Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Video games

This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Video games. It is one of many deletion lists coordinated by WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.

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Further information

For further information see Wikipedia's deletion policy and WP:AfD for general information about Articles for Deletion, including a list of article deletions sorted by day of nomination.

Archived discussions (starting from August 2015) may be found at:

WikiProject Deletion sorting/Video games/archive

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Video games-related deletions

BIG SHOT

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:GNG, and if you want to go further into subject-specific areas, WP:NSONG. Checking all of the sources in use in the article at the moment, none of them provide significant coverage regarding "BIG SHOT" itself, or are WP:VALNET sources - which cannot be used to establish notability. Some of the sources, like the GamesRadar+ and India Times cite, don't mention the song at all. A WP:BEFORE search doesn't turn up anything different, either - running the song through WP:VG/SE or WP:A/S's search engine doesn't turn up any substantial results, actually. Should be redirected back to Music of Deltarune#Deltarune Chapter 2 OST. λ NegativeMP1 01:44, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Albums and songs and Video games. λ NegativeMP1 01:44, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect Per WP:OVERLAP. Even if it was notable, it's better described in context. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:55, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect as above - there's not enough sourcing here to suggest WP:SIGCOV and it could easily furnish a well-sourced paragraph in discussion of the OST. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 10:11, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per nom. There's noe vidence to indicate the song has a large enough footprint outside of the game. BottleOfChocolateMilk (talk) 19:53, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WinZO

AfDs for this article:

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Issues from previous AfDs have not been resolved in this recent recreation of the article. Namely, the sources still do not meet WP:CORPDEPTH and thus fail to establish notability. Also, the third AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Winzo was mistakenly closed as "soft delete", as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WinZO and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WinZO (2nd nomination) already previously existed. GTrang (talk) 04:34, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The current version of the article shows clear evidence of notability per WP:CORPDEPTH. Unlike the earlier drafts, it now includes substantial independent coverage from major, reliable news sources such as Reuters, Economic Times, Forbes India, and Inc42. These sources discuss not just funding or product launches, but significant developments like legal disputes with Hike, an antitrust complaint against Google being investigated by the Competition Commission of India, and real-world policy engagement around platform regulations.

The company has also shown measurable financial success. It reported over ₹1,000 crore in revenue in FY 2023–24 and a profit of over ₹300 crore, which is independently reported and verifiable. The platform is expanding internationally, including a $25 million investment to launch in Brazil, again covered by independent sources.

The article now meets notability criteria because it documents more than routine coverage, it includes sustained, in-depth reporting on conflicts, legal challenges, and its role in shaping digital policy. This is a notable player in India's online gaming and digital economy space. Previous concerns about PR-heavy content or lack of depth no longer apply. Recommend retaining the article. Sahi1up (talk) 05:12, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't use an WP:LLM rationale. Nathannah • 📮 20:14, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Video games, Companies, Websites, and Delhi. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 07:04, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Games, Companies, and India. AllyD (talk) 07:04, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The applicable guideline for this page since it is a company would be WP:ORGCRIT. None of the sources fall under that as they are all churnalism, NEWSORGINDIA, or otherwise unreliable. LKBT (talk) 09:53, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and salt Fails WP:ORGCRIT. Repeated recreations suggest a need to WP:SALT the page. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:47, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and salt all material seems promotional. we are now at afd #4, so salting is necessary Bluethricecreamman (talk) 14:47, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I see some press release type articles, but there are enough sources to establish notability.Darkm777 (talk) 18:57, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and salt. What sources? I can only see press releases, incidental mentions, and quotations. Searched for a bit in Scholar and Proquest. FalconK (talk) 01:50, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Falcon Kirtaran I don't see any press releases. Several citations are actually down, so I cannot say if they are press releases, but besides those we have a few that are not press release, such as Financial Express, EconomicTimes, and Inc24. Which do you refer to as a press release? Press release should clearly state that it is a press release and often has company info such as the ABOUT section and contact info on the bottom. Maybe you are mistaking articles that were written based on announcements, but in my opinion an article written based on company announcement as long as not copied word by word is considered a legit coverage. If that was not the case, majority of of wiki articles should be deleted. For example if Apple announced a new OS, should all the articles written about it be considered a press release, hence we should not have such articles used as a citation? I see that I may be in the minority opinion here, but if I am wrong, please point me out the proper Wiki policy regarding what is considered a press release. Darkm777 (talk) 01:37, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Press releases often do not directly state that they are a press release, but they generally present single-source un-analyzed factual information that is ultimately sourced from the company's own announcement. Often times, news outlets will republish press releases verbatim or nearly verbatim; this does not amount to notability.

There are a great, great many Wikipedia articles about companies that should be deleted, because for some reason many people view it as important that their company have a Wikipedia article. This, as decided before so many times, is one of them. It is for this that salt is the right answer.

The Financial Express article you post is a perfect example of a dependent reference published by a media outlet. It does not go to notability because it would need to be an independent source. A dependent source is one that relies primarily on the subject itself as a source for information; that article is mostly literal quotes from the subject. The second article I cannot read. The third, from Inc24, is different; it is a dependent source of WinZo and Hike together, and describes only the lawsuit; the single event does not make for significance. In general there should be many sources about many different topics. That is part of why this article is so commonly deleted. I am amending my !vote to include salt. FalconK (talk) 08:27, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete AND SALT per nom. Not much improvement from its previous versions on mentioned issues if possible, while also repeatedly recreated enough to deserve salting. MimirIsSmart (talk) 03:26, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Kris (Deltarune)

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I really don't think there's enough meat on the bone here about Kris specifically to fulfill WP:GNG or WP:NFICTION. No source here is actually about Kris specifically. While it is acceptable to use material from reviews of the source material to establish notability if it is sigcov, the "character analysis" is actually analysis of the plot beats of Deltarune, and is not sigcov of the character. The sourcing is also not particularly high quality; the most cited source is Screen Rant. Everything here would be appropriate on the Deltarune article, and none of the out of universe content is actually about the topic as a CHARACTER, so WP:NOTINHERITED applies. Should be restored to a redirect to the characters of Deltarune article as before. PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:28, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Video games. PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:28, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as creator. I disagree wholeheartedly with the assessment that the OOU content is not about the character. The Paste Magazine source analyzes Kris' similarities to the characters Frisk and Chara, and while WaPo does discuss Kris in the context of the game, the author still devotes a significant portion of the article to discussing the nature of the character. Multiple sources also discuss Kris as a noteworthy LGBT character, while their relationship with Noelle is given significant coverage in multiple sources. The IGN review in particular gives pretty significant and specific praise to Kris, talking about how their relationship with Susie one of his favorites in this genre. The point about Screen Rant being the "most used" is also not really relevant; it's most used because it's verifying plot details and characteristics. In fact, its use on two of the four spots it's used on could be replaced by the RPGFan source on LGBT characters and Paste source mentioning them being a silent character. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 08:34, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
They analyze the character as part of the plot - Because Kris is the main character and the focus of the plot. By this logic, there isn't any big video game main character who would not be notable. The Paste magazine exclusively discusses Kris as a plot element in their conflict with the soul (which is one of the plot elements of the game). The discussion as a LGBT character is in short listicles which do not contribute to notability. PARAKANYAA (talk) 08:40, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe that notability requires that significant coverage of a character be independent from the plot. If this was routine discussion, sure, but many reviews have no commentary whatsoever on Kris, so it's not just an assumed thing. I also think characterizing the Paste source as a plot summary is not a valid read, as the source also discusses elements that aren't even in the game - talking about how Kris' characterization differs from Frisk's from Undertale, for instance. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 08:43, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It does not have to be completely independent but these sources do not have significant coverage of this character outside of plot recaps. The actual analysis bit is not significant. PARAKANYAA (talk) 08:47, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with you on the substance of the analysis in the sources used, so there's nothing really to discuss I guess, haha Cukie Gherkin (talk) 08:48, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
keep I think they are notable eneough. Jdn2004 (talk) 10:10, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, I'd encourage you to modify your !vote to have it just be the one bullet (so your comment doesn't get lost). Secondly, I'd encourage you to elaborate a little more on what makes you feel like it is notable enough, as it may otherwise be seen as "keep because I like it" - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 10:48, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I'd keep this if we had articles/sources specifically about the character. Every source used is about the video game, then mentions something about the character. I don't see notability outside of the video game. This isn't Mario or Pac Man, the character is really only talked about within the confines of the game. Oaktree b (talk) 14:39, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It would help if there was a broader cultural analysis of the character, even in peer-reviewed journals or books. Otherwise, the character is only linked to the game, with no discussion of them outside of that context. Oaktree b (talk) 14:41, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is that the notability policy does not require that significant coverage of a character be derived from sources devoted to that character, it even specifies that. It may be valuable to a character articles to have articles about the character in particular, but that's a bonus, not a requirement. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:18, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This should probably be redirected to the character list even if it is decided to be non-notable. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:48, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep I find the argument persuasive that, so long as there is WP:SIGCOV, a character does not need to have sourcing that discusses some sort of broader significance or cultural cache outside the work. The inverse idea, based in WP:NCHAR, isn't actually a policy. There is sourcing that discusses the character in some depth. Some of the sourcing is probably pushing it as evidence for notability, but there are reliable sources reflecting on the character and its significance - i.e. the thing about Kris being a self-insert or blank canvas and how that reflects the plot and themes of the work. I'd feel enormously more comfortable about this if there was sourcing where Kris was the primary subject matter of the source - I'll admit that is really not the case for the vast majority of sources. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 09:13, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Cukie Gherkin and Vrxces. CJ-Moki (talk) 15:50, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as sources show that there is SIGCOV and GNG is met, and I agree with Vrxces' argument. If not kept, it should be redirected to Deltarune as an ATD. DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 16:15, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I don't have much knowledge of Deltarune but the reception and character analysis provided by the editor seems important enought to pass notablity.Tintor2 (talk) 20:26, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nomination. Not enough sources talk about Kris on their own as a character and the article lacks significant information specific to Kris. Also lacks enough SIGCOV in my eyes.

IzzySwag (talk) 01:54, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. No demonstrated independent notability that is not inherited from his game. MimirIsSmart (talk) 03:24, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
kris ain't male consarn _{(grave) (obituary)} 14:12, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify: Looking at the earliest revisions of this article, it has existed as a redirect for some time until 13 June 2025 ~~before~~ where editor Cukie Gherkin expanded it. I would assume that they have created a draft article prior, but I don't see that as the case. I say it should be draftified for reasons 1 and 3 of WP:DRAFTREASON, with the exceptions being: I don't believe the editor has WP:COI, and the article is definitely not about a work that is forthcoming. I believe that the article has potential, but it must undergo the WP:AFC process. Kyleroo (talk) 01:23, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No one here from what I can see has objected to the state of the article (I think Cukie Gherkin did a fine job with what was available). My sole objection is notability, so there's nothing to be accomplished with draftification. If we are arguing over notability then no matter how long it sits in draftspace that will not be resolved. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:30, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well indeed, I cited reason 3 of WP:DRAFTREASON for my vote: I agree that it is not notable, but it might be for now and becomes so in the future. After all, from what I've read, Deltarune is not yet complete (I'm pretty much clueless about this game). I too believe Cukie Gherkin made great use of what's available. Kyleroo (talk) 02:09, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Y'all are gonna make me blush - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 03:50, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Found this academic study that discusses Kris across four pages [1] (240–243). Other than that, the requirements for GNG are good to go. Since multiple sources discuss the character with decent coverage whether it is a main focus or not. Kazama16 (talk) 17:45, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

List of Dance Dance Revolution songs

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Pure listcruft, unlikely that any of the content is supported by reliable sources. Repeatedly BLARed and reverted, so I think AfD is warranted. Paul_012 (talk) 14:46, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Albums and songs, Video games, Popular culture, and Lists. Paul_012 (talk) 14:46, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: No SIGCOV in RS. Lots of sources, but almost all user-generated or non-reliable. No encyclopedic. value. — Itzcuauhtli11 (talk) 15:36, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Related previous AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Music of Dance Dance Revolution Jumpytoo Talk 18:02, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Dance Dance Revolution as this fails WP:NOTDATABASE. Jumpytoo Talk 18:02, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Dance-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:02, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NOTDB. I don't see what a redirect would solve, since a full list of songs is outside the scope of the main DDR article. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 22:57, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Not a believable redirect term. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:27, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per everyone's reasonings here. From a quick overview of the page, it definitely looks like a database or directory of almost every song in the game. Wikipedia is not either of those. It would probably be better if it were moved to some other wiki. Redirecting would not be ideal because there is no similar section there. 1isall (talk/contribs) 22:33, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification: What I meant is that redirecting the page to Dance Dance Revolution would be unideal because that's the page without a similar list section. 1isall (talk/contribs) 13:45, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NOTDB. Azuredivay (talk) 13:44, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per above. MimirIsSmart (talk) 03:27, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Article which has been on Wikipedia since 2007/2008 at the earliest, was under AFD quite time ago, and the reasons for that, was there was not enough sources for the list material. Due to the haphazard discussion, the consensus was for the time being to redirect the article to the parent franchise, and not to delete. After a work in progress cleanup, sources were added, and there is still some dispute for some reason, despite the fact the article all things considered is structured well and to the point, and similiar articles under Wiki content, are allowed. Sources are from the developers themselves, and from reputable video game publication sites. The main consensus and argument for deletion, is this article is 'Non Encyclopedic' when there are several other similar articles on Wiki. There are articles for Guitar Hero, Pump It Up, Rock Band, so why does DDR, which is the forefront of all music/rhythm games, not allowed to have a concise and complete list for the music? There are even (in my own objective opinion, rather confusing, puzzling and redundant) articles, which has sources from the same networks which hasn't been contested or disputed which list songs released only in 2009 Music of Dance Dance Revolution (2009 video games) (possibly a ghost article), and songs released after 2013. Music of Dance Dance Revolution (2013–present). So why are these confusing, and rather u-turn/dismissive articles okay, but this general article which lists everything in a simple form in the franchise, not okay? I don't understand. For those reasons I gave above, I feel the article should definitely remain. ☼Phrasia☼ (talk) 04:17, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Airlines Manager 2

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I've looked for reliable sources covering this game, but I didn't find any. The furthest I've got is a page at JeuxVideo, but this cannot be considered significant coverage of a game. The fact that there are allegedly over 1.3 million active accounts for this game cannot be considered for notability (would fall under WP:POPULARITY). Therefore, this game does not seem to meet our notability standards. Additionally, the article seems to be entirely translated from the French Wikipedia. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 14:55, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Video games and France. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 14:55, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or WP:TNT in userspace: This is definitely a unique case, in that the article is an WP:ORPHAN, doesn't appear to be completely formatted properly (spaces inbetween certain ref numbers within text) and a cite web error which appears to be caused by WP:LINKROT. I may be a tad harsh by saying this article either needs to be completely written/translated from the French Wikipedia article properly or failing that, deleted completely. 11WB (talk) 18:44, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also the original game, Airline Manager, doesn't appear to have its own page on either the French Wikipedia or the English Wikipedia. This leaves me questioning its notability. 11WB (talk) 18:48, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Man you're too harsh 😅, that are not reasons to delete an article it can just be fixed Mathious Ier (talk) 09:26, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
~~Your vote below is unfortunately unsigned and has no timestamp on it, meaning I'm not able to reply.~~ I understand based on what is written if the 1.3 million number is legitimate, the game is definitely popular, however the article itself does have issues in its current form.

