Wikipedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard: Difference between revisions

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Requests for adminship and bureaucratship update

No current discussions. Recent RfAs, recent RfBs: (successful, unsuccessful)

It is 16:59:15 on June 7, 2025, according to the server's time and date.

Admin how-to guide and new admin school

I've been working to revamp the new admin school (which was actually renamed to just "new admin"), and since you guys are the ones who direct new admins to such pages I thought I'd ask for a little input. I noticed WP:ADMINGUIDE repeats much of the info at WP:NAS, and presents it in a less-organized way. So what I'd like to do is merge everything into "new admin", as otherwise having this information fragmented like this is confusing and makes it difficult to maintain. Some things like merging page histories we're not really going to be able to provide a playground for new admins to test it out, so we're in effect stepping away from a "school" and just providing a single comprehensive reference point. Any thoughts on this matter? It's a lot of work that I'm willing to undertake but I figure I should make sure everyone is OK with it before proceeding. We might also consider a new name entirely, perhaps "admin reference"? — MusikAnimal ^talk 03:14, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I helped write some of the New Admin School eight years ago (in fact, its creation stemmed from when I was a new admin in need of how to use the tools), and so I've noticed that over time parts of it have become outdated and messy. If you're willing to put in time and effort to tidy and update it, I would be extremely grateful. :) Acalamari 13:52, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I put some effort in not too long ago to update some of the areas including new screenshots, but it could probably still do with some work. Sam Walton (talk) 14:52, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes it is badly outdated, I've come to find out. I think I've got the blocking and protection pages all up to speed, and I unified a user rights management section. Next I want to merge in WP:ADMINGUIDE, which is going to take a while. I also want to add a section for the basics on responding to reports at noticeboards, such as AIV, RFPP etc. I think the more comprehensive we make WP:NAS the less we'll have to "learn on the job". I know I personally made a handful of mistakes as a new admin just because I was trying to learn the ropes out on the field, as prior documentation did not exist. — MusikAnimal ^talk 17:48, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Kudos to anyone willing to work on the new admin guide. It appears there is a procedure for dealing with deceased editors, which I was supposed to know about. Perhaps it can be included.--S Philbrick(Talk) 02:13, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I didn't know about that either. I can try to work out a miscellaneous section for little things like this — MusikAnimal ^talk 03:10, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

The WP:Deceased_Wikipedians/Guidelines is the actual guideline, starting with being sure the user actually died. We post a request at WP:RFPP and link to the guide as here. (I didn't add the non-breaking spaces, just the request at the bottom of the diff...grumble.) On the confirmed death of an administrator, there would be a post here (and probably to the crat mail list). I wasn't aware that User:Telsa died. DocTree (ʞlɐʇ·ʇuoɔ) WER 04:37, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Please reinstate my access to the admin tools

In September I asked that the admin tools be removed from my account while I was travelling overseas in case anything went wrong from using shared internet connections. I've now returned home and would appreciate it if my access to the tools could be reinstated. Thanks, Nick-D (talk) 02:49, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with this. Just don't go reblocking yourself. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 20:17, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

 Done. 28bytes (talk) 04:00, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I haven't blocked myself since 2009! Nick-D (talk) 04:03, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Requesting desysop

Given the recommendations that have been made to me, I voluntarily lay down my adminship, recognizing that I will need to make a new request for adminship in order to have a chance at becoming an administrator again. I understand that becoming an administrator again in the future will not be automatic upon reapplication. Neelix (talk) 19:14, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

 Done. 28bytes (talk) 19:30, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I think this was the right choice, thank you for that Neelix. Worm^TT(talk) 19:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Kudos for making the right decision.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Ditto to the above. Hope this whole saga doesn't get to you too much. Mdann52 (talk) 21:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Resysop please

It turns out that once you've tasted the sweet ambrosia of the admin bit, it's hard to stomach the bitter delay inherent in using RFPP and AIV and CSD as a mere mortal. While I suppose I should stay desysopped for a few months longer, to more forcefully remind myself how annoying we make it for normal editors, I just don't think I have the patience for it. Also, if this only takes 24 hours, I might be able to be the one who blocks the joker in the section above (now deleted)... --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:30, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I've half a mind to waive the 24 hour thing. –xeno^talk 20:42, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any issues. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:30, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

• *JOY* HighInBC 23:33, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Welcome back. 28bytes (talk) 20:30, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Mwahahaha! Fools! They don't even see what they've done yet! (oops, did I say that out loud?) Um, I mean, thanks 28! --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:57, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Admin bit for non-admin arbitrators

