Talk:Go back to Poland

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: I've removed the notability tag as there seems to be sufficient secondary source coverage. However, I do have strong concerns about NPOV here — I've removed a lot of WP:SYNTH already and edited for POV but there may still be more synth and there is certainly not a balanced POV currently.

🌸⁠wasianpower⁠🌸 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

This has been discussed on my talk page.

I am still concerned that the problems have not been identified well enough for me to fix.

Most of the sources in the analysis are about anti-Semitism, and not anti-Zionism. Most of the sources are high-quality, including peer reviewed ones.

I am also not convinced that a "pro-Zionist perspective," whatever that means in this context, is overly represented. Could someone outline the "anti-Zionist perspective" on the pejorative use of "go back to Poland"? In the related article on "go back where you came from," there's no analysis of NPOV sources supporting the use of the slogan, and I suspect such sources would not be easy to find. אקעגן (talk) 08:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Moving discussion from my talk page here

WP:DRIVEBY for "Go Back to Poland"

Hello, you recently tagged "Go Back to Poland" with issues regarding WP:NEO and WP:NPOV. The article extensive academic sources and sources form reliable news outlets to tackle both of these issues. Please elaborate on this. אקעגן (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello, thank you for asking. Sorry about the drive by tagging, I mistakenly assumed this was clear. But my main concern is notability: this article is about a phrase, which are hard to judge in terms of notability but frequently do not qualify for stand-alone articles. Plenty of phrases have reliable sources about them and their history but would not qualify for an article. But, not all the RS from this article are about this phrase specifically, as the note in the beginning mentions this article contains content about a more broad type of phrase and overall seems to be addressing the idea of Zionism as colonialism. I think this content could easily be added to Criticism of Israel, Go back to where you came from, and/or Zionism as settler colonialism. I just don't see why it warrants an article, imo it would be perfectly fine as a section. From what I understand, the Notability Neologism tag is the tag used to raise concerns about the notability of articles about phrases, so even if it didn't precisely fit, I used that. My secondary concern is POV, pretty much all of the article focuses on criticism of the phrase/sentiment and, while attributing the characterization of antisemitic/racist in the lead, veers into murky territory with how much of the content is JUST about criticism. The article (at the time of tagging) could not answer reader questions such as "what is the origin of this phrase?" (not attributed origin, such as mentioning the opinion that it dates back to Europe, but history of its use specifically), "Why do people who use this phrase use it?" (we know how critics see it, but do its users agree? disagree?), "what is the background of why Israelis are characterized as 'others' or 'foreign'? (though that was kind of briefly touched on with a statistic, its inclusion came off as just being there to refute an argument which is never explicitly made.) Sorry for the delayed response; I was busy irl. Mason7512 (talk) 21:00, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Note that I've replaced with the pov tag with a notability tag, as these are two separate concerns with different solutions. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 17:00, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

I partially un-did your edit as the talk page does not support the removal of the POV tag: two editors (including me) have expressed NPOV concerns and the creator has disputed this. I don't understand how NPOV and Notability being separate concerns factors into your edit, the pov and notability tags are not mutually exclusive. Mason7512 (talk) 17:05, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

I'll respond to more of the criticisms when I have time myself. In any case, it's clear that the slogan is used, at least sometimes, in an antisemitic way, as the Bower-Shinwell case demonstrates.

As far as I can tell, there is a scholarly consensus that the modern usage is racist as well. I have been at a loss to find any good sources which argue that it doesn't have racist intent, though I am open to be proven wrong.

I also don't see sources indicating that this pejorative is targeted exclusively against Israelis. Take these sources, for instance (there are others too), which say the term was used against "Jewish students." אקעגן (talk) 22:08, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Antisemitic in wikivoice

@Plantbaseddiet, you seem determined on making the first sentence of this article ".. is an antismetic and Anti-Zionist slogan directed at Israeli Jews." despite my WP:NPOV-based objections. You have justified the use of "antisemitic" in wiki voice by citing the following reference:

1. Hernon, Ian (2020-01-15). Anti-Semitism and the Left. Amberley Publishing Limited. ISBN 978-1-3981-0224-8. This does not state that the phrase is anti-Semitic, it states that a person (Shinwell) "took that" as such.
2. Cox, Carole B.; Marlowe, Dana B. (2024-12-29). Social Work and Antisemitism: Issues and Interventions. Springer Nature. ISBN 978-3-031-72771-9. The only mention of "go back to poland" which this link automatically goes to never describes the phrase as antisemitic, it simply lists it as a phrase that interviewees have reported being told.
3. Schumer, Chuck (2025-03-18). Antisemitism in America: A Warning. Grand Central Publishing. ISBN 978-1-5387-7164-8. I cannot access this source, but it is a book by a (very pro israel) politician with no expertise in a related field.
4. "AJC Letter to President Shafik - American Jewish Committee" (PDF). This is a letter by an advocacy group.
5. Russell, James R. "The Blogs: "Go back to Poland"". blogs.timesofisrael.com. Retrieved 2025-06-03.This is a Blog post from the Times of Israel.
6. Wenick, Steve. "The Blogs: Getting Back on Track". blogs.timesofisrael.com. Retrieved 2025-06-03.This is a Blog post from the Times of Israel. Note: Blog posts such as the two above on the TOI website are specifically displayed with this warning: "Please note that the posts on The Blogs are contributed by third parties. The opinions, facts and any media content in them are presented solely by the authors, and neither The Times of Israel nor its partners assume any responsibility for them."
7. amylutz (2024-04-30). "Message on On-Campus Protests | St. Louis Holocaust Museum". St. Louis Kaplan Feldman Holocaust Museum. Retrieved 2025-06-03. This is a statement/press release from a museum.
8. "Shut up jewish israelis and go back to poland or to auschwitz". cst.org.uk. This is a blog post on a charity's website.

