Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Red Light Management

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. (non-admin closure) Schminnte^{[talk to me]} 00:58, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Red Light Management

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Fails NCORP. 1, 2 are primary sources, 3, 5, 6 are routine coverage, and 4 is an interview. Unable to find any higher quality sources. Fermiboson (talk) 04:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Music, Entertainment, and United Kingdom. Fermiboson (talk) 04:11, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Companies, California, and Virginia. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:51, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unsure but likely keep so for now sharing some sources I found; the article currently isn't great but it was also only 71 minutes old when nominated for AFD. There's a lot of routine coverage in reliable sources, way more than is normal for corp articles that are deleted in my experience. What was source 4 (more sources since added) ("Red alert") is not solely an interview; since this nom someone else already added "How Red Light Management is breaking new acts during the pandemic". www.musicweek.com. Retrieved 2023-12-07., which says there's additional feature coverage behind a paywall (which I haven't found that particular source yet). In Virginia newspapers there's some additional coverage of them working on a new venue, one example Roanoke council will hear report Monday on ideas for amphitheater. There's some real, but not huge, coverage of Red Light in a couple of books abut DMB's Dave Matthews Band : music for the people, The Dave Matthews Band : step into the light, and Dave Matthews Band FAQ (which seems to be from a somewhat real publisher). There's also some that are, as far as I can tell, only behind paywalls: RED ALL OVER. another part interview, part feature, excerpt "Red Light is one of the biggest management companies in the world, with a UK office that’s grown rapidly since opening in 2012. But how can such an expansive business stay true to its independent and artist-friendly roots? And what does its future in Europe hold?" BRIGHT LIGHTS., I think the match to How Red Light above, interviews with multiple staff members of Red Light (mentioned to show availability of sources to expand article not just for notability); Red alert: How Red Light’s expanding UK operation is taking over the charts; Light up: Red Light expands with 'powerhouse' dance duo the duo is Sigma and it also includes a mini article titled "Red Light redemption: Game on for management firm". Skynxnex (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Draftify, although I definitely think this article needs to enter the draftspace for incubation until it's really ready to be published. As noted by Skynxnex, there are many reliable sources covering the activities of Red Light Management; for the time being, I've added a Billboard article (current source 11) to go with the multiple existing citations from MusicWeek. AlexTheAwkward (talk) 18:51, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- The issue currently seems to be that the article's creator, Punk Rock London, has a potential COI and a brief history ([1], [2]) of publishing low-quality music industry articles into the mainspace instead of developing them as drafts. Tangentially related, there's an IP address that they tend to work closely with when it comes to these things. I'd assume good faith that this is just a new editor with specific interests for now, but I just wanted my concern voiced. AlexTheAwkward (talk) 18:51, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  I'm not sure if drafting is really useful. Only a bit more cleanup of the promotional tone will leave that aspect fine and if this discussion decides this subject is WP:N then mainspace is most useful for other editors improving the article. I agree that the creator probably should stop creating articles directly in the mainspace for now and only use AFC for future creations for the foreseeable future. Skynxnex (talk) 19:12, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  That's a good point about other editors being able to improve the article more easily if it's left in the mainspace. Since I think it is WP:N, I'm changing my vote. AlexTheAwkward (talk) 19:23, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I would like to defend myself against the allegations made by AlexTheAwkward as of course that i have specific interests and that’s music business and also I’m new and I’m learning and when I found out that the largest management company in the music industry didn’t have a Wikipedia page i wanted to contribute as a company as important as Red Light Management should definitely have a page so I advise you to focus on improving the page instead of making claims about me unrelated to this article, I don’t have any connections to this company but if a company as big as this one doesn’t have a Wikipedia page and there’s many other companies smaller and with less sources that have it, It will definitely teach us about the integrity and reliability of Wikipedia, Please feel free to report [User:AlexTheAwkward|AlexTheAwkward]] if keep making allegations about me instead of contributing to the article, Many thanks. Punk Rock London (talk) 19:38, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any specific allegations made by AlexTheAwkward other than a "potential" which seems reasonable based on your talk page (and Alex has worked on improving the article and !voted keep?). Punk Rock London, you should probably WP:AGF and WP:STRIKE the mention of reporting Alex and be mindful of the context of the useful feedback you've gotten on your talk page.

