Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

This page is for urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

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From ArthasMan

The City Chart High School page has a vandal who constantly changes the name of the founders to goofy names such as pie, NONEXISTANT, etc

From SledDogAC

The information I have added to the webpages is all correct and verifiable. I have provided documentation for what I write, in sharp contrast to AKMask's edits. AKMask doesn't want wikipedia to be neutral. This person has an a pro-Iditarod, pro-musher agenda that he or she only wants the public to know. If wikipedia wants to be held in high regard, it will ban administrators and editors like AKMask who act like dictators to keep facts from being told. I certainly don't deserve to be banned. Here's an example of what I've added and what has been repeatedly deleted by AKMask: (removed due to enormity)

The Rockets

Hello,

I don't know all the rules or procedures of Wikipedia, for that I apologize. However I have attempted to edit the page for "The Rockets" with some but not total satisfaction. One of the definitions you have posted reads as follows:

"Crazy Horse (band) — An American rock and roll band which was originally named "The Rockets".

In fact the Crazy Horse band was only one of at least two bands that have used the name the rockets The Detroit band mentioned was probably more well known as "The Rockets" than The crazy horse band was. While Crazy Horse is certainly notable, They used that name for a year or so, The Detroit Rockets used the name for 10+ years. and can still be heard frequently on Detroit FM stations.

The second, as one of your own admins pointed out, was a well known Band from Detroit. They put out 6 albums total, had several songs that charted and were formed by two of the former members of the "Detroit Wheels" Their singer sang for a period with Ted Nugent. They were the opening act for major bands of the period such as Kiss, ZZ Top, amungst many others. They had some but primarily local Detroit sucess with such hits as "Turn Up The Radio", "OH Well", "Takin it back" and others. They deserve more than a "See also, Detroit Wheels" I would be happy to attempt to do them better justice but I'm not sure I would be the best person to do so given my inexperience of WIKI and all the ins and outs, formatting ect. I will probably never find a reply so it may be better to send replies to [email protected]

Thanks

See the following links:

http://www.johnny-bee.com/ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Street/2818/ http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=3550 http://madrabbit.net/rockets/

Possible sockpuppet of Cute 1 4 u

Hello I believe that this user New York from Flavor of Love may be this indefinatly blocked user Cute 1 4 u. Check this dif [1] and talk page Leroyencyclopediabrown for the possible proof. If I'm wrong on this I appolize in advance but Cute 1 4 u does have a history of sock puppet and ban evasion. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 02:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition I once I commented on that user being suspicious the comments that were made by New York from Flavor of Love were removed. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 02:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but this looks somewhat similar (Cute 1 4 u did once create an account impersonating Raven Symone). I'd file a RFCU. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought about it, thanks I will should I post the findings here or will not not be needed? Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 02:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Any findings in the RFCU should probably be posted here unless it comes back positive and she's indef-blocked right then and there. But it looks somewhat definitive, looking at the user's edit history. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Coredesat. I caught one of hers last week and the writing style is VERY similar to here other socks. I will post the finding once they come in. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 02:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The account *could* be blocked per WP:USERNAME I think... "New York" was in fact the nickname given to a real contestant on the first season of Flavor of Love (generally only the nicknames were used on the show) and thus this name more-or-less falls afoul of the "Names of well-known living people" clause. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

After looking at the userpage and what BoG said, I decided to issue the username block. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it absurd how much people-power is being thrown at stopping an alleged 11 year old female sockpuppeteer from "abusing" Wikipedia as a social network? --  Netsnipe  ►  04:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I take it from your use of quotation marks that you disagree with the characterization of social networking as an abuse of Wikipedia? Choess 06:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, based on this diff and the message the most current IP placed on Leroy's talk page, it's definitely her. She thinks she can hide stuff by deleting it. Ryūlóng 06:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just call me Ed.=) I apologize to everyone who has been trying to contact me overnight. I (obviously) was sleeping. Anyway, I think that Cute 1 4 u should be given one more chance. Two reasons for this. First of all, she doesn't have to keep making new accounts just to prove her point. Second, it removes the hassle of blocking EVERY SINGLE account she makes. We all know she's going to make more and more accounts.--Ed^{talk c E} 12:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, she was blocked for Sockpuppet abuse, impersation, Vandalism and the 11 year old part was just added ammo to the case. And the Check user came up possitive. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 18:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

New York from Flavor of Love and 75.34.176.105 have both been blocked indef as sockpuppets, although I thought that IPs shouldn't be blocked indefinitely. Was there an exception made? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You know that she's going to make a new account anyway! What's the point for all of this hassle? This is a complete waste of our time! If we just give her a second chance on Wikipedia, less time for us working on her case, and one more volunteer Wikipedian.--Ed^{talk c E} 02:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Cute 1 4 u welcomed Starcare, who is likely a puppet of Publicola, who is likely a puppet of Pepsidrinka. Hard punt. Lots of socks involved here.--Scribner 03:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You see? The situation's getting worse. The only solution is to back off or get more admin power.--Ed^{talk c E} 03:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Scribner obviously has something against Pepsidrinka, so I'm taking his comments with more than a pinch of salt. – Chacor 03:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's way too much of a stretch. Ed, sorry, but Cute 1 4 u has just done too much. Yeah, she'll keep coming back, and she'll continue to contact you, and we'll continue to deal with her. If she realizes that she's not helping, then we'll stop blocking, but as long as she continues to contact you and admit that she's who she is, then we have to block her. Ryūlóng 04:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryulong, I'm not the only one she might want to contact. Do you even realize that she could be lurking around Wikipedia right this moment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed (talk • contribs)

75.34.12.156 is another one. Posted on my talk page Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 07:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about this IP you found, but I think we should wait until she does something else before we take action against this IP.--Ed^{talk c E} 22:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It was blocked it was her (The post admited it) Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 00:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

How long is the block? --Ed^{talk c E} 00:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Another Possible one Prple space [email protected] edited with the summary Got to keep it real on edit summary (Dif [2]) a phrase that she used many many times as her qoute. Caught this one while monitoring recent changes Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 00:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

This is Cute 1 4 u. If I had any socks, I'd admit them. I already told you all of them. But Ed is right, I'm trying to prove my point. --75.33.230.133 02:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not Prple space [email protected] , User:Starcare, or User:Publicola. I swear, I don't even know them. However, to prove my point, all i can say is that i have a new account and I am much nicer on that account. Ed is right. --75.33.230.133 02:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I may have found another sock and I requested a check user (Came up again on Recent changes, edits article that were created by other socks with teh same grammer an such) Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 02:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

More or less confrimed the sockpuppet. Autoblock got it (See TV Lover) Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 04:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Cute 1 4 u (or whatever) is going to get me a headache. I tried asking her why she's doing this on her talk page, but she said she's "going to commit 'suiside' ," or something. I don't know... I know this may sound stupid, but can't we block her IP address, so she stops creating these annoying sockpuppets? Cheers! The RSJ - ^SPEAK 03:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

She's on a dynamic IP, SBC, I believe (according to the WHOIS reports). There's not much we can do but keep blocking her new accounts. She's not committing suiside any time soon. Ryūlóng 05:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you please clarify your statement? "Committing suicide"? Is it literal or figurative? --physicq210 05:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Prob Figurative she is 11 years old and has a history of being overly dramatic. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 05:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

She'll be back tomorrow, probably recreating that article of hers. Ryūlóng 05:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Do we have any way to protect the page from being created, say, creating a blank article then fully protecting it? Shadow1 17:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the article she keeps creating? Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 20:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This situation is getting nowhere. In fact, it's getting worse. She will keep making new accounts, and you know that. We must find a permanent solution to this.--Ed^{talk c E} 00:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The soulition is simple keep blocking her. We can't block her IP with out cuasing other issues. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 08:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone contacted SBC about this user? Letting them know that the misbehavior of one 11-year-old kid might lead to Wikipedia blocking their entire DHCP range could be an incentive for them to listen. -- llywrch 19:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

vandalism of Utonagan page

There have been repeated occurences of vandalism on the Utonagan page within Wikipedia. These have implied that Utonagan have wolf content or are related to other wolf-look-a-likes who have wolf content. They have also mentioned behavioral problems which do not exist in the breed, and have even gone to the extent as to imply that they originated from alaskan dogs with wolf content.

As the foremost breeder of Utonagan in the country, these have become more than irritating.

The TCP/IP address of the user known to make these changes is: 212.36.181.65

With thanks

Nadia Carlyle

www.twatha-utonagan.com

Category for middle/elementary schools

I have modified Template:Schools in jurisdiction to remove categories for middle and elementary schools because they encourage articles on nonencyclopedic topics. I am inviting broader review of this, and ideally help speedying (via CSD A7) articles on middle and elementary schools (but not school districts), via currently accepted practice. I don't believe we should have categories that encourage articles that should not be created. --Improv 01:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Schools are inherently controversial on Wikipedia, so only obvious speedy candidates (like attack pages, no-content pages, or patent nonsense) are speediable. Any school entry on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion will attest to that. Schools aren't organizations or individuals, and don't fall under A7. --Coredesat talk! 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

If the template is harmful, nominate it for deletion. Do not modify it so that its useless to the end-user (a navigational template with only one link is rather pointless). That's similiar to page blanking, and is bad. If you oppose the existance of any category, then go to CFD. If you oppose the existance of articles, go to AFD. But, disabling navigational template, is incomprehensible. Also, a7 does not apply to schools, and is designed for articles where there's a clear consensus they shouldn't exist. Please do not try to bypass community discussion and consensus, to remove that which you personally dislike. --Rob 02:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do not do that Improv, there is not a consensus to do so and your assertion that these topics are non-encyclopedic is incorrect. Silensor 04:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Lets' not get off track. Which/what schools are notable is irrelevant to what User:Improv did (see here). The template, is designed to navigate between the different categories in any given jurisdiction. Improv removed all but one of the links to the categories, essentially disabling the entire purpose of the template. Improv's actions are similiar to page blanking, only worse, as it leaves behind something visible and useless, that our readers see (e.g. if I'm in a high school category, a link back to the high school category, with no other links, makes little sense). Discussions for the template, can proceed at TFD, but dont' belong here. Category inclusion goes to CFD, and school inclusion goes to AFD. General school inclusion issues might go to places like Wikipedia:Schools. But Improv's actions in this case, are quite unacceptable, and so far, there's no proper explanation for them. --Rob 02:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Pussy Galore (talk · contribs) behaviour

diffs and behaviour synopsis here:

1. [3]. Removes speedy on article with claim he was right in the middle of improving it.
2. After speedy is put back, He goes to several pages and areas looking for support for removing it even though the individual clearly lacks any remote notability.
3. After being told when a user could remove a speedy [4], he ignores that and removes it with a vague assertion. [5]. No evidence to support it, even though its already been shown on the talk page there is no notability to this person.
4. [6] Makes claims of huge google results and blames it on "data centers", then continues to make circular arguments and dodge the issue of his claim to evidence of the notability of this individual. His claim to improving the article consists of adding vague claims and unverifiable information to the article in question and not producing anything to support his claim here.

Clearly something off here if you follow his pattern here, and comes across to be trolling to me.--Crossmr 04:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed this person around and observed a certain quality to the general pattern of edits that, in the interests of civility, I will describe as often having a certain "under the bridge" quality about them. Metamagician3000 06:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As you can see on my and Pussy Galore's talk pages, I share Metamagician's concern about the user's attitude. But is there anything wrong with removing the speedy tag? The notice box says to remove it if you intend to fix it. We should probably change that if it's not the behavior we want. Also, the user did edit the article minutes before the speedy tag, so the claim of being in the middle is plausible. I agree the vague claims and general behavior are an issue, but an actual magazine (albeit an unsavory one) published an article on the guy, so I don't think opposing the speedy is in itself unreasonable. William Pietri 06:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I gotta agree with Metamagician here. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 10:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've indef blocked this user for egregious trolling. I won't reverse anyone who undoes the block, but you should make sure to look at his or her contributions before you do. In nearly every edit he is simply stirring up, dare I say it, drama. Nandesuka 11:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps if Chairboy did not visit this users page and accuse them of being a sockpuppet, then misquote policy stating that having alternate accounts is against the rules, the drama would have never began. Oddly I predicted this would happen right after they voiced their support for CB, what an odd series of events. So where can I go to ask a user be unblocked and have the decision reviewed? --User:Zer0faults 12:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just in case people are unaware Raymond Lemme had an article written about him in Hustler on his apparent suicide [7] Featured story: Orlando Weekly [8] Indymedia [9] Examiner [10] --User:Zer0faults 12:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Separate issue: why should this user not be blocked for inappropriate user name? --Nlu (talk) 12:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Cause that would allow the user to just make a new name. As you can see by their talk page, Chairboy instead was looking at Sockpuppetry accusations instead. I find this odd that Chairboy and Nan both were involved in the CB discussion and Chairboy picks a fight with Galore and then Nan lays the block for "trolling", even though Chairboy appeared on Galore's page first with accusations, nice vice versa. Shh.. there is no cabal. What did Cyde say, we have to stick together? --User:Zer0faults 13:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

While in principal there is nothing wrong with removing the speedy tag, it started to strike me as odd when this person spent an hour on various talk pages and discussion pages trying to establish he could remove the speedy tag, but after being told he should provide evidence of notability, he dodged the issue and made a vague assertion about the individual and removed it. I had no idea about this other dispute thats going on, but his behaviour here came across to me as someone who was trolling or playing games as I repeatedly requested that he provide this information, and his only response for a long time was to make up some false claim about how he was getting entirely different search results for the same term.--Crossmr 13:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

MaxContent (talk · contribs)may be a sock, see his comments on the AfD[11]. Only edits to that article and the AfD.--Crossmr 13:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

So you think an idef block is ok for a user who was having trouble bringing up information on google to refute the speedy tag? I had trouble as well until I stumbled on the hustler article and found out that its best to leave his middle initial out to help get results, as you see I posted 4 articles on him, that doesnt include the numerous blogs that are not WP:RS or sources I was not really familiar with or I knew were bais like DailyKOS. --User:Zer0faults 13:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There are methods to proving if someone is a sock, An/I is not one of them. If you have an accusations it should have been brought to the appropriate forum, especially if that affected your judgement. --User:Zer0faults 13:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hang on - was it an accusation Chairboy made? It doesn't look like one, it looks like a valid request - If a user has sockpuppets that they used to use, maybe they should make an appreciable effort to be friendly, and declare them. I find it hard to believe she forgot the account names, and even if she has, surely it's not tricky to look at an article's history and note them down? It's only polite. HawkerTyphoon 13:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes it was, Chairboy misquoted WP:SOCK in stating the user was a "malicious sock" because they had edited under multiple accounts before, accounts the users states have always been abandoned before starting a new one. [12] [13]. --User:Zer0faults 13:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Where did I call PG a malicious sock? Care to provide a diff? - CHAIRBOY (☎) 14:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"I'm guessing that despite the language in the beginning of your please that you're actually wanting people to stop accusing you of being a malicious sock, but you don't argue the fact that you are, in fact, a sock puppet." This would be on par with me stating "Copperchair wants people stop calling him a foolish admin, but he does not artugue that he is, in fact, an admin" If this phrasing is permitted please let me know, I will put it to good use. --User:Zer0faults 14:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you please rephrase that in the form of... english? I'm afraid I don't see the accusation. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I can, its your quote, if you feel your writing is not understandable as english, that is really your own problem and hurdles you must overcome in your personal life. There are classes available that will help you write better, I can do some research just let me know if you want me to find some for you. --User:Zer0faults 15:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

(sigh) Once again, I'll ask you to provide a diff of where I accused PG of being a malicious sock. Your english comprehension joke is quite clever, (golf clap), but it still doesn't provide an example of what I'm looking for. You may wish to re-read the excerpt you posted above with this in mind. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Umm we already covered its your own comprehension, hence why you do not understand your own quote ... I am not sure the joke nor the problem. "If you want people stop thinking you cant read english perhaps you should stop admitting your own quotes arent understandable in english." See the jump from a major to be based off a minor. You stated if he didnt want people thinking he was a malicious sock, then he shouldnt have admitted to having been a sock, though actually he admitted no such thing. He admitted to having other accounts in the past. Again let me know if you need me to do that research for you. See you said he admitted to something he in fact did not, see editing under more then onename is different then having edited in the past under a different name, reading comprehension indeed. You can reference WP:SOCK on instances where its ok to edit under multiple accounts at the same time, which was not the case this time. So the user clearly does not fall under the sockpuppet label. --User:Zer0faults 15:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I think I see the nature of your misunderstanding. In the quote above, I said merely that he had admitted to being a sock puppet. You appear to have misread the sentence and interpreted it as me calling him a malicious sock. That's not correct. I've said that there were things he could do to prevent folks from assuming that he's a malsock, but that's certainly not the same as accusing him, no more than telling a teenager "Remember to obey traffic lights" is accusing him of being a criminal. Glad I could be of assistance. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You are as much of help today as you have been ever. I am glad this is all cleared up and we can both tackle the issues in real life we need to handle. --User:Zer0faults 16:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