I noticed an edit from the past 24 hours removing a source that is flagged under WP:ELNO, which backs up what the OP said regarding reliable sourcing.

My votes on AfDs are never an attempt to insult those who worked on the article, I am an advocate for improving articles over deleting them, so I apologise if I caused offence, that wasn't my intention @Mathious Ier. This article should definitely exist if the sourcing and the translation can be improved, among the other things I mentioned in my original post. 11WB (talk) 11:04, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep because of the sources which are that are topic-focused and reliable. And regarding Airlines Manager 1, it's normal that there is no article on it, because it was not successful and is no longer even available, unlike the 2nd. Mathious Ier (talk) 13:15, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Paradox acquires Airlines Manager developer Playrion Game Studio, perhaps a merge/redirect to Paradox? IgelRM (talk) 15:15, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is an idea to consider for sure. Does Paradox have its own article currently? 11WB (talk) 17:54, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, see Paradox Interactive. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 17:56, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this, @Vacant0! 11WB (talk) 17:57, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Only reliable secondary source seems to be this news announcement by fr:L'Usine digitale: [2]. Not enough to pass the criteria at WP:GNG. Also a redirection to Paradox Interactive or List of Paradox Interactive games is not appropriate since this game was released in 2013 and Paradox acquired Playrion in 2020, and I don't see any mention that Paradox ever published this game. --Mika1h (talk) 09:20, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Mika1h Primary sources say so: PR, official forum. IgelRM (talk) 19:10, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@IgelRM I don't see any mention of Airlines Manager 2, only Airlines Manager which is either referring to the first game or the series as a whole. Instead Airlines Manager could be redirected to Paradox Interactive if someone adds a mention of it to the History section. --Mika1h (talk) 19:31, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciate the precision. Based on the website, I think Airlines Manager 2 is the same game as the current Airlines Manager and "Airlines Manager 1"; like games that get updates on an ongoing basis. The number two in the game's title was added and the removed at a certain time. IgelRM (talk) 00:46, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for this, this is helpful to know. Unfortunately, I don't believe it makes a difference to the notability of the game overall. 11WB (talk) 14:56, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Fishstick (Fortnite)

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The character has gotten mostly trivial mentions in reliable sources and clearly fails WP:GNG and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 03:29, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Video games. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 03:29, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I guess as the creator of the article, I obviously think so. Characters meets WP:GNG, and does not "clearly" fail it. Fishstick has a good argument as the second-most popular original character in Fortnite, which can be seen from the amount Epic Games uses him in their promotional and collaborative material. Appearance in DC Comics + having literal Adidas shoes are pretty good examples of the latter. Worst case here would just be to re-convert it to the draft space I had it in previously (if that draft didn't exist, I'd probably advocate for a redirect to Fortnite), but a delete is a few touches too far imo. Soulbust (talk) 03:53, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The best way to refute an AfD is giving direct links to the best possible sources on the character that demonstrate WP:SIGCOV rather than saying WP:SOURCESEXIST, WP:ITSPOPULAR and the like, which doesn't help your point that much. If I have missed really good sources then I might withdraw it or at least others would !vote keep. Right now, I am still not seeing it though. Also if something isn't notable then draftifying won't help it, per WP:OVERCOME... ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 04:25, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OVERCOME isn't a guideline but if it was, it's worth noting that it make zero mentions of draft articles and then I could just easily point to WP:NDRAFT which is likewise an essay, but it actually does make explicit commentary on how to approach notability as it pertains to the draft space. I've had Fishstick in the regular draft space since October 2024, and in my own personal user draft space before that from December 2023 to October 2024. I think putting it back in as a draft should not be an issue for anybody.

Also "The best way to refute an AfD is giving direct links to the best possible sources on the character that demonstrate....." Yes, yes, trust me, I'm aware... I know... Part of me just feels like letting the article speak for itself here. But even more so, I just want to have both it and myself breathe a bit — as you nominated this for deletion less than a day after I moved it to the mainspace and aside from this article, I've been working on a lot of non-video game-related stuff lately.

I think this might be less of a clear-cut keep than those linked examples above (the Bastion one resulted in a merge, but hey, I guess WP:OVERCOME's "in a nutshell" comment that "the problem usually cannot be solved by more editing" might just be a bit flawed); regardless, I'll just let other editors chime in and if it leans toward a delete, I would at that point think I maybe moved it out of the draft space too early and would just ask the AfD closer to simply revert it back into a draft. As far as sources that mention Fishstick beyond a trivial mention (i.e. being SIGCOV), I would say: 1, 2, and 3. I might look for other sources later, but don't really want to bunker down and focus on this particular article at this moment. Soulbust (talk) 05:03, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Drafts are for notable article subjects that need more work. A non-notable subject is not suitable for a draft unless you are sure it will become notable soon. It's just an end run around deletion that will cause problems further down the line if resubmitted without cause.

Your argument that it was nominated so quickly after moving it to mainspace is another WP:OVERCOME insinuation. Specifically, that working on it more will save it from deletion and you did not have time. To be clear, an AfD is about general notability rather than an article's current state.

I'd characterize 2/3 of those sources as overtly trivial and the last one as sort-of-significant but clearly not serious (I mean, since when is a mascot character "killed off" for real?) ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 08:34, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I find the draftify dispute unnecessary anyway, just do user pages like I do. No restrictions there if you wanna work on a user subpage Cukie Gherkin (talk) 10:02, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, using user pages for this purpose does also have similar restrictions. Per the Wikipedia guideline WP:SUB, #3 of disallowed usage is using userpages as a permanent location for content meant to be part of the encyclopedia. Therefore, all articles that are userfied are meant to be there only on a temporary basis rather than permanent "until it ever becomes notable, even if it takes forever" storage - just with less of a clearly defined cutoff than regular drafts.

So odds are, if an article could be userfied, it might as well be a draft. And conversely, if it shouldn't be a draft, it likely shouldn't be a userpage. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:03, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"permanent" implies the intention is that the article will remain in a draft space, which is clearly, ideally, not Soulbust's goal. Further, if it was draftified or userfied, it would definitionally not belong on the encyclopedia. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 12:12, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully whoever closes this AfD agrees with me that the whole point of a draft is just to progressively work on them. This is what it looked like when I first even conceived of this page. At that time, about a third of the sources presently on the article weren't even published yet. Soulbust (talk) 09:11, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect Appearances in media don't count towards notability, and there is next to nothing here. Sorry Soulbust, but there's no meat on this bone. EDIT: I'm going to add to this, but a WP:BEFORE showed nothing either. There could be potential for a possible Characters of Fortnite, but the issue would be keeping it straightforward and satisfying LISTN.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:02, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Contra Kung Fu Man, I have long argued here that a character appearing in a new media absolutely counts towards notability, as demonstrating real world impact. I find Soulbust's argument compelling. Jclemens (talk) 04:56, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect I find the argument that collabs make a significant contribution to notability not compelling. It suggests that a character's notability could be bought, and if you wanted to argue that these media appearances make a significant difference, why don't we see any discussion about the significance of them? Why do we only have two sources discussing the skin's popularity? - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 05:01, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"It suggests that a character's notability could be bought" And? If something is bought, maybe that just makes it notable in a way you (or I) don't like. But that doesn't matter if it ends up being notable as a result anyway. Also yes, Fortnite does in fact, through its ridiculous amount of collaborations, find a way to extend is relevance and double-down on its notability. Fishstick is, from what I can see (and I'd have to really dig into this to be sure, which would be against my desire), second to Peely as Epic's choice of sticking their own characters into the promotional and collaboration material they produce for Fortnite.

"Why do we only have two sources discussing the skin's popularity" Which skin are you talking about? I found plenty of sourcing on the character's skins but wanted to avoid using unreliable sources or creating a ref-bomb situation. Soulbust (talk) 05:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I meant the Fish stick character skin, why is there such a limited selection of evidence that the result of these media appearances is anything significant? It feels like we're assuming that these media appearances have contributed to Fish stick being notable, but the sourcing doesn't say so. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 05:18, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The sourcing says that he has appeared in both Marvel and DC Comics issues, and that Epic and Adidas picked him as an inspiration for one of their Fortnite x Ultraboost shoe collabs. (So bascially, the significance is implied here, as an example). I'm reading WP:SIGCOV as that coverage passes a threshold of significance for us as editors here, not that the sourcing needs to explicitly call whatever it is covering "significant" from their perspective. And honestly, from the source's perspective, ~~whatever they're covering is~~ [they are] overwhelmingly more likely than not to think of their subject as significant and notable which is why they're covering/writing about it in the first place. Then it's up to us to parse it as past that aforementioned threshold or not, for Wikipedia purposes. But in any case, I'm gonna head offline now and re-visit this AfD at some later point. Soulbust (talk) 05:27, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

note struck through a portion of this that made my reply have a confusing logical/grammatical structure. Added "they are" as well, to help with that. Soulbust (talk) 09:04, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
But we have WP:ROUTINE to cover that, there's nothing to suggest that coverage of Fishstick was anything more significant than any crossover. Notability is not inherited, and as a non-player, the article does not convey to me why Fishstick isn't more notable than a million different characters deemed non-notable for a lack of significant coverage Cukie Gherkin (talk) 05:49, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete A clear GNG failure. There's quite literally no SIGCOV I can see. A character being merchandised does not confer notability, just as a character existing does not confer notability. There is no significant real world impact I can see here. Willing to redirect if there's a good target but I see none for a character this obscure and non-notable. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 01:12, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah, so obscure that when you Google the character, he pops up before the food that Epic derived his name from. So "obscure". I'm not using that Google Trends chart to argue anything in regards of WP:GNG or whatever, but to call this character "obscure" is hilariously erroneous. Soulbust (talk) 01:29, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think that replying to everyone who !votes delete or redirect, when said with this tone, runs afoul of beratement. I don't mind discussing this, but this doesn't seem like a tone this will engender meaningful discussion. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 02:09, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's easy to misread tone over text communication. Do I think it is flatly wrong to call the character obscure? Yes. Am I berating Pokelego999? No. They called this a "clear GNG failure"; and you stated that you "find the argument that collabs make a significant contribution to notability not compelling", so you saying you "don't mind discussing this" (presumably discussing this further) is confusing to me. What more is there to discuss? Pokelego999 thinks the article "clearly" fails GNG and doesn't see a good redirect target, though as mentioned above, I think a redirect to Fortnite (or as Kung Fu Man suggested, a potential Characters of Fortnite article, if it were to be made) would be apt. So with all that in mind already, I would just wanna move it back into the draft space if the AFD closer doesn't find this to be a keep. Soulbust (talk) 08:57, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Calling something "hilariously erroneous" is essentially an argument to the person; you're implying they are incompetent as an editor and thus their opinion should be ignored. Simply "erroneous" would suffice if you are just pointing out a mistake. Although I'd have to agree with Pokelego in that very few non-Fortnite players will have ever heard of this character. Googling "fish stick" solely gives me the food, so it's likely a case of small details, I never call the food a "fishstick" as that would be incorrect spelling. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:01, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Misspellings during Google searches happen all the time. The character's search history is on par with the food regardless, and my point in mentioning the Google search results in the first place was just to refute the statement that the character is "obscure".

I called it hilariously erroneous because it was a flatly incorrect statement. Note that I pointed to the word "obscure", and not "notable". Calling the character not notable is fair (more correctly, it's the appropriate word if you're asserting it isn't passing WP:GNG), but to call it obscure is incorrect. Maybe you think adding "hilariously" was much, but I wasn't implying incompetence on their part and claiming that I was is an overreaction to what I said. Also I wasn't planning to go on a long back-and-forth about it, because the character isn't obscure and I have no desire to argue that. Simple as. But it's confusing to me to act like it would be wrong to argue here when the whole AfD process is essentially putting an article on trial and arguing for or against its existence... WP:AFDFORMAT literally uses "argument" multiple times in its wording.

Also, the point that "very few non-Fortnite players will have ever heard of this character" doesn't really(?) matter. There is no policy or guideline I am aware of that makes articles have to pass some sort of (not) niche threshold to pass WP:GNG. Given the introduction on your user page ("with an emphasis on creating new, high-quality articles on obscure/quirky yet notable subjects that most people would not pick up on, such as little-known indie titles, niche games, game characters, levels and items"), I also find this point an odd knock on this article. Yes the word "notable" in that intro is not lost on me, but again, the article being about a niche/obscure topic vs. a notable topic are different conversations to me. Soulbust (talk) 19:59, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

On the matter of redirects, the Fortnite article does not mention this character at all, so a redirect there would be unhelpful. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 19:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason why the Fortnite article (or more specifically the Fortnite Battle Royale article) couldn't be expanded to include a small sub-section about its in-game elements (including its characters). Soulbust (talk) 19:43, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I mean there's not really much to add. Fishstick has nothing really saying he's a very important part of the brand. He's just been promoted a bit. At least with something like the recently AfD'd Durrr Burger you can point to it being a major mascot or part of the branding, but Fishstick seems minor at best with the sourcing provided here. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 07:00, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I point to the collaborations Epic has done to have him feature in content, not just multiple times, but with very high-profile collaborators. When they go into the comic space, they're collabing with both DC and Marvel to stick Fishstick in those comics. They don't do this with every character. When they go into shoes, they're collabing with Adidas. They made four shoes. Only Peely and Fishstick were picked for these shoes (the other two were based on non-character in-game elements). This isn't "minor" branding, in my opinion. Soulbust (talk) 04:31, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Not much significant and uninherited coverage in spite of the character's prominent appearances, while I don't see a good target for redirection. Go D. Usopp (talk) 03:49, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Notability about as weak as Peely, I would selectively merge both to a Fortnite characters section. IgelRM (talk) 19:06, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Notability can't be "about" as weak as anything else, WP:GNG is pretty much a binary. Either it passes or doesn't, and the only real variance is if an AfD gets kept (or deleted) "weakly", normally, or in a snow sense. Peely is a clear keep by the way, given that character's central role in the Epic Games vs. Apple lawsuit and even greater presence in Epic's promotional marketing of Fortnite/collaborative material. Soulbust (talk) 04:06, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or redirect per all. I am not seeing nearly enough WP:SIGCOV. I am neutral on the redirect target, and the main Fortnite article would be a good default. Shooterwalker (talk) 03:23, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nomination. Merchandise does not make a character notable and that seems to be the only argument presented thus far. IzzySwag (talk) 14:54, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, since today it will be a week since AfD was opened and this will potentially close -- if this was about raw votes, it obviously leans to delete (or perhaps redirect), but regardless I don't think it will end in keep, or even as no consensus (though would be pleasantly stunned if it did). In any case, I found more sourcing today, not the kind that I think would sway any stating to delete, though still useful for developing the article further. I do imagine the character will only continue to be present in Epic's promotional material and will continue to be written about in sourcing so I would ask the AfD closer to consider that I would be keen on this being re-draftified so I can continue working on it and so the prose as currently constructed can remain intact to either build on, restructure, or even have myself or another editor be able to do considerable overhauling of later on. This would be akin to previous experience with this sort of article being nominated (and closed as merge) and later revived. Thanks Soulbust (talk) 16:15, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
While I have no counterpoint to the concerns about notability, I do offer support that the notion of the character being "obscure" is rather misguided/incorrect, and I don't see any issue with draftifying. You also virtually wrote the entire article, so there's no real attribution issues if you just copy/paste a copy into a new user draft if you wish to keep working on it. It's not any sort of WP:NOT violation, so you're fine. Sergecross73 msg me 18:15, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Lilly Contino

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Doesn’t meet WP:GNG or WP:BIO. Coverage is tied to a two incidents, not enough for lasting notability—see WP:BLP1E. Sources are mostly local news or advocacy stuff, not deep or independent enough per WP:RS. Her gaming and social media gigs don’t get serious attention in solid outlets. Delete or redirect. Momentoftrue (talk) 22:19, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions.