And for good or bad, Wikipedia isn't based on "importance" or "size" but Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources and we're not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I agree it seems likely that Red Light Management does probably meet WP:NCORP. I trust we can all work on improving the article if the consensus here is to keep. Skynxnex (talk) 03:50, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This company has enough media coverage in order to have an article also we are talking about the latest independent music management company in the world with enough sources to justify it. 06:57, 8 December 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A04:4A43:432F:DDAB:ECEF:38E3:DBD3:FCEB (talk) — 2A04:4A43:432F:DDAB:ECEF:38E3:DBD3:FCEB (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Keep The company definitely has a great impact on music industry. The article needs some improvements and expansion. killer bee  08:02, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: there not been clear justification that no source brought forward validate CORP. Conversely, it is not clear which set of sources fulfills CORP.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, बिनोद थारू (talk) 05:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nom comment In all honesty, I am not that familiar with the standard of reliability for music sources. However, to me it seems that all the sources yet brought for inclusion are largely interviews, or otherwise non-independent sources. And while I don't wish to say that there has been an attempt to promote the company by the company, I would not be surprised if this turns out to be the case, to put it that way. Of the sources currently in the article, everything is primary source or a passing mention/routine coverage except for the two musicweek.com sources. Of these, the second (i.e. 4 in the nom statement) is an interview disguised as a feature, as you will see quotes from company personalities interspersed literally every other sentence. The first appears to be of a similar nature, though the quote-to-prose ratio is slightly less egregious (I mean the entire bloody article starts out with Red Light Management's managing director... has told us.) If anyone has any previous RS discussions on musicweek, I think that would be quite useful in orienting the discussion. Fermiboson (talk) 09:27, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. While this might seem like an obvious Keep, there are valid objections to some of the sources used and several editors participating here are relatively inexperienced at evaluating articles in AFD discussion. I'd like to know where User:Skynxnex comes down and hear from some veteran AFD regulars.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:08, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep (maybe weak?) I think for me. I agree it's not a 100% clear NCORP pass with the exact coverage I've found. Music Week seems to be seen as generally reliable trade publication (search results in the RS noticeboard). Most business coverage outside of the large will have quotes/interviews from the business itself and so the question is if the resultant. So both the trade status and the "feature"ness of the Music Week pieces bring Trade publications must be used with great care. While feature stories[3] from leading trade magazines may be used where independence is clear, there is a presumption against the use of coverage in trade magazines to establish notability. from WP:NCORP into play (the ref note is A feature story is usually a longer article where the writer has researched and interviewed to tell a factual story about a person, place, event, idea, or issue. Features are not opinion-driven and are more in-depth than traditional news stories..
A new-to-me article from Music Week covering Red Light Management: <https://www.musicweek.com/management/read/red-light-x-atlantic-inside-the-management-firm-s-new-songwriting-camp-for-uk-hitmakers/087060>: Red Light Management has launched its songwriting camp series with an inaugural week-long event for Atlantic artists at RAK Studios in London., but still a bit borderline. And <https://www.musicweek.com/management/read/if-you-re-not-thinking-globally-you-re-going-to-miss-out-red-light-management-s-james-sandom-talks-strategy/069409> is mostly interviewed but shows they did several pieces on them in 2017, as well. To step out of pure policy-based reasons arguments, there is a huge amount of coverage of artists getting deals with and leaving Red Light, along with lots of coverage of employees joining and departing. Looking in that vein, there is <https://www.billboard.com/pro/mary-hilliard-harrington-red-light-management/> which really seems about as much about Red Light as Hilliard: Red Light Management is beefing up its already significant Nashville presence with the hiring of Mary Hilliard Harrington in a senior management capacity. ... The new team will be based out of the office Red Light recently moved into in the Gulch neighborhood of Nashville. Harrington brings with her two staffers from her previous management firm and two new hires. Stephanie Johnson, who handles day-to-day management for Bentley, and Kevin Grace, who works on the digital and creative content side for all of Harrington’s clients.... And <https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/tim-mcgraw-signs-red-light-83138/> in 2009 has a short but solid info about of Red Light: Based in Charlottesville, Va., Red Light Management was founded by Capshaw in 1991 at the beginning of his 18-year role as the personal manager of Dave Matthews Band. The company has grown into one of the most active artist management companies in the industry. Also for McGraw's signing, and this article in Billboard had more than I realized (looks like ~15-20 sentences about Red Light, still a mix of reporting, quotes from Capshaw, and McGraw) so I hadn't included it before: [3]/[4] "Touring over a new leaf: with a new managers and ambitious concert plans, Tim McGraw isn't resting on his laurels": When word came last April that McGraw signed with Red Light Management, many on Music Row were taken by surprise. Capshaw, a Charlottesville, Va.-based entrepreneur with a wide-ranging portfolio—including real estate and a brewery—is perhaps best-known as manager of Dave Matthews Band, founder of direct-to-fan pioneer MusicToday (now part of Live Nation) and co-founder of ATO Records. Red Light's roster is very deep and diverse, but McGraw is the first established mainstream country star to enter the fold. as a snippet.
I don't really like WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments but compared the majority of company articles we have (let alone comparable companies) this one has a much better claim to notability. (And the raw number of times a person quoted is ID'd as working there or a photo of a musician is via courtesy them makes finding more in-depth sources harder.) So, to justify my weak keep, I think the coverage of them working on the new music venue in Virginia, the Music Week features (both the multiple articles issue in 2023 as well as the full page in 2019 about signing Sigma + Red Light's attempts at getting into gaming), and coverage of them in the context of BMB's founding, and coverage of hiring/signing together meets NCORP. I think really going through all the sources, esp if someone had access to the Billboard Pro content as well, this would be a solid keep given its history. (Apologies for the length, I'm not sure why I've spent this much time on this and really need to pause but hopefully will be able to incorporate some of this into the now-cut down article if kept.) Skynxnex (talk) 20:50, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.