To Zer0faults: It wasn't so much that he was having trouble finding it, it was his mannerism indicated that he supposedly had the material but wouldn't share it.He didn't really state why he felt the individual was notable, just that he was notable. After another user grew impatient with his constant dodging, he was again asked to provide this supposed evidence of the individual being notable, and instead he said "You guys can argue, I'm going to go improve the article". Which consisted of a bunch of unverified and highly contested claims. He claimed to have gotten huge amounts of hits on google and blamed the discrepency on "data centers" and wouldn't provide a link to his search on which he got huge amounts of hits even though he was asked for it. If someone puts an article up for deletion and does a search and gets a low amount of hits, yet I do a search and get a huge amount, I'm going to link to it to show the difference. This individual failed to do so, and I see this as just another part of his behaviour where he was playing games.--Crossmr 21:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as an indef block goes, that might have been extensive, I was simply posting it here because I viewed his behaviour as suspicious and it truly came across as trolling to me. I never asked for a block, though its possible one might have been in order, as I said I wasn't aware of this individual or his behaviour outside of this incident. I thought it might be appropriate to have an admin or two to see if they saw trolling behaviour there as well, and if so, perhaps look at an appropriate action then (whether it was a block, a warning, etc).--Crossmr 22:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, I did not mean to come off as railing against you. If you view the users talk page there have been admins harrassing him since he came out in favor of CB in an admin to admin dispute. The quick jump to an indef ban over this minor situation is illustrated by that. What I am quite annoyed with is a perfectly valid article got deleted in the process, one that I have provided here 4 sources for, one being a hustler article. You can almost argue that a non porn related article in Hustler is worth more then an article in the newspaper, since a newspaper runs thousands of articles and hustler runs only 2-3 non porn ones a month. The worst part of it all is the article will probably remain deleted because if it was undeleted it would show the user had merit in the first place. I cannot attest to "data center" issues. However if you search for this person with the middle initial included, then without it, you will get a larger result list, then there is the peple who simply called him Ray Lemme. Then there is the few that have the middle initial spelled out. So using quotation marks is quite a problem in this case. --User:Zer0faults 00:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

To which he could of stated, but if you go back and read you will see he didn't. Even when asked. It would have solved the issue to simply provide a link to the search. If I ask someone a question several times, and instead of replying, they dodge the question, make vague claims, or otherwise to muddy the waters, I lose all assumption of good faith, especially when the behaviour continues over a long period of time as it did in this situation. I'm not commenting on the article itself here, but the behaviour of the editor. Also when the only other person around to defend the article was a brand new user who'd made no other edits, you'll forgive me if that doesn't scream sock/meat puppet off the rooftops. If there is a valid article to be had here per WP:BIO, I won't oppose its recreation, however it certainly can't be left in an unreferenced and weasel state that it was in before.--Crossmr 00:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Pussy Galore requested a checkuser on himself ostensibly to prove that his other sockpuppets were not used out of policy. He is now an indefinitely banned user so now his use of those sockpuppets would be to evade a permanent ban. I have requested that the checkuser admins use the information they already obtained to indefinitely ban the sockpuppets as well. --Tbeatty 06:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe that there are dozens of these sock accounts floating around. I have expressed this concern here on a recent AfD. I do not want to falsely accuse these “people” of being a sock, but I could compile a list of them if that is not against any rules. JungleCat talk/contrib 17:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Black billionaires

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but can an administrator please review the deletion debate for Black billionaires and make a judgement call one way or the other? RFerreira 05:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. I closed it as a decided keep, though if I had to opine in it, I might have said "delete". Grandmasterka 05:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reposting request for removal of indefinite block ofKeepthefactsinwikiplease (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)

Hello, AMA advocates Amerique (talk · contribs · logs) and Addhoc (talk · contribs · logs) acting on behalf of Keepthefactsinwikiplease (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) have been unable to determine the supposed violations of WP policies that have merited an indefinite block. The blocking admin Nlu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has indicated s/he would not contest someone else reducing the block, however s/he is not personally inclined to reduce this block. In this context, we would be very grateful, if there was a further review of this block. Thank you,--Amerique 23:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC) Addhoc 10:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reduced this block from indef to 1 month, and it is almost over. I'd remind the editor that continued entry of POV material may be considered vandalism, and the perhaps some of our other million articles may be more interesting to edit than StormPay. — xaosflux ^Talk 05:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Addhoc 11:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the "This user has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia, per ruling of administrators, Jimbo Wales and/or the Arbitration Committee." tag from their userpage accordingly. Maybe a csd to hide the incorrect tag would be beneficial. Daniel.Bryant 09:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

75.3.50.41: Requesting Action

In the 25 hours he has been active on Wikipedia, 75.3.50.41 has caused widespread disruption throughout WikiProject Abortion, including inflammatory and anti-consensus edits/edit warring in pro-choice, Category:Same-sex marriage, Planned Parenthood, Talk:George W. Bush, pro-life, Guttmacher Institute, John Edwards, Marty Meehan and abortion (possibly more), as well as several violations of WP:NPA on various user and article Talk pages. This is my first time at the noticeboard, but I believe a block is in order. Thank you. --BCSWowbagger 05:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I had to step in to stop this IP making edits which amounted to vandalism, and even after that once I went to bed he seems to have continued blatant tendentious editing, which appears to have ended last night with him one revert away from a 3RR violation on pro-choice. He's stopped editing now, but I suspect this isn't the last of him. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 14:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

He's back at it as I type this, making the exact same edits as before. ​​​​​​Auburn​​​​​​​​​​​Pilot​​​​​​ 16:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The user has shown no attempt to compromise and reasons out that his/her view has to be said or no views must be said. The user disagrees that NPOV exists and his hypocrisy between labeling pro-choice not a social justice category while pro-life is shows the user's obvious bias. Gdo01 17:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for 48 hours, anon only block. KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

User:BADMINton

Can someone review his behaviour please? He has been giving people vandalism tags in content disputes, and when I asked him about this, he became rather hostile User_talk:Blnguyen#Personal_attacks.3F, so I would like someone else to have a look in case that I am too involved to act impartially, or at least give the impression of partiality. His posts since then leave me wondering about whether he is serious about editing here. In one edit summary he refers to User:Hornplease as "Horny", for instance. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 08:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Samir issued a final warning. Guy 09:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Despite explaining WP:3RR and WP:BLP to him, he continuosly broke 3RR by adding unreferenced and potentially libelous commentry. I've reported him to WP:AN/3RR. --Ragib 09:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The ban is unjustified and User:Ragib should peruse the policy (written in English) once again. Which text was "unreferenced"? Good Bloke 13:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

CheckUser shows that this new user is BADMINton using a sockpuppet to evade his block. Dmcdevit·t 01:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Though the jibes at Hornplease were quite unwarranted, the trouble with User:Ikonoblast (formerly User:Holywarrior are not unique to Badminton. At least 6 users have been insulted, cheated, and affected negatively by Ikonoklast's actions. Soft discipline should be given to Badminton.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggest community ban of User:Mccready from editing Pseudoscience articles for one month

Mccready (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has exhausted the patience of many editors of many pseudoscience articles. I suggest a one month ban from editing any pseudoscience article. The ban can be enforced by any administrator with a 31 hour block. Mccready is encouraged to use the talk pages of these articles to make suggestions about ways to improve the article. Many editors of these articles recognize his knowledge on the topics but can not deal with his insistence on editing the article precisely his way. This includes many editors that share his skeptical view about these topics. The other alternatives are a longer block to try and make him understand the need for consensus editing or an arbitration case. The community needs to act now because these articles are losing good editors out of frustration with having to deal with Mccready. [14] I'm encouraging Mccready and the editors of these articles to comment here. Thoughts and other suggestions welcome? FloNight 16:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be some backstory if I am not mistaken between FloNight and this user and with SlimVirgin[15]. Seems FloNight supported a block that Mccready was unhappy with at one point. --User:Zer0faults 16:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify; Flo's proposal here followed a request from me on her Talk page that she review Mccready's edits on one particular day; I approached her because I judged that she would be cool and knowledgeable in this matter.Gleng 15:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been somewhat involved in the article and while I agree with a fair bit of Mccready is trying to do he has been stubborn and uncivil. However the article that is the focus of this (Pseudoscience) as a whole is such a complete mess with so much edit warring that I'm not sure Mccready is any worse than many others. No strong attitude either way. JoshuaZ 16:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please ask him, if no penalty is laid out, to stop using popups for reverting. Its creating a page where it looks like he is just reverting to revert, there are no edit summaries in most cases stating what he is objecting to, that kind of reverting may bother other users. --User:Zer0faults 16:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lot of reverting on all the pseudoscience and related articles for a long time now. Lots of disputed tagging of Category:Psudoscience on various articles, see for example Category:Alternative medicine. This is one of those simmering disputes and I don't think a block of one editor will resolve it. If anything is to be done it should go through RfC at least. --Salix alba (talk) 16:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Using popup for revering non-vandalism isn't a good idea. But this hint is even missing from Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups. --Pjacobi 16:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reversion is clearly warned against in WP:DR, however, which Mccready has been made aware of repeatedly. --Jim Butler^(talk) 18:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not the point. It's the question, whether popups reverting should be restricted to vandalism reverts, as are admin button reverts. --Pjacobi 18:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. My point is that reverting is generally discouraged except in the case of vandalism (see also Help:Reverting), so the specific case of popups is no different. WP:ES talks about the need for leaving some sort of edit summary that's helpful to other editors. Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation_popups describes an option that lets the user be prompted to add an edit summary under popupRevertSummaryPrompt. Mccready's edit history for 11 Sept. 2006 does show a number of reverts using popups, some (not all) of which closely follow discussion on the talk page; edit summaries in such cases would help casual readers understand that you are indeed discusssing. Mccready, if you adjust your monobook.js file you should be able to use popups and leave an informative edit summary, which will improve others' assumption of your good faith. --Jim Butler^(talk) 19:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with this ban - I have tried to reason with Mccready in the past over pseudoscience categorisation and it is not easy to do, but since his previous ban he has not caused any conflict over this particular issue. I hope such a ban will help him to change his attitude to other editors. --apers0n 17:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I support the ban too. I had a similar problem with McCready some months ago, and I'm disappointed to see it has continued with other editors. People have been very patient with McCready, and FloNight and Friday have both tried to help him, so I feel we should trust their judgment about how to proceed. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hmmm. I reviewed a sample of recent edits and found a mix of good and indifferent. For example, removing "Reflexology Works - Case Studies As To Why It Works" from reflexology is perfectly acceptable by me. Perhaps we should instead ban all the fans of these pseudosciences who keep inserting special pleading? Guy 17:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

He's exhausted the patience of many there. I support it as well. FeloniousMonk 18:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Support, though a "community ban" of one month in a specific subject matter isn't really a community ban, IMO. --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I don't recall any personal run-in with McCready... I only know of him based on his edits, his comments and other people's comments about him. I just took the time to read through all of McCready's talk pages (including the archived ones). I see a lot of complaints lodged against him by a great deal of frustrated editors. I also took a look at his recent edits and took note of when he was recently blocked. In each recent instance of being blocked, McCready was warned against using pop-ups to do mass reverts. Despite these warnings, he went right back to doing mass reverts with the pop-up tool. He was also warned about making personal attacks or as we call them here ad hominem. Yet, McCready ignores these pleadings and continues to insult other editors and push his POV at the expense of civility. There have been many attempts to see if he would change his ways, but each time he disappoints us. I think we are done testing him to see if he will learn. It's time for the rest of us to learn. We can try this 10-day ban, but personally I don't think it's enough. TheDoctorIsIn 18:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Weak support. I still perceive some uncivility and uncollaborativeness. He's trending positive lately, using Talk pages to discuss more popup reverts than in the past, but still not all. (He says he uses popups to compensate for a slow dialup connection, but as I noted above, Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation_popups shows how to leave an edit summary when using popups). Smart editor, underestimates others' intelligence and good faith, needs to work on collaborating. --Jim Butler^(talk) 19:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support with the chance for mediation. Wikipedia is a collaborative environment and he has repeatedly decided not to collaborate. You can tell by his edit history that he trolls for places to tag his opinions, mostly by deletions or adding pseudoscience to the category section. I can’t recall anytime he has added to the quality of a topic. The way he uses WP is not constructive and is disruptive to the whole process. I don’t care what he adds or detracts from the topic pseudoscience. That page is nonsense and full of unneeded negativity. A ban from that page by itself would be counterproductive. If he isn’t willing to change his editing, by contributing instead of “trolling and tagging” than I suppose a ban from the site, and not just a topic, would be in order. The admin needs to also make sure there aren’t any sock puppets coming from his IP address. Thanks for asking for my input. --Travisthurston 20:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm inlined to support as well, although not all of Mccready's edits have been bad. However, he is quite disruptive, so a ban of some length is warranted. •Jim62sch• 21:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. Uncivil. No Discussion. However I agree with the general argument that it would be useful to come to a categorisation of many of the articles selected by Mccready. Sholto Maud 21:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Strong Support One month. Is that all? His long history of polarizing articles and editors has wasted the time of many good editors. He has used heavy-handed edits and reverts with no discussion resorting to uncivil edit summaries. I have personal history with this editor and he already has been blocked several times. This list would be shorter if instead we listed those editors who haven't had problems with him. Steth 00:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. Mccready is always spot on with his targeted edits and I appreciate the heads-up for a weak spot, but his correction edit is usually just as POV in the opposite direction. His POV is important as it keeps everythng honest, but having to continually revert is disruptive and we can spend days on one sentence to get consensus then Mccready will come back and start it all over again with the same edit. Again the process comes to a stop. As long as his talk page comments remain civil and he is able to avoid ad hominem language, I would apprectiate his help. Maybe this way he can actually develop a rapport with editors that will be constructive. --Dematt 17:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. I find him to be stubborn, uncivil, uncooperative and a bully. Aside from attacking and stalking editors, he also makes wild claims such as he is the only one in all of Wikipedia who is responsible enough to decide what constitutes a good edit. Another editor frustrated with him said he has an intractable sense of Know-It-All-ism. I can't speak for all of his edits, but on the topics which I edit, I can certainly affirm that he doesn't know it all. None of us do. What he is good at is "wikilawyering" his way out of the many blocks and warnings which he has received in his short time here. I believe that he has insulted and bullied several Wikipedians and Admins to the point where they give up on WP entirely. I have pointed out to him that there are a great deal of editors who are annoyed with him... hoping that realizing this would cause him to reform his ways. It has not. I have gone through the trouble of listing out all of the pop up reverts that he did in one 24-hour period, hoping that laying it out for him would help he realize the havoc he creates. That didn't work apparently. I had also hoped that his 1, 3, and 5 day blocks would help him see the light. Clearly these haven't had any effect on him either. It's high time we send a much stronger message by way of much stonger penalty. A one month block from WP across the board seems entirely warranted here. Call me a bleeding-heart, but I think McCready is still capable of reform. Levine2112 17:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Okay Levine2112, you're "a bleeding-heart" .....;-) I am not as optimistic. -- Fyslee 21:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support And if issues keep going make it longer. This editor has exhausted the community patience. Æon ^{Insanity Now!}_EA! 15:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Shell Kinney's block of ScienceApologist

I would like to question the block of ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) by Shell Kinney (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). The block reason was "POV pishing, removal of sourced information", neither of which are objective or valid block reasons. As far as I can ascertain ScienceApologist was simply editing an article on one of those fringe scientists to be more in line with mainstream scientific thought; rather than being "POV-pushing", this appears to me to be more "NPOV-pushing". As for "removal of sourced information", just because something is sourced doesn't automatically mean that it indefinitely merits inclusion in an article. Articles grow too long, they need to be trimmed, or maybe better information can be found ... regardless, removing some information is a natural part of the editing process, and does not appear to me to be a reason why someone should be blocked. Unless there are some objections I would like to go ahead and unblock ScienceApologist, as it appears to me that this block was inappropriate. I would also caution Shell Kinney to use more care in the future with her admin tools rather than simply blocking someone because she disagrees with him. [apparently there's more to this than it first appears] Your thoughts? --Cyde Weys 17:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

A Wikipedia:Personal_attack_intervention_noticeboard#ScienceApologist_.28talk_.E2.80.A2_contribs.29 came through the personal attack intervention noticeboard - it wasn't really in the right place, but after a day of looking into the issue it appeared there was a real problem with ScienceApologist pushing a POV on the article, up to and including removed sourced info and even replacing it with negative information from a dubious source. He's continued to edit war insisting on these changes and talk page discussion hasn't done much to help - in addition to incivil edit summaries, gems like Just because something is verifiable does not mean that we must include it [16] when presented with information verifying the subject is a working "visting astronomer" at an observatory as opposed to his preferred "went on a visit to" said observatory. Unfortunately, the pattern outlined at the report, noted in the RfC and evident on the discussion page is that ScienceApologist is after the truth and discarding verifiability in the process. I left a note asking him to stop the behavior - he responded with a straw man on my talk and promptly continued his crusade.