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Biography-related deletion discussions.

Comment not that I'm moved one way or the other yet, but surely Coverage is tied to a couple incidents (emphasis added; nom changed 'couple' to 'two' after I posted this comment) and WP:BLP1E are contradictory, no? (see WP:BLP2E) Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 22:24, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Subject is not notable. 37.96.108.74 (talk) 09:39, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLUDGEONing. —Fortuna, imperatrix 12:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Respectfully — no. That’s exactly the point. WP:BLP1E and WP:BLP2E exist to prevent Wikipedia from becoming a permanent record for individuals only known due to a small number of controversies or viral moments. The subject of this article is not independently notable — the “coverage” amounts to reactionary media commentary about the incidents, not about her as a person in any substantive or sustained way.

We’re not talking about someone with a career, long-term recognition, or encyclopedic significance. We’re talking about fleeting media attention tied to drama. “A couple incidents” is literally the textbook definition of BLP1E, and trying to twist that into a justification for notability is a dangerous precedent.

Wikipedia is not a tabloid. It’s not a diary of internet virality. And it sure as hell isn’t here to eternally memorialize people for 15 minutes of controversial fame. If the coverage dies with the event, so should the article. Per policy, this should be deleted.

— End of story. Momentoftrue (talk) 17:17, 17 June 2025 (UTC)#[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2025 June 16. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 22:42, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Coverage in 2022, 2023 and this in 2025 [3]. Some analysis here [4], so another coverage found in 2025. Not so notable for the various "issues", but being a streamer, of which we have ample confirmation. Oaktree b (talk) 23:21, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the Toronto Sun story was field under "weird". And the study is hardly about her but using it as a speech analysis example. IgelRM (talk) 15:00, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLUDGEONing, with added WP:CIV considerations. —Fortuna, imperatrix 12:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The Toronto Sun article cited (“NO LONGER FEEL SAFE”) is another incident-focused tabloid-style piece. It doesn’t provide in-depth or sustained coverage of Contino’s career. The academic analysis cited (a speech acts paper) is not journalistic coverage and is hosted on ResearchGate, which is user-contributed and generally not considered a reliable secondary source for establishing notability.

There is no significant, independent, and reliable secondary source coverage that discusses the subject in detail beyond viral moments. Lacks the depth required to pass WP:GNG or WP:BIO. Delete. Momentoftrue (talk) 23:32, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:SIGCOV. The rule has a number as its middle name: BLP1E, not BLP2E nor BLP3E. Life is now a series of viral moments, and it might have been always this way. We have never deleted an article, as far as I can recall in the tens of thousands that I've participated in, where a person who was known for two separate events to be deleted, with the exception of political candidates being held to a higher standard, to screen out all but perennial candidates. The consensus might be faulty but hasn't changed yet. Bearian (talk) 01:17, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Bearian: I think this recent AFD on a Moroccan streamer probably had two events and was deleted. IgelRM (talk) 15:03, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLUDGEONing. —Fortuna, imperatrix 12:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

With respect, that interpretation stretches WP:SIGCOV and WP:GNG beyond their intent. This isn’t about counting events — the core issue is quality and depth of coverage, not just quantity.

The Toronto Sun piece is incident-driven, reactive, and tabloid-style — it doesn’t offer any sustained analysis of Contino as a public figure. The ResearchGate article is academic, not independent journalistic coverage, and is hosted on a user-upload platform, not a recognized mainstream publisher. Neither source meets the standard for significant, independent, and reliable secondary coverage as required by WP:GNG and WP:BIO.

While “life is now a series of viral moments,” Wikipedia’s inclusion standards haven’t changed: viral ≠ notable. Two viral events with no in-depth profile or sustained coverage don’t override WP:BLP1E — which still applies where coverage is narrowly event-focused and fails to establish enduring notability.

We’re not here to build permanent encyclopedic entries from fleeting internet controversies. If a subject’s only enduring relevance is through misgendering incidents that go viral, that’s precisely the kind of situation WP:BLP1E warns against.

Additionally, viral incidents—even when notable events—do not automatically justify an independent article. Often, these topics are better suited to be covered within broader articles or merged elsewhere, to avoid creating pages based primarily on fleeting internet attention.

Redirect or delete. Momentoftrue (talk) 01:32, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The subject fails WP:GNG and WP:BIO. After reviewing all sources, there is no significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources. Most references are either incident-only (triggering WP:BLP1E), promotional, or do not meet reliability standards. Here's a breakdown:

WeWork.com – Corporate blog; not independent, not reliable, no significant coverage.
PocketGamer.biz – Interview published while subject worked at Ryu Games; borderline source, promotional tone, fails independence.
GameDeveloper.com – Author profile, not coverage about the subject. Not independent or significant.
48 Hills – Local alternative outlet; mildly reliable but not in-depth or sustained coverage. Does not establish notability.
CBS News, The Hill, Advocate, KRON4, Daily Dot, LGBTQ Nation – All focus on one of two viral incidents (either the Cheesecake Factory confrontation or the Crown & Crumpet livestream hoax). These are WP:BLP1E events and do not provide broader notability or career-spanning coverage.

In short, there is no meaningful coverage establishing lasting notability beyond two viral moments. Subject does not meet inclusion criteria under notability guidelines. Momentoftrue (talk) 02:00, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This article was created by User:Willthacheerleader18, who has created a number of similar articles on internet personalities. A current example is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Katelyn MacDonald, which is also under AfD discussion due to concerns related to WP:BLP1E and WP:GNG. The pattern of creating biographies based on recent or viral incidents — rather than long-term, significant coverage in reliable sources — raises questions about whether these articles meet inclusion standards. This does not reflect on the subjects themselves, but highlights the need to apply Wikipedia’s notability criteria consistently. Momentoftrue (talk) 02:38, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- - Yes, I created the article (and was surprised to find I was not given notice about it's nomination for deletion.. so thank you for mentioning me here!). I have written a number of articles on TikTokers, as a member of the WikiProject TikTok. I created MacDonald's article this year, and Contino's article last year, while participating in LGBTQ+ edit-a-thons created by WikiProject Women in Red. I do not have a strong opinion either way whether or not this article is deleted. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 19:47, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  Response: Thank you for clarifying your role and intentions. However, Wikipedia’s inclusion standards must be applied impartially, regardless of how an article was created or the good-faith motivations behind edit-a-thons. Here are the critical points:
  1. 1. Intentions Don’t Override Notability Policy
  Participation in WikiProject TikTok or Women in Red and enthusiasm for representation are commendable, but they cannot bypass WP:GNG or WP:NPERSON. An article’s merit rests entirely on whether independent, reliable sources provide substantial, in-depth coverage of the subject beyond fleeting viral moments.
  1. 2. Coverage Remains Event-Driven and Shallow
  As previously noted, nearly all reliable coverage of Lilly Contino is tied to two similar viral incidents (Cheesecake Factory misgendering, Crown & Crumpet prank). These produce short news briefs or opinion-style blog posts, not long-form journalistic profiles or analytical features that treat Contino as a figure of lasting significance. This pattern fails the “substantial coverage” threshold required by WP:NPERSON and WP:SIGCOV.
  1. 3. BLP1E Applies Squarely
  WP:BLP1E exists to prevent standalone biographies based solely on a small number of events. Even if multiple events occurred, they are of the same nature—viral controversies without broader context or ongoing achievements. Creating multiple similar articles in edit-a-thons magnifies this issue rather than resolving it. The policy warns precisely against this: a subject known only for episodic viral attention does not warrant a permanent entry.
  1. 4. Independence and Reliability of Sources
  Many sources are local or advocacy-leaning, or retell the same incidents across outlets. There is no evidence of independent, investigative coverage of Contino’s career (e.g., video game writing, lasting impact as a critic). Academic papers on speech acts do not count as independent journalistic coverage establishing notability. Promotional interviews and author profiles likewise fail to establish notability under WP:RS.
  1. 5. Precedent and Consistency
  Allowing this article to remain simply because it was created via an edit-a-thon sets a dangerous precedent: any viral figure with minimal coverage could be added en masse during events, swelling Wikipedia with entries lacking true encyclopedic value. Consistency demands that we apply notability criteria uniformly, regardless of how articles originate.
  1. 6. Neutrality and Good Faith
  This response is not an attack on contributors or on efforts to improve representation. It is a strict application of policy: if the topic doesn’t meet the standards, the article should be deleted or redirected. Good faith editing still requires adherence to notability and reliable sourcing.
  Conclusion: Despite the effort and intentions behind its creation, the Lilly Contino article does not satisfy Wikipedia’s notability requirements. The sources reflect fleeting viral incidents rather than sustained, in-depth coverage of lasting impact. Therefore, the article must be deleted (or at most redirected into a broader topic). Momentoftrue (talk) 15:52, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This was entirely unnecessary to type out as I am not arguing for keeping the article. I did not claim that intentions override policy, nor did I suggest any argument against any claims you've made. I created the articles because I believed them to pass WP:GNG. If you feel that is not the case, totally fine by me. As I stated, I am not voting on this. Please save your lecture for someone else. And next time please remember that You should notify the article's creator or other significant contributors by adding a tag or other appropriate text to contributor talk pages. -- Willthacheerleader18

Understood — and to be clear, my reply wasn’t about your vote (or lack thereof), but about clarifying the notability issues tied to article creation patterns that keep recurring at AfD, especially when they lean on borderline WP:GNG interpretations for recent viral figures.

As for the notification, fair point — I’ve since followed up accordingly. But let’s not pretend context doesn’t matter here. When an article’s inclusion is based on passing GNG through incident-driven press, it’s absolutely relevant to examine how those assumptions play out across similar cases.

This isn’t personal — it’s procedural. If the article doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, then discussing the basis for its creation is part of the AfD process, whether someone casts a !vote or not. Momentoftrue (talk) 19:54, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is a nomination discussion for one article, not a discussion about patterns with AfD nominations and rationales. Furthermore, that point could/should have been made in your original nomination, not by berating the article creator who, other than acknowledging that this nomination exists, was not taking part in the nomination discussion. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If pointing out policy violations and systemic patterns that are clearly influencing article creation is “berating,” then maybe the issue isn’t the tone — it’s that the critique hit a nerve.

Let’s be real: this article wasn’t created organically based on strong SIGCOV. It was drafted in the middle of an edit-a-thon with a political advocacy goal in mind — your own words confirm this. That’s not just relevant context; it’s a red flag under WP:NOTADVOCACY and WP:POVFORK. When coverage is shallow, event-driven, and duplicated across multiple bios, and those bios are systematically produced during representation-focused drives, then yes — it's absolutely fair to raise this *within* an AfD.

This *is* about one article, but it’s also about how it came to exist — and that’s entirely valid to scrutinize. If the same sourcing pattern (brief viral news, no depth, no sustained independent attention) keeps surfacing, and if those articles are being batch-produced in advocacy-driven sprints, then AfD isn’t the wrong place to raise that. It’s *the exact right place*. Pretending otherwise is a convenient way to deflect from policy, not defend it.

No one’s questioning your good faith or motivations. But let’s stop pretending good intentions immunize content from policy scrutiny. Wikipedia has inclusion standards for a reason, and editorial accountability doesn’t get suspended because the subject is part of a social justice campaign.

You’re welcome to disengage from the discussion, but you don’t get to dictate what parts of the sourcing and editorial history are “appropriate” to analyze. This isn’t a personal attack. It’s a necessary look at a growing pattern that’s diluting the encyclopedia with biographies that do not meet WP:GNG, WP:SIGCOV, or WP:BLP1E. Momentoftrue (talk) 20:11, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you read through Wikipedia:Civility before you continuing engaging with other editors. "political advocacy goal in mind — your own words confirm this", Oh really? Which words of mine confirm that I created this article with a "political advocacy goal" in mind? What "social justice campaign" am I supposedly a part of? Are you claiming that writing about queer people, or women in general, ,must always be from a mindset of political advocacy? Is writing about men then? People of color? You've been notified various times in this discussion by other editors and now I shall remind you again, don't bludgeon the process. And don't make accusations against other editors. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:14, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s clear something up right now — no one said that writing about queer people, women, or any marginalized group is inherently political. That’s a mischaracterization, and frankly, a deflection.

What was said — and what I stand by — is that creating multiple articles during themed edit-a-thons focused on identity, without ensuring those subjects meet core notability criteria, creates an appearance (key word: appearance) of prioritizing representation over encyclopedic standards. That’s not an accusation — that’s pattern recognition based on edit history and stated affiliations. If that observation makes you uncomfortable, maybe the focus should be on ensuring the articles can withstand scrutiny, not on painting valid criticism as “uncivil.”

As for “bludgeoning,” let’s stop misusing that word. This is a content discussion, not a vibe check. If several keep !votes repeat the same flawed reasoning — such as mistaking fleeting, incident-driven media coverage for lasting notability — then yes, those points get addressed. That’s not bludgeoning. That’s defending the integrity of Wikipedia’s standards. You don’t get to cry “bludgeon” every time someone challenges your rationale with actual policy.

And if you truly believe raising concerns about how and why biographies are being added — especially when notability is marginal — counts as a personal attack, then you may need to re-read WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:DISPUTE, and WP:OWN. Momentoftrue (talk) 20:26, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You claimed I am using Wikipedia for advocacy when I have not. You claimed that I was politically motivated, which I am not. You are calling into question my integrity as an editor, which is not what is in question here in this nomination discussion. I am not deflecting, I am reminding you to behave properly in a deletion discussion, which you have completely disregarded. Need I remind you that Wikipedia is not a battleground nor is it about winning. Behave accordingly. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:30, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You keep invoking civility and decorum, yet you’re mischaracterizing legitimate scrutiny of editing patterns and policy compliance as a personal attack — that’s not how AfD works. This is not about your personal integrity, and if you perceive it that way, that’s a problem of framing — not of conduct.

