Talk:Common Travel Area

Schengen Area

The section on the Schengen Area refers to 'selective identity checks': the citation of the Minister's reply is dead. Search of the Irish equivalent of Hansard brings up the correct reference

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1999111600028?opendocument&highlight=Immigration

but the display has the search term highlighted. Would someone closer to the topic repair, please. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:15, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Channel Islands

BushelCandle, as far as I know, the two Bailiwicks are entirely separate jurisdictions for the purposes of the immigration law so should be referred to separately. Alderney and Sark might also be jurisdictions to some extent, but it has no effect in regards to the CTA since they both form come under Guernsey's immigration law as far as I can tell (there isn't a source claiming otherwise).

Also, please don't refer to the Republic as "Ireland" here. You even claim we should accommodate for "ignorant people" here. "Ireland" should never be unqualified considering the nature of the article. Edit: I suppose in some cases it doesn't really make a difference, when it could be referring to either.

Rob984 (talk) 00:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

"Bailiwicks of Guernsey and jersey are archaic and constitutional anachronisms of little interest in an article on the CTA - let's be sensible and talk the language of travellers!"? Is that a joke? They are both separate dependant territories of the UK. Please read up before making such ridiculous claims. I need to sleep. Rob984 (talk) 01:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

God dammit BushelCandle. Whatever. I don't have time right now. Someone else can fix your ill-informed edits. I can't be bothered. Rob984 (talk) 01:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

If you would take the care to actually edit articles rather than hit the revert button you wouldn't get into such difficulties. Sark has its own legislature of Chief Pleas which is only technically subordinate to that of Guernsey in St Peter Port [which, ultimately, is subject to the British monarch in parliament (as Duke of Normandy) - as was seen during and immediately after the Second World War. In effect, the British parliament can always override ALL of the Channel Islands’ legislatures by the government in Whitehall inviting the Queen to issue an Order in Council (which by convention she will always do). Likewise all acts by the islands’ legislatures need to be approved by an assenting order of the Queen-in-Council. By these means, Westminster and Whitehall can assert de facto, if not de jure, control over all of the Channel Islands whenever they wish or need to].

There really is no need to lengthen section titles - "Channel Islands" is a perfectly good and well known portmanteau to encompass all the twiddly bits such as Brecqhou, Burhou Herm, Jethou, Sark and Alderney as well as the better known and much larger islands of Guernsey and Jersey. Referring to the "Bailiwicks" just overly complicates travel issues - as will become evident if you examine the endless and annoying Barclay brothers litigation and feuding. Each day in summer, many yachtsmen sail from Normandy to Sark without clearing immigration or customs in White Rock, Guernsey. The "Bailiwick" authorities may huff and puff at this flagrant and persistent flouting of their "jurisdiction" but Sark has gone its own way for centuries.

As for me referring to the Republic as "Ireland" here, you're confusing me with someone else - and that's the problem with many of your edits - you simply don't take the time and trouble to examine other edits carefully enough.

If you carefully examine my edits, you will see I have often corrected your sloppy edits and disambiguated "Republic of Ireland" from (the rather confusing in the context of the CTA) "Ireland" - as in this edit of mine - examine the very first diff (highlighted in blue for those who have not changed their CSS)!

Enjoy your rest and please return refreshed and invigorated... BushelCandle (talk) 01:17, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

As always...

The point is that for the purpose of immigration and border law, they are entirely separate. And Guernsey's own territories do not have any autonomy in this aspect. I completely agree they are under UK control in reality. In international law, they are "territories to which the UK is responsible", just like other dependent territories of the UK. However it doesn't matter. In regards to immigration and borders, they both have their own individual laws and procedures.

The other issue is you are referring to islands, then polities in the same sentence which is confusing.

Evidently you do have an understanding, but when you say things like "let's be sensible and talk the language of travellers", it's difficult for me to take you seriously.

I don't take the time because you revert my edits, and make a numerous other edits in the same revision. At least do them in a different revision. Better still, wait until the issues you are reverting are settled, then go on and do whatever. I'm all for constructive editing (unlike some who see it as edit-warring), but I can't deal with so many edits at once.