Disregarding the sources that do not even state that the phrase is antisemitic, we are left with 3, 4,5,6,7, and 8. Leaving out the TOI pieces marked as opinions and the book by Schumer, we are left with 4, 7, and 8. These are statements by advocacy groups and a local museum. While these are all valid sources for attributed opinions, they do not establish a consensus alone. The standard for stating such a contentious label in wikivoice is very high. These do not remotely meet that standard. They do not demonstrate a majority of consensus from non-opinion piece, non-bias, RSs. Mason7512 (talk) 21:29, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

That's the reason why i removed the opinion pieces.

• Cox, Carole B.; Marlowe, Dana B. (2024-12-29). Social Work and Antisemitism: Issues and Interventions. Springer Nature. ISBN 978-3-031-72771-9.
  • A similar poll conducted by Hillel in 2024 found 61% of respondents stating that there had been antisemitic, threatening, or derogatory language toward Jewish students during campus protests with 63% feeling less safe and 40% feeling the need to hide their identity... These students experienced bias and discrimination in their classrooms and were less safe on campus. Among the taunts to Jewish students included statements to go back to Poland, all you do is colonize, dirty Jews...

Looks like a clear reference to Antisemitism.

• "AJC Letter to President Shafik - American Jewish Committee" (PDF). The AJC is, per it's own Wikipedia page, "widely regarded as the dean of American Jewish organizations".

Why wouldn't they have a say in this?

• "Message on On-Campus Protests | St. Louis Holocaust Museum". St. Louis Kaplan Feldman Holocaust Museum. Retrieved 2025-06-03. This is a statement/press release from a museum.

Is a press release from a Holocaust Museum.

• "Shut up jewish israelis and go back to poland or to auschwitz". cst.org.uk.

This source dates back to 2010. The statement "Instances of the slogan generated criticism and accusations of antisemitism when they were heard at pro-Palestine protests in Europe and North America during the Gaza war.", which is currently in the lead, is wrong. It is being repeated every time when some type of conflict happens over there and is not exclusive to the current Gaza war.

The first source cited after this statement is from 2020.

• • Also, the slogan is directed against Israeli Jews, not all Israelis, as you have written.

Plantbaseddiet (talk) 22:04, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

Source 7 covers the topic "antisemitic abuse and harassment" on college campuses. The slogan appears at the beginning of the article. Plantbaseddiet (talk) 22:22, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with including any of these sources, as long as they are accurately portrayed and attributed as opinions. My point is not that they should not be in an article, it is that they do not establish a non-opinion piece based, non-bias consensus needed to state a WP:LABEL like antisemitic in wikvoice.

On source 2 (Cox): the text does not state that the phrase is antisemitic, it (at most) implies this. I think it would be more accurately described as conveying that those who answered the survey by saying they had experienced "antisemitic, threatening, or derogatory language" point to the phrase as an example of this - aka reflecting the view of the people surveyed. A statement would be needed to support wikivoice.

On the inclusion of "Instances of the slogan generated criticism and accusations of antisemitism when they were heard at pro-Palestine protests in Europe and North America during the Gaza war." : this sentence does not convey that the phrase started being used during the Gaza war, it is (trying) to state that the phrase was brought into the attention of the public due to its use at protests during the Gaza war. If you could add sources/content which describe its actual origins more- something which is missing from the article- that would be appreciated.

I dispute the phrase "the slogan is directed at Israeli Jews", while being *mostly* technically correct (mostly due to Jewish Palestinian citizens of Israel) I think it would be more accurately stated as being targeted at non-Palestinian Israelis, or those perceived as such. This is not as important imo as the other issues, though. Mason7512 (talk) 22:50, 3 June 2025 (UTC)

"...is an antismetic and Anti-Zionist slogan directed at Israeli Jews" How is this biased? This

• Cox, Carole B.; Marlowe, Dana B. (2024-12-29). Social Work and Antisemitism: Issues and Interventions. Springer Nature. ISBN 978-3-031-72771-9.

places the slogan under antisemitic, threatening, or derogatory language, similar to the sources that I've linked previously (not the opinion pieces).

• • ..Among the taunts to Jewish students included statements to go back to Poland..

It doesn't look like it only implies antisemitic intend.

I know what the sentence is trying to say. I'm saying that this can be misleading. I think it would be better to move it to usage.

How is this "mostly" correct? I have not found any sources indicating that the slogan is directed against any other Israeli ethnic group. Based on existing sources, the slogan has been used as a slur against jews, implying that they're a non-indigenous white group that is colonizing foreign territory. If you think I am wrong, please link to sources that mention other non-Jewish Israelis. Palestinian-Israelis are still Israelis, just like the Druze, circassisians and Negev Bedouin. Plantbaseddiet (talk) 20:16, 4 June 2025 (UTC)