So, in short, I've blocked him for 24 hours for tendentious editing, disrupting the article to push a POV and consistently violating WP:V on the article. His response was a fairly typical "heavy-handed" admin "ignorant" of the situation.... In any case, block here for review/adjustment/comment. Thanks. Shell ^babelfish 17:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You should have put that in the block reason then. As I currently see it, we have some people with strong beliefs on either side of this issue, and they need to meet somewhere in the middle through discussion and consensus. That can't be done if we simply block one side. However, if ScienceApologist is repeatedly reverting back to his preferred version and refuses to discuss, that obviously is an issue, and that should have been in the block reason and if it continues it should go to arbitration. --Cyde Weys 18:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I completely screwed the pooch on the blocking summary - I'll be more careful with it in the future. In my defense, I was writing this up here before the block was questioned, but that doens't excuse a sloppy summary. For the record, I'm not involved in the dispute and these folks seriously need to be using dispute resolution. Shell ^babelfish 18:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine. I'm not going to unblock now ... it does sound like it was deserved. Glad I decided to discuss first rather than revert another admin's actions :-D Cyde Weys 18:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Which specific edits does shell consider POV here? Considering that the filing was made by an established pseudoscience POV pusher, I have to question it's validity. I've reviewed SA's recent edits presented there and though he's been blunt, I see no evidence of "blantant" POV pushing or personal attacks. I consider this block questionable and too late (over 24 hrs after reported at WP:) to be anything other than punitive (blocking is not meant as punishment) and therefore am unblocking him. Please look a little deeper into those making the filings first next time. FeloniousMonk 18:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, the removal of sourced content he disagrees with and the addition of criticism based on a highly dubious comment on a blog entry - note that one of the statements he removed was from the Chicago Tribune of which he says "Chicago Tribune not a decent critical source." [17]; you might also note the heading change. If this is pseudoscience, it should be easy to come up with reliable sources to dispute the theories; there shouldn't be any need for underhanded tactics. Or despite two references to the contrary, continuing to insist "visiting astrologer" (connotation priviledges at the observatory) be replaced with "was asked to visit"[18]? Or maybe removing background information calling it "cruft"? [19].

Basically, there's a wealth of things to choose from and attacking the character of the person reporting the problem isn't solving anything. The block was for his most recent complete reversion to his preferred version, not about the report on the noticeboard - please read the ongoing discussion linked above. If you disagree with the block, that's fine, but please, don't pretend this is acceptable behavior.Shell ^babelfish 19:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

In science, avoid citing the popular press (from WP:RS). SA stating that Chicago Tribune not a decent critical source is totally in line with policy and precedents. --Pjacobi 19:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Wouldn't this also make a comment on a blog a similarly poor source? Shell ^babelfish 19:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Lerner doesn't look to be a mainstream scientist, I don't see the issue with saying as much. That the person who filed the report has a long history of promoting pseudoscience at the expense of actual science is relevant, particularly when WP processes are misused to gain the upper hand over his opponents in simple content disputes, as his subsequent comments indicate [20] [21]. FeloniousMonk 19:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You're skirting the issue - this isn't about whether or not someone is a mainstream scientist. Again, I ask that you read the information provided. I reviewed the dispute for 24 hours before issuing a warning on the situation - my response had nothing to do with who initiated the report and everything to do with the actual behavior involved. Both parties should be involved in more dispute resolution. Its worth noting that the RfC I pointed out earlier had several people coming to the same conclusion about ScienceApologist's edits that I did. He pushes a mainstream POV and actively seeks to discredit those he considers fringe - in and of itself, not so much of a problem, but when it leads to constant reverting, removing verified information and being forced to support your opinion with some random comment on a blog, then it becomes an issue. Hopefully everyone involved can work on developing a consensus and remember that verifiability doens't equal truth. Shell ^babelfish 19:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV says "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." Learner's work is viewed as pseudoscience. Thus SA when "He pushes a mainstream POV" is simply applying WP:NPOV. Again, where's the blockable offense? That SA "actively seeks to discredit those he considers fringe" is an assumption on your part. Much of the debate on fringe science takes place on blogs, as with intelligent design. FeloniousMonk 19:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As FeloniousMonk and this additional caveat:

Whereas we are guided by WP:BLP to stay on the safe side in biographies, at Eric Lerner (and rather typical for not-so-mainstream-scientists) there is not only biography proper to be found, but also his scientific views and theories. I'd say that such sections have to take as much (of course sourced) criticisms by as a sepaarte article would do.

Pjacobi 18:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll add that I'm totally surprised that ScienceApologist has been blocked. I know him as probably the best editor of articles on physics we have on Wikipedia. It's possible that he went too far fighting over scientific truth (but even here I can understand his zeal as a scientist myself) but after looking into the article, I can confirm that he was as right as one can be. Whatever Eric Lerner does, it's not mainstream science. Friendly Neighbour 19:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Iantresman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a history of POV pushing bizarre pseudophysics unsupported by research, and is not above wikilawyering or sailing close to WP:NPA himsef. Mr Apologist, who I know is a proper physicist and should be congratulated for remaining relatively calm in the face of such nonsense. — Dunc|☺ 19:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can not believe some of the comments here. ScienceApologist consistently removed positive verifiable information from the article, as I described, and has done so before [22].

• If the Chicago Tribune comment was removed because it is "not a decent critical source", why did ScienceApologist insist on including (a) information in another article sourced from Creationist Web sites (self published) [23] (b) Add the "David Spergel" criticism,[24], whose only source appears to be a comment on someone's blog [25] which fails Wikipedia's standards on reliable sources.
• It is irrelevent whether Lerner is a mainstream scientists or not, he still deserves respect and an NPOV write-up.
• I do not have "a history of POV pushing bizarre pseudophysics". Just because a subject is not mainstream does not make it pseudophysics, and nor is mentioning such subjects POV pushing as described therein.
• And what do you mean that "Mr Apologist, who I know is a proper physicist". ScienceApologist is an anonymous, unaccountable editor. Eric Lerner has about 50 peer reviwed papers to his credit.

So we have one Admin (FeloniousMonk) calling me a "well-known pseudoscience POV pusher",[26] and someone else (above) accusing me of "a history of POV pushing bizarre pseudophysics unsupported by research". Surely not discrediting comments? Thank goodness I didn't contribute to the ariticles on Gay/Black rights or Communism. --Iantresman 19:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

A few points. First, Iantresman's history is not intrinsically relevant to the matter at hand. If there is a general problem with Ian's behavior an RfC should be filed or some similar behavior attempted. That said, from reading the above, the only thing I can see from SA's behavior that is at all problematic is including a blog entry. Note that in some cases we have considered blogs to be acceptable when they are written by people in the relevant field whose names and associations are clear and publically acknowledge the blogs as their's. While, I don't think the blog in question obviously meets that standard the attempted citation of a source which does not meet WP:RS hardly seems block worthy. Now as a separate matter-Ian's report- I don't see any strong issues of personal attack problems. Ian should bear in mind that WP:NPA applies against Wikipedia editors. Calling the subject of an article a "woo-woo" does not as far as I can see even lead to a WP:BLP problem. The only other issue here might therefore be some minor civility concerns. None of this however is block worthy. Furthermore, the only remaining matter of concern-the blog entry-is not a matter for a personal attack report. If FM is correct that Iantres has a history of these sorts of erroneous reports then I would strongly caution him not to do so again. JoshuaZ 20:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please compare Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Reddi 2. (If I remember everything right) in relation to that issue, SA got blocked by User:Ed Poor and User:Jossi, nearly left the project and stopped contributing under his real name. RfAr result completely cleared SA. --Pjacobi 20:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Trying to come back from very far afield and all the attempts to twist this around, the block was about completely discarding WP:V and sustained edit warring over a ridiculously long period of time. I asked very, very nicely for him to stop with the edit warring and was on my way to ask the same of the other major party (who, by the way, I would have blocked too if he wholesale reverted again). To clarify, there's no concern about mainstream POV being the prominent POV in the article. I can't see why ScienceApologist is insisting on a crap source just to get one more criticism in there (at 7, the article is hardly bankrupt of mainstream opinions). I don't understand why he's falling back on original research (his opinion of what a log means) to get a certain turn of phrase he wants. Above all, I'm not sure why this is worth constant edit warring instead of using the dispute resolution process. The aim, admirable - the methods, sloppy. If someone felt it wasn't block worthy, that's fine and why I offered other admins to change it at will but can we please stop pretending there's some moral high ground just because he has good intentions? Shell ^babelfish 21:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't argue with that, and I wouldn't - because I agree with it. --Crimsone 21:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• JoshuaZ, I would humbly like to note the context. I agree that a blog-sourced entry by itself is no reason to block a user. This is about bias. To claim that a positive comment sourced to the Chicago Times is "not descent", AND, then to replace it with a negative comment which is either unsourced, or sourced to a blog, is surely more than just an issue of reliable sources.
• In this context, of removing positive information (other examples [27] [28] [29]), to further remove the NASA-verifiable statement that Lerner was a "visiting astronomer" [30] should be taken how? Where is the ambiguity, where is the contention? --Iantresman 21:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree with JoshuaZ and FeloniousMonk. Nothing warranting a block. Also I suggest that in the future when you plan to block well established editors that you note it on AN/I for review before you block. This gives the community a chance to provide background information and context before the block. FloNight 21:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Flo, I did talk to other administrators about the issue - in fact, it came up twice in the past 24 hours. Even though other's felt that SAs behavior was getting a bit over the top, I still posted it here for even more opinions. You can look back through this board and see there's only been one other time I've blocked for disruption -- I don't use the tools lightly. I checked and cross-checked; people obviously disagree. It happens sometimes and its why I invite people to recind/change the block if they feel strongly different. Not once have I suggested SA should be reblocked or that FM can't view the situation differently, all I've said is that this was about breaking policies, not some arbitrary reasoning I pulled out of thing air. Shell ^babelfish 22:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Shell, blocking a well established editor with many good edits should be a very last resort. There needs to be wide community support. I'm suggesting that a full discussion with the community that includes the editor needs to occur before the block. Editors decide to leave the project or take prolonged breaks due to controversial blocks. If that happens in this case it will be a great loss to the project. FloNight 23:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Several editors have pointed out a misunderstanding of my comments here, so I wanted to clear it up. I am not defending the block - other administrators felt it wasn't warranted and it was reversed - done deal. The only thing I have a problem with is being accused of blocking because of bias, to gain the upperhand in a content dispute or out of some kind of malice. I also disagree with some editor's interpretation of SA's edits - I don't believe that unsourced edits or original research should be used for the "good" of any article. But again, other administrators felt this wasn't block worthy and reversed it and I have absolutely no problem with that. Shell ^babelfish 10:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

---

This dispute is created by the self-contradictory text of WP:NPOV in lacking clear and useable definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV. And in the absence of clear definitions of "bias," POV, and NPOV, packs of editors roam, ripping from Wikipedia whatever cited NPOV their dogma does not like. No administrator should have to justify blocking someone for deleting cited NPOV from a Wikipedia page. The explicit policy text of WP:NPOV should state that deleting cited NPOV from a page is wrong without replacing that scholar's POV with some clearer, cited, and published statement of another similarly partial scholar. After all, our job here is to "represent all significant views fairly and without bias" against any significant view. The murky and self-contradictory text of WP:NPOV must be rewritten to support NPOV--which is to "represent all significant views fairly and without bias." --Rednblu 22:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there a point to this trolling, Rednblu? KillerChihuahua^?!? 00:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that you cut the above ad hominem and this response to my TalkPage where I would be glad to discuss that topic with you when I have time, my friend. And the question remains: What shall we do to rewrite the WP:NPOV page to have clear and useful definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV? --Rednblu 02:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

So there is no point to your trolling? Trying to avoid the question by accusing me of a personal attack where there was none is not an answer. KillerChihuahua^?!? 09:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The self-contradictory text of the WP:NPOV page supports both of the opposing actions of Shell and SA.

• On the one hand, the WP:NPOV page requires that: To be NPOV, the Eric Lerner page "must represent all significant views fairly and without bias." Shell supported this wording by preventing the bias against the POV of the cited NASA announcement that SA deleted. SA violated this wording by biasing the page by removing the significant POV of the cited NASA announcement and inserting in its place the differing POV of the ESO list of visiting parties and inviters.

• On the other hand, the WP:NPOV page also contains the wrongly worded statement that "When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed." SA supported this wording by removing the bias he detected in the NASA announcement and fixing it with the citation to the ESO visitor list. Shell violated this wording by preventing the fix that suited SA's detection of bias.

The underlying difficulty is that no significant portion of the Wikipedia community wants to clarify the definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV in the WP:NPOV page. This is like a community not wanting clear and self-consistent definitions for what red, yellow, and green mean on the traffic lights at the intersections; they would rather enforce their own definitions at their own favorite intersections. Consequently in the absence of clear and self-consistent definitions, at any intersection and Wikipedia page where there are extreme POV biases among the editors, there is an on-going power struggle among whoever is there at the time over what red, yellow, green, "bias," POV, and NPOV mean. In the ensuing mêlée, rather than good and clear encyclopedia pages, the results are pages in the unclear, mangled, and POV state of New anti-semitism, ..., .... In these early days, the Eric Lerner page has not grown to the New anti-semitism length yet. But all the necessary power-struggles over the unclear and self-contradictory text in the WP:NPOV page are there already with enough energy to make it blossom into another sorry page if every POV and bias does its duty under "When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed," which is the duty to fix the bias that bias detects. For all of the above, reasons, we need to work together to develop clear and self-consistent definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV in the text of the WP:NPOV page. What do you think would be a good first step? --Rednblu 18:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist responds

There's a few things I'd like to get straight:

1. Shell Kinney came into this situation very dictatorially and did not discuss her actions civilly with the other editors.
2. She did not try to ascertain what the conflict was and did no research into the history of the conflict.
3. She unilaterally blocked me for what she now admits was a different offense than the one in her blocking summary.
4. She did not follow the procedures outlined on the Wikipedia page that describes what to do if a block is controversial.
5. She did not get any input from any other editors or administrators before unilaterally blocking.
6. She did not warn me specifically that I was going to be blocked on my talkpage before she blocked me, despite my explanation on her talkpage regarding the matter.
7. She has made up false accusations about me (such as that I've been a consistent edit warrior in this article for a year)
8. Right now it seems that the entire issue is based on anger over a single sourced blog as a poor source? I'm not sure what blog in question we are dealing with, but if it is the preposterous universe blog, this is a well-respected blog by a rather prominent astronomer at the University of Chicago.

Furthermore:

1. There is no indication that she looked at talkpage/archives of the affected article.
2. There is no indication that she looked at the links I made on her talkpage about this conflict.
3. There is no indication that she considered whether or not this was a content dispute and whether it was appropriate to block over such a dispute.

As such, I think that Shell Kinney needs to take a good hard look at her shoot-first-ask-questions-later administration tactics. This does not look to me like the actions of an administrator who is working to defuse conflicts. Right now I'm just about as upset as I was back in the Ed Poor days, and we're still dealing with the fallout of that nonsense nearly one year later. I feel very disrepsected by this Wikipedian.

I would like an apology from Shell Kinney for executing this action without doing the proper legwork or research to justify it. Or at the very least an explanation of the points I outlined above. I hope she understands the gravity of these issues.