Rob984 (talk) 17:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

BushelCandle, I am not satisfied with the current wording, but I don't agree with your edit for reasons I stated above. My preference would be "Bailiwick of Jersey, and the Bailiwick of Guernsey (the latter two constituting the Channel Islands)", but nonetheless I have restored the status quo since there is no consensus on what it should be changed to. Maybe you should reply by my comments above? Rob984 (talk) 14:03, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Just admit it, Rob, you revert any and every one of my edits on sight and without sufficient consideration "Just Because You Can™"

Guernsey Police don't operate on Sark (except once on an emergency and informal, ad hoc basis when they were kind enough to bring over a pair of handcuffs and a straitjcacket and take away a dangerous French loony - the jacket wasn't needed) - neither do any Jurisdiction of Guernsey immigration authorities. Jurisdiction of Guernsey Customs inflatable does sometimes whizz around Sark but they've never succeeded in more than 400 years in maintaining a physical presence there and they only land if they want a good meal or if the weather turns bad. (Last century they tried to erect a hut, but since none of the men on the island would help with construction, the workmen had to come over from Guernsey each morning. Each day the GG workmen arrived, they had to start all over again since the previous day's work had been mysteriously reversed overnight. The workmen weren't that bothered since they were being paid on a daily rate but after 2 months the Guernsey Customs authorities gave up pouring money into a bottomless pit and have never tried again to my knowledge- I'll need to 'phone-a-friend' to get the latest info...)

The major point is that the opening paragraph should summarise the practical position in a clear (not misleading) and concise fashion since that's all the majority of our readers (on mobile devices now) will ever read. By all means go into excruciating detail in later sections about "Ireland" and how Sark does not have any immigration officials whatsoever (foreign alien Yachties are supposed to marine radio Her Britannic Majesty's Commander-in-Chief at White Rock in Guernsey before landing on Brecqhou or Sark [or the Barclay brother minions or the vingtenier respectively might chase them] but very few bother) but please see the earlier discussion above at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Common_Travel_Area&oldid=704343931#Names and have a look at what User:Djegan, User:Blowdart, User:Mooretwin and I wrote on why it's clearer for our readers who are not familiar with Irish naming fights to write "Republic of Ireland" (or even Éire) rather than the ambiguous "Ireland" in the opening section. For different reasons, it's probably better to use the all inclusive Channel Islands there too.~

A minor point is that the CTA did not arise because of any formal international treaty.

It would not be wholly true to write that none of the British Island jurisdictions are not internationally represented. A Scottish Nationalist Party led Scotland is now spending money on operating an "independent foreign policy" complete with missions in Australia, USA and the EU and "Guernsey and the UK Government signed an International Identity Framework in 2008. This clarifies, amongst other things, that Guernsey has an international identity, which is different to that of the UK, and to the extent that the UK represents Guernsey internationally, it will not act internationally on behalf of Guernsey without prior consultation."

The CTA started (and continues) because it's a better practical working arrangement between the various authorities in the North East Atlantic Archipelago™ (NEAA, since I mustn't use the incendiary and more concise geographic archaism of British Isles). It's therefore pretty daft to insist on formal titles like United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or Bailiwick of Guernsey in most plsces in the srticle. That's why there's very little that any of the other islands can do when EVERYONE has to go through passport control at Dublin and Cork airports to lay a foot on the old sod. I realise that we're not concerned with reality or even, God forfend, truth here on Wikipedia but let's not descend to the level of conspiring to confuse, obfuscate and mislead our readers just because of Wikilawyering. BushelCandle (talk) 05:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

• Some time ago a group of editors went around replacing references "the Channel islands" with "Guernsey and Jersey" on the basis that the former had no legal status. As recently as last November the Guernsey article began:

"Guernsey (/ˈɡɜːrnzi/ GURN-zee), officially the Bailiwick of Guernsey..."

