Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard: Difference between revisions

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This is an informal place to resolve content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups.

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Agent Carter (TV series)	In Progress	Andrzejbanas (t)	26 days, 12 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 5 hours	Adamstom.97 (t)	12 hours
Shenyang J-35	In Progress	ZLEA (t)	19 days, 6 hours	Mesocarp (t)	10 days, 11 hours	Nafis Fuad Ayon (t)	2 days, 22 hours
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Traditional Chinese Medicine	Closed	YellowFlag (t)	11 days, 13 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 5 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 5 hours
Mohamed Hadid	Closed	Thedarkknightli (t)	10 days, 16 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 4 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 4 hours
When Life Gives You Tangerines	Closed	Илона И (t)	9 days, 12 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 4 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 4 hours
Circumcision	Closed	Chaptagai (t)	4 days, 10 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 9 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 9 hours
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Current disputes

Neith

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Potymkin on 23:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Neith (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Potymkin (talk · contribs)
• A. Parrot (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An information about an ancient deity in Kemet has surfaced where the goddess Neith is described by ancient egyptians as 'Libyan Neith' shows the origins of this deity, user A. Parrot argues that this information is false and that Neith has purely egyptian origins while user Potymkin claims that Libyan Neith as described by ancient egyptians is the case, user A. Parrot presents Wilkinson and Lesko two egyptologists as proof that the deity is purely egyptian but after much reading reading on their works and presenting their books and page numbers in the talk page, even these egyptologists disagree with the point that Neith is purely egyptian and solemnly agree with Libyan Neith. after contacting Lesko via email she appears to be on board with Libyan Neith. the matter requires final settlement as neither party wants to concede.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neith#Claimed_Berber_origin

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I think taking time to consider both sides of the matter and the arguments presented in the talk page can help resolve the issue

Summary of dispute by A. Parrot

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Neith was worshipped in Egypt for more than 3,000 years, and the earliest evidence about her dates to the very murky Protodynastic Period. The sources describe her origins as uncertain; Five Egyptian Goddesses: Their Possible Beginnings, Actions, and Relationships in the Third Millennium BCE by Susan Tower Hollis says (p. 115) that Neith "presents the biggest puzzle of these goddesses".

At particular issue are two passages from books in the article's source list. Lesko 1999 says (p. 47) "Hermann Kees describes the northwestern part of the delta as being inhabited primarily by Libyans and points out that during the Old Kingdom Neith was characterized by Egyptians as Neith from Libya, 'as if she was the chieftainess of the neighboring people with whom the inhabitants of the Nile valley were at all times at war.' Other Egyptologists dispute this connection, however, and the first appearance of Neith is purely Egyptian." Wilkinson 2003 says (p. 157) "Although she was sometimes called 'Neith of Libya', this reference may simply refer to the proximity of the Libyan region to the goddess's chief province in the west­ern Delta."

Potymkin insists the article should describe Neith as Libyan or "Egypto-Libyan" and regards these passages in the sources as supporting that position. I believe the article should say scholars are uncertain about Neith's origins but describe a Libyan origin for her as a viable hypothesis—not a certainty. Potymkin continues to mischaracterize me as insisting Neith was "purely Egyptian". A. Parrot (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Neith discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not yet notified the other editor on their talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Neith )

I am ready to conduct moderated discussion about the Neith article .

Please read DRN Rule A and indicate whether you agree to follow these rules and whether you want moderated discussion.

The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. If you agree to moderated discussion, please state concisely what you want to change in the article, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Neith)

Thank you @Robert McClenon for offering to help to make wikipedia articles more comprehensive I am happy that you are able to provide some of your time for this issue, in the Neith article I would like to keep the following statement in the lead of the article: "was an early Libyan deity  worshipped by Libyans and ancient Egyptians. She was adopted from Libya (or was a divinity of the local Libyan population in Sais in Egypt, where her oracle was located). Her worship is attested as early as Predynastic Egypt, around 6000 BC." along with all of its relevant sources, this is due to sources I provided from UNESCO library, World History Encyclopedia which their publications are recommended by many educational institutions including:

• Oxford University
• Common Sense Education
• School Library Journal
• MERLOT
• University of Wisconsin-Madison

and several archeologists and egyptologists and multiple other sources that confirm the statement to be kept. Potymkin (talk) 20:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

First statement by possible moderator (Neith )

Each editor has stated briefly what they want to say about the origin of Neith. One editor says that she was a Libyan deity whose worship spread to Egypt. Another editor says that her origin is uncertain, but that the hypotheses include a Libyan origin. Is either editor willing to try to craft a compromise wording that will be acceptable to both editors?

DRN Rule A states that each editor is expecting to participate in discussion at least every 48 hours. If either of you will need longer wikibreaks, please let me know and we will see what alternate rule we can set up. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:14, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Neith)

@Robert McClenon thank you for taking the necessary time to analyze both view points correctly, I have crafted the terminology Egyptian-Libyan Deity that is acceptable which I suggested on the talk page Talk:Neith#Claimed Berber origin to try to resolve the issue. I am also open to suggestions of terminology that indicate the Libyan roots of Neith. the terminology already present at the article "she was adopted from Libya or was a divinity of the local Libyan population in Sais in Egypt, where her oracle was located" is sufficient to describe multiple viewpoints in my honest opinion. Potymkin (talk) 09:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Robert McClenon: My apologies for not responding. I haven't participated at DRN before and am a bit confused by the instructions and the format. E.g., I'm not even sure if I'm putting this comment in the right place—please relocate it if I've gotten it wrong.