Let’s be precise: I raised concerns tied to article creation patterns during themed edit-a-thons that repeatedly intersect with borderline notability. That’s not a reflection on you as a person; it’s a reflection on editorial outcomes. If pointing out that trend feels accusatory, perhaps it’s because it surfaces a discomfort with what the policies actually require — WP:GNG, WP:BLP1E, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NPERSON — and how they’re being tested here.

Wikipedia isn’t a battleground — but it’s also not a sanctuary for unexamined assumptions. Discussions like these are exactly where hard policy distinctions must be made. Not based on who created the article, but on whether its inclusion dilutes the encyclopedic value we’re all here to preserve.

So let’s not pretend civility is violated when someone demands rigor. No one accused you of “being politically motivated” — I described how repeated contributions centered on identity topics during advocacy-themed edit events can resemble a political project if not checked against policy. That’s a structural critique, not a personal one. If you believe there’s no tension between that pattern and notability, you’re free to argue that — on policy grounds, not moral outrage.

This isn’t about winning. It’s about whether we, as editors, are willing to say that good faith alone doesn’t entitle an article to survive if the subject lacks durable, independent coverage. If that’s uncomfortable, it’s not incivility. It’s the encyclopedia doing what it’s meant to do. Momentoftrue (talk) 20:36, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s clear something up right now- you are not behaving civilly. You have made your point a hundred times. Frankly, I'm tired of this spam. Good day. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:42, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If calling policy-based critique “spam” is the only way you can disengage from legitimate scrutiny, that says more about the strength of your position than mine. Repeating a point isn’t uncivil — especially when the point remains unaddressed. What is uncivil is trying to shut down a contributor by declaring exhaustion instead of responding with policy.

Let’s be clear: Wikipedia is not governed by vibes or by who gets tired first. It’s governed by content policies — WP:GNG, WP:NPERSON, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:BLP1E — and those remain at the center of this discussion. If you’re “tired” of seeing them cited, perhaps it’s because they’re inconvenient to the outcome you’re hoping for.

Calling this “spam” is rhetorical deflection. This isn’t Reddit. This is a deletion discussion. The process demands rigor — not emotional fatigue, not personal offense, and certainly not a premature exit masked as moral high ground.

You said “good day.” Wikipedia says “see it through.” Momentoftrue (talk) 20:46, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Critique is not spam. Berating every person who offers a different opinion regarding policy or validity of an article (which I did not, mind you) with paragraphs of text reiterating the same information over and over again is, in fact, spam. I never claimed that "Wikipedia is not governed by vibes or by who gets tired first", so why you feel the need to berate me about such matters is beyond me. I am very tired of engaging with you, regardless. What "outcome" am I "hoping for"? I clearly stated multiple times that I have no strong feelings about this discussion. I am fine with the article being kept or deleted. Good grief. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:48, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No — what you call “spam” is persistence. What you call “berating” is the repetition of unrefuted facts. What you call “paragraphs” is called argumentation, and it’s the backbone of AfD — not a nuisance to be hand-waved when inconvenient.

You’ve now pivoted from misrepresenting my position to mischaracterizing the very function of this process. Let’s break it down:

“Berating every person who offers a different opinion…”

Except you haven’t offered a different opinion. You explicitly said you’re not voting to keep the article. So what you’re objecting to isn’t disagreement — it’s discomfort with scrutiny. You object not because the arguments are wrong, but because they’re relentless. That’s not “spam.” That’s called consistency — and it’s what happens when policy is applied without bending to personal sentiment.

“Reiterating the same information over and over again…”

Yes. Because the same violations are recurring — and they remain unaddressed. Policy doesn’t change because someone grows weary of hearing it. If repetition makes you uncomfortable, then perhaps consider how often editors have had to cite WP:BLP1E, WP:GNG, and WP:NOTNEWS just to hold the line.

“Critique is not spam…”

Then you should know: policy-backed critique that challenges systemic patterns is the most vital form of critique Wikipedia has. It’s not noise — it’s friction. It’s how we stop this encyclopedia from becoming a reaction blog fueled by viral moments and advocacy-driven creation. This isn’t about you. It’s not about me. It’s about the integrity of the project.

You say “good day.” I say: this is AfD — not a coffee shop. If you don’t like long responses, you’re in the wrong venue. Because Wikipedia, unlike social media, doesn’t reward brevity over substance. And if the truth is long, it will be typed — again and again — until it’s finally read. Momentoftrue (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Enough. This argument has gone far past the topic of whether to keep or delete Lilly Contino and the entire debate is flooded with walls of text reiterating the same points over and over. The conversation is being bludgeoned to death at this point. Cool off and keep future conversation here civil and concise Taffer 😊💬_(she/they) 20:52, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No.

Enough is when policy has been upheld, not when discomfort reaches a boiling point.

Let’s be perfectly clear: this isn’t “bludgeoning.” This is holding the line when attempts at dilution, derailment, and passive-aggressive tone-shaming try to drown out legitimate critique with cries of exhaustion. If the conversation feels “flooded,” it’s because the policies being ignored are ocean-deep — and defending this project from erosion demands we swim in it.

You say this has gone “far past” the topic. I disagree. It is precisely on topic when the creation of an article represents not an isolated lapse, but part of a broader pattern: one that sidesteps WP:SIGCOV, WP:GNG, and WP:BLP1E through emotional appeal, surface-level coverage, and the insulation of assumed good intent. That pattern must be interrogated.

Let’s not pretend that length is the enemy here — vagueness is.

Let’s not pretend that repetition is the crime — silence in the face of failed sourcing is.

Conciseness is not a virtue when it’s used to truncate scrutiny.

Civility is not a shield when it’s deployed selectively to protect comfort over policy.

You may call it “bludgeoning” — but I call it the inevitable result of an unwillingness to engage the actual argument.

If a point has to be repeated, it’s because it keeps getting deflected, minimized, or ignored.

So no — I won’t “cool off.” I wasn’t heated. I was focused.

And I will remain focused until every last ounce of this article — and others built on similar quicksand — is measured not by emotion or exhaustion, but by notability, sourcing, and the rules that make Wikipedia what it is.

The temperature of the conversation doesn’t matter.

The strength of the argument does. Momentoftrue (talk) 20:58, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Critique isn’t spam — you’re right. But when critique is met with defensiveness masquerading as detachment, don’t expect silence in return. You entered this discussion. You participated. Now you want to cry exhaustion when confronted with a full, unblinking analysis of your contributions? That’s not “being tired.” That’s dodging.

You say you haven’t argued for the article.

You say you don’t care what happens.

You say you’re “tired.”

But here you are — again — investing more energy into tone-policing responses than addressing a single actual policy cited.

“Berating every person who offers a different opinion…”

Except you haven’t offered a policy-based “opinion” at all. You’ve offered affect — exhaustion, disengagement, performative neutrality — and expected that to insulate you from pushback. It doesn’t.

“With paragraphs of text…”

That’s called argumentation. If you wanted Twitter threads and emoji reactions, you’re on the wrong site. Wikipedia’s foundation is deliberate, sourced, structured reasoning. The fact that the arguments are long doesn’t make them spam — it makes them thorough. And maybe that’s the problem: this process doesn’t bend to who gets “tired” first.

You’ve now made this about your personal feelings of fatigue, when the core issue is one you still refuse to address: a repeated pattern of creating articles about individuals based solely on viral incidents, with no sustained, significant coverage. That’s not just a content problem — it’s a systemic notability failure.

“What outcome am I hoping for?”

Let’s stop playing coy. The pattern is clear. A string of articles created through the same methodology, relying on borderline sources, timed to advocacy-driven edit-a-thons. Whether you “feel strongly” or not doesn’t change the effect: it dilutes Wikipedia’s standards. That’s not an opinion — that’s policy enforcement.

So no — this isn’t about “good grief.” This is about good policy.

And if citing WP:BLP1E, WP:GNG, and WP:SIGCOV with full analysis is now called “berating,” then maybe the real issue is that the arguments aren’t wrong — just uncomfortable.

Wikipedia is not governed by who runs out of patience first.

And if that makes you tired, then step back.

But don’t mistake persistence for hostility — it’s simply what happens when someone refuses to let the rules get buried beneath feelings. Momentoftrue (talk) 20:55, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please stay on topic. As I stated before, I am not voting in this discussion. I merely joined to acknowledge that I saw the discussion was going on, since you neglected to follow the proper protocol by alerting me on my talk page. Since then, I've merely been responding to your accusations towards me, which are not relevant to the discussion at hand. This discussion is for reaching consensus on whether or not the subject is notable. I recuse myself from this, as I have no strong opinion on the matter. Good luck to you all, I hope consensus can be reached with civility. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:02, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Acknowledging the discussion and then claiming detachment doesn’t exempt you from scrutiny — especially when the article under review is your creation and your name has become a recurring presence across multiple similarly situated deletions. You don’t get to step back into neutrality midstream while simultaneously framing every correction of record as a personal “accusation.”

Let’s dissect that mask of recusal a little closer.

You say you’re “not voting.” Noted.

But what you are doing is trying to redirect every policy-based critique of article pattern creation into a conversation about tone, intent, or imagined incivility — as if that shields content from evaluation.

You say you’re “just responding.”

But what you’re doing is engaging in repeated attempts to minimize legitimate scrutiny, frame persistence as “accusatory,” and posture as a neutral party while actively shaping the thread’s atmosphere with passive-aggressive signaling.

Let’s remember:

WP:BEHAVIOR applies to how we create and defend content.

WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTABILITY don’t pause just because the article was created in good faith.

And WP:CONSENSUS is not just about whether editors feel tired — it’s about policy-aligned outcomes.

I don’t fault you for creating the article. I fault the consistent use of surface-level, event-driven sourcing under the veneer of representation — and the refusal to engage when that pattern is critically examined.

So yes, I will stay on topic: the article’s notability, and the broader editorial behavior enabling similar articles to repeatedly slip through cracks. Your “recusal” may work as a rhetorical posture — but policy doesn’t recuse you just because you say “good luck” and bow out with a soft close.

Facts don’t care whether you choose to participate.

The record does. Momentoftrue (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Go back and read through the above text and you will see that not once have I argued or disagreed with you over policy. What I have said is that you've already made your point multiple times. You appear to be trying to pick fights, not reach a resolution. Furthermore, I have not disagreed with you on whether or not the subject is notable. So this entire conversation is not necessary for the end goal of reaching consensus on what to do with the article. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:21, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Your attempt to deflect by clinging to the claim that you “never disagreed over policy” is precisely the kind of rhetorical sleight of hand that is the problem. It’s not just about open disagreement — it’s about how one participates, or pretends not to, while subtly shifting the terrain from content to conduct, from substance to tone, and from facts to feelings.

Let’s be clear:

You don’t need to say “I disagree with WP:GNG” to erode its standards. You do it by consistently creating borderline articles based on viral incidents, then distancing yourself when scrutiny arrives — all while trying to control the tone of the conversation and framing any criticism of editorial patterns as “picking fights.”

You say this isn’t about “reaching consensus”?

On the contrary — this is about ensuring that consensus isn’t derailed by surface-level recusal and soft deflections. Repetition isn’t the issue; pattern-recognition is. When the same names, same justifications, and same shallow sourcing return again and again, they require repetition because the problem is repeating itself.

You created the article.

You failed to notify yourself.

You entered the thread under the banner of neutrality.

You responded multiple times, escalating tension and framing detailed critiques as personal attacks — then claimed fatigue to sidestep further engagement.

That isn’t neutral.

That’s performative disengagement wrapped in bureaucratic politeness.

And it actively undermines the AfD process.

This nomination was never just about one article. It’s about patterns that dodge notability thresholds by leaning on thin sourcing, then attempt to gaslight critics into silence under the weight of exhaustion or “civility” when those patterns are called out.

So no — this conversation is necessary.

Because Wikipedia’s editorial integrity depends on calling this out in public, in detail, with diffs, policy, and a record that can’t be handwaved away with “good grief” or a polite exit.

If you don’t want to engage — then don’t.

But don’t act like calling out an entrenched editorial behavior is a sideshow.

This is the main event. Momentoftrue (talk) 21:36, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

But that's just it. This nomination is just about one article. That's how AfD works. If you are concerned about my editing, this is not the place to call it in to question. This is the space to determine whether or not the article on Lilly Contino should be deleted. Feel free to file a report on me at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard or one of the other noticeboards, if that is what you take issue with. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s be perfectly clear:

What’s truly disruptive here is not policy critique — it’s the coordinated deflection from those who repeatedly present borderline articles, then weaponize civility guidelines the moment those patterns are scrutinized.

You say this isn’t the place to “call into question” someone’s editing? That’s flatly incorrect. AfD is precisely the place to examine how and why articles are being created — especially when multiple, nearly identical biographies are submitted under similar conditions and sourcing failures. See WP:DELREASON and WP:NOTABILITY — context and creation matter. If the same editor continues producing marginal articles rooted in fleeting viral incidents, it’s not “casting aspersions” to point that out. It’s enforcing standards.

The irony here is suffocating:

You create an article.

You don’t notify yourself of its nomination — violating AfD protocol.

You enter the discussion not to !vote, but to continuously post, reactively, to every mention — all while insisting you “have no strong opinion.”

Then, when your editing pattern is critiqued in the exact venue where it is relevant, you cry incivility and redirect the conversation to noticeboards?

That isn’t disengagement — that’s manipulation.

And Taffer:

The idea that repetition weakens an argument is laughable in the face of systemic problems. You counted twenty iterations? That should raise alarms — not about me, but about how often these same issues arise, across articles, across editors, across AfD after AfD.

The issue here isn’t tone. It’s accountability.

Wikipedia’s inclusion criteria are not optional. And when patterns emerge that exploit gray areas of notability and then hide behind etiquette, it becomes necessary to repeat, to reinforce, to resist the erasure of hard policy under a flood of soft pushback.

This is not a battleground.

It’s a defense line — against the quiet erosion of standards dressed up as polite disengagement.

If that offends anyone more than seeing notability diluted over and over again, they’re not defending Wikipedia. They’re defending their comfort. Momentoftrue (talk) 21:54, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is dangerously close to casting aspersions and is entirely uncivil behavior. I'm saying this as respectfully as I can as the third person you're now bludgeoning out of this discussion(I'm removing this page from my watchlist after I reply): drop the stick, you've reiterated some of your points more than twenty times(I counted) in this discussion, particularly against people who were not arguing against them. You don't need to(and in fact explicitly shouldn't) argue with every single reply made that you perceive as disagreement. It's not only disruptive but weakens how your arguments are received. Taffer 😊💬_(she/they) 21:47, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s be perfectly clear:

What’s truly disruptive here is not policy critique — it’s the coordinated deflection from those who repeatedly present borderline articles, then weaponize civility guidelines the moment those patterns are scrutinized.

You say this isn’t the place to “call into question” someone’s editing? That’s flatly incorrect. AfD is precisely the place to examine how and why articles are being created — especially when multiple, nearly identical biographies are submitted under similar conditions and sourcing failures. See WP:DELREASON and WP:NOTABILITY — context and creation matter. If the same editor continues producing marginal articles rooted in fleeting viral incidents, it’s not “casting aspersions” to point that out. It’s enforcing standards.