--ScienceApologist 21:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

1. I left a very civil message in which I explicitly stated that you might be blocked and pointed you to a list of the exact edits that were a concern.[31]
2. There were more than 12 hours from the initial report [32] erroneously filed on WP:PAIN and my note on your talk page during which time I researched the dispute.
3. My fault on the block summary; I was trying to write a better explanation here and should have done better in the block summary. It was not different, just horribly unclear.
4. I'd like to know which of the points about controversial blocks I failed to follow.
5. Yes, actually, I talked to administrators about it last night and again this morning.
6. See answer to #1
7. You said it had been a year [33]. If you were referring to the extended dispute on other articles and not just this one, I apologize for misunderstanding the remark.
8. This is about the blog, the original research and the edit warring.

You did leave me a note and yet 10 minutes later, you blanketly reverted yet again which forced the issue. You rightly pointed out that you were not guilty of personal attacks; I had already made this point when the report was originally made and the note I left you certainly wasn't about personal attacks but the policy problems in some of your changes. I understand where you're trying to get with the article and its an admirable goal. I've mentioned elsewhere that your work keeping junk from becoming respectable by virtue of being listed here is remarkable. However, all the good work in the world doesn't entitle you to take shortcuts - you shouldn't use poor sources, you shouldn't use original research to justify wording changings and edit warring never gets anyone anywhere. If it wasn't block worthy, then it wasn't - that's preceisly why I posted here with the request for other admins to review and change at will.

Sadly, it seems that people are assuming an incredible amount of bad faith on my part. Shell ^babelfish 22:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You left a "very civil message"?! Sorry, you come across as incredibly condescending. You may not think that you are, but that's how you come across.

One wishes you would consider this

• Us scientists, we have put a fair amount of work into our degrees. Please respect the dedication
• Most everyone who has edited any science article will have come across a kook and his theory. The kook hasn't done got half the clue the bona-fide scientist has. We all have a very very short fuse as a result. Note: this isn't advocating against NPOV; this is saying that only with appropiate training one can put the kooky theory into proper context.
• Next time you bump into such a conflict do get help from someone familiar with this issus. None of us are paid to edit here. Dr Zak 23:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Dr Zak, then perhaps you'd appreciate more than most, that having put in a fair amount of work into degrees and research, that to have one specific editor (ScienceApologiest) remove your status as a physicist removed [34], to have your awards removed [35], to have your positive criticisms removed AND replaced with negative ones [36], taken TOGETHER, at the very least appear to be biased, if not bordering on an attempt to discredit certain individuals.
• These particular edits do not require any knowledge as a scientists, just the ability to read sources. --Iantresman 09:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Since you didn't respond to my points in turn, I'll bullet the list with my response:

• Your "civil message" was responded by me in turn on your talkpage offering my opinion on the matter. The next correspondence I received from you was a block. No discussion, no attempt to figure out what my editting was about, you just simply blocked me. Warning that a user might be blocked should be accompanied by a reason. The reason you provided was incorrect as you later admitted and it is still nebulous yet as you will say on other points on this list.
• Your actions leading up to the block amounted to you making a unilateral decision based on a list of links User:Iantresman provided. If you had asked around about this user, you would have found a number of administrators who would have cautioned you against taking him at face-value. I even referred you to a mediation cabal case to illustrate the point. As far as I can ascertain you did not research this user at all, nor did you look for the context of the edits he wrote down on the wrong page.
• You did not engage in discussion with me, nor, it seems, did you do your homework in regards to this conflict. You simply preached and made pronouncements. This is not conduct becoming of an administrator.
• Please show me where you talked to administrators about this before the block and where another administrator looked at the controversy and recommended you block me.
• The dispute with Iantresman was ongoing for more than a year, but it was not about the Eric Lerner article. Check the links I made on your talkpage for more. This is illustrative of the problems I have with your advocacy. You are not careful in your characterizations of history. It's very easy to check because everything at Wikipedia is logged.
• I reiterate that the blog in question is a perfectly legitimate source which you could have read about on the talkpage. The Preposterous Universe is written by a well-respected research astronomer at the University of Chicago. It is not an inappropriate inclusion especially because the scientific community basically ignores Eric otherwise (by his own admission according to a letter he signed).
• There is no original research on Eric Lerner's page. Absolutely none. I challenge you to point to some.
• If you wanted, I would have gladly provided you with the context for the links that Ian made. With context, none of the edits are evidence of POV-pushing, original research (I have no idea where that came from), nor edit-warring beyond the scope of this particular content dispute (see next bullet point).
• For edit warring, there is a strict 3RR policy meant to address it as well as dispute resolution processes. You did not refer the conflict to any of these before blocking. I take this to be a punative action then targetted specifically against me.
• I believe that "Edit warring" is in this case, strongly in the eye of the beholder. The conflict between myself, User:Iantresman and User:Elerner to me is a content dispute and I regard the edits by User:Elerner to be in conflict with WP:AUTO (an issue totally ignored by you). You'll also note that Iantresman hasn't offered an edit to the article since 19 July.
• I see no attempt by you to discuss what the dispute was about on the talkpage of the article in question.

I am saddened that you will not offer an apology. This is beginning to remind me a lot of the Ed Poor case.

--ScienceApologist 23:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

On the surface, this block appears questionable; I would'nt have imposed it myself. That said, I am concerned by SA's seeming mission to discredit Plasma cosmology (in general) in favour of the Hot Big Bang Model. Last I've heard, Hannes Alfvén was not a psuedoscientist, and HBB Modelers are still struggling to account for Dark Matter. Perhaps I missed crucial new findings that would work toward diminishing from the criticisms waged by many PCs that it remains yet another convinient HBBM deus ex machina, one ostensibly in service of deus... El_C 23:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hannes Alfvén is most certainly not the issue. Eric Lerner is the issue. I don't know where exactly El C is getting his sources from, but dark matter is a feature, not a problem to account for in the Big Bang. Most of the PC criticisms stem from the early 1990s (as outlined in the non-standard cosmology page) before precision measurements, redshift surveys, and supernovae observations honed us in on ΛCDM. But this is hardly the point. Discrediting PC is only done using verifiable, well-cited, and reliable sources. It isn't done by myself or any other editor. --ScienceApologist 23:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

DM (cold or otherwise) appears to remain a pretty convinient presuppository feature of the Model, a feature which, since it dosen't interact with anything in the material universe, cannot (yet?) be conclusively proven to exist, but just happens to fit perfectly with HBBM, accounting for the vast majority of mass in the universe. Criticisms of theistic-driven agenda have no basis, you're saying? El_C 00:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

El C, you're out of contact with the workings of science. Physics will setup models giving formula which are in agreement with current observations and hopefully predict future observerations. ΛCDM has an excellent score in this disciplines. The question of "why" is left to theists, kooks and popular science journalists. Newton started this trend, you know? --06:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

That dosen't really respond to anything that I say. Regardless, I do think that it is too early stage of human development to speak so confidently about the history/origin of the universe, as gospel truth. El_C 07:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No scientific theory is gospel truth, that's your misunderstanding. But it has to be usefull. That's the difference between successfull theories and the trash heap of refuted oned. --Pjacobi 07:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

You confuse how I nuance the manner in which the model is pushed (i.e. you won't get any grant money if you don't pledge to it) to a fundamental misunderstanding of how scientific models work. That is a misunderstanding. Many models can have useful applications but that does not mean that the theory should override all other attempts at explanation. Discounting the ideological impetus behind the HBBM strikes me as rather naive. El_C 19:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Getting back to the point

Why is this thread about content? This is supposed to be about administrator actions on the basis of the information available at the time. Shell's actions were entirely reasonable when s/he had an editor (who it turns out is experienced enough to have known better) casting aside his/her express concerns and plunging on regardless.

As it happens, I entirely agree with ScienceApologist's arguments about why the blogger is worth listening to and why a generalist book review is not a guide to good science. And I can understand that he was heavily engaged in the article and annoyed by being asked to justify his actions. None of which makes it OK to blow off an admin trying to deal with a legitimate concern. If SA had paused in his editing while explaining to Shell: or, better, elucidated the arguments in the article for the benefit of Jo Reader (I follow the blog link and see "Posted by Sean". Great, who he?), we'd all be winners. In fact, maybe the article can still have such an elucidation. So can we all stop yelling and go home now? And have the content dispute on the article talk page? Y'all drive safely, now :-) JackyR | Talk 15:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Law of unintended consequences

User:Elerner is back rewriting his biography here at Wikipedia. I tried to illustrate the conundrum here. The actions of this administrator has definitely made the conflict more complicated and protracted, in my opinion. --ScienceApologist 23:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply by Eric Lerner

As the subject of this attack by Science Apologist(Joshua Schroeder), I think I need to comment. I am also requesting that SA not only be blocked from my article, but that the article is again protected in the same version that it was formerly protected...

The issue here is that SA is accusing me of lying and using false information to do it. I was a Visiting Astronomer at ESO in February 2006. I have so stated in several places. Not a big deal, but a fact.

SA has repeatedly reverted this fact on my wiki entry to state that I was invited by a friend to visit ESO, a completely different thing. If that were true, which someone relying on Wikipedia would believe, then my claiming that I was a Visiting Astronomer is a lie. In science, faking credentials is a particularly bad thing to do. But that is what anyone using Wikipedia will conclude about me, if SA’s edits are allowed to stand.

Of course this is just the most glaring example. As Shell points out, a lot of SA’s edits are extremely biased and, as on many, many other entries, he defends them by having seemingly unlimited time to revert continuously. This includes eliminating the views of James Van Allen, who I assume you all are familiar with.

SA’s behavior toward me is not exceptional. If you look at his user page he has been involved in a vast number of revert wars, all with the aim of purging Wikipedia of anything he deems unorthodox, including the views of scientists as distinguished as Halton Arp. (If you don’t know who he is, just consult any galactic atlas and see all the galaxies named Arp220 or Arp- some- other- number).

Here is just one random example:

'Comment by User:DavidRussell'

ScienceApologist consistently deletes any passages that refer to alternative interpretations of redshift. He then falsely claims that the redshift articles which already exist cover concepts that he has in fact deleted in previous attempts.

"Another critique of cosmological redshift also came from Halton C. Arp, who continues to find empirical support in the existence of apparently connected objects with very different redshifts. Arp has interpreted these connections to mean that these objects are in fact physically connected. He has further hypothesized that the higher redshift objects are ejected from the lower redshift objects - which are usually active galactic nuclei (AGN)- and that the large observed redshifts of these "ejected" objects is dominated by a non-cosmological (intrinsic) component. Conventional cosmological models regard these as chance alignments and Arp's hypothesis has very few supporters within the research community."

ScienceApologist (as Joshua Schroeder) saw fit to delete this passage claiming that it was not NPOV.

Comment by Jon

The infuriatingly stubborn and irrational behaviour of Joshua Schroeder is pretty much the principal reason I can't be bothered participating in Wikipedia much these days.

A random example from SA’s talk page

Uncivil

This edit: "People who parade about pseudoscience in place of actual science are irrational" is insulting and degrading. Please have some civility and stop reverting this article in contrast to the talk page. Bastique▼parler voir 19:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, SA’s behavior is a disgrace to Wikipedia .Elerner 00:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

And in Wikipedia's opinion, you should not be editing/edit-warring an article about you. See WP:AUTO. Guettarda 00:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps he was not aware of WP:AUTO. Clearly, it's best that he restricts himself to the talk page (though he could appeal to Office, I suppose). The "visiting astronomer" issue does seem to merit a closer look. El_C 00:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Good grief, a member of Arbcom thinks blocking Giano for mild incivility to a major troll is a good idea last month, and now SA has been blocked for his usual diligent thankless work on science articles, on the word of a known POV pusher and this is supported by someone violating AUTO, and we're supposed to think this makes it legit? No wonder good editors are sometimes scarce around here. Minor apologies for the ascerbic tone... One puppy's opinion, your mileage may vary. KillerChihuahua^?!? 00:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Since when is Lar a "major troll"? Metamagician3000 10:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Truth be known, I'm a science apologist, triumphalist, erm, supporter, too! Go science! Still, this dosen't seem so clear-cut yet. El_C 00:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite agree, El_C, but this was surely not a case for blocking. KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, Shell appears to have had some reservations and offered other admins to unblock if they so choose. FM felt it warranted unblocking and I take no issue with his decision as I trust his judgment. The blocking is in the past, I hope. El_C 01:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Protected until dispute resolved. Note, protection was emplaced prior to (my reading of) User:Elerner's reply above. There seems to be a definite WP:AUTO problem involved. Vsmith 00:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

A couple of small edits have since been made by admins. I made one of them, on the basis that it was agreed by SA immediately prior to the protection and it helps Elerner's concerns slightly (even though he thinks it doesn't go far enough). I've been trying to help but am feeling my way here - too much admin interference could just inflame the situation. I think they need to find a way forward, whether it's mediation or something else.

I must support SA to this extent: the only thing he seems to have done that could merit any criticism was to describe the controversial appointment without using the words "visiting astronomer". However, he was prepared to compromise about that. I don't really think a block was justified here, but nor is criticism of the admin who did it - this is a volatile situation and we're all just trying our best. Metamagician3000 09:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Other criticism is described below. --Iantresman 10:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• FeloniousMonk, you implied that I was a "well-known pseudoscience POV pusher."[37]. Pehaps you would be so kind as to explain (a) what you mean by this phrase, (b) where I am guilty of the description (c) How this perception influences your Admin decisions.
• You suggested that my "gloating posts in this section [are] trying to discredit a fellow editor".[38] Can you explain (a) Which words are "gloating" rather than statements of fact (b) How this discredits.
• And how would you think ScienceApologist's combined edits would affect a persons's credibility, when he (a) Removed Lerner's writing awards [39] (b) Replaced positive reviews with negative ones [40] (c) Removed the verifiable information that Lerner was a "visiting astronomer" [41] (d) Removed the credentials from another scientist [42]

--Iantresman 10:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it's time for arbcom? We may want to have Eric, Ian, and myself in the case and resolve this business once and for all on nonstandard cosmology related topics. --ScienceApologist 11:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I would agree to that. --Iantresman 13:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, Ian, I would propose it, but I'm kind of exhausted from dealing with the last block. If you want to suggest an arbcom referencing this discussion here I imagine it will be accepted. You can note that we went through mediation, at least three RfCs, and these discussions here before coming to arbcom. That should silence arguments that we haven't exhasuted all other possibilities. --ScienceApologist 00:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Civility warning

Should an editor receive a warning for this [43] edit summary? Anchoress 18:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't look like it to me. There's no prohibition on four-letter words, if they aren't aimed to hurt, which I couldn't discern there. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

An exhaustive and exhausting discussion of this matter from late 2005 is to be found at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Duncharris and not least its talkpage. (Note especially these interesting stats for the use of the word "fuck" in edit summaries.) Is it time we had another one? Bishonen | talk 20:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC).

Whatever else it is, it doesn't seem to be uncivil to anyone. Metamagician3000 02:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't know what to do here, if anything...

I just ran across this in my page beat, and thought someone here could know how to respond. 68.39.174.238 22:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ignore it, or revert it, but certainly don't act on it, we don't indef ban ip's. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

we don't ban IPs at all; we block them. Terminology. :P ~crazytales56297.chasing cars//e 02:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The wannabe IP spoofing username was blocked, which was my main concern. 68.39.174.238 03:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked user evading block

• Myspaceaddictaust (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Footyfan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

It would appear that sockpuppeteer Pnatt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is back on a new user account called Footyfan. He's pushing his POV-style edits, etc. in the MySpace and Cranbourne, Victoria articles again (same exact edits that have been refused by consensus over and over again when Myspaceaddictaust was pushing them, even causing a RfC to be started. Need help blocking the new account before it starts to take off. Thanks. ju66l3r 22:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't help with blocking, but I can help keep an eye on him. Sadly, Pnatt is one where we dropped the ball. He had every prospect of becoming a dedicated and detailed editor, despite (or perhaps because of) his OCD, but we didn't find any good ways of communicating with him and steering himtowards the right way of doing things. Instead he got an escalating series of blocks. I came in late and tried to help, but by that stage he was convinced we were all a pack of bastards. In the end, I gave up on him because he won't make any effort to work with others. He's done things like this before, but he's fairly easy to spot because a series of differently named new editors appear to make the same edits on the same articles. --Jumbo 22:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• MySpacefreak (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

We have a new one. ju66l3r 16:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Need help with some trolling

Hi, can someone please block Jakov123 (talk · contribs)? He most likely created it to impersonate Jakov.miljak (talk · contribs), and now is leaving comments like theseThis edit has been oversighted. — Werdna talk criticism 06:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC). Thanks. —Khoikhoi 00:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah this guy needs to get blocked. Nothing but talk page vandalism and clumsy attempts at revealing personal info. —Nate Scheffey 01:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Dealt with. JoshuaZ 01:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. —Khoikhoi 01:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The edit you point to has been oversighted. — Werdna talk criticism 06:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Libel issue?