My problem is that I don't know what compromise Potymkin would be open to that reflects what the sources actually say. Potymkin's argument is built on synthesis, ably summed up in this comment by User:Lone-078 (who is a party to this dispute but hasn't been notified to discuss here). It is an Egyptological hypothesis, but not one that is universally held, that Neith originated among the Libyan peoples of the Protodynastic Period. It is a certainty that Libyan peoples 2,000 years later worshipped her. But that does not mean she is certain to have been Libyan or Egypto-Libyan at her origin. Any claim to the contrary is a misrepresentation of the sources. A. Parrot (talk) 15:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Forgive my ignorance, but what is the next step here? A. Parrot (talk) 14:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by possible moderator (Neith )

The next step is that I will ask each editor to propose a revised version of the lede paragraph presenting what they think should be the introduction to the article. Since the issue is her origin, any statement about her origin should be clearly attributed to a source. That is, if you propose to say that she is of Libyan origin, the source must state that she is of Libyan origin. Then we can look at any issues of the reliability of sources, but first we need to compare revised drafts of the lede paragraph. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:13, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (Neith)

thank you for your consideration @Robert McClenon, the following is my suggested lead paragraph where sources show her clear libyan origin down to the book and the page:

Neith /ˈniː.ɪθ/ (Template:Lang-grc-koi, a borrowing of the Demotic form Template:Lang-egy, likely originally to have been nrt "the terrifying one"; also spelled Nit, Net, or Neit) was an early Libyan deity worshipped by Libyans and ancient Egyptians. She was adopted from Libya (or was a divinity of the local Libyan population in Sais in Egypt, where her oracle was located). Her worship is attested as early as Predynastic Egypt, around 6000 BC. She was said to be the creator and governor of the universe and the inventor of birth. She was the goddess of the cosmos, fate, wisdom, water, rivers, mothers, childbirth, hunting, weaving, and, originally, war. Potymkin (talk) 21:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

This is imperfect, but I think it better reflects the relative weight given by the sources. They don't usually spend much time on her possible Libyan origins and pay more attention to other aspects of Neith, so our article lead should do the same. A. Parrot (talk) 03:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Neith /ˈniː.ɪθ/ (Template:Lang-grc-koi, a borrowing of the Demotic form Template:Lang-egy, also spelled Nit, Net, or Neit) was an ancient Egyptian deity. She was connected with warfare, as indicated by her emblem of two crossed bows, and with motherhood, as shown by texts that call her the mother of particular deities, such as the sun god Ra and the crocodile god Sobek. As a mother goddess, she was sometimes said to be the creator of the world. She also had a presence in funerary religion, and this aspect of her character grew over time: she became one of the four goddesses who protected the coffin and internal organs of the deceased.

Neith is one of the earliest Egyptian deities to appear in the archaeological record; the earliest signs of her worship date to the Naqada II period (c. 3600–3350 BC). Her main cult center was the city of Sais in Lower Egypt, near the western edge of the Nile Delta, and some Egyptologists have suggested that she originated among the Libyan peoples who lived nearby. She was the most important goddess in the Early Dynastic Period (c. 3100–2686 BC) and had a significant shrine at the capital, Memphis. In subsequent eras she lost her preeminence to other goddesses, such as Hathor, but she remained important, particularly during the Twenty-sixth Dynasty (664–525 BC), when Sais was Egypt's capital. She was worshipped in many temples during the Greek and Roman periods of Egyptian history, most significantly Esna in Upper Egypt, and the Greeks identified her with their goddess Athena.

Third statement by possible moderator (Neith )

I have looked over the draft versions of the lede sentence. The first conflict between the two versions has to do with the nationality of Neith, in the first sentence. I suggest that the first sentence be written to compromise between calling her Egyptian and calling her Libyan. I suggest that the opening sentence be rewritten to something like:

Neith [followed by discussion of the origin of the name] was a North African goddess who was worshiped in ancient Egypt beginning in Predynastic Egypt and in Libya..

The remainder of the lede paragraph can then be reworked to follow and expand on

Are the editors willing to work with a revised version of the article that begins by referring to Neitth as a North African goddess? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Neith)

@Robert McClenon I am very happy with your suggestion calling her a north african goddess and expanding on her origins later on in the article. I suggest instead of saying Neith [followed by discussion of the origin of the name] was a North African goddess who was worshiped in Predynastic Egypt and in Ancient Libya as far back as 3200 BC.

I think my suggestion of calling her Egyptian-Libyan goddess is not bad either, since its more specific about north africa but it doesn't cause problem to owing to one origin of hers or another.

I hope you find my comment helpful

My problem with that is that is that Neith is specifically known, and usually referred to in the sources, as an Egyptian goddess. The Libyan peoples of this period did not use writing, so the evidence about Neith's worship comes almost entirely from Egyptian sources. It's not clear if she was worshipped by Libyans outside the Nile Delta at all periods, or if she was only worshipped by those Libyans who periodically settled in the Delta and adopted Egyptian customs. I don't see anything in Potymkin's sources that contradicts the latter possibility.

That doesn't mean she wasn't a Libyan deity, only that we don't know enough to say how extensive her presence in Libya was. Her presence in Egypt is the presence we can see in the evidence, and therefore it's the emphasis we find in the sources. A. Parrot (talk) 04:29, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Instead of focusing on finding a solution to the issue @Robert McClenon you can probably note the stubborn approach to the issue of considering Neith a purely Egyptian deity by the other arguing party, this renders any ability to reach a fair and team oriented 2 party solution like beating against a wall.

All in all my arguing party is bent on putting Neith as an Egyptian deity despite Ancient Egyptians themselves and UNESCO and all other archeologists calling her a Libyan deity. therefore the concession Egyptian-Libyan is more than a huge step on my part to resolve the issue that is clearly closed which is that the population concerned with the deity called her libyan and this is well confirmed by UNESCO and World History Encyclopedia which is sourced by institutuions like oxford university and other show the clear Libyan Origins of the deity. Potymkin (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Fourth statement by possible moderator (Neith )

One editor has written:

Instead of focusing on finding a solution to the issue, Robert McClenon, you can probably note the stubborn approach to the issue of considering Neith a purely Egyptian deity by the other arguing party, this renders any ability to reach a fair and team oriented 2 party solution like beating against a wall.

I don't understand. Please reread DRN Rule A.3.1, which says: Comment on content, not contributors. … The purpose of discussion is to improve the article, not to complain about other editors. I am not assessing complaints about other editors, because I am trying to find a way around any impasse. So, yes, I am focusing on finding a solution to the issue. If either editor wishes to withdraw from moderated dispute resolution, they may do so, because it is voluntary. However, any editor should read the boomerang essay before filing a report at a conduct forum.