With an ArbCom election looming, what would bureaucrats need before flipping the bit for successful non-admin candidates? Would they - and the WMF do for CU and OS purposes - regard an ArbCom election as an "RFA-identical process" and flip the bit without much thought? Would they regard the tools as an essential for the performance of arbitrator duties? Would they require a clear mandate (and if so from whom)? This is better addressed earlier than later as the assumption in some quarters that non-admins will never be elected because they don't hold the tools is a serious electoral disadvantage. FWIW, I'm dead against the idea of a post-election RFA for successful candidates because it gives the participants an opportunity to veto a much much broader community process (cf. Level of Consensus. Perhaps more to the point, how do we get clarity on this before the voting begins?  Roger Davies ^talk 09:50, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Personally, as I've commented elsewhere - I believe that the Arbcom election process is a higher standard of scrutiny than a standard RfA - for one thing there are more voters, more questions and guides. I also believe that any candidate who is elected to Arbcom should receive the admin bit for at least the period they are on Arbcom - to allow them to see all available evidence, not only deleted edits - but context such as how easy or difficult it might be to make a "mistake" with the tools. I think we'd need an RfC on the matter though. Worm^TT(talk) 10:10, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response, Dave. Could the EC (@Guy Macon, Mdann52, and Mike V:) comment here please as it is fairly firmly in their court too?  Roger Davies ^talk 10:13, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I suggest we run a quick RFC so that this can be resolved before any specific personalities get involved. The decision should be independent of who is elected. Jehochman ^Talk 10:18, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why Arbitrators need to be admins. I thought the whole point of having non-admins on ArbCom is to offer a different perspective? Admittedly, It might mean that a non-admin Arbitrator could only participate in some ArbCom business, but isn't that the choice of the voters who support such a candidate? If admin rights are to be granted to successful non-admin ArbCom candidates (either temporarily or permanently) without an RfA, I would like to see that endorsed by the community at an RfC. I'm not happy with the decision being made by ArbCom and/or the bureaucrats alone. WJBscribe (talk) 11:25, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Historically, my understanding of WMF's view is that ENWP's arbcom is more than equivalent to going through an RfA, and thus sufficient from WMF's POV to make any non-admin who becomes an arb an admin. I suspect if it happens (and keep in mind that it still hasn't, and very well may not this year,) that arbcom would pass a motion sysopping whatever non-admin became an arb. Arbs require much higher levels of trust than admins do, both because of the information they have access to and their role. I don't know whether it's fully automatic anywhere and am a bit too tired to find the policy page offhand right now, but all arbs hold both CU and OS, correct? Both of which require far greater trust than +sysop. (Even if they aren't automatically made CU and OS, they control who in the community is made CU and OS - and it'd be pretty weird for someone who couldn't see deleted pages having a significant vote towards who becomes CU/OS. As pointed out above, someone acting as an arb would be pretty much cripple without the ability to review deleted revisions, etc, crippling their ability to view a lot of evidence involved in arb cases, and at the same time, an arb running an RfA would be pretty awkward. I guess the motion sysopping them could be limited to their term as an arb - but after a year or two of acting as a reasonable arb, would it really be reasonable to expect them to run through RfA after they step down? Particularly since even most ex-arbs are on functionaries still, unless I'm mistaken. Kevin Gorman (talk) 11:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

One of the main concerns is not being able to see deleted content, does granting Oversight to a non-administrator give the ability to see garden variety deleted (not just suppressed) content? If so that would mitigate a lot of the concerns. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 11:40, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Both CUs and OS can view deleted revisions, and Arbs can appoint themselves to this role under the "RFA-identical" provision, so I don't see what argument there is for them to be administrators. If they also need other admin privileges, such as IPBE or EFM, those can be added separately. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:45, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

That was my line of thinking, however I have never seen a non-administrator checkuser or oversighter to verify. As I mentioned, the main concern I have seen with a non-administrator not being as effective as an Arbitrator is the inability to see deleted content, so if being a CU or OS will grant that, and being elected is an RfA identical process, as determined by the WMF, then there is no need to grant the admin bit. Especially since a portion of non-admins will certainly get votes specifically since they are not admins. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 11:51, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily saying Arbs shouldn't be given +sysop if they don't have it already, although I'm not convinced. But I want the community to be the ones to decide this point (when given all the facts, including that CU & OS allows users to view deleted edits). FWIW, I don't think ArbCom could just require +sysop to be added to its new non-admin members by motion - the community has never authorised it to create new sysops, much as it has never authorised bureaucrats to create new sysops without RfAs. If this is seen as a "no brainer", it should be possible to get a consensus at an RfC within the next couple of weeks (i.e. before the end of the election). A few questions that might be considered are:

1. Should those elected to ArbCom who are not admins be granted +sysop automatically?
2. Should this be temporary (for the period of their term on ArbCom) or permanent?
3. Should their use of +sysop be limited to ArbCom business?