The irony here is suffocating:

You create an article.

You don’t notify yourself of its nomination — violating AfD protocol.

You enter the discussion not to !vote, but to continuously post, reactively, to every mention — all while insisting you “have no strong opinion.”

Then, when your editing pattern is critiqued in the exact venue where it is relevant, you cry incivility and redirect the conversation to noticeboards?

That isn’t disengagement — that’s manipulation.

And Taffer:

The idea that repetition weakens an argument is laughable in the face of systemic problems. You counted twenty iterations? That should raise alarms — not about me, but about how often these same issues arise, across articles, across editors, across AfD after AfD.

The issue here isn’t tone. It’s accountability.

Wikipedia’s inclusion criteria are not optional. And when patterns emerge that exploit gray areas of notability and then hide behind etiquette, it becomes necessary to repeat, to reinforce, to resist the erasure of hard policy under a flood of soft pushback.

This is not a battleground.

It’s a defense line — against the quiet erosion of standards dressed up as polite disengagement.

If that offends anyone more than seeing notability diluted over and over again, they’re not defending Wikipedia. They’re defending their comfort. Momentoftrue (talk) 21:53, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: A reminder that follower counts and social media popularity do not, on their own, establish notability per WP:NUMBERG. Wikipedia requires significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. In this case, while the subject has over 400k followers on TikTok, the sources largely revolve around two incidents and do not reflect the kind of in-depth, career-spanning coverage needed to pass WP:GNG or WP:BIO. Momentoftrue (talk) 02:53, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I want to be clear that I fully support and respect all genders and sexual orientations—trans, gay, lesbian, straight, and everyone else. My position here isn’t biased against anyone’s identity. Personally, one of my favorite trans media stars is Dylan Mulvaney, who I think has made a strong impact. However, after reviewing the coverage, I believe that Lilly Contino, sadly, does not meet Wikipedia’s notability standards to have a dedicated article at this time. Momentoftrue (talk) 03:12, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Journalism, Video games, Sexuality and gender, California, and Minnesota. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 03:33, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I am not seeing this pass WP:NPERSON. If events are notable, an article should be made about those specific events rather than necessarily the people involved in them. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:00, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Whilst a lot of the articles about her are quite opinionated, together they demonstrate broad coverage and meet WP:NPERSON. Similarly, this coverage is over a number of events, meaning the article meets WP:BLP1E. With respect, it appears that Nom is incorrectly applying BLE1E to individual sources instead of to the subject as a whole. // PYRiTEmonark // talk // 14:19, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLUDGEONing, with added AI-generated walls of text. —Fortuna, imperatrix 12:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

- Rebuttal: This argument completely misrepresents what constitutes notability under WP:NPERSON and misapplies WP:BLP1E in a way that ignores the spirit of both policies.
Let’s rip this open properly:

1. “Broad Coverage” Is a Mirage — It's the Same Story, Copy-Pasted

Multiple articles parroting the same two viral moments (Crown & Crumpet, Cheesecake Factory) isn’t breadth — it’s repetition. Nearly all coverage is just variations of "Internet reacts to viral TikTok." It’s event-based noise, not significant secondary analysis. This is textbook WP:ROUTINE and WP:NOTNEWS territory.

2. NPERSON? Absolutely Not.

WP:NPERSON requires significant (i.e., in-depth), independent, and sustained coverage. There are no long-form profiles. No editorial insights. No coverage of her game dev career. No notable accolades. Just TikTok recaps and callouts. This fails the bar miserably. You could swap in any influencer’s name and the articles wouldn’t change.

3. BLP1E Was Written For Situations Like This

Contino’s notability is entirely derived from two misgendering incidents — and the "multiple events" defense fails because those events are nearly identical in nature and covered the same way. This is precisely what WP:BLP1E warns about: temporary notoriety from viral outrage cycles, not lasting, encyclopedic significance. She is known because of the reaction, not for enduring achievements.

4. This Is a Manufactured Biographical Article

Let’s not pretend this is organic coverage. It was created during an edit-a-thon tied to a political initiative (as admitted by the article’s creator). That’s not a neutral reason for inclusion — that’s a Wikipedia:NOTADVOCACY violation waiting to happen. The project goals are noble, but the sources must still pass GNG and SIGCOV, and this one simply doesn’t.

5. This Article's Existence Undermines Wikipedia’s Standards

If we keep this, we send the message that anyone who goes viral twice—regardless of depth, career, or recognition—gets a Wikipedia page. That’s a dangerous precedent, and it floods the project with bios that hinge entirely on fleeting controversy, violating WP:NOT and weakening trust in the platform.
Bottom Line: DELETE.
- Not significant coverage.

- Not broad.

- Not lasting.

- Entirely event-driven.

- Fails WP:GNG, WP:NPERSON, and absolutely meets WP:BLP1E criteria.

Wikipedia is not a mirror for TikTok trends. This subject can be mentioned in coverage of the incidents themselves, but does not merit a standalone article. Delete.

– Momentoftrue (talk) 15:45, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have strong enough opinions about keeping or deleting, but I would like to gently draw your attention to WP:BLUDGEON. You've made your point, repeatedly dissecting every keep vote isn't helpful. Taffer 😊💬_(she/they) 16:16, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully noted. However, engaging with arguments presented in a deletion discussion is entirely within the bounds of WP:AFDPURPOSE. This is not “bludgeoning,” it’s addressing flawed logic and misapplications of policy. If a “keep” !vote contains reasoning based on a misinterpretation of WP:BLP1E or WP:NPERSON, it should be scrutinized. That’s how consensus is built — through critical analysis, not silence Momentoftrue (talk) 16:31, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You should be capable of responding to any new points raised without the WP:WALLOFTEXT mainly restating points that you have already made, several times over, because what you posted above does also seem WP:BLUDGEONy to me too. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 17:23, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The responses are pretty clearly AI generated, which is frowned on. @Momentoftrue, AI tends to be excessively verbose, consider summarizing its points in your own words instead. Taffer 😊💬_(she/they) 17:28, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, that’s a reach. Just because something is thorough, well-formatted, and cites policy accurately doesn’t mean it’s AI-generated — it means it’s serious about deletion. The issue shouldn’t be how points are delivered, but whether they’re grounded in policy — and mine are.

If clarity and consistency are getting mistaken for AI, maybe the bar for deletion arguments needs to be raised — not dismissed.

Let’s focus on the content, not the style. Momentoftrue (talk) 17:34, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I hear you — but reiterating policy isn’t WP:BLUDGEON when editors continue misapplying it. This isn’t about “restating” for the sake of it — it’s clarifying misuse of notability guidelines that risk setting a precedent for hosting articles built on temporary outrage and media flares, not long-term significance.

If multiple keep !votes continue to ignore WP:BLP1E by conflating coverage of incidents with coverage of the person, then yes — it deserves correction, every time.

You say don’t post walls? Cool. Then let’s be real clear:

She’s known because of the incidents, not in spite of them. That’s BLP1E. This article doesn’t belong.

Clean. Sharp. Policy-backed. No apologies. Momentoftrue (talk) 17:33, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The point is you've made your case and we all pretty much understand your interpretation of policy. Something important to remember is that people can reasonably disagree with you on questions of policy, and that doesn't necessarily mean they're misapplying it. Nor, if your right, does it mean its helpful to your case to to keep stating your point of view in response to each keep comment. If their arguments are so obviously fallacious and yours so obviously enlightened, the closer will be able to figure that out.

And because I can't help my self: incidents, not in spite of them. That’s BLP1E No, incidents (emphasis added) would suggest more than one event i.e. not covered by WP:BLP1E. There's no such thing as WP:BLP2E. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 17:56, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciate the reminder, but let’s not act like a firm stance is the same thing as being disruptive. I’m not here to hand-hold every Keep vote when many are restating the same vague rationale or ignoring core notability policy. This isn’t about ego — it’s about consistency in applying WP:GNG and WP:BLP1E, which are being stretched to fit a narrative here.

And to your “can’t help myself” moment: no one said WP:BLP2E exists — that’s your strawman. What was actually pointed out is that coverage across multiple incidents doesn’t automatically sidestep BLP1E when those incidents are minor, viral bursts lacking lasting, independent significance. That’s a textbook misunderstanding of what WP:BLP1E protects against — superficial fame being confused with encyclopedic relevance.

I’m not here to bludgeon — I’m here to make sure deletion-worthy articles don’t slip through because folks got too comfortable confusing press coverage with policy-based notability. Momentoftrue (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
coverage across multiple incidents doesn’t automatically sidestep BLP1E If they are covered for more than one event, as far as I can see based on what is written at WP:BLP1E, then they definitionally do pass WP:BLP1E. Of course, passing BLP1E says absolutely nothing about passing GNG/NOPAGE but it's actually not BLP1E primary job to to protect against [...] superficial fame being confused with encyclopedic relevance. Pehaps you where thinking of WP:NOTNEWS/WP:NOTGOSSIP. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 18:33, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You’re treating multiple incidents as an automatic override of WP:BLP1E, but that’s not what BLP1E says — nor how it’s historically applied. BLP1E is fundamentally about protecting living subjects from being reduced to a series of isolated or tabloid-level events that do not, individually or collectively, constitute lasting encyclopedic notability. The bar isn’t just more than one event — it’s about the depth, independence, and enduring relevance of those events.

We don’t carve out encyclopedia pages just because a subject had two viral moments. That’s not notability — that’s noise. And that’s exactly what BLP1E safeguards against.

Even if you technically satisfy the “more than one incident” phrasing, if those incidents are interconnected, fleeting, or sensationalist by nature, then you’re still within the spirit of what BLP1E aims to exclude. That’s why this clause exists: to prevent Wikipedia from becoming a digital scrapbook of controversies.

And yes, while WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTGOSSIP support the same principle, BLP1E goes further — it’s not just about editorial discretion; it’s a living person safeguard. We’re talking about reputation protection, not just notability enforcement.

So to clarify:

BLP1E does not get invalidated simply because two events happened — not when those events are closely tied in theme, source, or moment (i.e., coverage collapsing into a single notability arc).

The presence of multiple news stories doesn’t automatically form a valid GNG case if they stem from echo chambers of non-independent, event-centric reporting.

Applying BLP1E is about the spirit of policy, not just a literal count of media incidents.

Wikipedia is not a viral hall of fame, and not every name trending for a month deserves to be canonized in an encyclopedia. Momentoftrue (talk) 18:41, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I see, so when you previously said you were reiterating policy with arguments that were Clean[,] Sharp [and] Policy-backed, while accusing others of continue misapplying it and parroting vague rationale, you weren't referring to the policies as they are actually written but instead the spirit of policy and what you recon it's aims should be. See I was going off what these PaGs actually said, my mistake. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 19:02, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for raising this point. Wikipedia policy interpretation involves reading the literal text of guidelines and also considering the broader intent and context in which they are applied. Policy pages often give concise criteria, but explanations, examples, and precedents clarify how those criteria work in practice.

For instance, BLP1E warns against standalone biographies based on a few events without deeper coverage. It mentions more than one event, but it must be understood in context: the events need to reflect lasting, independent significance. Treating any count above one as sufficient ignores explanatory guidance and how BLP1E has been applied in deletion discussions.

Literal reading of policy requires awareness of examples and precedents. In practice, multiple brief news items covering essentially the same controversy do not amount to the substantial coverage envisioned by GNG or BLP1E. Saying that coverage across multiple incidents does not automatically sidestep BLP1E reflects established application, not a subjective override.

The key issue is distinguishing between a literal count of events and substantive coverage. If multiple incidents are interconnected, fleeting, or sensationalist, they do not collectively support lasting notability. This interpretation aligns with the policy’s intent to prevent Wikipedia from becoming a scrapbook of controversies rather than an encyclopedia of enduring significance.

Referring to the purpose of policy helps avoid misapplication. Every guideline aims to ensure Wikipedia covers subjects of lasting interest, not ephemeral trends. Understanding that purpose is standard practice: policy interpretation relies on literal text, linked guidance, community consensus, and documented rationale.

AfD discussions exist precisely for detailed scrutiny. Addressing misunderstandings of policy is appropriate to clarify for new editors and the closer. It is not WP:BLUDGEON if each reply corrects a misreading or adds nuance. This ensures that GNG, NPERSON, and BLP1E are applied correctly as measures of substantive, independent, and lasting coverage, not merely a count of mentions. Treating any “more than one” mention as sufficient would undermine policy intent. Therefore, it is necessary to address each misinterpretation to maintain proper application of guidelines.

Momentoftrue (talk) 19:11, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
One would think it's quite difficult to have a misreading of policy when apparently we don't even need to read what the actual words of a policy says, but instead can imagine would they should be. I happen to think would think it would help your case to refer to the PaGs that do actually say the things your trying to say (such as WP:GNG, WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, or in fact the rest of WP:BLP, which is about defending people from gossip).

I don't intend to respond any further to this thread, as its clear we have fundamentally different understandings of what a policy based discussion is. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 19:28, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
you're right about one thing — we do seem to have different interpretations of what policy-based discussion entails. But for clarity: I’m not advocating we ignore policy wording. I’m saying we apply it *in context*, as intended, not just literally.

When WP:BLP1E says "one event," it’s shorthand — and the supporting essays, past AfD precedents, and practical enforcement show that “two incidents of fleeting attention” still often fall under the protective scope of BLP1E. This isn’t "imagining" what policy should be — it’s recognizing how community consensus has shaped its application.

Yes, WP:GNG, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTGOSSIP, and the rest of WP:BLP all matter — and I’ve cited or echoed each of them throughout. But WP:POLICY is not a vending machine. You can’t drop in a citation and expect an automatic Keep. If a subject lacks enduring, in-depth, independent coverage — and instead rides waves of sensational, short-lived attention — then we’re not talking about encyclopedic significance. We’re talking about transient noise.

Policy without practical interpretation is useless. Wikipedia is built on words *and* consensus. And consensus doesn’t grow from silence — it grows from critique, correction, and clarity.

If we disagree on that, then yes — we’re speaking different languages. But one of us is still speaking Wikipedia’s. Momentoftrue (talk) 19:37, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please consider stating the points of your argument in the nomination itself, instead of waiting for people to reply and dropping your argument directly below theirs. At this point, you have made more than half of the comments on this page, making it hard to read and resulting in points being restated again and again. There's nothing wrong with editing the nomination to update your argument, and it's much more helpful for people joining the discussion later. See also WP:TLDR. Thank you. // PYRiTEmonark // talk // 18:36, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the concern, but let’s not conflate participation with disruption. This is a contentious AfD — not a vote count — and each “Keep” rationale that misrepresents policy warrants a precise, context-aware reply. That’s not WP:BLUDGEON — that’s due diligence. I’m engaging substantively and specifically, not restating or padding. If multiple editors make parallel policy misreadings, it’s entirely valid to address each one in turn.