I have suggested that the lede sentence describe Neith as a North African goddess who was worshiped in Egypt and Libya. The body of the article can discuss how scholars differ as to where her worship originated.

Are there any alternate suggestions for how to move forward? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors (Neith)

The key question for me is: is there an RS that says Neith was worshipped by Libyans outside the Nile Delta, not just Egyptianized Libyans living in it? If there is, I'd be entirely willing to describe her as an "Egyptian and Libyan" deity, regardless of where she may have originated. A. Parrot (talk) 08:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statement by possible moderator (Neith )

There are at least two possible areas of content issues. The first is what the lede sentence should say. The second is what should be in the body of the article. The lede should summarize the most important points as stated by reliable sources, and any disagreements or uncertainties should either also be summarized in the lede, or should be avoided, so that details can be explored in the body of the article. If I understand correctly, the main issue in dispute is the lede. I think that this is a case where we can avoid making contentious statements in the lede. Does anyone disagree that she was a North African goddess? If there is any disagreement as to her origin, is there any need to raise that disagreement in the lede, as opposed to discussing it in the body of the article?

I am inviting each editor to provide their own second proposed version of the lede sentence to see if we can find something to agree on. I have proposed what I think should be a compromise, but would like to see any other proposals.

Are there any issues about what to say in the body of the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:11, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Algeria