Someone has clearly decided to change this. I suspect they're being a bit too technical. In any event it means that the phrase "Guernsey and Jersey" becomes a bit too complicated. I think the easiest thing to do is to go back to using "the Channel islands" which is a commonly used description for the archipelago. I cannot see much reason to give a description of what islands are included in "the Channel islands" on this article, nor indeed those included in Ireland or included in the United Kingdom. For the sake of reference none of the Channel islands are in any sense internationally represented. — Blue-Haired Lawyer ^t 19:48, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

I would ignore any Guernsey-related articles for the time being because they are quite a mess (I am partly to blame—but its probably best we don't go into that). There is nothing wrong with the phrase "the Bailiwick of Jersey and the Bailiwick of Guernsey". It refers simply to two separate territories which have limited individual international representation. They both have Tax information exchange agreements with a number of states, for example. They also each have individual visa and immigration policies, which seems particularly significant to this article. "Guernsey and Jersey" is problematic because "Guernsey" can refer to only one of three jurisdictions within the Bailiwick. "Channel Islands" simply ignores the significance of them being two territories for international representation. It's a geographic term. We could also just say "British Isles", but it is likewise conveying less information. It also might be confusing when unfamiliar readers see the terms "Guernsey" or "Jersey" further down the article. Rob984 (talk) 21:00, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Guernsey and Jersey have no international representation and are no more a part of the British Isles than Chausey. I think we should avoid long form name if possible. Using the phrase "Channel Islands" has the benefit of being both concise and accurate, and avoids having to list every rock and islet. — Blue-Haired Lawyer ^t 00:10, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Guernsey and Jersey have no international representation.

Okay I guess this is correct, however they do have external relations:

The UK Government is responsible for defence and international representation of the Crown Dependencies. In certain circumstances, the Crown Dependencies may be authorised to conclude their own international agreements by a process of entrustment. For example, all of the Crown Dependencies have autonomy in domestic matters including taxation and, having made commitments to the OECD on the exchange of tax information, they have consequently negotiated tax information exchange agreements (TIEAs) with an increasing number of other states. In order to facilitate the completion of TIEAs, which by virtue of their autonomy in tax matters they considered it inappropriate for the UK Government to sign on their behalf, the UK entrusted the Crown Dependencies to conclude the Agreements within the terms of Letters of Entrustment issued to their Governments under the signature of the appropriate UK Minister.

Background briefing on the Crown Dependencies: Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, Ministry of Justice

The two Bailiwicks are distinct territories when it comes to external relations. Similarly, they are both represented individually in the British–Irish Council. It's not at all the same as listing islands. It's listing all 5 individual territories of the Common Travel Area, that each have their own immigration and visa policies which together allow for the provisions of the CTA.

It's no more concise if it coveys less information. And being concise at the expense of clarity (such as "Guernsey" vs "Bailiwick of Guernsey") is not helpful either.

Please allow me time to respond before editing the article "per talk". I also want to see what BushelCandle thinks, although I have a feeling he is going to be in closer agreement with your suggestion.

Rob984 (talk) 00:54, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Here is a document on Jersey's immigration rules, for example. If you are still not persuaded, I will settle with simply "Channel Islands", like you suggest. Rob984 (talk) 01:03, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Legal base for UK identity requirements

What is the legal base, i.e. what laws regulate that, when airlines and ferries demand identity documents domestically within the UK, to Northern Ireland, Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. As I understand, there is no general requirement to carry identity documents on the streets of the UK. Do operators have to check? Do they do it for fun or for their own safety?--BIL (talk) 09:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't think ferries ever require identity documentation for domestic services, do they? Since the Isles of Man and Channel Islands aren't part of the UK, presumably there wouldn't need to be a law permitting checks. I don't think there is a requirement for airline operators to perform checks for domestic flights (from my experience, these checks are really superficial). They can't cross check your documentation with a database or anything, so it only really helps confirm you are the person who the ticket is in the name of. I assume when you book a ticket they check you aren't on a blacklist.

Authorities are actually allowed to perform identity checks on anyone they have reason to suspect of being an illegal immigrant, anywhere in the UK.