As for the nomination: AfD is not static. WP:AFDPURPOSE encourages iterative debate, and policy consensus often sharpens in response to how arguments evolve — not in a vacuum. I’ve expanded on the rationale through replies, just like others have clarified theirs across multiple comments. This isn’t TL;DR — it’s transparency.

And let’s be honest: if an article’s survival hinges on misapplied BLP1E logic, misunderstood GNG claims, or event-linked echo-chamber sourcing, it deserves thorough scrutiny — not a polished summary followed by silence.

If clarity is the goal, I’d be happy to consolidate and annotate key points. But I won’t step back from challenging flawed keep rationales when policy is on the line — especially with a living subject. Momentoftrue (talk) 18:55, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I happen to agree with @PYRiTEmonark.. this has become very difficult to read and instead of making a clear point you have berated other people in the discussion by making the same points over and over again. I am not sure why you consider this discussion contentious.. I don't see any more "contention" than on any other deletion discussion I've been a part of. Please be sure to read through Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Behavior when nominating an article for deletion, which states: The purpose of the discussion is to achieve consensus upon a course of action. Individuals will express strong opinions and may even "vote". To the extent that voting occurs, the votes are merely a means to gauge the degree of consensus reached so far. Wikipedia is not a democracy and majority voting is not the determining factor in whether a nomination succeeds or not. Please do not "spam" the discussion with the same comment multiple times. Make your case clearly and let other users decide for themselves. Thanks. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 19:59, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s dispense with the performance of concern and get to the truth beneath the etiquette: this is not about tone, or density, or how many times I’ve replied. This is about editorial discomfort with rigorous, policy-grounded scrutiny — the kind that threatens weak “Keep” rationales built on fleeting virality, notability inflation, and uncritical repetition of GNG fallacies.

If policy were being cited accurately, you wouldn’t be reading so many replies from me — but you are, because time and again, I’ve seen arguments that misstate, flatten, or ignore WP:BLP1E, WP:GNG, WP:SIGCOV, and WP:NPERSON. That’s not a coincidence. That’s a pattern, and if anyone’s tired of seeing it called out, they should be far more tired of seeing it happen.

You quote Wikipedia:Guide to deletion and accuse me of violating its norms. Read deeper:

“Make your case clearly and let other users decide for themselves.”

That’s exactly what I’ve done — with policy diffs, with case law precedent, with sourcing analysis. I haven’t copy-pasted one comment twenty times. I’ve offered individualized critiques to individual misreadings — and that distinction is everything. Responding to multiple editors is not equivalent to repeating myself.

You say this AfD isn’t “contentious.” No offense, but I’m not interested in how it feels — I’m looking at what’s on the page:

Editors accusing others of political motives.

Subjectivity presented as sourcing analysis.

Claims of neutrality while defending article creation patterns with no regard for long-term significance.

Dog-piling the one person applying BLP1E with surgical clarity.

That’s contentious. That’s politicized. That’s why I won’t default to quietude just to make the page easier to skim.

And let’s talk about “spamming.”

A 500-word wall of vague sentiment is spam.

A thread of 20 replies that each dissect a unique policy error? That’s editorial service.

If clarity is desired, then let’s reframe the situation properly:

I will always respect good-faith disagreement grounded in policy.

I will never stand down when notability criteria are repeatedly diluted through event-driven sourcing and apathy toward living subjects.

And I will not be silenced through weaponized civility, especially by those who invoke “guidelines” only when their position gets challenged too effectively.

You want a cleaner discussion? Then apply policy accurately the first time.

Because until that happens, I will continue speaking — clearly, repeatedly, and unapologetically: Momentoftrue (talk) 22:00, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Saying "I'm right and your all wrong" over and over, louder and louder is unlikely to win you anybody to your point of view and is a waste of digital ink frankly. While its very nice that you feel so metaphysically WP:CORRECT in your idea, you are actively failing to communicate them to others, which is the point of this discussion. Multiple people have told you your bludgeoning, and failing to Assume good faith and yet your just failing to WP:LISTEN to anybody (even to the tamest criticism). At some point you have to WP:DROPTHESTICK Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 22:13, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s dead this real quick — if holding people accountable to policy feels like “saying I’m right and you’re all wrong,” then maybe that’s because the policy is right… and y’all are just mad it doesn’t fold to groupthink.

This isn’t me shouting louder. This is me refusing to sugarcoat how badly notability is being bent just to keep an article that wouldn’t survive two seconds outside of an echo chamber.

You call it “bludgeoning”? Nah. I call it precision fire. Every single response I dropped was targeted, relevant, and anchored in policy. I’m not here to coddle misinterpretations or vibe with “consensus” built on shaky logic and feelings. This ain’t a support group — it’s Wikipedia, and what’s at stake is a BLP about a living person, not your comfort.

“You’re not listening.”

Bruh, I read every line and countered with receipts. Just because you don’t like the reply doesn’t mean I didn’t listen — it means I didn’t bend.

“You’re just repeating yourself.”

You’re right. Because some folks keep repeating bad takes, so I’ll keep countering them with the same unshakable facts. We don’t let errors slide just because someone’s tired. You don’t get to shout “drop the stick” when I’m still seeing people picking it up and swinging it wrong.

You want “civil”? Be civil with policy. Respect the process enough to argue correctly, not softly.

You want me to stop? Then stop misapplying notability guidelines like they’re fanfiction rules. Until then, I’ll keep pulling up. I don’t play nice with policies that protect real people — I play correct.

This ain’t WP:BITE. It’s WP:BITE BACK — when bad arguments try to outlive good policy.

Now save your digital ink. I brought receipts, not feelings. Momentoftrue (talk) 22:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Your not holding people accountable because this isn't a court of law nor is this the place to raise conduct concerns, that's WP:AN/WP:ANI/etc. And perhaps clicking on WP:LISTEN would show you that I wasn't saying you weren't reading. I don't doubt your reading all of this but you aren't listening to what people are telling you. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 22:38, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You keep tossing out “WP:LISTEN” like it’s a shield, but here’s the thing: WP:LISTEN doesn’t mean submit. It doesn’t mean I have to nod along when consensus gets cozy with contradiction. It means I engage. And I have — line by line, source by source, argument by argument. I didn’t dodge a single point. I ripped them open, cited policy, and showed my work.

And now you’re shifting goalposts — saying this isn’t a courtroom? Right, it’s not. But don’t twist that to mean there’s no accountability. Wikipedia doesn’t run on vibes and “we’re tired now.” It runs on verifiability, due process, and community standards. If those are being misapplied, calling it out is participation — not misconduct.

“You’re not holding people accountable.”

I’m not dragging people. I’m holding up policy like a mirror — if the reflection’s ugly, that’s not on me.

“This isn’t the place to raise conduct concerns.”

You’re damn right — and I didn’t. What I did was respond when folks tried to paint good-faith critique as “bludgeoning,” which is code for: “stop being loud with facts, you’re making us uncomfortable.” That ain’t a conduct concern — that’s a silencing tactic, and I won’t bite my tongue for anyone’s digital comfort.

If policy is being misread, warped, or ignored, I’m pulling up. And no — I won’t do it gently, because the subject at hand is a real, living person whose notability is being papered over with puff, not substance. This ain’t just about an article — it’s about the bar we set for inclusion, and whether we let it slide when it feels socially convenient.

You don’t gotta like my tone. You don’t have to agree with the heat. But you will respect the foundation it stands on: policy, precedent, and protecting the project.

So unless you’re ready to actually dispute the arguments with clarity and citations, this whole “you’re too intense” angle is just noise — and we don’t do noise. We do facts. Momentoftrue (talk) 22:45, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you've already told us how you're the only one that understands policy, can understand logic and the rest of us are just misunderstanding/misreading/misinterpreting PaGs that may or may not actually exist on the policy pages that you link to (or in fact anywhere, they may just be there in spirit). May I recommend some WP:BRIE to pair. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 23:00, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Let’s cut the sarcasm and dress this down to the bones — because I see the play:

When you can’t counter the policy, you go after the person.

“You think you’re the only one who gets it.”

Nah. What I am doing is standing firm in the face of a dozen shaky takes trying to pass as consensus.

But you’re right about one thing:

I do know the difference between policy applied and policy waved around like a glowstick at a rave.

So miss me with the passive jabs — “PaGs that may or may not actually exist”? C’mon. That’s not wit, that’s deflection. You’re not disproving anything — you’re hoping the crowd laughs loud enough to drown out the receipts I brought to the table.

You wanna recommend WP:BRIE?

Cool. Here’s my edit:

BRIE: Be concise — unless you’re trying to untangle a mess of half-baked arguments dressed up as policy, in which case clarity > brevity every time.

Don’t like the length? Don’t misapply policy.

Don’t like the tone? Don’t mock someone doing the work.

Don’t like the heat? Then step out the kitchen, because I didn’t come here to vibe-check feelings — I came to make sure a BLP doesn’t get waved through on smiles and misunderstanding.

“They may just be there in spirit.”

Nah. They’re there in black and white.

WP:GNG. WP:BLP1E. WP:SIGCOV. WP:RS. WP:NEXIST.

Pick one. Or better yet — read one, without the spin.

This isn’t a TED Talk. It’s a deletion discussion.

And if that means making sure each “Keep” vote gets actual scrutiny instead of a group nod? Then yeah — I’ll be “that editor” every time.

So keep tossing jokes if that helps you cope.

But policy doesn’t laugh — and I don’t blink. Momentoftrue (talk) 23:14, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep (might as well get back on topic here), The topic is covered in multiple reliable sources that cover the subject of the article (i.e. WP:NBIO). These include WP:THEHILL, The Advocate, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 391#LGBTQ Nation, WP:CBS, Pocket Gamer. These cover multiple events and seem to pass WP:BLP1E per my reading of the actual policy (not an imagined version only viewable in my head; see above for context). It's week because I do think its close to the edge and lots of it is passing. I actually think (unlike some it seems) it's reasonable to disagree with this reading of the sources. P.S. I'm unlikely to respond to a bludgeoning wall of text under this, so feel free to save it unless you have something new to add. Many thanks, in advance. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 22:26, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLUDGEONing. —Fortuna, imperatrix 12:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Let’s be crystal clear: You don’t get to swing in with a “Weak keep”, cite a bundle of barely-there coverage, then duck behind a polite “I probably won’t respond” and expect your take to go unchecked. Nah. You tossed a match in a dry forest and now it’s time to deal with the blaze.

You say these sources “cover multiple events”? False. They echo the same viral incident and do it through a limited lens. This isn’t WP:NBIO — it’s WP:1EVENT in disguise, trying to wear a press badge like armor.

The Hill? Syndicated reprint with no original reporting.

The Advocate? Advocacy journalism with a narrow frame and minimal depth.

Pocket Gamer? That’s niche industry commentary, not biographical substance.

CBS? Local affiliate regurgitating the same incident like the rest.

We not cherry-picking logos here. Notability isn’t a sticker collection. You need depth, independent insight, and substantial coverage — not a stack of reactive headlines off one event thread. Per WP:GNG, passing coverage must build a narrative beyond a single flashpoint. This ain’t that.

Now let’s talk BLP1E: This person is only in the news because of one isolated controversy. Not a career, not a body of work, not sustained relevance — just an algorithmic moment. And if we’re really upholding Wikipedia’s values, we don’t preserve pages built on the backs of virality alone, especially when it risks long-term harm to a living subject without lasting notability.

“Might as well get back on topic.”

Then let’s stay on topic, and the topic is not who feels warm fuzzies from visibility, it’s whether this article meets the threshold for inclusion. It doesn’t.

And finally — if you don’t want “a wall of text,” maybe don’t build a wall of shallow logic and expect people not to knock it down. This ain’t bludgeoning — it’s surgical teardown of a weak argument hiding behind fake neutrality.

Don’t confuse verbosity with rigor. I brought both. Momentoftrue (talk) 22:32, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Let’s be crystal clear: You don’t get to swing in with a “Weak keep”, cite a bundle of barely-there coverage, then duck behind a polite “I probably won’t respond” and expect your take to go unchecked. No actually, I can and I will, thanks. It's not actually up to you how other people WP:!vote and nobody has to run anything past you for approval. This will be closed in ~6 days by an uninvolved closser (who'll have to wade through this mess). I trust them to separate the wheat-discussion from the chaff-bludgeon. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 22:45, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Let me return the favor with equal clarity:

You can say “I can and I will” all you want — but when that “will” is propped up by flimsy sourcing and a disclaimer that you’re too checked out to defend it, don’t be shocked when someone does check it.

This ain’t about who’s allowed to WP:!vote — it’s about whether that vote means anything when it leans on misunderstood policy, shallow sourcing, and a “don’t @ me” energy. If you drop a take into a public, policy-driven discussion, you invited scrutiny. And if your sources don’t hold up? Expect someone to say so. Loudly.

“Nobody has to run anything past you for approval.”

Cool. Nobody said they did.

But if you step into an AfD and toss in weak rationale, don’t act brand new when someone holds it under a microscope. That’s not gatekeeping — that’s quality control, and it’s the backbone of this whole project.

And about that closer?

Yeah, I trust them too — to cut through the feel-good “keep” takes that crumple under GNG or BLP1E. To see the difference between good-faith diligence and what y’all are calling “bludgeoning” just because I’m not folding.

So no — this ain’t about me needing your permission.

It’s about you not getting a pass when your vote comes wrapped in weak policy and a warning label that says “won’t engage further.”

Because guess what?

Wikipedia isn’t a safehouse for bad arguments.

It’s a platform that lives and dies by evidence, policy, and the will to enforce them — no matter how “messy” that gets.

So go ahead.

Drop the “weak keep.”

Mute the thread.

But don’t confuse silence with strength — I’ll still be here, dissecting every claim, line by line, while the real consensus builds around the truth — not convenience. Momentoftrue (talk) 22:47, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:13, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:15, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Biography (A&E taskforce) has been notified of this ongoing discussion. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:19, 18 June 2025 (UTC) [reply]
Comment some recent sources for Lilly Contino that have not been used in the article but may provide guidance in the deletion discussion include:

For what it's worth, I do not like these sources as many of them are blatantly transphobic in their reporting (regardless of how one feels about Contino and her actions, which are not the focus of this discussion). However, they appear to all be credible sources according to Wikipedia guidelines, so I thought I would add them here. If someone else wants to add them into the article, please feel free to. If they do not appear reliable, then please disregard.

-- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:37, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've added these to the article talk page, though the WP:IBTIMES and WP:DISTRACTIFY links were quickly removed, the rest seem reliable enough from a very cursory glance. I lack the interest in incorporating them into the article myself(nor do I have the stomach to read that transphobia, my god), but perhaps another editor will be able to make use of them. Taffer 😊💬_(she/they) 17:16, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thank you for doing that! -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 04:30, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLUDGEONing. —Fortuna, imperatrix 12:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The sources being offered in this AfD are not reliable. They’re barely sources at all. Every link cited—International Business Times, Distractify, National World, Florida’s Voice, P-Magazine—they’re not independent, in-depth journalistic outlets. They are shallow content farms, tabloids, or politically biased blogs, trafficking in ragebait and recycling the same surface-level controversy. There is no meaningful original reporting, no sustained coverage of a career, no exploration of significance, and no biographical depth. These are not WP:RS-compliant sources. They are digital mirrors reflecting the same viral moment. That’s it.