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Potymkin on 12:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Algeria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Potymkin (talk · contribs) Skitash (talk · contribs) Monsieur Patillo (talk · contribs) Dispute overview On the ethnic groups of Algeria in the country card, it mentions 85% arab and 15% berber, however in the source provided it says 99% arab Berber and less than 1% european, a note uner this stat in the source shows "although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab, only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population", here there is is not only no mention of 85% arab, but the source clearly states that almost ALL aalgerians are amazigh in origin therefore the number 85% provided is false and is original reseach by the contributor. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? necessary steps to resolve the conflict was a discussion in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Algeria#Ethnic_groups_Algeria in which matters turned uncivil very quickly due to the counter party's clear disdain How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I suggest one of 2 revisions to the ethnic groups card in algeria : - Arab-Amazigh (99%) | Primarily Amazigh (15%) | European (less than 1%) - Arab Amazigh 99%, (of which 15% identify as Primarily Amazigh) | European (less than 1%) Summary of dispute by Skitash Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. This topic has already been addressed several times in Talk:Algeria. Although the CIA World Factbook states that 99% of the population is "Arab-Amazigh", this is problematic because it creates confusion due to the lack of sources explaining what an "Arab-Amazigh" or "Arab-Berber" precisely means, and the few sources that use this term only mention it in passing. It also remains unclear whether this 99% figure combines Arab and Berber populations or represents people of mixed Arab and Berber origins. The Arab-Berber article was eventually redirected for exactly this reason. This is why the decision was made to use more specific divisions of ethnic identity, supported by multiple sources in Algeria#Demographics. The CIA source also notes that "only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population", meaning that the remainder of "Arab-Berbers" would identify as Arab, and this perfectly aligns with other reliable sources. I have attempted to resolve the issue by adding a footnote to the infobox outlining the different ethnic percentage ranges according to various sources. Hopefully, this resolves the issue. Skitash (talk) 13:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC) References Algeria discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Zeroth statement by moderator (Algeria) After looking into this issue, I am willing to act as the moderator in this dispute. I would like to ask the participants to please read Wikipedia:DRN Rule D and indicate that you will comply with it. Please note that discussions related to infoboxes are designated as a contentious topic. By agreeing to the rules, you state that you are aware of this. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Comment on content, not contributor. So it appears to me that Skitash would like the status quo to remain, and Potymkin would like changes to the infobox. I have two questions for Potymkin: 1. Are you fine with the current state of Algeria#Ethnic_groups or would you also like changes to that? If yes, please state those. 2. The CIA Factbook states that although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab, only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population and Study.com states that In fact, roughly 85% of the nation identifies much more strongly with their Arab heritage than their Berber heritage. Considering this, could you elaborate on what changes you want to the infobox and why? Thank you. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 14:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC) Zeroth statement by editors (Algeria) See comment below. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 16:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC) The following is a closed discussion. Please do not modify it. Thank you Kovcszaln6 for looking into the matter carefully, I would happily answer your questions : 1. Are you fine with the current state of Algeria#Ethnic_groups or would you also like changes to that? I am not fine with the current state if it, I propose either we insert : - Arab-Amazigh (99%) | Primarily Amazigh (15%) | European (less than 1%) - Arab Amazigh 99%, (of which 15% identify as Primarily Amazigh) | European (less than 1%) this initial suggestion was mentioned in the talk page when the Algeria ethnic groups tap had 1 source this morning and that was before 12:50, 18 August 2024‎. When the user Skitash had changed the source after talk in the article had failed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Algeria#Ethnic_groups_Algeria . the edit by Skitash was DURING the time the dispute resolution has already been issued and after he was informed not to make any changes until the dispute had been resolved, I must remind you that Editing a Wikipedia article while a dispute resolution process is ongoing is considered a violation of Wikipedia's policies, specifically regarding edit warring and disruption of the consensus-building process. so instead of Only the CIA factbook website the user deliberately edited the article after he was warned also (refer to edit summary in Algeria article). So when the article had sourced the CIA fact book it mentions that "although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab". the User Skitash deduced that 85% of algerians are arabs which is considered original research by wikipedia, for proof you can look at the talk page in article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Algeria#Ethnic_groups_Algeria where user skitash uses the source that mentions the opposite of what he claims. the user blatantly violated Wikipedia terms of dispute resolution. concerning your second question after the user violated Wikipedia terms of dispute resolution and added from study.com. the website also mentions "most Algerians are genetically Berber", here in our discussion on ethnicity it is important to note that most algerians are ethnically berber from the sources provided by him, identifying with arab is a cultural phenomena not an ethnic phenomena, and therefore it should not be in the ethnicity tab of algeria. the number provided of algerians being 85% arab is the user's own conlusions and do not exist in the CIA factbook about algeria, in fact the source warns again that 'almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab'. in conclusion the user not only violated Wikipedia's terms but also his sources contradict his claims. thank you again for taking time to provide dispute resolution Kovcszaln6 Potymkin (talk) 16:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC) @Potymkin: I asked you to indicate your acceptance of DRN Rule D. This was not stated. I also asked (and it's also in DRN Rule D) to comment on content, not contributor. At DRN, we deal with content issues, not conduct issues. Please rewrite your statement below keeping these in mind. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 16:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC) Thank you for elaborating, I state that I accept DRN Rule D. Answering questions : 1. Are you fine with the current state of Algeria#Ethnic_groups or would you also like changes to that? I am not fine with the current state of it, I propose either we insert : - Arab-Amazigh (99%) | Primarily Amazigh (15%) | European (less than 1%) - Arab Amazigh 99%, (of which 15% identify as Primarily Amazigh) | European (less than 1%) 2.Considering this, could you elaborate on what changes you want to the infobox and why? - Arab-Amazigh (99%) | Primarily Amazigh (15%) | European (less than 1%) - Arab Amazigh 99%, (of which 15% identify as Primarily Amazigh) | European (less than 1%) Why ? It is whats mentioned in the CIA factbook about algeria "although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab, only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population", most algerians are ethnically berber from the sources provided ,identifying with arab is a cultural phenomena not an ethnic phenomena, and therefore it should not be in the ethnicity tab of algeria. I hope this clears up the matter, let me know if you have any further questions. Potymkin (talk) 16:36, 18 August 2024 (UTC) @Kovcszaln6 I am willing to accept DRN Rule D. Unfortunately, it appears that the root of this edit conflict stems from a misunderstanding. Ethnicity is based on self-identification, language, culture, history, etc. Potymkin appears to equate ethnicity with genetics, which is completely unrelated and not determining of ethnicity. According to the lead in ethnicity, "Ethnic groups may share a narrow or broad spectrum of genetic ancestry, depending on group identification, with some groups having mixed genetic ancestry". Although CIA World Factbook may correctly note that most Algerians had Berber ancestors, most Algerians today identify as Arab, speak Arabic, and practice Arab culture, therefore making them ethnically Arab. Britannica supports this by stating "More than three-fourths of the country is ethnically Arab". Additionally, the CIA World Factbook source states that only 15% of the population identifies as Berber, meaning that the remaining 85% identify as non-Berbers (i.e., Arab). Skitash (talk) 16:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC) First statement by moderator (Algeria) Thank you for the responses. Skitash pointed out that ethnicity is based on self-identification, not genetics. Potymkin, considering this, do you still want changes in the article (the same or different)? If you do, please also consider the other sources. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 17:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC) First statement by editors (Algeria) Ethnicity is fundamentally rooted in genetics rather than self-identification, as it is defined by inherited biological traits that are passed down through generations. this shows clearly on a scholarly concensus that although the Romans for instance identified as being desendant of the Trojan race and argued for such in their history and mythology, no historian ever considers Romans as Trojans, the same is applied to Algeria with researchers and scholars who identify algerians as Amazighs or Berbers or Arabized Berbers or Arabized Amazighs but never consider Algerians ethnically arab as does CIA factbook and Study.com sources. Scholars argue that genetic markers provide clear evidence of distinct ethnic groups, which are identified based on shared ancestry and genetic lineage. For instance, genetic studies have revealed significant differences in DNA sequences among various ethnic populations, supporting the idea that ethnicity is biologically determined rather than merely a social construct. While self-identification plays a role in how individuals perceive and express their ethnic identity, it cannot alter the underlying genetic reality that distinguishes one ethnic group from another. As noted by Cavalli-Sforza et al., "genetic evidence provides the most objective means to determine ethnicity" (Cavalli-Sforza, Luca (1994). The History and Geography of Human Genes. Princeton University Press. pp. 19–22. ISBN 9780691087504.). Furthermore, research by Rosenberg et al. highlights how genetic clustering aligns closely with traditional ethnic and geographical boundaries (Rosenberg, Noah A. (2002). "Genetic Structure of Human Populations". Science. 298 (5602): 2381–2385. doi:10.1126/science.1078311.). Therefore, while self-identification is an important aspect of personal and cultural identity, it does not override the genetic basis that defines ethnicity. considering the academic concensus on the matter, one can hardly find in the page about the holy roman empire that it is composed of ethnic romans even if they identified as such, the population of the HRE for example is made up of Germans and scholars have solid concensus over such as they do with algeria from where you can see in the CIA factbook quote "although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab", the CIA fact book does not consider Algeria as made out of ethnic arabs and puts in the stats: Arab-Amazigh (99%) | Primarily Amazigh (15%) | European (less than 1% I would still like changes to the page on Ethnicity in Algeria to meet such scholarly requirements Potymkin (talk) 19:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC) "Ethnicity is fundamentally rooted in genetics rather than self-identification" Ethnicity says otherwise. I'm not quite sure why this conversation is shifting into a scientific debate but it is a known fact that ethnic groups, like race, are social constructs based on self-identification. Ethnicities emerge through a process called ethnogenesis, where groups of people begin to identify with one another. According to BioMed Central, "Indeed, the terms race and ethnicity exist purely as social constructs and must not be used interchangeably with genetic ancestry. There is no scientific evidence that the groups we traditionally call “races/ethnicities” have distinct, unifying biological or genetic basis". For instance, an Algerian that only speaks Arabic and practices Arab culture has no reason to identify as a Berber based solely on genetics. Unlike genetics, ethnic identity is fluid, with individuals or groups sometimes changing or adapting their ethnic identity due to historical factors. Today, Algeria is predominantly Arab due to Arabization throughout history, "a process of cultural change in which a non-Arab society becomes Arab". Likewise, the vast majority of modern Syrians identify as Arabs and are regarded as such, despite being mostly descended from ancient Arameans. Skitash (talk) 19:45, 18 August 2024 (UTC) In the previous version Skitach claimed that the sources were in the demographics section. One of these sources was genetic. Now that genetic sources give something else, he says that genetics is no longer suitable... the mentions which affirm that the Arabs are descendants of Arabized Amazigh are systematically removed by Skitach: exemple Britanica: More than three-fourths of the country is ethnically Arab, though most Algerians are descendants of ancient Amazigh groups who mixed with various invading peoples from the Arab Middle East, southern Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa. Arab invasions in the 8th and 11th centuries brought only limited numbers of new people to the region but resulted in the extensive Arabization and Islamization of the indigenous Amazigh population when you read the article Arab migrations to the Maghreb, everything has been done to make people believe in a replacement of the Amazigh natives by a population originating from the Arab peninsula, by a diversion of sources. Here we are in continuity with this POV, why not mention the genetic elements in the body of the text (excluding infobox) first? I have the impression of having a contradictor closed to any other option than the one he defends in disregard of the diversity of sources and WP:NPOV. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC) Second statement by moderator (Algeria) Thank you. There appears to be discussion happening at Talk:Algeria#Ethnic_groups_Algeria involving more editors, and this mediation doesn't seem like it's going anywhere. So I would suggest that you could continue the discussion on the talk page involving the other editors, and if that fails maybe consider an WP:RfC. Are you guys fine with that? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 10:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC) Second statement by editors (Algeria) @Kovcszaln6: It actually seems this one-on-one discussion is progressing much more smoothly compared to the other, if we set aside the baseless comments made here by the other editor who only jumped in to violate DRN Rule D. So, I would greatly appreciate it if we could continue our discussion here. I'm open to reaching a common ground to resolve this dispute by proposing a percentage range in the infobox: 75–85% Arab, 15–25% Berber, based on the following sources: Reference World Atlas: Everything You Need to Know About Our Planet Today: "Ethnic groups: Arab 75%, Berber 24%, European and Jewish 1%" Britannica: Algeria: "More than three-fourths of the country is ethnically Arab". Algeria: History & Background: "The combined Arab-Berber people comprise more than 99 percent of the population (Arabs approximately 80 percent; Berbers 20 percent), with Europeans less than one percent". Changing Female Literacy Practices in Algeria "Ethnically the population is made up of about 80% Arabic and 20% Berber". Historical Dictionary of Algeria "Most Algerians, approximately 85 percent of the population, today claim an Arab background". Algeria Ethnic Groups "Partly due to the strong association between Islam and Arab identity, there is a fair amount of social pressure in Algeria to identify with Arab ancestry. In fact, roughly 85% of the nation identifies much more strongly with their Arab heritage than their Berber heritage." Please tell me what you think. Skitash (talk) 01:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Once again you select the information from the articles that suit you without explaining the concepts which is a misappropriation of sources. For example, as hidden in Britanica “Arab invasions in the 8th and 11th centuries brought only limited numbers of new people to the region but resulted in the extensive Arabization and Islamization of the indigenous Amazigh population.” education.stateuniversity.com is this a serious source? following an official or academic publication? Is « Changing Female Literacy Practices » in Algeria a source focused enough on the subject? Why not retain other information in Algeria Ethnic Groups : « Officially 99% of Algerian identify as ethnically Arab-Berber" [...] So, if most Algerians are genetically Berber, what does this mean? Berbers are an ethnic group ancestrally indigenous to North Africa, also called the Amazigh. Historically, there was little to no semblance of Berber identity, with Berber groups identifying with tribes or clans rather than nationality or ethnicity. This is another reason that Arab identity became so strong; Berber identity was too varied to form the basis of a national identity. ». Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:30, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Third statement by moderator (Algeria) Thank you, we can continue this dispute here then. Potymkin are you fine with the above suggestion? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 07:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Third statement by editors (Algeria) A fundamental aspect of the sources is systematically eliminated: the Arabized Berber character of the Arabs. This is why the CIA Factbook speaks of « Arab-Amazigh ». This Amazigh origin of the « Arabs » is obscured on article. Britanica : « Arab invasions in the 8th and 11th centuries brought only limited numbers of new people to the region but resulted in the extensive Arabization and Islamization of the indigenous Amazigh population. » CIA Factbook : «  although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab » There are other sources such as Dmoh Bacha which, based on Bekada's study of the Algerian population, gives different figures: « — 65% d’ascendance ethnique berbère — 15% d’ascendance ethnique arabe du côté paternel — 20% d’ascendance diverses, Afrique sub-saharienne, Europe, Asie centrale. (Bekada, 2013) » Unfortunately all the elements which do not point to the origin of the Algerian population from the Arabian Peninsula are eliminated and we keep sources and notions which make us believe the opposite. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Please stop trying to change the definition of ethnicity. The infobox literally links to ethnic group, which, as the lead explains, is based on self-identity, language, and culture—not genetics. The multiple sources I provided clearly make use of the words "ethnically" and "ethnic groups". "Arabized Berbers" are ethnically Arab by virtue of their identity, language, and culture. As for your source, it is 1) about genetics rather than ethnic groups, 2) WP:UNDUE, and 3) pertains to the entire Maghreb rather than specifically to Algeria, as it clearly states "Les tests ADN donnent un rapport génétique Arabe/Berbère au Maghreb". Being "Arab" does not imply originating from the Arabian Peninsula (not sure where you got that idea). This is the same reason the infobox in Syria doesn't say "74–75% Arabized Arameans" but rather "74–75% Arabs". @Kovcszaln6 Could you please ensure that this editor who just joined the conversation abides by DRN Rule D? Skitash (talk) 12:52, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Fourth statement by moderator (Algeria) @Monsieur Patillo: If you would like to participate in this discussion please read and indicate your acceptance of Wikipedia:DRN Rule D (more details here). Considering that ethnicity is based on self-identification and not genetics, are you fine with Skitash's recommendation? If not, please elaborate. This question towards Potymkin is still pending. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 13:06, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Fourth statement by editors (Algeria) Kovcszaln6 Excuse me, this is the first time I have participated in this mediation format. I of course accept the rules. I disagree with Skitach's assertion. I'm answering for the genetics/ethnicity aspect (I hope this is the right place). The concept of ethnicity includes an aspect of origins or biology (which is only one criterion among others unlike the old concept of race). The study of human migrations using DNA should therefore not be ruled out. As a source I will cite the article Identités biologiques, identités sociales et conflits ethniques en Afrique subsaharienne, section « L’ethnie entre biologie et culture : la notion d’origine »(Ethnicity between biology and culture: the notion of origin): «The notion of “common origin”, in this definition, appears to constitute the link between biology and culture.» If the question of ethnology is "what is the population of Algeria", genetic or biological data cannot be excluded. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 14:39, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Respectfully, your response suggests confirmation bias and cherry picking sources. Kindly take a look at the ethnicity Wikipedia article and its sources. Thank you. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 14:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC) if the source explains that there are Arabized Berbers and that the CIA factbook defines: "Arab-Amazigh" as 99% of the ethnic group, it is not up to Skitach to deny the existence of this notion. The comparison argument look likz a WP:NOR argument, because the Berber or Arameans groups have their specificity. The Berbers and their language are a very vibrant cultural group, and aspects of North African culture are not limited to the language spoken (North African cuisine, clothing, such as couscous or burnous, are markers of Berber culture...) The notion of having a large majority of Amazigh is not only found in genetic studies or sources on genetics. Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, «More than 70% of North Africains of Amazigh originis speak no Amazigh languages, but Arabic languages only. In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin, as are 60% in Tunisia and Libya.». Monsieur Patillo (talk) 14:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Let's stop trying to redefine ethnicity, or we'll be stuck here forever. Ethnicity is there for you to read if you want, and I am not willing to debate this further. Government censuses typically allow individuals to self-identify their ethnic affiliation, which forms the basis for determining a country's ethnic percentages. There's no practical way to determine genetic groups or ancestral backgrounds, especially given centuries of mixing and migrations in Algeria. No one is purely one thing, and identifying everyone's ancestry is impossible. Therefore, we must rely on how individuals self-identify based on language and culture. Let's focus on the fact that the vast majority of sources divide Algeria's population into 75–85% Arab and 15–25% Berber. Let's move on from the genetics debate. Like I said before, there is no such thing as "Arab-Amazigh", and that article was redirected because that term is WP:UNDUE and lacks a definition. The CIA source is only there to confirm that only 15% of the population identifies as Berber. Skitash (talk) 14:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Fifth statement by moderator (Algeria) Debating the definition of "ethnicity" is outside of the scope of this dispute. So the question still is (to both Potymkin and Monsieur Patillo): are you fine with Skitash's suggestion? Please also take into consideration the sources that were cited. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 15:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Fifth statement by editors (Algeria) Although Skitash offers concessions concerning the percentages of the ethnicities the sources are solid that almost the entire population is Ethnically north african berber as @Monsieur Patillo suggests, both sides have made their points. a discussion in the Talk page has made several moderators step in and make a final edit to the Algeria article. I suggest we wrap up this dispute @Kovcszaln6, the admins have made final suggestions to end all ethnicity talk in the Algeria page once and for all. thank you very much for your mediation, it is greatly appreciated. It wouldn't be your problem from now on since the admins have taken over, I greatly suggest closing this talk page.