Talk:Chiraprapha

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Spelling

Inner789, there are a few issues with your recent page moves. (1) While I understand the desire to follow a consistent spelling system, policy on the English Wikipedia is to follow what is used in English-language reliable sources, and the vast majority use Chiraprapha, following the romanisation from Thai. If you believe there's a case to be proven otherwise, please start a WP:requested move discussion. (2) J in Pali/Sanskrit maps to ช, not จ (see International Alphabet of Sanskrit Transliteration). The name would be Ciraprabhā if directly transliterated from the Sanskrit root, or Chiraprabha, with ch instead of c, if following the hybrid system commonly used in Thailand. Jiraprabha is not correct in this regard. But in any case, this will need full discussion. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:39, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for the clarification and for pointing to WP:COMMONNAME and the transliteration standards. I appreciate your input and agree that any proposed name change should be carefully discussed and supported by reliable sources.

Just to add to the discussion, while “Chiraprapha” aligns with standard Thai Romanisation and many English language sources, my suggestion of “Jiraprabha” (or “Jiraprabhadevi”) come from an attempt to reflect the Northern Thai pronunciation, where the consonant จ (j) in local usage more closely matches the voiced [dʒ] than the aspirated ช (ch) [tɕʰ]. So, from a phonological perspective, “Jira” may better represent how the name would have been pronounced in the historical context, even though it diverges from the Sanskrit root transliteration or RTGS. In this case, other articles like Chaiyasongkhram, Chai of Lan Na, Cheputarai, and Wisutthithewi would need to change too, but that's up to the discussion.

That said, I do understand that policy leans heavily on recognisability in English-language sources, so I’m happy to explore this further through a requested move discussion if there's enough reason to consider alternative naming that respects regional linguistic nuance.

Appreciate your thoughtful response, I’m open to collaborating on whatever approach best balances accuracy and consistency. Inner789 (talk) 15:42, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 25 May 2025

It has been proposed in this section that Chiraprapha be renamed and moved somewhere else, with the name being decided below.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Links: current log

Chiraprapha → ? – Chiraprapha is the Thai-style romanization, while Jiraprabhadevi reflects the Sanskrit/Pali etymology and traditional Indic name construction which is similar to the Northern Thai pronunciation but the correct name following IAST would be Ciraprabhā, let's discuss which is better. Inner789 (talk) 16:26, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – “จิรประภา” is written in Tai Tham as “ᨻᩕᨶᩣ᩠ᨦᨧᩥᩁᨷᩕᨽᩣᨴᩮᩅᩦ”, which transliterates to “Chiraprapha” in English. However, if one wishes to reflect the Northern Thai pronunciation, it would be “Jiraprapha”, while the transliteration from the original Sanskrit root would be “Chiraprabhā”. If the outcome of this discussion is to choose one of these options, then consistency would require changing the names of nearly all Lan Na royalty as well.Tree2563 (talk) 01:43, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that transliteration and pronunciation can vary important depending on whether we prioritize Sanskrit etymology, standard Thai, or Northern Thai pronunciation. In the case, I personally lean toward using “Jiraprapha” to reflect the Northern Thai context more accurately, especially since we’re dealing with Lan Na royalty and local usage. That said, I fully agree that consistency is essential. If “Jiraprapha” is used, it would indeed require us to move many article titles that connected with Lan Na royalty. Inner789 (talk) 11:32, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think keeping the current title would be the best option, since the majority use Chiraprapha and it transliterated directly from tai Tham script. And you can add alternate spelling tho if you have evidences, for example in the other articles like Tilokaraj, where you can spelt Tilokarat and Tilokkarat too. Tree2563 (talk) 07:36, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Don't move, unless more compelling evidence can be found to prefer a different spelling. From the above section, it seems that substituting J here is only based on personal preference, which would constitute WP:original research. Even if Northern Thai pronounces จ more closely to [dʒ] than [tɕ] (not [tɕʰ], which is irrelevant here), it needs to be shown that there's such an existing system or usage that substitutes J for such sounds in Northern Thai. I did find one book source in Google Books, A History of Thailand by Rong Syamananda (1986), that uses the spelling Jiraprabha, plus a couple more with Jiraprapha, but they're incomparable to the vast majority that use Chiraprapha. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:19, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]