WJBscribe (talk) 11:52, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

+sysop is needed for OS to function properly (I believe), due to the permissions needed - although this may have changed! If need be, I can test this out, but the issue is it may not be the same as it is on here!! Mdann52 (talk) 12:12, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

So that is two completely opposite answers to the same question. I don't think we have a non-sysop oversight user. If we wanted to give it a test, it could be assigned to my sock account (or another Oversight user's test account) temporarily and I (or they) would be able to tell you for certain. I think this is an important answer to have prior to any RfC on the matter. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 12:17, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Is Mdann52 referring to a different wiki? Enwiki's OS and CU groups have been tweaked to add 'browsearchive', 'deletedhistory' and 'deletedtext; this can be seen by looking at Special:ListGroupRights. However there would be no better way to know for sure, because no one probably does, than for an oversighter to test each of the permissions on this wiki. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 12:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense. And thinking about it now, probably an easier way to do this would be to have, for example, my regular account (this one) desysopped temporarily to test it, rather than granting it to a sock/test account. I am good with that too. If a 'crat wants to remove my sysop flag for a few hours I can test it out today. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 12:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

scratch what I said, they've changed it now :) Mdann52 (talk) 13:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Good to hear. That should probably be mentioned somewhere on the ACE page, as it seems to be something that is not very well known. I am still around for a few hours if someone wants me to field test it. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 16:02, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

If oversighters and/or checkusers were also given (abusefilter-view-private) then they'd be able to "see" everything that a normal user couldn't. Kharkiv07 (T) 16:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Can I just confirm that non-Admins elected to ArbCom can be given OS without becoming Admins? Would there be objections to us granting them OS status? If they can and it's ok for us to do it, it certainly should be mentioned on the ACE page. I don't think the inability to block is a problem. Doug Weller (talk) 19:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't possible for a non-admin to have OS back when I applied for it. @Risker: may remember the particulars (I'm still searching for the offical statement). Mlpearc (open channel) 19:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

WMF will not allow arbcom to grant CU/OS to an editor who has not passed an Rfa-like process, but they consider arbom election such a process. See discussion. NE Ent

• What is this strange resistance to just giving the admin bit to non-admins who get elected as arbs? It makes zero sense that we'd be comfortable with them using CU and OS, and viewing deleted content, and helping decide on who to siteban and all kinds of other restrictions, but not want them be able to protect pages and block people (the only things they still wouldn't be able to do if given CU/OS). If we don't trust someone to protect/block, then there is no way we should elect them to arbcom. Rather than try to figure out workarounds, just flip the admin bit if they get elected. Unless for some reason they don't want any particular bit, in which case do whatever they ask. In fact, wasn't there a discussion about this a year or two ago, where this is what was tentatively decided (tho it ended up not mattering)? --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:01, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

  I haven't been involved in previous discussions, but I did make a brief comment above. To me it's a bit like supplying your elected political representative, who you would like to enact legal instruments, with handcuffs and a stun gun. If we are electing people to have that ability, that's fine, but it should be made clear. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 21:32, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not bothered about giving them the tools. I mean really, they can desyop but not be made Administrator? But only if it's understood that it's permanent, it would be unfair to make them then go through an RfA. I agree with Floquenbeam, if we trust them enough to elect them to the committee with the power to ban, etc, then there should be no issue about giving them Admin status. Doug Weller (talk) 21:45, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

As I understand it, some voters may want to have non-admins as Arbs, because they may have a different perspective, and for some maybe because they believe that the admin bit immediately enrols the receiver into a giant anti-them conspiracy. I think a reasonable compromise would be to give Arbs the admin bit, but only for the duration of their term. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:53, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

@Zzuuzz: That makes sense iff you agree with the analogy of arbcom = legislature, and admin = police. This strikes me more like providing them with handcuffs, a handgun, a police car, and access to the crime database, but hesitating to give them a taser and the key to the bathroom. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:22, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• As far as I know, the German Wikipedia had some non-admins elected arbitrators. They were given the sysop bit so they could see deleted revisions etc., but were expected not to use the bit for non-Arbcom related activities. So there is even precedent for this. (And yes, all arbs should be given +sysop). —Kusma (t·c) 22:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• I guess it's not really a WP:BIGDEAL if they're granted an admin bit, but I don't see why they would need one if they are granted OS privileges, which allow them to view deleted content. Sure, they wouldn't be able to block the people they've decided to ban, but they're not technically able to desysop people they've decided to desysop, either, unless they're also a steward or bureaucrat. And not being able to flip the desysop bit hasn't really caused any problems as far as I'm aware. I guess it depends on whether people feel there's value in having actual non-admins on ArbCom, which is more of a social question than a technical one. 28bytes (talk) 23:42, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think it makes any sense to give them the bit automatically. They have the ability to "see" everything that they would possibly need to by way of CheckUser and Oversight, the logic that we should give them a tool they don't need just because they were elected for an unrelated position is lost on me completely. I also don't comprehend the argument that because it's perceived by some that they'd easily pass a RfA, we shouldn't make them? Why not? If they can "easily" do it, then who is it harming to make them? The only appropriate analogy I can think of is that non-admin edit-filter managers have proven they're trusted by the community; so why not automatically give them template editor? Because they don't necessarily need it. If they can prove they need it, then the community will give it to them. Kharkiv07 (T) 23:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see a problem with giving them +admin for the duration of their term as an arb, for all the reasons expressed by others above. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:09, 15 November 2015 (UTC)