Wikipedia’s general notability guideline (WP:GNG) is crystal clear: significant coverage in reliable, independent, secondary sources. Not a few throwaway articles echoing Twitter drama. Not reactionary posts exploiting culture war tension. Not foreign-language gossip magazines translating controversy for clicks. Real notability is proven with depth, substance, and multiplicity. This has none of that. What’s being presented is a hollow loop of exposure—not evidence of lasting importance.

This article exists because of a single viral backlash tied to a one-time incident. That is textbook WP:BLP1E territory. Wikipedia does not exist to document every person who went viral once and caused outrage. That’s not biography. That’s spectacle. Encyclopedias do not serve outrage cycles. They record lasting relevance. There is no long-term significance here, no follow-up trajectory, no transformation of public conversation that warrants preservation in an encyclopedia. There’s no book, no movement, no platform beyond short-term TikTok fame. Once the algorithms move on, there’s nothing left.

And let’s be absolutely clear: throwing procedural notices like “this was tagged under WikiProject USA” or “Authors” or “A&E Biography” does not prove notability. That’s just process. It’s internal housekeeping. It doesn’t validate the topic. It doesn’t magically elevate a gossip piece into reliable coverage. Stop treating basic template tagging as if it establishes merit. It doesn’t.

What we are looking at is not a person with an encyclopedic footprint—it’s a page built on the back of virality, controversy, and digital rage. A house of cards held together by screenshots and bad headlines. There’s no framework of notability underneath it. There’s no reason for this article to remain. It doesn’t meet Wikipedia’s minimum threshold for existence.

And on top of all this, let’s not ignore what’s really happening. Most of the coverage is hostile, inflammatory, and borderline or overtly transphobic. Wikipedia’s policies on living people (WP:BLP) and neutrality demand exceptional care, not reckless documentation of online mobs. The subject is not notable. But even if she were, the weight and tone of this coverage would still make inclusion dangerous and unethical. Wikipedia is not a vessel for channeling outrage into permanent record. It must be responsible with how it treats real people’s lives. This article is not responsible. It is not ethical. It is not encyclopedic.

This is deletion beyond reasonable doubt. Every standard—GNG, BLP1E, RS, NOTNEWS, NPOV, TOOSOON—is being violated. This is not a close call. It is not a gray area. This page should be gone, fully, cleanly, and without delay. No redirect. No merge. Just delete. Momentoftrue (talk) 04:21, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again, Momentoftrue. It's clear that you have misunderstood what the notices "WikiProject USA”, “Authors”, and “A&E Biography” are for. Especially as you directed this, again, at me, when I have made no argument for keeping this article. I don't care if it gets deleted, but I do care about clear discussion and consensus being reached. These discussion inclusions are not to establish notability nor validity. They are notices showing that this deletion conversation has been added to their topics pages because those topics are relevant to the deletion subject. It's simply to encourage more people to engage in the conversation (whether for or against deletion). Contino is American, hence this discussion being included in the List of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Contino is a video game writer, hence being included in the List of Authors-related deletion discussions. Continio is a content creator/social media personality, hence the notfication to WikiProject Biography A&E Taskforce. None of this is done as a way to try and "prove notability" nor is it done as a way to "validate the topic". As you can see, earlier on this discussion was also included in internet-related deletion discussions and biography-related deletion discussions, as both are also applicable. Hope this helps clear up any confusion you have on how deletion discussions work. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 04:44, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You keep repeating that these WikiProject tags are “just notifications” as if that somehow matters. The problem isn’t that anyone thinks they prove notability — the problem is they’re being dropped in bulk to pad this AfD with a false sense of legitimacy. It’s distraction, plain and simple. Tagging a bunch of projects does nothing to change the fact that this article has zero significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources per WP:GNG.

Contino being American, a writer, or an influencer means absolutely nothing without notable coverage to back it up. This is a textbook case of WP:BLP1E: a one-time controversy endlessly recycled through tabloid sources, not lasting significance. No deep reporting. No career overview. No impact documented by reliable outlets. That’s the actual issue here — not how AfD banners are used.

So instead of doubling down on procedural noise, let’s keep the focus on what matters: this article doesn’t meet the notability bar and needs to be deleted.

Momentoftrue (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear you don't understand what inclusion in deletion discussions is for. Please re-read what I stated above. I am not arguing notability, nor have I, nor will I. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 05:09, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Then why bring it up at all? If you’re not arguing for notability, stop padding the thread with procedural noise. This isn’t about understanding what inclusion in deletion discussions technically means — it’s about why you’re using it in a way that distracts from the real question: Does this subject meet WP:GNG?

Spoiler: It doesn’t. No significant, independent, in-depth coverage. Just a viral moment regurgitated by tabloids and low-tier blogs. WikiProject notices don’t change that. They don’t strengthen the article. They don’t rebut deletion. So if you’re not using them to argue for keeping, then they’re irrelevant to this discussion. Full stop

Momentoftrue (talk) 05:15, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I already stated above why deletion discussions are included in sorting lists. You didn't seem to have an issue earlier when User:Wcquidditch added this discussion into the sorting lists for Women, Journalism, Video games, Sexuality and gender, California, and Minnesota.. so why are you having this reaction now with me? -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 05:20, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You’re right that sorting lists are standard practice. But let’s be very clear: inclusion in these lists is meaningless when it comes to establishing notability. It doesn’t matter if this was added to Women, Journalism, Video games, or the Galactic Senate — that has zero bearing on whether the subject meets WP:GNG. These are organizational tools for participation, not arguments for inclusion. No one’s “having a reaction” to you — the reaction is to a pattern of editors propping up a fundamentally hollow article with procedural fluff.

What actually matters — and what continues to be completely absent — is significant, in-depth coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources. Not gossip sites. Not recycled outrage. Not tabloid blurbs about one viral controversy. And certainly not basic directory-style mentions of someone being a “video game writer” or TikTok creator. There is no serious journalistic engagement with this person’s career, impact, or body of work. Just a one-time firestorm that faded as fast as it came — textbook WP:BLP1E.

This page is not encyclopedic. It is event amplification, plain and simple. No amount of name-dropping project tags will change that. So let’s cut through the procedural noise and get back to the core of AfD: Does this article satisfy the standards of notability and verifiability? It does not. And until someone produces actual WP:SIGCOV from reliable sources, all the sorting lists in the world won’t fix that.

Momentoftrue (talk) 06:03, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Willthacheerleader18, I hope this reads as well intentioned as its meant to be, but I'd encourage you to drop the stick as well. Momentoftrue's bludgeoning is obviously unacceptable, but the continued back and forth is fanning the flames. The closing admin will handle what's happening here appropriately, I recommend disengaging. Taffer 😊💬_(she/they) 06:57, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I tried that but they continue to spam regardless. I will no longer participate in this discussion. I hope someone deals with this. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 07:32, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

comment (strongly felt) I'm not surprised, Willthacheerleader18. This is a ridiculous AfD and I'm ashamed to be involved. Arguments are not measured by how many kilobytes you use to repeat the same argument over and over again. I've not read all of it. I would be surprised if anyone has. It seems that the thrust is that editors should not be repeatedly creating needless content based on a single idea or an aim for good work...... and to convince anyone who cares to read it ... someone is repeatedly creating needless content based on a single idea!! Talking of "textbook WP:BLP1E territory" ... this is ONE article and ONE AfD. If an article was written in this way then it would be instantly deleted. My advice is to stop typing... no one is listening... and you undermining your argument by restating it over and over again. I could repeat this message below in umpteen different ways, but it would undermine this message. Pleased read and heed this short message. Victuallers (talk) 08:14, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Victuallers: Thank you. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:36, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Oaktree b, Bearian and the sources identified by Taffer. —Fortuna, imperatrix 13:21, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for hatting parts of this discussion, Fortuna imperatrix mundi. I read a lot of it but it was extremely repetitive, both the phrasing ("clear" ["Let’s clear something up", "let's be clear"] was used 28 times) and the policy arguments. Textbook bludgeoning. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:12, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to you both. Bearian (talk) 15:08, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as right now, it looks like a probable No consensus closure.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:08, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Other than the current sources being used for the article, this subject has mostly been covered by dubious/unreputable sources. If this subject can only exist in the context of one or two incidents and any other editions are bound to be unhelpful, it may be worth deleting the article. I doubt Lilly Contino will ever be notable outside of niche internet discussions.

Rylee Amelia (talk) 00:11, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Weak delete - Contino seems likely to end up in the news again in the future for other events, but the reporting on her does seem overall dubious. I'm not sure if it's necessarily useful to keep an article on a subject whose notability seems to hinge on "rage baiting" since reporting on that is likely to remain questionably notable/reliable at best, but I'd love to be proven wrong on those fronts. Taffer 😊💬_(she/they) 02:51, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:BLP1E. While there is enough coverage, it does not come from quality sources. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 04:58, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

List of Pokémon characters

AfDs for this article:

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

So to clarify here; this list is discussing the human characters in this series. The fictional species are covered at a variety of lists, most notably List of Pokémon. With that out of the way, let me elaborate.

WP:LISTN defines that the notability of lists is inherently dependent on the notability of the group; i.e, a list of human characters in this series needs to have sources discussing human characters as a whole. From my WP:BEFORE search, the only sources covering this as a group are WP:VALNET sources, which do not confer notability per our guidelines. Most hits for things like "Pokémon characters" are discussing the fictional species of Pokémon, not the human characters in the series, and the few that do discuss humans are either not discussing them as a group, discussing only one particular character (Such as Team Rocket), or are VALNET sources. Every Books or Scholar hit I could find was discussing how the Pokémon species have been interpreted, not any of the human characters. The only real potential hit I found is Newsweek discussing LGBT characters [[5]], but even that is just a summary of stuff existing more than an actual analysis.

Compared to the other human character list for this series (List of Pokémon anime characters), which at least has the potential for a WP:SIZESPLIT given how long the anime's gone for with such a large recurring supporting cast, the Pokémon games comparatively have fewer recurring characters. The bulk of the characters, and indeed the bulk on this list, largely only appear in one game, and are relegated to cameos after their debut. While there are a select few recurring entities like Professor Oak or Cynthia (Pokémon), these few characters are exceptions more than the norm. The vast bulk of these characters could easily be redirected to their debut game, with the few recurring characters easily able to be slotted into a smaller, more condensed character list at Pokémon (video game series) that I'd be willing to work on myself. This list should easily be able to slot into that article without causing bloat once all of the one off characters are redirected back to their original articles, which should prevent UNDUE concerns.

In brief, while the Pokémon species are notable, this separate list for other recurring human characters does not have the same group discussion, nor does it have a valid SIZESPLIT spinout rationale. This list could easily be condensed to slot into another article, and thus overall is unnecessary. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 17:57, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Video games, Lists, and Japan. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 17:57, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and redirect/incorporate characters to their relevant video game articles per nom. -- LWG ^talk 18:45, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Major franchise, several characters (human) are notable, LISN is easily met, I don't see a problem here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:40, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as per nom and LWG. I think I see the logic here. The games never had a 'cast' of characters like one would expect in a conventional narrative game and as such there's not a lot of depth of coverage one would expect for WP:NLIST. Sure, there's a small number of independently notable characters, but in terms of reception and coverage relating to in-game characters, their depth leans much more heavily on how they are portrayed in the anime. There are conventions around the character archetypes of professor, rival, and Elite Four characters from game to game, but:

1. not that many characters actually are notable by the looks of it, and those that are have been subsumed into archetypes rather than specific characters (i.e. Rivals)
2. there aren't really that many sources comparing, discussing or evaluating the broader casts of characters;
3. the characters really aren't that in-depth - for one, Red, a character whose appearance has attracted much secondary coverage, infamously has no dialogue at all in the game; and concurrently
4. this is all fairly simple stuff that can be embedded in a character list as a subsection to the plots of each game article, and the archetypes in the series article.

As the nominator notes, few if any characters really appear consistently across the iterations of the games, with a handful of notable exceptions. So this does feel like an instance where WP:NLIST is arguably not satisfied. What would change my mind on this is if sources are found showing that there is indeed some coverage on the characters as a class. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 05:32, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per LISN- "Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability". I suppose work could be done to redirect, merge, or change this is to something else as the nominator proposed, but that also seems unnecessary and the simplest thing to do is just leave it as is. Rhino131 (talk) 16:13, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - If this is kept, it 100% needs a rename. Something like "List of human characters in Pokemon" or something. The current name is entirely counterintuitive - Pikachus are "characters" even if they're not human. Sergecross73 msg me 18:12, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Second this, most of them are called Pokemon trainers? IgelRM (talk) 18:42, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed if this ends up kept, since most of the hits I found for Pokémon characters were very much not about this particular grouping, and it can conflict with those looking for the species. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 20:06, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There are quite a few articles on Pokemon characters/trainers in Category:Pokémon_characters. A list with a few relevant trainers might be better than many individual articles. IgelRM (talk) 18:48, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@IgelRM the same problems still stand; even if it were to be determined that these characters would be better off not as individual articles, every single character article for a trainer (Bar Team Rocket and Cynthia (Pokémon)) only appeared in one game, or are notable as anime characters, not game characters (Like Ash Ketchum, Brock (Pokémon), Misty (Pokémon)). Given they relate to one game, we'd still have the same problem of these characters only being part of one major entry in a wider list, and we're still not passing LISTN since there's still no group coverage. No matter how it's sliced it's either just recreating the current problem or just creating an additional one. Magneton Considerer: Pokelego999 (Talk) (Contribs) 20:04, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