Eric Lerner has been the subject of numerous disputes over the last few days. In particular, the subject of the article edits Wikipedia. The page was under protection for a month in a version he liked. Conversation stalled. When the page was unprotected and editting resumed, the conflict reemerged and the page was protected again, this time in a version Eric didn't approve of. He has called for the old version to be reinstated and has insinuated (falsely, in my estimation) that the current version amounts to libel. See Talk:Eric Lerner. --ScienceApologist 01:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Without being familiar with the subject, a quick glance at the diff for all changes since the page was last unprotected indicates that the substance of the changes has been to excise a couple of paragraphs about where his work has been published, and to greatly expand a criticism section, which essentially consists of large slabs quoted from elsewhere. The criticism section is now longer than the rest of the article, and about 2.5 times as long as the section on his work.

The end result is that a section which was previously a balanced summary of the critical response (positive and negative) to his work is now exclusively negative, all of the positive response having been removed. While it all seems verifiable, there are some undue weight problems. The old version is better from a NPOV standpoint, in my opinion.

I'm not going to express any opinion on libel. --bainer (talk) 03:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Correction, most of the criticism appears cited, except for one paragraph which is not, and probably unlikely to be, which I've removed: [44]. --bainer (talk) 03:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Balance and NPOV are not necessarily the same thing especially when someone is an extreme minority viewpoint according to WP:NPOV. JoshuaZ 03:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

That section is far too quote-intensive. They all essentially appear to recite the HBBM theistic line, but regretfuly, with little qualitative distinction or much elaboration that isn't limited to offhand rejection: "simply wrong," "presumptuous," "badly flawed," "you shouldn't open your mouth," "rests upon, rather than contradicts the Big Bang model." Perhaps, but in any case: Amen. El_C 04:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It's quote intensive because many editors were not satisfied with prose summaries written using the sources. This is probably not the best course of action. --ScienceApologist 00:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

El_C, you have commented on this article earlier on this page as well, and on the value of the Plasma Model as compared to the Big Bang. You don't come across as having a NPOV here at all, since it is the second time that you feel the need to include references to the supposed "theistic", religious reason the BB is supported. This is a false argument used by opponents of the BB and has nothing to do with its scientific value. While there may be religious people that support the BB because it fits in some interpretation of a creation myth, you can't just use the reverse idea (that the BB is the mainstream theory among scientists because it supposedly supports a creation myth) to put it in a negative light. BB is supported by most scientists because it fits the observations best and beacuse it permits to make the best predictions. The plasma model, on the other hand, is mostly unquantified speculation with some anecdotical evidence. Fram 09:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The 'you don't come across as NPOV' is too reminiscent of the general believe-what-we-do HBBM line. Simply because a model has scientific applications does not mean it is correct. Speaking so confidently about the origin of the universe is scientifically un-humble at this stage of human development. Now, I find it unfortunate that I need to make reminders that the notion of cosmic origin, HBBM or Plasma, should not be treated as a mere casual observation. Sorry to throw a healthy dose of skepticism on both theories, but these "criticisms" (in the article) are potentially quite revealing: So if I get to decide whether to allocate money or jobs to one of the bright graduate students working on some of the many fruitful issues raised by the Big Bang cosmology, or divert it to a crackpot who claims that the Big Bang has no empirical successes, it's an easy choice. Not censorship, just sensible allocation of resources in a finite world. She, herself, would not get her grant money if her position would be any different, is the undeniable reality. I wonder what Nobel Prize recepient, Hannes Alfvén, would say to that. Denying funds may not be the inquisition, but it does seem to be a form of censorship. Now, if significant funds were to be allocated and nothing came of it, that is another matter. But this dosen't seem to be the case. To have powerful forces in society, such as the Catholic Church, officially support the HBBM, that is not a mere aside, nor is the false impression of would-be superhuman, wholly dispassionate and NPOV pro-HBBM scientists. Regardless, that section is remains far too quote-intensive. El_C 19:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, but that was not my point. It would help the discussion if you would leave out the constant linking of the BB to some theistic purpose or support, and try to discuss and compare the scientific value of both. Otherwise you give the impression of taking sides because of irrelevant side issues, and to make the BB "guilty by association". The claim that BB wins because it gets all the funds is very tired, and the conspiracy theory that it gets all the funds because it is supportive of a creation myth is even worse. Fram 20:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't subscribe to cospiracy theories, I adhere to institutional analysis. The fact is that HBBM proponents express far too much certainty that the model correctly depicts the origin of the universe, which is scientifically un-humble. I, on the other hand, adopt a more cautious but nonetheless critical position, whereby in the future, the HBBM may be deemed a correct basis, or PC will, or some synthesis between the two that will result in a new theory. In pure scientific terms, I'm not taking sides, but it also appears fairly clear to me that the HBBM's upper hand in the debate is not a product of entirely legitimate and purely scientific reasons. El_C 21:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Protecting the "wrong version", while common and normally to be expected, is completely unacceptable on wikipedia articles on living persons. In case of a genuine dispute concerning negative information, stubifying is prefered over a wrong version. Stubifying also fixes the problem of someone causing problems just so positive unchallenged information sits there for long lengths of time. This should not need to go to the living persons bio patrol, as the people involved here should be able to make sure relevant policy is adhered to. WAS 4.250 10:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment. All the criticism of Lerner is definitely sourced; looking at the talk page, the issue seems to be that Lerner wishes for there to be more praise of him in the article detailing exactly which prestigious institutions he's once spoken at/visited/praised him somehow/etc. I don't think this is reason enough to change the version protected. I'm certain an article on the Piltdown man can be made "balanced" by reciting an equal number of praises of the discovery as well as debunkings of it, but this would not be a true balance since it is recognized as a hoax now. I am not a physicist, so I can't say if plasma physics is true or false. However, if it is generally the consensus among academics that plasma physics, while a reasonable hypothesis in the 60's, is unlikely to be true in light of modern knowledge, it is entirely reasonable to have an "unbalanced" review of his theories. SnowFire 21:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick note of clarification. While User:SnowFire wrote plasma physics, I believe plasma cosmology is what was meant. --ScienceApologist 00:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, plasma physics is not an issue at all. Plasma cosmology is both an issue (is it protoscience or merely formerly protoscience and now better descibed as psuedoscience?) and the general background for the wiki-conflict between ScienceApologist and a few others. But my comments referred specifically to the libel issue raised by Eric Lerner concerning the living person bio article Eric Lerner at Talk:Eric Lerner as brought up in the initial comment in this subsection. For the future, for all living person bio articles, it should be clear to everyone that stubifying is preferred to freezing a version with significant issues. A threat to one's career expressed by the person defamed, such as for example "the way it is worded makes me out to be a liar in a field where credibility is everything" is a significant issue. In some cases a person might blow a small thing out of proportion to try to get a more positive bio frozen. Freezing a stub instead can create motivation to work towards a compromise in some cases. In this particular case, it looks like a compromise has already been worked out to everyone's satisfaction. WAS 4.250 07:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

A page which keeps getting created

Patrick Buri (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The page Patrick Buri has been deleted several times, see [45], originally following a discussion on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Patrick Buri. The page has now been created again but nothing seems to have changed to make it keep-worthy. I have put up speedy deletion templates but they keep getting removed. I request that an administrator take a look at it. Regards, Stefán 01:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I deleted it and protected it from recreation. This latest version wasn't exactly the same as the AfDed version... That version was better than this one. Still unsourced and not notable. Grandmasterka 01:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Need some more help...

This time with the banned user Mywayyy. Currently he is disrupting Greek island articles as 88.218.69.147 (talk · contribs). —Khoikhoi 01:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Dynamic IP. Just revert on sight. Sasquatch t|c 03:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

We've all been reverting...can someone please block 88.218.69.147 (talk · contribs) and 88.218.44.154 (talk · contribs)? —Khoikhoi 04:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I hope all those places have a significant Turkish population as I just reverted all of em. El_C 04:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, not all, but as we know, having a Turkish population today doesn't have to be the only factor. These islands were part of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years. Also, even if Mywayyy is right, the user is banned anyways. —Khoikhoi 05:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Even Crete? Don't we go by currently living population? The Ottoman Empire hasn't been around for nearly a century. El_C 05:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware a present-day population is the only factor. See Cretan Turks. —Khoikhoi 05:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

All of these places dont have ANY Turkish population. I dont think that beeing part once of the Ottoman Empire justifies to have the Turkish name at the opening line. It is unacceptable and users such as Khoikhoi just dont get it. Mywayyy

I concur with El_C. A Greek island should not have a Turkish name unless it has a significant Turkish population, and vice versa. --physicq210 05:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome to discuss this at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Greek and Turkish named places), if you want... —Khoikhoi 05:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, note that the Greek names are at İznik, Edirne, Bursa, İzmir, Trabzon, Kırklareli, Sinop, Mersin, Bergama, Bodrum, Muğla, Kastamonu, Eskişehir, and Konya. I'm not saying we should be "fair", but we both have the Greek names at Turkish city articles and the Turkish names at Greek islands (and some cities) for the same reason - history. —Khoikhoi 05:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, if there is general agreement on this and it is implemented in an even-handed way, I have no objection. El_C 05:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Islamic Fascism - Complicated issues - could use help

One editor restored Islamic Fascism, as a text page. It had been a redirect page pointing to Islamofascism. The restoration included much duplicated text. The editor then proposed a merger from Islamofascism. There were only a few comments in the current discussion, and no consensus for a merger. Another editor proposed making the page a dismabiguation page. I agreed. We could have just restored it to the original redirect, this seemed like an actual compromise. Now the unhappy editor continues to recreate the Islamic Fascism, page as a text entry, demands another merger vote, and inserts into Neofascism and religion the false claim that the "Main Page" on discussing Islam and fascism is Islamic Fascism. This needs to be cooled out. I am open to being told I am reading this all wrong, but it is a mess that is being caused by one user, when there are several options open, including discussions at Islamofascism and Neofascism and religion, which I have suggested repeatedly.--Cberlet 01:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you are wrong; we've been through this before and have already gone to exhaustive lengths to reach the current comrpomise. El_C 05:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree here (as editor not as admin, obviously). There are, as far as I can see, two separate and distinct concepts here: the history of fascist overtures to Islamic countries pre 1945, and the modern concept of "islamofascism". To disambiguate the two seems the logical course of action, especially when a third usage, in neofascism and religion, also presents itself. Guy 10:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

@JzG/Guy, tx for letting me know about this topic being talked about on this page.

The problem is that someone had been removing all references to "Islamic fascism" from the "Islamofascism" page, even in contexts where the expression "Islamic fascism" had clearly been used as a synonym of (or at least interchangeable with) what you called on my talk page "the recent concept of islamofascism" (definitely not the pre-1945 stuff).

That is a NPOV problem, which, as far as I can see can not be solved by the technical surgery of declaring that the Islamofascism page is only about a word disconnected from its meaning. As far as I understand guidance on the matter (WP:NPOV, Wikipedia:Content forking,...) Wikipedia does not allow to make two separate pages, with differring content, about a same *concept* even if there are two synonyms referring to that same concept.

If there would be agreement to treat 21st century synonyms to "Islamofascism" on the Islamofascism page that page would no longer be a POV fork. There is currently a POV fork in this sense while the page doesn't clarify that if a post-9/11 speaker/author uses both the expressions "Islamofascism" and "Islamic fascism" there is generally no reason to assume these expressions are used to signify something different - or is there any reason to assume that?

As far as I know there's only one Wikipedian opposing to clarify that on the Islamofascism page. Could we join to try and convince user:Netscott that it is not a good idea to remove all references to "Islamic fascism" from the Islamofascism page, like this user has been doing in the past, e.g. [46]? --Francis Schonken 11:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

But this type of content question should be decided on Islamofascism or Neofascism and religion, and if editors there agree to a page name change or text content changes, then that is what collaborative editing has produced. The issue on this Administrator notice page is that Francis Schonken is not willing to carry out this discussion on the pages where all the other editors are editing, and instead keeps recreating a redundant (and POV fork) page, Islamic Fascism, where 80% of the text is already on the other pages, and declaring all of us have to move over to that page for the discussion. But this page was a redirect, and most of the text had already been moved to Islamofascism or Neofascism and religion. These text move and the turning of Islamic Fascism into a redirect was a compromise produced after a huge, contentious, and lenghty dispute. Even so, these decisions can all be changed through editor discussion and constructive consensus, but that is not what is happening.

This is not a merger issue, it is either a page name change issue (which has been repeatedly rejected) or a text content issue (in which Francis Schonken so far has been unable to convince other editors that certain edits should be retained). So I asked for the page Islamic Fascism be locked as a disambiguation page, and came here to seek help in getting Francis Schonken to discuss these issues on Islamofascism or Neofascism and religion. This is a question of increasingly disruptive activity that I think is in part due to the fact that, in this case, a page merger mechanism about a redirect page (now a disambiguation page) is not a constructive way to find a consensus among editors for possible changes--and in any case, the merger idea never received any clear support. --Cberlet 13:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Islamic fascism is best as a disambiguation page, or a redirect of that's not needed. If someone wants to rename Islamofascism to Islamic Fascism, there is a mechanism to do that, though I don't think it would be a good idea. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Stone me! VoA protected the right version! Better head over to meta... Guy 23:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Incivility and personal attacks

Please warn NazireneMystic about incivility and personal attacks directed against the other editors on the Talk: Ebionites pages. We are going through Peer Review of the article. All of the religious commentary and personal insults are making it difficult to work effectively. --Ovadyah 02:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no blatant personal attacks (not to say there isn't, just maybe a lack of knowledge of the history of this dispute may impede this judgement), and the civility is six up, half a dozen down. I'm not sure whether it warrants a warning or not, so I'm not going to place it. Any diffs would be great to this alleged behaviour. Cheers, Daniel.Bryant 08:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I offer as evidence this post about me to another editor's user page: Good Faith. This occurred immediately after being reminded of the guidelines posted on the Talk:Ebionites page - to assume good faith and avoid personal attacks against me. The argument NazireneMystic makes here is that I am not deserving of such consideration because I am unethical. I consider this gentle reminder by Loremaster to be an npa1 warning. I am requesting an npa2 warning be placed on this user's page because the character attacks have not ceased. Ovadyah 16:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

See also this second version Good faith? where Loremaster implores this editor to not use the article to wage a campaign to expose my sins. I have been dealing with this kind of behavior since mid-July and it needs to stop. Ovadyah 19:52, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Request for block

Please block Freelanceresearch (talk · contribs) for continued abuse and insults towards other editors on Talk: Sathya_Sai_Baba. User is a single purpose account and has been misbehaving and using the talk page as a soapbox, and has been warned by other editors and Wikipedia admin to stop. (Ref). Admin also warned user twice on their talk page (Ref). User threatens to file complaint against Admin for supposed "harassment". Please block to prevent further disruption and personal attacks from user. -- Ekantik 03:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

A browse thru the recent contribs of the user finds this, and not much else - only pretty abrupt comments, maybe verging on WP:CIVIL, but not much else in the form of a PA. Admittedly, this was only a brief check, so some more examples would be helpful if Freelanceresearch is to be blocked. I'll ask the applicant of this request-for-block to do this. Cheers, Daniel.Bryant 08:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I told him some days ago to tone down the rhetoric or be blocked. He has not edited much since, other than the normal "rouge admin abuse" nonsense about my obvious bias towards the anti-Sais on his Talk. Guy 09:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Admittedly any examples are old by now. Ref 1, Ref 2, Ref 3, and Ref 4 are some good examples of User's abrasive behaviour. Perhaps the main point is that the Sathya_Sai_Baba[ article is highly controversial and tensions are ever-present on all sides. It is also a sensitive time with the dispute recently having been taken to ArbCom. Freelanceresearch (talk · contribs) has contributed very little (almost nothing) by way of discussion on the talk-page; her contribution to insulting and launching personal attacks on other editors was noted by another Admin Ref, asked to step aside by another editor Ref, and continued misbehaviour brought a warning from Guy. Admittedly she has quietened down since her warning except for haranguing Guy on her talk page. User is a single purpose account with an overwhelming bias in favour of Sathya Sai Baba; User's behaviour at the least precludes her (abusive) interaction with other editors and editing the article at hand. Request is for an emergency/temporary measure while the article undergoes a very sensitive stage in development as a result of ArbCom decision. Thank you. -- Ekantik 05:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio problem, not sure how large

I found two geographic articles on South America (Purunllacta and Cerro Olán) that had been copied from travel sites. I then found another from the same author (Gran Vilaya) that showed signs of having been run through a machine translator, turning Spanish pages into bad English, but I was able to find the Spanish source page for that one. Although the author (Priscilla D (talk · contribs)) denies this is a pattern, I have to wonder about the sources for her other contributions, all of which are short geographical articles. In scanning through them, most show the bad English of a machine translation, which makes locating any original source difficult. Author's English seems somewhat limited. Not sure if someone needs to go back through them. Fan-1967 03:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

You can go ahead and check them, and report back to us what pages are copyvios and we will deal with them and the user who wrote the articles. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

block review, please

May I request wider review of the admin actions of Blnguyen (talk · contribs) wrt Sanskrit (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)? It is my understanding that the 3RR applies to bona fide content disputes. Is an editor (in this case Crculver (talk · contribs)) reverting several unrelated nonsense (but not necessarily bad faith) additions to an article in violation of 3RR if the sum of his reverts exceeds three, or should each case count as a separate 'content dispute' (if at all)? I am afraid that if we begin applying the 3RR cumulatively in this way, it will become rather difficult to keep articles with a high frequency of poor quality/nonsense additions in decent shape. dab (ᛏ) 07:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Generally, the 3RR means more than 3 reverts to one article in 24 hours. Doesn't mean to one particular version. Unless it's vandalism (and it doesn't appear it is), that user violated the 3RR. --Woohookitty^(meow) 08:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The 3RR always needs to be interpreted in the circumstances. The circumstances here were:

1. Two editors reverted each other four times each,
2. All of the changes in question were in substance the same (compare this and this with that and that).