Rob984 (talk) 18:42, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

User talk:BIL - Thought I'd mention, given your question, that the so called 'Common Travel Area' (remember, that is not an official term) is not based on any law. There is absolutely no legally binding agreement between Ireland and the UK concerning it. Frenchmalawi (talk) 14:49, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

See: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/legal_basis_for_in_country_passe – Kaihsu (talk) 18:03, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Also this article [1] alerted me to section 8 of Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1974, which can still be brought into force (see section 12 of the same Act). – Kaihsu (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I have added to the article about Sch. 7 of Terrorism Act 2000 among other things. – Kaihsu (talk) 18:54, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

In Sweden there is a law, the Protection law (Skyddslagen) which says that at "Protected objects" (which includes airports) the police or guards can ask for identity, demand evidence of it, do body search and force people to leave the area and temporarily arrest a person who refuses to leave. Probably a similar law on protection at sensitive places exists in the UK which gives the right to demand ID for domestic flights? Such as "Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary) Act 1974".--BIL (talk) 22:05, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

The 1974 Act was part of Westminster's response to the Troubles. While it was repealed in 1976, there was a succession of such laws and security checks were maintained for much of the next quarter century. The the controls were for security purposes and not immigration. — Blue-Haired Lawyer ^t 18:16, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Future of the Common Travel Area

I would like to suggest a new section dealing with the implications of Brexit for the Common Travel Area. Recent statements by David Davis suggest that the CTA will be preserved, but this appears far from certain.

See: Irish and British to get dual citizenship rights (The Times) Laughing sandbags (talk) 12:52, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

The big problem is how to avoid WP:CRYSTAL. At this stage it is so much speculation. [Can you summarise the Times article for us here please, as it is behind a pay wall]. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:28, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't have access to the paywalled article either, and the text shown in the preview is too vague to be sure what is being planned. I take your point regarding this being too speculative at this point. Perhaps we can revisit as details become clearer? Laughing sandbags (talk) 17:51, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree with John, I dont think we should include content based on unsubstantiated speculation in the media. Neither government has even hinted at there being the possibility of limits on the movement of British and Irish citizens (above the existing occasional identity checks) or introduction of passport controls between the two countries, but rather that the current arrangement regarding citizenship rights of British and Irish citizens will continue unhindered. A sentence to say that this speculation has been refuted by both governments is all you could infer.

Concerns regarding customs controls are worth noting however. I can't read the full article you cited either, but Davis was talking about customs controls when he referred to the use of technology, not controlling illegal immigration (which is very unlikely to be a problem, with or without controls).

Rob984 (talk) 15:36, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

The article is about freedom of movement for workers and settlers, not about the lack of border control at the Irish land border.--BIL (talk) 19:45, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

---

It is written in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union protocol 20 article 1 (page 392) that the UK can have its own control for travelers from other EU countries, and in article 2 that Ireland can have the same if they and UK maintain the Common Travel Area. But Article 50 of TEU says that all treaties cease to apply to a country which leaves the union. Since article 1 only is about the UK, it must cease to exist, since a treaty article which applies to no one is not valid? And if UK is erased from article 2 it would say that Ireland can have the same rights as in article 1 if it maintains the the Common Travel Area with an erased country. What does this mean?--BIL (talk) 19:45, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

According to a news article used as source in this article the EU wishes to keep the Common Travel Area and the unchecked Irish land border. That will apparantly not happen automatically but some kind of creative solution is needed.--BIL (talk) 21:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Very creative! A Norway or Switzerland deal might work but May would have to do a U-turn... --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:37, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

A comparison section of Covid-19 travel restrictions between England and Republic of Ireland and vice versa

It seems interesting to me that English government policy is prepared to accomodate any number of potential ROI visitors arriving in its airports and not require a PCR test or quarantine. By contrast how many people can enter ROI under these conditions (Including ROI citizens)? Only the exempted. Some areas of the CTA are more common than others. Alanalan001 (talk) 15:02, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

References