- @Pokelego999 "Notable as anime characters, not game characters": I did not look at List of Pokémon anime characters before; that list is rather similar also listing Team Rocket. I would consider that part of the AFD as well and would also consider the merge option. IgelRM (talk) 20:58, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to the franchise main article to preserve its history, and then disperse usable information per Pokelego999. LISTN isn't feasible here because it's pulling in too many directions: while one could argue *some* of the character are notable, even some of the trainers to refine that downward, it's hard to argue that there's enough to cover the masses here. Additionally the argument that there's too much work involved to take it down is a terrible one. If anything I think Poke's suggestion has merit. There's also and lastly the problem that a list this monstrous doesn't really inform the reader of anything; it's a dumping ground that has gotten so massive it's next to impossible to find pertinent information, negating its whole purpose even in that regard.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:21, 14 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I believe this does fullfil WP:LISTN and has navigational value for the notable ones and can be a home for brief commentary on non-notable ones in accordance with WP:ATD-M. It is also a good overview on the topic from the viewpoint of the franchise. If there is a size problem, more detailed information can be deferred to individual series, and this being the place where one can see what's out there and where. No objection to a renaming in case someone can come up with a more clear, fitting title. Daranios (talk) 09:50, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per the other delete !votes - the problem with saying it is a list of "Pokemon characters" is that one asks - which Pokemon game or show exactly? The title is too vague, and it is better off done on a game-by-game basis. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:42, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete because List of Pokémon is enough. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 02:25, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak convert to a disambiguation page housing List of Pokémon, List of Pokémon anime characters, and whatever else can be salvaged/scraped up. Otherwise, there's always Bulbapedia. (Might refine my decision based on further objections/support.) --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 23:43, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, opinions are all over the map, there is no consensus right now.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:57, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Pokémon (video game series): Merge a truncated list of the most significant characters to the game series as nom has suggested. A hatnote can be added to the section where the title will redirect to assist readers who may be looking for other relevant lists. silviaASH (inquire within) 23:21, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep just rename it List of Pokémon video game series recurring characters It says in the introduction "This is a list of recurring characters in the Pokémon video game series." Popular video game series always have these. Category:Lists of video game characters It is different than List of Pokémon anime characters. Some characters have their own individual articles, such as Cynthia (Pokémon), Lillie (Pokémon), Nessa (Pokémon), Nemona, Larry (Pokémon), Misty (Pokémon), and Brock (Pokémon), and others are in the group articles of Team Rocket and List of Pokémon rivals. Dream Focus 23:42, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This still doesn't address the problem with the name. Pikachu is still a recurring character, yet would not fall within the scope of the current article. Sergecross73 msg me 18:37, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Merge content to Pokémon (video game series) and other articles per nom. Lists about Pokémon#Characters could be another possible target for a redirect. --Mika1h (talk) 11:39, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per User:Piotrus and User:Dream Focus. I.e. I agree it could be moved to a better title. Christian75 (talk) 12:34, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and support move to List of Pokémon video game series recurring characters. It needs work, but several characters are notable and have their own articles, and a better title would more clearly indicate what the list covers. MidnightMayhem 04:19, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wraith Games

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:NCORP. Coverage and sources used consists of simple mentions or obscure websites of dubious reliability, with reliable significant coverage being in the minority. Go D. Usopp (talk) 08:47, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Video games, Companies, and Ohio. Go D. Usopp (talk) 08:47, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It is my belief that the main problem with the article is that it is old. There appear to be newer sources of higher notability and reliability stating not only much of the same information as in the article currently, but there is new information as well. It is likely that only some information will need to be removed, if at all. Sirkidd2003 (talk) 16:15, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The Journal-News article is SIGCOV, but there isn't much else to go on. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:58, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's also a local article, concurring Delete. IgelRM (talk) 21:24, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP I have gone through and restructured the article, removing what I view as outdated information and sources of low notability. I have also gone in and added new info to strengthen the worth of the article and added stronger sources wherever applicable. I've got a bunch of sources compiled, and I feel that, even if this updated version isn't enough yet (though I hope it is), there are enough good sources and noteworthy information to make an article on this topic work. Sirkidd2003 (talk) 12:53, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Keep voters should mention specific sources that they feel establish notability.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 09:00, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To be very pedantic; there was one keep voter, who commented twice. IgelRM (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Gustavinho em o Enigma da Esfinge

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Orphaned article with little content; the original game has little sigcov of note, with only notable coverage being reviews of the remake, with individual review websites being of unclear reliability. Go D. Usopp (talk) 08:39, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Video games and Brazil. Go D. Usopp (talk) 08:39, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Some of the sites covering the remake seem reliable: [6], [7]. But there is no significant coverage, only announcements of the remake, no critical analysis. --Mika1h (talk) 08:58, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple reliable sources including a short article in the Folha de São Paulo (https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/paywall/login.shtml?https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folhinha/2013/01/1216509-gustavinho-em-o-enigma-da-esfinge-ganha-versao-para-ipad.shtml) (needs subscription); G1 (website) [these are the articles linked in the !vote above; and of course these two sites not only seem but are extremely reliable and the second article is more than an "announcement" while the first indicates the game was a success and how many copies it sold.] https://g1.globo.com/tecnologia/noticia/2013/01/classico-brasileiro-gustavinho-e-o-enigma-da-esfinge-e-relancado.html ; https://gamehall.com.br/gustavinho-em-o-enigma-da-esfinge-relembre-o-adventure-brasileiro-com-participacao-de-marisa-orth/ Universo Online : https://www.uol.com.br/start/ultimas-noticias/2013/01/11/classico-adventure-brasileiro-gustavinho-em-o-enigma-da-esfinge-retorna-em-versao-para-ios.htm ; https://ne10.uol.com.br/mundobit/2013/01/19/a-semana-em-games-classico-brasileiro-o-enigma-da-esfinge-ganha-versao-para-ipad/index.html ; https://44e.com.br/Interactive/Conteudo?emp=3&cat=21 https://bojoga.com.br/artigos/retroplay/computadores/gustavinho-em-o-enigma-da-esfinge-44-bico-largo-1996/ and so on (all sources widely describing the game as a classic and a "great success").--Artus Sauerfog Dark-Eon (talk) 10:00, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 14:18, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I found a video on Alê McHaddo, the developer's founder, by Meio&Mensagem. IgelRM (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

2 more related sources: A animação de um artista, Osmar: A Primeira Fatia do Pão de Forma completa 30 anos. Both don't appear give this game much notability. IgelRM (talk) 14:44, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - So I had look at the sources again and the news announcement by Universo Online is the best one: [8]. It contains some critical analysis. Then there is a preview of the original game when it was still in development in this print magazine: [9]. I still think this subject is below notability. No actual review of the original game or the remake. There are really short writeups: [10]:

"Nesta edição, o pessoal da CD Expert Kids caprichou. E a criançada irá viajar ao Egito, junto com Gustavinho, um menino esperto e cheio de energia. Serão horas de diversão e aventuras inimagináveis na tentativa de desvendar os mistérios do Oriente Médio, tudo isso num CD- ROM totalmente em português e com a participação especial de Marisa Orth, a Magda do programa Sai de Baixo."

Google translate: "In this edition, the folks at CD Expert Kids have gone all out. And the kids will travel to Egypt, along with Gustavinho, a smart and energetic boy. There will be hours of fun and unimaginable adventures in an attempt to unravel the mysteries of the Middle East, all on a CD-ROM entirely in Portuguese and with a special appearance by Marisa Orth, Magda from the program Sai de Baixo."

This thing: [11] and this: [12]. You would think that something called a "classic" would get an actual review or retrospective in 29 years... --Mika1h (talk) 22:33, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:SIGCOV - from all appearances, a niche show and game. I'm not convinced that uol.com.br is a reliable source. Bearian (talk) 00:45, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What article specifically? The newspaper mentioned above appears rather reliable. IgelRM (talk) 14:17, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Beenox

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Appears to fail WP:NCORP. The most prominent coverage I found is after the acquisition from gamesindustry.biz. A list of games alone is as good as a games developed by Beenox category. I suggest a redirect to Activision and perhaps a merge of the paragraph of the founder departure and new office. IgelRM (talk) 20:44, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Video games, Companies, and Canada. IgelRM (talk) 20:44, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Activision as nominated based on WP:NCORP. Studio articles that function as little else as lists of games don't demonstrate the notability of the developer without deeper coverage - see thoughts at WP:NOTWORK. That coverage is not really there once you take out all the On X date, Beenox released Y title content. That said, it's not very weak, just not enough to justify an article on presented sourcing. Could be if more of the ilk like the GamesIndustry.biz coverage is found. This outlet seems to have had a porting role in a large number of high-profile games. Is there more out there? ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 08:30, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- The below sources have established the existence of coverage to warrant a keep. Thanks to @Tanonero: and @Hannes Röst: for taking a look and finding more sources. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 07:03, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Vrxces: I am just curious, and I don't mean to be confrontational, but wouldn't it have been easier if you had looked for the sources yourself and ascertained the potential notability of the article, instead of opening a deletion process? I missread the thread. --Tanonero (msg) 13:59, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. There is enough history to show the company's progression and its relevance within the game industry. There is also plenty of coverage on GamesIndustry.biz to demonstrate the company's notability and that can easily be integrated into the article, for instance, 1, 2, 3, and 4 and many more. Wikipedia would gain nothing by deleting this article. --Tanonero (msg) 15:28, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I note that I linked the 3 source in my nomination already. Further the 1 source is an interview about places to work, which generally don't add notability. The 4 source is an interview about Activision and licensed games.

From a WP:BEFORE, the founder Dominique Brown has more coverage than this company. What this AFD tries to achieve is more equal appliance of policy that isn't a video game database. IgelRM (talk) 18:10, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep. I think there is enough there to justify an article, some more articles from different sources [13] [14] [15] and the article contains more than just a list of titles. --hroest 18:39, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The first 2 sources are press releases and after Activision's acquisition. Edit Correction: the 3 source is about Activision and the developer staffing up for Call of Duty, not particular significant? IgelRM (talk) 18:15, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Activision#Studios, that one Gamesindustry.biz article cited by nominator seems to be the only piece of significant coverage. Interviews and press releases are considered primary sources. GameRant article is by WP:VALNET so it shouldn't be used for notability but it's also fairly standard coverage of personnel hiring, trivial coverage per WP:ORGTRIV. --Mika1h (talk) 23:14, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Sufficient sources to document the studio's notability, though it needs some updating. Go D. Usopp (talk) 02:03, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please give an example or is a source review table necessary? IgelRM (talk) 20:30, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Looks like a consensus to Keep but the nominator suggested having a source analysis table.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:19, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source assessment table prepared by User:IgelRM
Source	Reliable?	Significant coverage?	Count source toward GNG?
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/meet-the-best-places-to-work-in-canadas-games-industry?page=2		Interview with the studio head for being nominated for "Best Places To Work" by the publication	✘ No
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/beenox-to-open-new-studio-in-montreal			✘ No
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/activisions-beenox-to-create-more-original-titles			✔ Yes
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/activisions-reputation-probably-unfair-says-spider-man-developer		Interview with the studio head about Activision	✘ No
https://gamerant.com/activision-beenox-call-of-duty-support/	~	"According to a report by Benzinga", which means a press release per linked "Source: Benzinga" at the end of the article.	✘ No
https://www.polygon.com/2012/12/14/3767352/beenox-founder-leaves		According to press release, 3 sentences article.	✘ No
https://www.macworld.com/article/166245/beenox-2.html			✔ Yes
https://www.macworld.com/article/174622/beenox-4.html		Few sentences on announcements with Mac focus.	✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.

. IgelRM (talk) 18:31, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Any comments on the table?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, asilvering (talk) 02:13, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

List of Uma Musume Pretty Derby characters

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:NLIST. Character info are mostly unsourced with release info sources being unreliable. Not a plausible search term to be redirected. Go D. Usopp (talk) 15:04, 6 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Video games, Anime and manga, and Japan. Go D. Usopp (talk) 15:04, 6 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Massive plotcruft, no context given. WP:INDISCRIMINATE failed. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 15:28, 6 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 15:34, 6 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NLIST. I've seen similar lists survive deletion before, but that's where the sourcing covers the entire information presented, and doesn't go overboard with plot minutiae. Given the principle that plot is generally self-sourced from the work, the first part is more fatal to WP:NLIST than the latter. It is way too much though. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 12:54, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep. The article was split from the main Uma Musume Pretty Derby article last March, which had 223k bytes prior to the split, and the character list made up a good chunk of that at the time. While I'm not sure if the list as is is particularly well written, I also don't think that merging it back in to the main article would be helpful for the average reader, let alone deleting the article outright with no explanation of who makes an appearance. --Jnglmpera (talk) 07:56, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think the appropriate decision would have been to significantly trim the list instead of spinning it out. IgelRM (talk) 21:39, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:SURMOUNTABLE. These characters are mentioned in reliable sources (as used in the article and per WP:A&M/ORS) which include Anime News Network, Nikkan Sports, Comic Natalie and Oricon. In my opinion the character list needs to be trimmed down to just the main characters with character descriptions taken from the WP:RS. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:10, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Mentions alone aren't enough, the sources need to be significantly in-depth on the characters specifically for notability. IgelRM (talk) 21:40, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
So have additional sources been looked for? After doing a quick search I found this source by THEM reviews (reliable per WP:A&M/ORS). This can be built up into a section regarding character reviews. Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:01, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure, but this is really a review of the anime and not characters specifically. IgelRM (talk) 13:49, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No, it also goes into detail about the characters. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:41, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, I narrowed the article's scope to just include the horse girl characters. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:28, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:SURMOUNTABLE, WP:SPLIT, and WP:HEY. The list was in bad shape at the time of the AfD nom and is still not great, but the article has been improved by KnowledgeKid87 since the nomination. The subject itself (characters from Uma Musume) is notable, so it is just a question of how best to cover it, and merging this back into the game article would yield readability and undue concerns. Flip^and Flopped ㋡ 13:49, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to discuss the edits to the article since nomination and both delete !votes.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Toadspike [Talk] 19:39, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Zxcvbnm@Vrxces@Go D. Usopp, would you mind taking another look at the list? It has been edited significantly since you !voted. Toadspike [Talk] 19:41, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Still fails WP:NLIST. A majority of sources are used to reference the casting of voice actors, with only a single citation used to document a character in the list. Go D. Usopp (talk) 02:00, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You cite notability as the main issue, yet I found at least one source which discusses the characters. With all due respect, did you follow through with WP:DILIGENCE before nominating this article for deletion? Knowledgekid87 (talk) 12:39, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to main article; I don't see the notability for the list and the character description are still really original research. IgelRM (talk) 13:56, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The character descriptions can be fixed. I see notability for the list as the cast and descriptions for the characters are covered in WP:RS. Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:45, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:22, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep a characters list for a notable franchise is per se notable, as it is not a separate topic, but a separate article split for readability and size purposes. No objection to further trimming and sourcing, but as pointed out above, those are SURMOUNTABLE problems. Jclemens (talk) 04:07, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This is duplicate of your comment above and WP does not have a guideline like that. IgelRM (talk) 13:54, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: It looks like this might close as a No consensus or Keep but I'm relisting to give editors a chance to also consider Redirection.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:59, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Knowledgekid87 and their improvement of the article. The THEM Review should be enough for reception a bit, as should the ANN ones (don't have time to assess them right now tho). I also found several academic sources which, similar to the keep precedent with a similar XFD but to a lesser extent, may help the article: an in-depth analysis of the umamusume species; an academic case study for the contractions of characters' names in the context of linguistics; (to a lesser extent) official ethic rules on derivative works for the characters (10-12); and some citation-only stuff (while the sources aren't linked, the title indicates there's coverage) such as an article on "memorial services" for umamusume and two articles on at least one of the character's (multiple characters are implied in at least one of them, but the lack of plural indicators in Japanese makes it hard to tell) impact on the region around Hidaka, Hokkaido ([16][17]). ミラP@Miraclepine 01:55, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The sources in the linked FGO AFD are WP:VALNET sources, so I don't think this is any kind of precedent. I have not looked at the scholarly sources, but generally I think this type of notability cannot be established solely with those. IgelRM (talk) 19:07, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the Valnet sources aren't academic sources, hence why I did not refer to them in the context of my !vote. ミラP@Miraclepine 01:42, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed deletions

Redirects