In this case both editors, Crculver (talk · contribs) and Spiritindia (talk · contribs), were blocked for 3RR. In these circumstances I think both blocks were justified, especially considering Spiritindia went on to revert war with another editor (see this and this).

I'm not sure that I agree that more than three reverts to an article necessarily means that the 3RR has been breached. Clearly four of the same revert is a breach. But if a long-time editor of an article reverts four different contributors making four different edits, I wouldn't be so sure. One would need to look closer at the number of reverts, and their attitude, ie. whether they were reverting in good faith or to protect their version of the page. --bainer (talk) 08:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This is one of those situations where 3RR is being applied mechanistically. There is no doubt that the text Crculver reverted was POV, redundant with a more encyclopaedic treatment of the same facts higher up, and in somewhat questionable English (this is by now a very mature and well-written article with largely excellent use of English, scholarly in both tone and content); it seems to me that the article is better without that text. Nor was Crculver the only editor reverting it. Spiritindia inserted text and then refused to support its inclusion on Talk, and reinserted it with a variety of patently false assertions such as "no reason given for removal". It's obvious who the source of the problem is, here. If Crculver is repentant and asking to be unblocked I suggest we admonish him and unblock, if Blnguyen agrees. Guy 09:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Guy makes a good point. Let's consider my favourite article, The KLF. This is a Featured Article which is meticulously referenced but I doubt it's on many watchlists. An FA can be improved, of course, and I have no POV to protect, but what if 4 or 5 anons come along in a day and insert bad English, uncited assertions and general crapness? Am I supposed to say well I've reverted 3 times in a day it'll have to wait? Am I going to be blocked for removing crud 4 times in a day? I sure hope not. Also, I don't think it's fair to apply 3RR against a sole editor who is tackling 4 "opponents", unless those "opponents" collectively get 3RR too. Otherwise, in an edit war a gang of meatpuppets are guaranteed to win. --kingboyk 09:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

IN fairness to Blnguyen the two other editors then involved in the war (including Spiritindia) were blocked as well, and we do not endorse reversion as a way of pursuing content disputes. Thus far Crculver seems to have taken it in good part. But this still niggles at my sense of fair play. Guy 10:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

hm, I was referring to the circumstance that Crculver was blocked for 96 hours for 7 reverts, i.e. his 'Spiritindia' reverts were cumulated with other cleanup he had been doing. It may be arguable that Crculver did 4 reverts against Spiritindia, but to penalize him for 7 seems extremely 'mechanistic'. Are we administrators or shell scripts? dab (ᛏ) 19:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

If a person takes 10 edits to do a revert, I count that as one revert. In any case, the 7 came from the bunch against Bharatveer also. It's true that the edits weren't of the best quality but Dbachmann has been using rollback on the Sanskrit page, feels this is perfectly justifiable and has called for the use of {{test}} templates for these edits, and Crculver said "could be fairly considered vandalism", so I'm not sure that his attitude is the best at the moment. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 01:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

'Seven reverts? I'd say that justifies up to a week. He really needs to cool down. --Tony Sidaway 23:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Justifies a week? Blocks are preventative, not punitive. Any number of reverts justifies precisely the length of block that it takes to get the person to stop reverting - no longer. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Normally, GT, I'd agree, but this isn't user:Crculver's first 3RR offence. It's not even his/her first offence on that particular page, even. Firsfron of Ronchester 23:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Crculver has violated 3RR on the same page before.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems like an awfully open-and-shut case for a thread of this length. Grandmasterka 05:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandal Sock

Please refer to #Samir Bhadva (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) and block the latest sock User:Akrazy Bhadva -- Lost^(talk) 10:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Two more: User:Olaf Tommason and User:Alost Bhadva. Same vandalism -- Lost^(talk) 10:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

All blocked -- Samir धर्म 12:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate username

User:Daniel.Bryant must die recently vandalised User:Daniel.Bryant. I think he should be indef blocked because of an inappropriate username -- Lost^(talk) 10:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Glen just indeffed, so it's done. Thanks for the vandalism revert Lost! Daniel.Bryant 11:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to delete the userpage and talkpage while leaving the username blocked? Pages headed "User:Foo Must Die" should not exist on Wikipedia for any value of Foo. Newyorkbrad 22:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems to have been done. Newyorkbrad 23:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Should a check user be done on this guy? It might be another vandal or contributor that has a grudge against Daniel, or something.--KojiDude ^{(viva la BAM!)} 23:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Somebody obviously misspelled John Tucker. Hbdragon88 06:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism problem

I'm having a problem with a user, Deucalionite, who has a long history of problem articles (unsourced edits, original research, copyvios, for some background see here). One copyvio article of his ([47]) was now found out by the plagiarised author, who yesterday joined Wikipedia and rightly complained about her PhD dissertation having been plagiarised from ( [48]). I contacted both the complainant ([49]) and the offending user ([50]). Unfortunately, I have a somewhat troubled history with this user (I was heavily monitoring what I considered highly problematic work of his back in June, and he feels I'm stalking him), so his reaction was defiant and, let's say, less than constructive, not really showing any understanding of what the problem is. Maybe my own wording was also a bit more tense than it would have been otherwise. Could someone review the ensuing exchange here [51] and consider if this needs intervention? Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Removing ifd warning

User:Deathrocker is contantly ([52], [53], [54])removing the "Image for deletion" warning from Image:MichaelOwenNewcastle.jpg. --Abu Badali 16:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I've warned him. If he reverts again, I'll block for 3RR, anyway. --InShaneee 17:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed it for a reason; the image has no free alternative, and Abu Badali persits in covering up the rational gave for it. [55] He claims "a free image for the purpose of showing this person can be easly produced." in place of the rational, yet refuses to prove this, provide a free alternative, or discuss his sabotage attemps on the image's rational here on its talkpage. - Deathrocker 17:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Even if you disagree, the correct way is to post a comment on the IFD page, NOT remove the tag. Removing the tag does nothing but piss people off. Hbdragon88 20:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

great waste of time (Afd nominations not based on WP)

Spooky walk, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Spooky walk - EXCERPT Fails WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. It is realted to the various other AfD and CfD nominations for trivial items by the same author/major contribitor. It isn't even important whether this thing exists, or whether you can find it in google. It's as notable as a leather belt, which is fortunatley absent. Fiddle Faddle 22:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

User initiated similar deletion nominations. I consider it a waste of time. This argumentation style is not far from trolling and disrupting. Someone tell this user to stop it. User:Yy-bo 17:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

You might think its a waste of time. However, some of the AfDs the person you are worried about initiates get a mixed reaction. You are probably best served by just participating in the AfDs and improving the articles. The Land 22:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Just wondering if everyone can use this argumentation style. It is not really important if the thing exists, it is important if i like it, and it is similar to a yellow sofa. Where is the button to speedy delete a user? REDO FROM START, TRY AGAIN. User:Yy-bo 12:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I am always content if a nomination for deletion fails or if it succeeds because the community reaches a consensus in either case. However, I am confused and perplexed by Yy-bo's creation of articles by the bucketload, many of which are, to my eyes, not useful or notable topics, and really think the comment in the edit history on creation of yet another, here may show a misunderstanding of the ethos of Wikipedia. I think it is time for an experienced admin to make a judgement over this. Please also see my request for advice over this on my talk page and the response. - Fiddle Faddle 19:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The volume of your elaboration is too much. Suggest you maintain articles and leave my work as it is. A request for comment is not required, if you do not want it. Save the community time, i do not talk about you except the offical procedures. [User:Yy-bo]] 19:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: Yy-bo's user page points to the user page of Nikemoto2511 on Wikisource, which links to a "closed" account Akidd dublin here on Wikipedia. Both Yy-bo & Akidd dublin demonstrate a similarly poor command of English, & appear to edit the same kind of articles (e.g., Baking oven, which has been since moved to Oven, & Red hair). Akidd dublin was a participant in a Mediation Cabal case. In short, this user has been around Wikipedia to be expected to know how it works -- yet still demonstrates he still doesn't know, perhaps due to the language barrier. -- llywrch 20:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yy-bo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been harassing Fiddle Faddle about his clearly reasonable nominations of articles to AfD and related comments, which has caused this good-faith editor some consternation. Yy-bo's behavior is inappropriate. —Centrx→talk • 20:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Having run into Yy-bo before via AfD rationales and his talk page, I feel that he is a well-intentioned editor but occasionally a misunderstanding (by him or another) due to poor receptive and/or expressive English skills becomes a tour de force of policy quoting and chest-thumping from one or the other side, or both. I don't intend to turn this discussion into an RfC on Yy-bo or anything, but I have seen him contribute some good edits/material and also get tenacious with what he thinks is an abrogation of policy (even if that's not the case). ju66l3r 21:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no argument with that assessment. He has huge energy and creativity. I just wish he would channel it into the excellence he is capable of. However I feel threatened by his attitude, and really would like someone to guide his hand. Fiddle Faddle 21:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Creek people

Creek people has a repeat repeat vandalism offender. I hope posting here is the solution. The offender is an unregistered IP vandal 164.58.208.245 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) who has changed the pages 16 times in the past 30 minutes.

Template:UE

Luwalhati repeatedly replaces the current content of Template:UE with an infobox he/she has created. Not only is this disruptive (as this the warning template for the translation team), but I've explained to him/her on his talk page that this is disruptive, and left instructions on how he/she can create the template appropriately. The user refuses to communicate with me, and continues to void the template and insert entirely different content.--Esprit15d 18:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

You warned her after first time, she did it again. I think you have to wait until the second incursion to get WP:AIV going. Hbdragon88 20:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

GoBots vandalism

GGGB (talk · contribs) has been making the same (minor-marked) edits to Challenge of the GoBots (see [56], [57], [58]) with usually the same edit summary, "rvv", as the indef blocked user GoGoGobots (talk · contribs) ([59], [60], [61]). I'm not sure whether to complain about GGGB on the grounds of vandalism-only account, accuse GGGB of being a sock, keep reverting the changes, or ignore it. Could someone take a look and see if anything should be done? BigNate37_(T) 20:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This guy isn't even attempting to cover up being a sock. On the off-chance that he's a different person, he should still be blocked as a vandalism account. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 22:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Indef blocked. -- SCZenz 22:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Just reverted GoBots vandal again. This time, it's GobotsGo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) — only one edit so far [62], exact same M.O. By the way, is this the right place to report this? BigNate37_(T) 01:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Dining philosopher

Back in July, Dining philosopher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) vandalized the Andhra Pradesh page [63], [64], [65], [66]. He was given a warning at that time by Ganeshk about this. Dining Philosopher also cut-pasted whole paragraphs off websites.

He was absent for two months, but apparently resurfaced today, to launch personal attacks on Ganeshk [67], [68], calling him Bloody idiot, dimwit. He also went ahead and re-inserted the copyvio text [69], [70], [71]. Also, he blanked citations given in the article. Upon given advice on Wikipedia's relevant policies, he demanded to know why people from other nations want to edit the article in question. He also launched personal attacks referring to my nationality.

Since I'm involved, I do not want to take any administrative actions, but based on his behavior, I request some other admin to look into the diffs provided above, and take appropriate actions. Thanks. --Ragib 20:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I've given him a 24 hour 'time out', and deleted his userpage (a racist rant). --InShaneee 20:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. --Ragib 20:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

User 202.124.131.43

Please consider blocking/ banning this user - he has made several edits, none of them legitimate.

In the future please take such reports to WP:AIV. I have given 202.124* a warning. JoshuaZ 21:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

malicious editing from user:Shawcorss

Shawcorss has been systematically changing articles regarding civil rights issues (he inserts attacks on Democrats as racists--and adds false info like JFK voted against the civil rights law. Editors catch him quickly, and he has been warned, but this sort of systematic vandalism should be blocked. Rjensen 21:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Keanu Reeves

Nathaniel77 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) WoW vandal, or impersonator? EFG 22:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Neither? Apart from one edit summary of 'wow', which is a common exclamation, I can see no willy-like behaviour. The Land 22:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's Keanu Reeves? I'm mean I'm sorta famous --Charlesknight 22:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

My block of User:ZenVortex

I just indefinitely blocked User:ZenVortex, as it seemed to be used only to make rants at The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. If someone thinks that this user could one day be a valuable contributor to an encyclopedia project, and wants to mentor them towards that, they should feel free to unblock. I mention this here as the blocking reason is entirely subjective, but I don't think that we need this kind of editing. Jkelly 22:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No, someone who makes edits like these obviously just needs a quick 1 hour block to calm down and maybe a mentor or an RfC or two and he'll be writing featured articles in no time. (What? It's late, sarcasm is the best you're going to get from me at this hour.) --Sam Blanning^(talk) 23:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

(That was pretty good, actually). El_C 23:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It appears the user was given absolutely no warnings. In the future maybe give such users one warning before blocking completely? This was makes it look too much like the Jews do actually control Wikipedia and if anyone realizes that the word cabal is from hebrew...JoshuaZ 23:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. We should not attempt to humor racist provocateurs. I fully support Jkelly's block. El_C 00:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

We'll never convince them otherwise because we'll never accept their view of history. Block away. Mackensen (talk) 00:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Banned user Alienus using sockpuppets

The banned User:Alienus is again using anon sockpuppets, this time on articles like list of ethicists, the Category:Books by Ayn Rand and list of major philosophers. Legitimate anon users also edit these pages. LaszloWalrus 23:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

User continues to revert, after agreeing to RfC

In article Criticism of the clothes free movement I removed an external link to a web site because I felt that it did not meet wikipedia standards (WP:EL) and was not a reliable source (It is a one person POV attack site). Another editor, user:Michaelbluejay, disagreed, and reverted. After discussion, we did not come to agreement. I submitted a request at wp:RfC, and so far there have been no responss to that. I've asked user:Michaelbluejay several times, very civilly, to please wait for an response to the RfC, or admin action, but he continues to re-insert that innapropriate link. If someone could give me some guidance, or a better method to follow than waiting at RfC, I would appreciate it. Atom 00:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Threats

From Here Any Muslim who supports Osama or terrorism or states that 911 was a US conspiracy IS a terrorist and should be treated accordingly. It is not POV it is terrorism. I hope the FBI carefully checks out every person who posts pro-terrorist statements. A cell awaits them at gitmo.Cestusdei 20:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I do feel bad after reading his post. You have to read the whole thread to know the contaxt. Can someone give User:Cestusdei a warning please so that he do not use such threats again? Thanks --- ابراهيم 23:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I stressed (on your talk page) to the user that s/he must tone down the rhetoric, or face sanctions. El_C 00:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking at all of this user's contributions, I don't think this user will ever contribute productively to the encyclopedia -- everywhere they've been they're doing their best to stir up trouble and pushing POV. I'm taking the liberty of indefinitely blocking this user. If you disagree, feel free to unblock, but I encourage you to carefully review the user's edits first. --Improv 02:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Good call Improv. I believe that someone else would have indef blocked him. A total breach of many Wiki policies. People comming from discussion forums and blogs to this place w/o prior knowledge of the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. It's becoming a hard currency. I appreciate the way everybody dealt w/ the situation. Cheers.-- Szvest 10:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC) User:FayssalF/Sign

Andrew Cuomo

I'm about to sign off for the day, and am hoping an admin can keep an eye on the Andrew Cuomo article which has been vandalized twice today by those wanting to wage a political campaign on Wikipedia. Thanks. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 00:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

There have been a range of IPs inserting the same unsourced, POV material (but finally stopped adding their all CAPS message at the top). They include: :*4.167.245.176 (talk · contribs)

• 4.167.244.161 (talk · contribs)
• 4.167.241.193 (talk · contribs)
• 4.167.241.68 (talk · contribs)
• 4.167.246.148 (talk · contribs)
• 4.167.245.98 (talk · contribs)

At what point do we consider a range block? --ZimZalaBim (talk) 21:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

semi-protection lift request

can i please have the semi-protection lifted? thank you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LedZeppelin499 (talk • contribs) 02:38, 14 September 2006.

