are giving their full name. We are not trying to avoid saying Brandon. It's just encyclopaedic tone. Have a look at a few articles about other people. You will see that we always do this. Yes, it is unfortunate that his surname is an uncommon surname that also sounds similar to a feminine forename. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about that. If you look at articles about other people who have/had surnames that sound like gendered forenames you will see that it is the same there. If there are any places where we are using the name unnecessarily then those can be changed to "he" but I don't think there is anything else we can do about this. I'll have a look and see what I can find. Please just understand that this is how encyclopaedias do it for all biographies. We are not treating him differently because he was trans. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:46, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I was able to replace 17 uses of "Teena" and also expand one to "Brandon Teena". It's not easy because there are long narrative sections where other men are involved and often we can't replace with "he" without it becoming confusing as to who we are referring to. Anyway, I think it's better than it was. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:13, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Legal/birth name

I think many readers are going to find it confusing how the article talks about the subject's legal name / birth name, but appears to be unwilling to directly mention what it was:

Since "Brandon Teena" was never his legal name, it is uncertain the extent to which this name was used before his death. Stacey D'Erasmo of Out stated that Teena did not call himself "Brandon Teena". It is the name most commonly used by the press and other media. Other names may include his legal name, as well as "Billy Brenson" and "Teena Ray."

There is no policy against the article including the subject's birth/legal name – WP:DEADNAME doesn't apply here, both because it only applies to living individuals, and also because the subject is notable under his legal/birth name – a lot of reporting on the case used his legal/birth name, indeed the article even cites six separate references which use that name in their title. So why don't we just add the legal/birth name to the article? SomethingForDeletion (talk) 22:17, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that posthumous deadnaming means a subject was notable under that name, but I do agree the name is relevant and should be included. The article talks about the name several times: "Other names may include his legal name, as well as "Billy Brenson" and "Teena Ray."; "Teena's arrest was posted in the local paper under his birth name…"; "His headstone is inscribed with his deadname and the epitaph daughter, sister, & friend." Discussing a name without giving it runs afoul of WP:NOTCENSORED; the name is relevant and should be included even if objectionable or offensive. Not giving the name also obfuscates the origins of the names "Brandon Teena" and "Teena Ray".--Trystan (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]