On what page? BTW, the correct place to go for this is WP:RPP. —Khoikhoi 02:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ed g2s orphaning {{promophoto}} images en masse

See full thread at User_talk:Crzrussian#Promophoto_massacre.

Ed_g2s orphaned and tagged for {{orfud}} fifteen images of my uploading without leaving a note of any kind. All the images were of U.S. State Attorneys General, each was taken either from the state's website or from the website of the National Association of Attorneys General, http://www.naag.org . All were tagged with {{promophoto}}. Example: Image:AG Danberg.jpg for use in Carl Danberg.

Ed_g2s' edit summary was, (WP:FU "An image of a living person that merely shows what they look like ... would almost certainly not be acceptable as fair use") each time. FU is a guideline, and IMO the particular clause he relies on is plain wrong. To make matters worse, it was only added yesterday. Ed_g2s attribute this line directly to Jimbo. I have seen no evidence of that. I haved asked him a couple of times that he revert himself and submit the matter to an IFD discussion to determine whether his chosen interpretation of policy is correct or desirable. He flatly refused to do so, essentially stating in so many words that he knows better, and that "[a]n IFD consensus would not bypass our Fair Use policy", or, in plain English, the community's reading of the Fair Use policy could not trump Ed_g2s' reading of same. This is extraordinary chutzpah.

I have not reverted him (though the temptation was there) and I ask those who are reading this page to intervene in this conflict, to revert Ed's changes (in order to stave off deletion),and to force him to submit to a consensus of his peers.

Our discussion is contained in full on User_talk:Crzrussian#Promophoto_massacre. - CrazyRussian talk/email 03:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Good for him. It's about time someone gave WP:FUC #1 some teeth. --Carnildo 03:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Mmm, very curious; is it really correct to apply the "living person" point here? The photo is that of a living person, true; but it is being used to show what a fictional character looks like. Is the intended consequence of this "clarification" that articles on fictional topics be stripped of images? Kirill Lokshin 03:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest unless the appearance of the fictional character is much different from that of the actor, then a plain picture of the actor would suffice, and as such the same rule would apply (no promo pics). ed g2s • talk 09:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I thought that fair use criteria were based on the type of text it accompanied. If the article is encyclopedic enough, one or two fair use images are okay (what's the point of an image that doesn't show what they look like). It's when they turn into mere good-looking illustrations that fair use cracks. A single image on a bio article is perfectly acceptable. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If an image truly is a promotional photo it's ridiculous to say we can't use it. That's what it's intended for (what does "promotional" mean?! :)). Of course, that's not to say some photos tagged this way aren't really promotional photos. --kingboyk 09:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That would be ridiculous, but we aren't saying that we legally can't use them, but that we don't want to use them. ed g2s • talk 13:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I suspect you'll find that the average editor does want to use them. As before, most of us are here to write articles not to crusade for free content by refusing to use fair images in the vain hope that it will force copyright owners to release free versions. (Short answer: in some cases it will, in many cases it won't. We lose.) --kingboyk 14:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If people really want us to show a picture on their article, they should give us one and release it under a free license. People with promotional photos are certainly able to do so if they want to. Restricting fair use is a way to more free content. Kusma (討論) 09:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I imagine a lot of these people couldn't care less about Wikipedia. Restricting fair use is a way of cutting off our nose to spite our face. I'm interested in seeing the best articles we can make (including well illustrated one) not on a crusade to force the "capitalists" to abandon copyright. --kingboyk 09:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

We're not trying to force people to abandon copyright - we're are simply and free content project. Providing material free of copyright restrictions is one of our founding principles. If you want to create the best article you can create regardless of copyright issues then you need to find/start a different project. ed g2s • talk 10:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say that. I said forcing people to abandon images which we are perfectly entitled to use and for which there is no free alternative is counterproductive. I provide my time free of charge and licence my work under the GFDL - but if I want to use a image and no free image is available or owned by me why shouldn't I use a fair use image instead?! --kingboyk 13:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Because it's our policy to not use Fair Use when we could obtain a free image. It hurts our long-term goal of creating free content. ed g2s • talk 13:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, agreed, if there's a decent free alternative we should always use it. We don't yet have the power to force the issue imho. There is of course a seperate issue, whether or not these pictures have been correctly tagged in the first place. To my mind, a promotional photo is a photo released in a press pack (printed or virtual) for the expressed use of media organisations. An image grabbed off a website and claimed by the uploader to be a promo shot because it comes from the subject's personal website is an entirely different matter. --kingboyk 13:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well our policy disagrees with you on this one, and so does Jimbo. There's not really much more I can add to that. ed g2s • talk 13:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong but images taken off the state attorneys website are in fact permissable. As for fictional characters if the image is released to the public domain in the form of a press kit then these images are being released to be used by the public for purposes of exposure. Should we use fair use images over free ones, of course not, should we delete all the fair use ones and wait for free ones, of course not. Should we substitute fair use images with free ones that are of far inferior quality, surely not. However a free image should be used when it is of equal or superior quality then the fair use. Dont cut off your nose to spite your face is a perfect saying for this. --User:Zer0faults 13:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:FU is not a policy btw. --User:Zer0faults 13:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:FUC is, and most promophotos fail point #1 of it. --Carnildo 19:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

While this convo is going on, may I remind you that these images will be deleted in seven days if Ed's changes are not reverted? I reiterate my request that one of you reinstate the fifteen images for the time being, in order that a proper IFD consensus may be reached. Thank you. - CrazyRussian talk/email 13:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, a question: What measures are being taken to ensure this is not a meerly destructive campaign? Whilst Ed means well, simply removing all such images en masse will damage many, many articles, and often in cases were the aquisition of such imagery is difficult to impossible. If Ed was publically part of a wikiproject that was actively working for alternatives, contacting people to try and get promophotos under the GDFL, there would be no question about good faith. But it seems there is a nieve assumption being made that GDFL or otherwise free images will always be practically availible, which is certainly not the reality. I strongly advise that Ed stop all such actions and begins to work more productively with the community on this. LinaMishima 14:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

To call this a destructive campagin would be to assume a lot of bad faith. Whether or not I am actively involved in finding replacements is completely irrelevant. I am enforcing the policy and as such encouraging the use of free media. As I stated before if you disagree with the policy you can take it up at WP:FU. ed g2s • talk 14:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not assuming bad faith, removing informative material from an article reduces it's quality, and to reduce the quality of things en masse is by definition destructive. It appears that whilst you do mean well, you have not thought about the implications of much of what is being done. The discussion at WP:FU appears to suffers from a nieve belief that free images can always be taken, or permission will be granted, whilst in reality this is not a sensible assumption. Whether you are involved in sourcing replacements is an indication of your beliefs and motivations. By removing images but not seeking replacements, it creates a classic example of pure wikilawyering, rather than a strive to actually improve the articles. Whilst unfree images are indeed bad, images add significant content to an article, and most visitors to wikipedia will not understand the concept of GDFL, only that we don't have a pretty image. LinaMishima 14:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It is your opinion that removing Fair Use images reduces the "quality" of the article. Our policy is based on the philiosophy that articles with avoidable fair use images are of a less quality with respect to creating a free encyclopedia. I believe that removing these images will long-term improve the project as people strive to find free replacements for the spaces. If you think my motives are anything but the best interests of the project then you are mistaken. ed g2s • talk 14:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ed, I truly do believe that you were acting in good faith and meant the absolute best. Please understand that. What is being taken issue with is the medium-term implications, as it will take quite some time indeed to aquire free images and it is nieve to assume otherwise. May I suggest an alternative change in approach: Do a small numder a week, or even better announce the intention to remove the image link and mark the image for deletion in the following week. By making this a systematic project, people will have adequate warning to work on creating the replacements. Indeed, I would fully back such a measured scheme to remove all such images, it just has to give proper opportunity to work on aquiring replacements. LinaMishima 15:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Lina's suggestion seems reasonable (I'm still not convinced there is a policy cause to remove these images anyways since they are fair use and we don't have alternatives at the moment (obviously photos that are claimed promo with no good justification should be removed but I dont see that claim being made for these photos in general). Incidentally, please note that Jimbo's opinion isn't binding unless he speaks ex cathedra which I don't see him as having done in this case. Also Wikipedia may be now well known enough such that we could set up or work with some celebrities to release GFDL or similarly marked photos (I'm aware of a few less famous cases (mainly scientists) where this has been done). JoshuaZ 15:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would put it more starkly: "I'm still not convinced there is [not] a policy cause to remove these images anyways since they are fair use and we don't have alternatives at the moment." - CrazyRussian talk/email 15:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well it's on WP:FU in black and white so there's not point denying it. This is policy and the images will be deleted. I don't see how doing 10 in one go was such a "massacre" as someone put it. Furthermore running each of these through IfD is unneccessarily long-winded and not the correct process for dealing with images which fall foul of our Fair Use policy. ed g2s • talk 16:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

No, Crzrussian. They are not "fair use" because they fail #1 in WP:FUC (which is a policy). There used to be debates on how we should interpret "No free equivalent is available or could be created ..." but since the September 9 clarification on WP:FU (a guideline explaining the policy) there's nothing more to debate in this regard. --Abu Badali 16:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Rather than continuing to argue, can we agree to a compromise here? Annoyingly it is true that if someone is still alive and not a complete recluse or highly restrictive of photographing them, we should somehow be able to create GDFL or similarly licenced images. And if that is the case, the Wikipedia:Fair use criteria do not apply. However, as a gesture of good faith and in an attempt to minimise the short term damages, image deletions will be carried out with warning and in a series of phases, allowing time for free images to be sourced. The Wikipedia:English promotional images solution, if you will. LinaMishima 16:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If someone needs to see something labelled with a "policy" template that supports this, see item number one of Wikipedia:Fair use criteria. We, and by we I mean both those people dealing with Wikipedia:Fair use issues and Wikipedians in general, have been encouraged to begin enforcing our fair use guidelines and policy, which we have, to date, been extremely lax about. The best way to support the continued careful and thoughtful use of unfreely licensed content on Wikipedia is to demonstrate that we are not using it to replace the freely licensed content that we're trying to provide here. The "promotional" template is an extreme case; very few of these images can actually be demonstrated to have their copyright owned by the subject or their agents. That means that they fail our basic sourcing requirements as well. The cleanup of that category is going to be a huge job, and I encourage interested editors to pitch in and help. Jkelly 16:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

My own view, which is at the extreme end of the spectrum I know, and therefore not (yet) formal policy in every case, is that we ought to have almost no fair use, outside of a very narrow class of images that are of unique historical importance.

The cover of an album is the best and only sensible illustration of an article about that album, for example. A screenshot from a movie is often also the best and only sensible illustration. Some pictures (Elian Gonzales and the Border Patrol for example) are historically critical and irreplacable and worth fighting a fair use battle for if necessary. But an ordinary photo of a random celebrity? We are much better off to have no photo than to have a fair use or even "wikipedia only" photo.--Jimbo Wales 21:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

link See also: [72] [73]

I'm not a fan of this (since I don't agree with the ideological motivations), but if we are really going down this path, can I suggest that we create a distinctive deletion template explaining the situation and a new WikiProject for requesting truly free versions from intellectual property holders. Dragons flight 16:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I like your wikiproject suggestion, so it's been added to Wikipedia:English promotional images solution LinaMishima 17:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Lina, thank you for creating this page. To make it really useful, I would suggest that you mention it on Wikipedia talk:Fair use and possibly upgrade it to a proper wikiproject. olivier 17:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate then for me to request permission from the National Association of Attorneys General to use these images freely, or do I have to worry about the states retaining copyrights in the images displayed on http://www.naag.org? - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, copyright is almost always retained anyhow (seriously, read the articles on it, it's a confusing mess o.O), what matters is if the NAAG can issue these images under the GDFL or a compatable licence. I'd say give it a try and ask them, and enquire who the correct people to contact would be if they cannot allow this. LinaMishima 17:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Copyright is a mess. Look at Commons:Licensing about it. The images that we have "by permission" are usually also 'non-commercial' which means that any downstream user can't use them, which means that our project fails to be what we want it to be. Ideally we'd replace every publicity and permission image tomorrow, but it isn't going to happen that quick, but it must happen eventually, and the sooner the better imho. My own view is that it would be better to get rid of the flagrant abuses of copyright we have before deleting all the permission and publicity ones, but either way, one day they'll have to be gone. --AlisonW 20:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Hephaestos = Michael = Mike Garcia = Johnny the Vandal = Willy on Wheels?

A few hours ago, 12.171.163.20 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) made several posts titled "The truth about John" [74] [75] [76], apparently claiming that Hephaestos = Michael = Mike Garcia = Johnny the Vandal = Willy on Wheels. Can someone investigate this claim? Scobell302 03:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Who cares? These days anyone who does anything even vaguely related to pagemove vandalism or has a username containing something WoW like is Willy on Wheels. (FWIW the original vandal using that name was UK based, that user is US based). Given that one of those names was well known for harassing the others on the list, then you could take a view of either (a) It is one sad individual who can't get attention for doing constructive things or (b) it is just a furtherance of that harassment. Again who cares though? If someone is involved in vandalism and harassment - WP:RBI. Don't feed the trolls. --pgk 06:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget Bobby Boulder. --Cyde Weys 06:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:DENY. JoshuaZ 12:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't know any Mike Garcia, Johnny the Vandal, or Willy on Wheels. I know several Michaels, and Hephaestos used to contribute a fair bit, but I have never heard of the three people above. No idea what you're talking about. --Deathphoenix ʕ 14:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael (talk · contribs) was a long-term vandal (see the most entertaining User talk:Michael/ban), who Jimbo attempted to rehabilitate - he made the account Mike Garcia (talk · contribs) for that purpose. Part of the reason was his alleged contrition, and partially because the AOL blocks that were aimed at him frequently hit others, particularly Danny (talk · contribs). If memory serves he finally admitted that while the Garcia account was relatively well behaved he was also running the Jonny the Vandal accounts. He claims to be WoW but there's no reason to believe him, as Pgk notes above. WoW really isn't a single vandal any more - it's essentially a franchised brand that any old idiot picks up. Hephaestos, on the other hand, was a long-term, very productive, highly capable and very well respected contributor and fearless vandal-slayer (back in the days before all these namby pamby vandalfighting tools like bots and autoblockers and even rangeblock). Michael had a particular obsession with Heph, and it looks like (surprise) Jonny the Vandal did too. There's no reason to suppose that Michael will stop any time soon (he's been doing this junk for years). The sooner we permanently block those parts of AOL which can't/won't send end-user IP info the better. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The major difference between Wow and Michael was their attitude - Michael was always a foulmouthed, threatening, nasty vandal. The real WoW (back when one could descern him from those who took his name) never was; indeed, he seemed to go out of his way to make himself obvious, and while his vandalism was frequent and sometimes hard to fix, it always seemed to me that (in his own weird litle way) thought he was part of the dev team, helping us with pen testing by doing vandalism we couldn't ignore but which (if some visitor chanced upon it) was both clearly vandalism and yet inoffensive (he could, lets face it, have renamed pages to something far worse than "... on wheels"). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Heck, Hephaestos was a vandal-fighter in the days when there was no ArbCom, & IIRC he had about as much clout as a newly-minted Admin today -- if that much (I don't remember if we even had Admins besides Jimbo in those days). BTW, Danny considered Michael one of his success stories, & I don't know if he's been convinced that Michael==Johnny the Vandal. It would be enough to discourage anyone if it is true. -- llywrch 20:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The U.S.A.A. vandal

At first I thought this was just a new user, but nope it's a vandal. I first spotted him as Usaa indexer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and all the account did was create articles with the initials U.S.A.A. After every article was speedily deleted, as its contents were just the title again, I thought after a few warnings on the talk page he'd stopped. He was later blocked for personal attacks in addition to the spamming. Instead of adhering to the block the user has reappeared as Usaa editor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) doing the exact same thing. The change of accounts is clear vandal behaviour to try to hide that he's been warned in the past and the fact it's the same M.O. shows that this is going to become a problem. –– Lid^(Talk) 03:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The user appears to be this IP 84.58.198.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). –– Lid^(Talk) 04:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Already indefblocked abakharev 06:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Grapefruit seed extract

I think it's time someone went through the history of Grapefruit seed extract and it's talk page and do some sort of rangeblocking from this once static and now dynamic IP editor. Ryūlóng 06:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Their latest vandalism added the comment that they have "Dynamic IP Universal" (a great new-to-them program) on the Talk:Grapefruit page (here's the diff). I tend to agree that something may need to be done in a range sense for a short term or maybe sprotect will suffice. ju66l3r 17:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The below sub-section was overwritten on top of the above text. This is one example of the problems caused by this particular editor who is a frequent dynamic IP switcher within the 63.42.* range. ju66l3r 20:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Copyright Violations by Devios is against wikipedia's rules.

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR THOROUGH INVESTIGATION. Now that I have your attention please investigate! Copyright Violations by "Devios" is against the pillar of Wikipedia's Rules! http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grapefruit_seed_extract&oldid=72495019 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grapefruit_seed_extract&oldid=72467578

Compare the info which Judith Sims wrote and the illegal info Devios is putting and reverting to copyright info on wikipedia's website is considered VANDALISM!!! Read carefully. You will find copyrighted info on wikipedia's website. This is against the law.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2603/is_0003/ai_2603000396 < Judith Sims

Thanks in advance for conducting an investigation into this copy right violation.

Wikipedia does NOT have written permission from the copyright holder to use this information. Although the copyright infringement is in the history section it still needs to be removed.

Copyright Violations by Devios is against wikipedia's rules. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR THOROUGH INVESTIGATION. Now that I have your attention please investigate! Copyright Violations by "Devios" is against the pillar of Wikipedia's Rules! http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grapefruit_seed_extract&oldid=72495019 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grapefruit_seed_extract&oldid=72467578

Compare the info which Judith Sims wrote and the illegal info Devios is putting and reverting to copyright info on wikipedia's website is considered VANDALISM!!! Read carefully. You will find copyrighted info on wikipedia's website. This is against the law.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2603/is_0003/ai_2603000396 < Judith Sims

Thanks in advance for conducting an investigation into this copy right violation.

Wikipedia does NOT have written permission from the copyright holder to use this information. Although the copyright infringement is in the history section it still needs to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.42.146.125 (talk)

this reposted again. And so again the same drill. The article has been cleaned up, the history can't be removed. -- Drini 19:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Request for unblock

Moved notice to WP:AN. El_C 08:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism at Talk:Steve Irwin

I've just done an IP check on the IPs vandalising Talk:Steve Irwin with obscene edit summaries, and they all seem to be coming from Korean IPs.

They're in the 211* and 218* range of the Korean ISP Dacom - maybe a range block is warranted, or anon-editing prevented?? --LiverpoolCommander 10:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Time Crisis 4

There has been some "silly edits" that either can't be verified by reliable sources, or just simple hoax information just keeps on coming. Is there a possibility to protect the page for about 3 days to prevent hoax information from coming in? Look at the history, because I was forced to revert due to hoax information being placed—I've also made public warnings that the content must be verifiable, apparently the editors who put hoax info isn't listening. Can someone help me on this? Thanks. — Vesther (U * T/R * CTD) 11:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

May I interest Sir in this delightful requests for page proitection system? I think Sir will find it suits his purposes admirably. Guy 11:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Brisbane Grammar School

Would a couple of kindly admins please put this Article on their watchlists. It has been the subject of much reverting and "debate" amongst interested editors. As someone not involved I will attempt to calm the situation but I am concerned it might quickly go pear-shaped. Someone with a bit more firepower than me watching the situation would be helpful.

--Charlesknight 13:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Comedy of errors

I was enjoying not editing Wikipedia, but have been lurking now and then and making a few comments here and there. Today, I noticed, out of the blue, that I had been placed on probation by the Arbitration Committee.[77] Needless to say, it came as quite a surprise. After all, nobody ever told me that the ArbCom was even considering doing as much. I've been involved in ArbCom cases before, but only as a witness. Never as a defendant. I was placed on probation for "tendentious editing," with 5 members voting yes, 1 voting no, and 1 abstaining. The reason? Well, since I've been "banned twice"[78] for 3RR (well, actually only once, since the other two times were later admitted to have been hasty, if not in error), it must follow that I'm a very tendentious editor who needs to be on probation. What is strange, however, is that there was no discussion of this on the case's workshop page. Where did this come from, then? It was placed on the proposed decision page on 28 August 2006, over a month after opening the case (and long after I had paid any attention to it);[79] I received no notification.[80]. Any discussion of the matter is curiously absent from the evidence page[81], and, of course, I had no input in the matter, since I was never told about it.

This only underscores the reasons why I have stopped contributing to Wikipedia. The head does not know what the hands are doing, and the hands don't even know they have fingers. Now I have the distinct pleasure of being placed upon probation without any apparent reason or any apparent warning. I'm extremely disappointed in the administration process, and especially at the ArbCom members who who, it seems, voted yes without adequate consideration of due process. Their only reason for placing me on probation seems to be that it seemed like I had been blocked for 3RR a number of times.

So, now I'm on probation, without evidence, and without ever having been notified that I was even being considered to be put on probation, thereby preventing me from defending myself. Preposterous. --AaronS 16:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• It was in plain sight for weeks, having been added in late August by Dmcdevit [82]. If you don't edit in a tendentious fashion, as you claim, then you should have nothing to worry about. You were still editing heavily when the matter was proposed, but to judge from your contributions you were busy elsewhere. You had weeks to defend yourself, but you chose to stomp off in rage instead. Now you come back to find that the wheels do indeed continue to turn in your absence. I'm afraid I can't fathom how it is you've been wronged in this matter. Mackensen (talk) 16:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Do you really expect me to keep an eye on an ArbCom case that I'm not even involved in? I offered my initial statements as a witness in July, and then let those people who were actually involved sort it out. I had no opportunity to defend myself, because I was completely in the dark. Furthermore, I did not stomp off in a rage at all when I left Wikipedia. I was disappointed, yes, but not angry. Just like now. I also find it disappointing that anybody who is critical of Wikipedia in general gets caricatured as an angry, angsty, whining idiot. I'm just presenting my thoughts, and I would appreciate it if you treated them with the same consideration with which I treat yours. Your hostility seems unwarranted. --AaronS 16:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm just telling you how I see the matter; I see no need for you to bring in all those negative epithets. For my part, I've always kept an eye on Arbitration cases in which I had either given evidence or been named a party. As a frequent editor of a page involved in an arbitration case you were obviously a party to the matter. My characterization of your leaving is based on my reading of your supposedly final post on this noticeboard, after which you promptly disappeared for a length of time. If you've been characterized as an "angry, angsty, whining idiot" it's only by your hand; I've made no such remarks and I see nothing in my rather terse reply above that would suggest such a characterization. You were in the dark by choice. Mackensen (talk) 16:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Forgive me for interpreting your statements as smug and dismissive; clearly I was in error. I was also unaware that people become party to an ArbCom case simply by association. I was never named as a party to the case. I gave evidence, monitored it for a while, and then stopped monitoring it after a few weeks. My final post to this page contained no "rage," just disappointment, as I have already noted. Characertizing someone as "stomping off in a rage" has plenty of negative and condescending connotations. You are correct that there was no need for me to bring them to the forefront; they were already there. --AaronS 16:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
        • This same thing happened to me, after over 1 month of my arbcom case having no attention its being proposed I be put on probabtion even though the other people involved, including the accuser do not edit Wikipedia anymore. Luckily someone drew my attention to it since after almost 2 weeks of no admin or arbcom member even noticing it I took it off my watch list. As it stands it would have flown right by me that anyone even proposed anything, actually ti did since they moved on to the enxt stage without even informing me. I guess its just the load of the ammont of work they have, but it seems it prevents people from actually being to defend themselves as at any moment things can spur along rather quickly, meaning proposed items to final items in 3 days after 1 month of no activity. --User:Zer0faults 16:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Something obviously has to be done about the situation as I filed an Arbcom against another user and it came back one month after the person quit Wikipedia that they were being given a 24 hour block ... Perhaps Arbcom needs to grow as the wiki grows. --User:Zer0faults 16:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The probation should stand; however this was an oversight on behalf of the Committee and the Clerks. We should have added AaronS formally as a party to the case and notified him shortly after probation was proposed. --Tony Sidaway 16:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

In a case like this (where apparently notice was not given to one of the added parties), I would hope that ArbCom would be willing to reopen the relevant portion of the case should AaronS wish to present some evidence in his own defense. Dragons flight 16:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with Dragons flight. olivier 17:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

As do I, but... tisk, tisk, we forgot that arbcom is above us mere mortals, so it doesn't matter worth a damn what we say here. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 17:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

So, thanks for that useful comment. Would you like to take a free kick at someone else, too, or are you finished for the day? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I was gonna spit on some homeless orphans, but that might be too magnanimous of me. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 18:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If the ArbCom admits that it has made a mistake in the application of its procedure, then it is in the interest of its credibility to step back and apply the procedure properly. olivier 17:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would assume that, as in most cases where probation is imposed, the involved party may make a request to have the probation lifted. In this case, a request of the following form is probably appropriate.

I would like to apply to have my editing probation lifted. I did not know that probation was being considered as a remedy to be applied to me, and was not notified that ArbCom was treating me as an involved party to the case. I believe that probation would not have been applied in my case had I had an opportunity to explain my actions. Specifically, probation is inappropriate in this case because of the following errors of fact or interpretation by the ArbCom: ____, ____, and _____.

Note that if there isn't an error in the ArbCom's findings of fact, or there isn't a good explanation for the behaviour observed, the probation is unlikely to be lifted. (He did receive 3 3RR blocks over a span of six weeks, imposed by three different admins.) This can be handled as a single motion amending the closed case. I also note that probation, in and of itself, doesn't restrict an editor in any way—as long as that editor abides by our policies and employs good editing practices. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a general familiarity with ArbCom procedures but no involvement in this particular case, no acquaintanceship with (?ex-)User:AaronS, and no familiarity with the subject article, Anarchism. It appears to me that AaronS has a legitimate complaint here. According to his user contributions, he posted comments on WP:RfAr at the case acceptance stage, on July 24. The case was then opened on July 26 and ArbClerk Tony Sidaway duly notified him on his talk page that: "An arbitration case in which you commented has been opened. Please add evidence to the evidence page. You may also contribute to the case on the Workshop page." (Italics mine, obviously.) There is no suggestion that the user must submit anything or follow the case for a decision.

The form of this notice was different from the one given to users who were considered parties to the case, for example, User:Intangible. The notice from Tony to those users read, "An arbitration case involving you has been opened...." There was no indication that AaronS was a party to the case or was potentially subject to sanctions.

Once the ArbCom accepted the case, an ArbClerk sets up the case with its Case, Evidence, Workshop, and Proposed Decision pages. At the top of the Case page, the template reads, "Please do not edit this page directly unless you wish to become a party in this request." However, the Case page was opened on July 26, and AaronS last commented on July 24, on the main RfAr page, which does not have such a notation and frequently incorporates comments from "uninvolved users" (I myself have commented there on occasion, and do not consider that doing so made me a party to the case I commented on, although I did follow the cases thereafter). The Case page lists the involved parties as Cberlet and Intangible; there is no mention of AaronS as a party and, although it might have made good sense for him to be following the case, he was under no notice that he had to do so and it appears that his surprise at having been notified, more than two months later, that he had been placed on Probation, is genuine and understandable.

As Tony Sidaway indicates, what occurred here is an inadvertent error on the part of busy ArbCom members and ArbClerks in not notifying AaronS when an arbitrator decided sua sponte to propose a remedy against him. No aspersions of any kind should be cast and good faith on the part of the Arbs and ArbClerk is not only assumed, but it is clear that the fullest good faith was actually present throughout.

However, given the error that took place, the appropriate procedure is for an interested party to make a request on WP:RfAr that this case be reopened to give AaronS an opportunity to present evidence if he wishes to do so. In the first instance, an Arbitrator can present such a request, or Aaron can do so himself (it goes under Requests rather than Motions if a non-Arb does it). If AaronS wants, I will place the motion on the page for him, although I am not expressing any opinion on whether he ultimately should be on probation or not (nor do I know if he cares given that he says he's on quasi-perma-Wiki-break anyhow).

Looking forward, I suggest that it become a practice that if a user is named on Workshop or Proposed Decision as being subject to a remedy, he or she be notified on talk. It sounds from what Tony has written above that this is what is intended anyway.

This sincerely is not aimed as a criticism of the Arbitrators or the ArbClerk for an inadvertent mistake. (I think ArbCom does a good job; if I were to criticize them at all, it would be for the undue delays that permeate some of the proceedings; understandable to be sure, as we are all busy people here and the Arbs more than most, but ... well, that is a conversation for another time.) Nor is it meant as Wikilawyering; ArbCom is not litigation, and picky procedural points should often be disregarded; and in any event, if I ever have to Wikilawyer, it won't be for someone I never heard of before :) . But this situation goes to the fundamental fairness of the proceeding, and I think it is in the interest of ArbCom as well as the affected user to acknowledge that, an inadvertent mistake having been made, it should be corrected. AaronS may wind up back on Probation anyway, but he's entitled to have his say if he chooses. Newyorkbrad 18:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everybody for your comments. I appreciate the efforts of people to take a closer look at this matter and to try to examine it as objectively as possible. To be honest, if the case were to be reopened or reevaluated, I'm not sure how I would respond, because no evidence was presented to which I could respond. My involvement was apparently not discussed on any of the pages. In fact, the only discussion concerning me that I can find is on the discussion page of the main case page. Lingeron, sock puppet of indefinitely banned user Thewolfstar, posted a long diatribe against me, it seems. I wasn't even aware of it, or, if I was, I don't remember it now. Thus far, the argument seems to have been that, since I have a block log with some 3RR violations, I must have deserved it. Such an argument, of course, is highly fallacious and unfair.

I only care about this ArbCom decision because it is a slap in the face. I don't think that it received the attention that it deserved, and feel that it was marred by procedural missteps. As I said in the beginning, if it were to be reexamined, I'm not sure what I would say. The most surprising thing is that, as of yet, no evidence has been presented against me. Again, thanks to everybody for your input. --AaronS 20:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Another User:Pnatt sock

• Aflfinals (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can you please block this one as well. It's pretty clear he chooses not to yield on a number of pages, including Cranbourne, Victoria and MySpace. Should I start a new discussion section when each of these new socks shows up or update a single one while it remains on the AN/I front page or some other method of sock removal that I'm unaware of? Thanks. ju66l3r 17:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

request for block of User:LordByronKing

LordByronKing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been editing in a suspicious manner, disrupting the editing process by making one change - saving - then making another, and has failed to respond to comments posted on his talk page, even though he remains extrememly active on Wikipedia. He has been adding books to lists, deeming them as "notable", without any reason for their notability - and they all tend to be by the same author, Steeves Volmar. He has also been making controversial changes to pornography actors - changing the stated sexuality to the whichever he thinks it "really" is. Viewing his contributions you can see that he edits repetitively, sometime for periods lasting five hours (these edits tend to be no more than 1-2 min apart). I have listed him at Wikiquette where an objecive third person has confirmed this suspicious activity. His edits are SO numerous that it becomes very difficult chasing after him trying to revert everything he's done. The wikiquette page and his talk page go into more detail. -Zappernapper 18:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Move war fallout?

I'm not sure how that happened, but all of a sudden I have a dozen pages like Wikipedia:Snowball fight and Wikipedia:SherlockJones on my watchpage. It seems someone was move-warring over WP:SNOW... but how come none of these pages show up in the move log, in the SNOW history, or have any history or deleted history? Is this some software change of which I'm unaware? >Radiant< 20:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Possibly caused by moving the article's talk page separately from the article? [83] --pgk 20:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed it too. Sigh. LinaMishima 20:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)