--Potymkin (talk) 22:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC) The Wikipedia article on ethnicity does not itself exclude certain biological traits ( «Ethnic groups may share a narrow or broad spectrum of genetic ancestry, depending on group identification, with some groups having mixed genetic ancestry»). So why want to exclude them at all costs? The notion of African-American cited in the text is based solely on culture? or a supposed common origin? In your opinion, there is nothing to say and nothing to learn from the multiple studies on the Algerian population in the Article dedicated to Algeria? It is then asserted by skitach: "There's no practical way to determine genetic groups or ancestral backgrounds, especially given centuries of mixing and migrations in Algeria. No one is purely one thing, and identifying everyone's ancestry is impossible." Please avoid these kinds of personal digressions. Nobody says that there is genetic purity. Only there are genetic studies to trace the origin of human migrations. Studies particularly on haplogroups. They reveal that the Algerian and North African population is (for the most part) not linked to migrations from the Arab peninsula. It is an intangible population data. I remind you that in the initial version of the Algeria article, there was reference (source) on genetics which did not bother anyone as long as it was supposed to prove that there were 85% « Arabs »... The notion of Arab-Amazigh is quite simply that of Arab-Berber, it is extremely common, especially in French, to describe the ethnology or sociology of the Maghreb. There is no shortage of exemples : Google Books, or other or more specifically to Algeria. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 15:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Like @Kovcszaln6 said, debating the definition of ethnicity is outside of the scope of this dispute. So, let's put an end to this genetic debate. Ethnic groups are social constructs based on self-identity.[1][2][3][4][5][6] Full stop. There is no debate surrounding this. Again, are you fine with this suggestion? Skitash (talk) 15:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Conception of separating the biological from the cultural (all the articles you cite are in this ideological school and centered on the USA) comes from a late school of sociology (notably A. Wimmer) which itself responds to the old conception in force in the United States. After in the United States and in Western countries a constructivist definition is in vogue but it is itself subject to criticism and above all it does not have a monopoly on the definition of ethnicity . BRUN Solène, COSQUER Claire, « 5. Race et ethnicité, des concepts complémentaires ou concurrents ? », dans : , Sociologie de la race. sous la direction de BRUN Solène, COSQUER Claire. Paris, Armand Colin, « 128 », 2022, p. 61-72. «  Alors que la race supposerait ce substrat biologique, voire génétique, l’ethnicité renverrait à des marqueurs entièrement culturels, c’est-à-dire à une origine définie par la communauté culturelle, l’identification à une patrie ou à des traditions communes. [...] la distinction entre la race comprise comme « fixe, imposée et excluante » et l’ethnicité décrite comme « fluide, auto-attribuée et volontaire » ne rend pas justice aux situations dans lesquelles des groupes désignés comme « ethniques » sont soumis à une ségrégation forcée, à l’exclusion ou à une domination « d’habitude associée à la race » comme c’est le cas par exemple pour les Serbes au Kosovo ou les Albanien·ne·s en Serbie [...] Face aux difficultés posées par cette division stricte entre race et ethnicité, de nombreux·ses auteur·e·s n’opèrent pas de distinction essentielle entre les termes et les utilisent de façon relativement indifférenciée. D’autres considèrent la distinction superflue et insistent alors sur la fluidité conceptuelle entre des termes qui doivent l’un et l’autre être compris comme des constructions sociales, plaidant ainsi pour un dépassement d’une opposition comprise comme trop réductrice [...] Pour A. Wimmer, la race est une forme d’ethnicité où les traits phénotypiques opèrent comme les marqueurs déterminants de l’appartenance, déterminant ainsi des « groupes ethnosomatiques ». Cette conception va toutefois, de l’avis même de A. Wimmer, à l’encontre des définitions communément admises aux États-Unis de la race et de l’ethnicité, pour lesquelles l’ethnicité serait bien plus une sous-division de la race que le contraire . Selon l’auteur, ce découpage a l’avantage de permettre une meilleure comparabilité internationale des travaux s’inscrivant dans le champ des études sur la race et l’ethnicité, en déconstruisant son indexation sur le sens commun états-unien. Si la proposition formalisée par A. Wimmer est à plusieurs égards séduisante, elle ne répond qu’en partie au double problème identifié plus haut. En effet, elle maintient une définition de l’ethnicité centrée sur l’auto-identification, sous laquelle sa propre définition de la race comme « ethnosomatique » peine à être subsumée. Surtout, elle reconduit la ligne de partage entre biologique et culturel, transformant simplement cette division en subdivision.  » If you want to play personal beliefs you can even trip yourself up. Because nowadays people who use these genetic tests as a subjective relationship to their ethnicity are an object of social study. The only element reported by the ethnicity article is that ethnicity is not based primarily on biology (real or supposed) but primarily on social criteria. I repeat that when the genetics articles were supposed to prove that there were 85% Arabs, they did not pose a problem. I therefore think that the question is poorly posed, rather than knowing if we necessarily fall into the field of ethnology, we should define in which field/section the genetic data have their place ? In other words, if you separate them from the study of the population and ethnic groups in Algeria, where will you put them? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC) This is getting tedious. This wall of text only repeats the same points you made before, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of sources agree that ethnicity is a social construct. @Kovcszaln6 has already pointed out that the definition of ethnicity is outside the scope of this dispute. I think it’s about time we move on from this. Skitash (talk) 21:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC) In this case let's move forward and answer my last point. What to do with these sources on genetics? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 22:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC) @Monsieur Patillo You could include them under a new genetics subheading underneath Algeria#Demographics, ensuring that all significant viewpoints regarding Algeria’s genetic makeup are given appropriate weight. However, they certainly do not belong in Algeria#Ethnic groups or the ethnic groups parameter in the infobox. I hope this is a common ground we can agree on. @Potymkin No administrators have intervened and no final decision was made; that was just another editor suggesting that we revise the lead (and not delete anything), and they seem to be unaware that there is a WP:DRN discussion regarding this. The infobox should stay as it is until we conclude the discussion here per WP:STATUSQUO. As for your claim that "the entire population is Ethnically north african berber", that is factually incorrect. How many times must we reiterate the fact that ethnicity is a social construct based on identity? All the sources provided here correctly make use of the words "ethnically" and "ethnic groups" and agree on an overall ethnic range of 75–85% Arab and 15–25% Berber. The sources definitely don't say what you claimed they say. Skitash (talk) 23:32, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Sixth statement by moderator (Algeria) Thank you for the responses. I'm not entirely sure what Potymkin meant here; if you no longer want to participate in this discussion that's fine. Skitash has suggested that both kinds of sources could be used as long as they are cleary presented and separated, and other rules are followed. Are you guys fine with that? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 08:19, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Sixth statement by editors (Algeria) How many times must we reiterate the fact that ethnicity is a social construct based on identity?  : As long as these kinds of unfounded assertions are brandished as law. “Our ancestors the Gauls” is a social construction and a widely shared discourse, particularly at certain times, that makes it no ethnic reality in France, or in its colonies. As the source Dmoh Bacha says that it is a look and an "ethnic ancestry" I do not think that the genetic data can be purely and simply removed from the ethnic section. This would mean that you with your definition "correct" the sources. This is not the role of a Wikipedian. In the infobox, what information to put etc... that's another problem, actually. what to do with the ubiquitous mention that Arabs are Arabized Amazigh and not nationals of the Arabian Peninsula. This major fact is passed over in silence in all your writings. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 10:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC) What bothers me is wanting to “shut up shop” on ethnology studies by saying that this or that discipline has nothing to do with it. I think we are overstepping our role in such assertions. Especially since social constructivism is a theory that is not shared by all specialists. In reality the constructivism that they want us to endorse is the political discourse of Napoleon III, and Ben Bella, of an entirely Arab Algeria without any form of objectivity (cultural: culinary dishes, clothing, etc.), historical (large arabisation of amazigh people) or biological ( study by objective data of the population...). We are not moving towards a neutral compilation of sources on Algeria, its people, its ethnic groups but towards the sacralization of the old state lie, which is thus engraved in stone because it is an internal « feeling » by some of those administered. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 10:17, 21 August 2024 (UTC) "As long as these kinds of unfounded assertions are brandished as law." This is a solid fact.[7][8][9][10][11][12] Even Kovcszaln6 has said that ethnicity is based on self-identification, not genetics, and that this is beyond the scope of this dispute. I'm astonished that you're not familiar with the concept of ethnicity, and at this point, you're just WP:BLUDGEONING the discussion. "Our ancestors the Gauls" We're discussing ethnicity, not ancestry. I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. "I do not think that the genetic data can be purely and simply removed from the ethnic section." Yes it can, and it's supposed to be. Take a look at other Wikipedia articles on countries. None of them intertwine ethnicity and genetics. They either separate them into different sections or omit genetics entirely (because of how unimportant it is nowadays). "what to do with the ubiquitous mention that Arabs are Arabized Amazigh and not nationals of the Arabian Peninsula." Arabs are Arabs by virtue of identity, language, and culture. They identify as Arabs. Why insist on labeling them as "Arabized Berbers" when many could be of different origins? Berbers aren't the only people that exist in Algeria. Skitash (talk) 10:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Why insist on calling them “Arabized Berbers” when many could be of different origins? Because the sources tell us that they are of Arabized Berber origin... quite simply. Hiding it is pov-pushing. Typical phrases like “an Arab is an Arab” are misleading. An « Arab » does not have the same reality in Arabia, Syria or the Maghreb, especially after the connotation of political pan-Arabism. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Whatever you're saying makes no sense because the vast majority of sources say the following: A Political and Economic Dictionary of the Middle East "The population was estimated at 32,277,942 in July 2002, of which 75% were Arabs, 24% Berbers, and 1% others (mostly Europeans)." FT World Desk Reference 2005 "Arab 75%, Berber 24%, European and Jewish 1%. The population is predominantly Arab, under 30 years of age and urban; some 24% are Berber. More than 85% speak Arabic and 99% are Sunni Muslim" Algerian Languages in Education: Conflicts and Reconciliation "In Algeria, on the other hand, Berberists supported by France ask to expand the use of Tamazight even on Arabs who represent 80% of Algerian population." Reference World Atlas: Everything You Need to Know About Our Planet Today: "Ethnic groups: Arab 75%, Berber 24%, European and Jewish 1%" Guide to African Political and Economic Development "Algeria. Leading ethnic group: Arab 80%. Other groups: Berber 20%." Britannica: Algeria: "More than three-fourths of the country is ethnically Arab". Algeria: History & Background: "The combined Arab-Berber people comprise more than 99 percent of the population (Arabs approximately 80 percent; Berbers 20 percent), with Europeans less than one percent". Changing Female Literacy Practices in Algeria "Ethnically the population is made up of about 80% Arabic and 20% Berber". Historical Dictionary of Algeria "Most Algerians, approximately 85 percent of the population, today claim an Arab background". Algeria Ethnic Groups "Partly due to the strong association between Islam and Arab identity, there is a fair amount of social pressure in Algeria to identify with Arab ancestry. In fact, roughly 85% of the nation identifies much more strongly with their Arab heritage than their Berber heritage." CIA World Factbook "only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population." Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East "Algerian Arabs constitute 80 percent of the population, the remaining group being mainly BERBER (primarily the Kabyles living in Kabylie and the Chaouias of the Awras mountains)." Extremisms in Africa Volume 2 "The majority of Algerians are Arab, but around 20% are Berbers. Routledge Handbook of Minorities in the Middle East "Berbers constitute roughly 20% of Algeria's population of 39 million. Two-thirds of them (more than 5 million) are Kabyles, originating in the mountainous Kabylie region between Algiers and Constantine, whose dialect is Taqbaylit." It's evident that most sources unanimously and correctly use the term ethnically to describe Algeria as being composed of 75–85% Arab and 15–25% Berber. Skitash (talk) 11:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC) As long as you cherry-pick and divert sources, you won't find solutions. I have already corrected several diversion of sources above (ex: Britanica, CIA Factbook [for which you persist in ignoring the central information of 99% Arab-Amazigh]), I am not going to do it again every day. We can also add even more sources in the sense of sources which give 99% Arab-Amazigh (ex : Oxford Business Group, The Repport, p.10, ''Arround 99% of population is Arab-Berber ethnicity,''' which means''' that nearly all of the citizenry is descended from Berber or Amazigh populations – the indigenous pre-Islamic peoples of North Africa.''. This information which is in several sources you refuse it for ideological reasons. In addition, it will be necessary to identify quality and reliable sources (WP:RELIABLE / WP:CS). I think it will be the role of moderation to define the scope and quality of the sources to be used to avoid the phenomenon of infinite cherry-picking. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 13:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC) 1. There is no cherrypicking here; this is just what the vast majority of sources state. Ethnically, Algeria is 75–85% Arab and 15–25% Berber, and that's a fact. I couldn't possibly find any sources implying that more than 25% of the population identifies as ethnically Berber or less than 75% identify as ethnically Arab. 2. I've already explained why "Arab-Berber" is not used, and I won't repeat myself. Feel free to check Talk:Arab-Berber or the article's revision history. Your source says it refers to descendants of Berbers, others define it as people of mixed Arab and Berber descent, while other sources just use the term to group Arabs and Berbers together. Either way, the term is WP:UNDUE, only used in passing, and has no real ethnological value. Skitash (talk) 13:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC) 1) This is false because you maintain the confusion between minority groups and ethnic appreciation. When the latter is not formulated your source cannot be retained, much less to deduce that the rest is necessarily composed of Arabs. For example: Encyclopedia of the World's Minorities, 2013 explains: Minority Population: Berbers 7 million, Sahrawi 120,000 Ethnic groups: Arab-Berber (99%) Europeans (less than 1%). So in the following sources you extrapolate ethnic configurations from minority or linguistic groups : 1) Routledge Handbook of Minorities in the Middle East 2)Extremisms in Africa Volume 2 - Google Livres 3)Algerian Languages in Education: Conflicts and Reconciliation The Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East source cannot be consulted for detailed notes and as you do not have to reliably reproduce the nuances in several sources, a simple truncated quotation cannot be taken into account. We also have many sources which are quite poor in value: 1 )Reference World Atlas: Everything You Need to Know About Our Planet Today, 2)Changing Female Literacy Practices in Algeria 3)FT World Desk Reference 2005 . These are general works that are neither focused on the subject nor provide an academic point of view. 2) Please do not use Wikipedia as a source for Wikipedia: [WP:OTHERCONTENT], but base your analyzes on sources. Oxford Business Group, The Repport, p.10, Arround 99% of population is Arab-Berber ethnicity, which means that nearly all of the citizenry is descended from Berber or Amazigh populations – the indigenous pre-Islamic peoples of North Africa. Arab-Amazigh 99%, European less than 1% note: although almost all Algerians are Amazigh in origin and not Arab, only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population From the independence manifestos this notion of Arab-Berber exists as we can see in this source : René Gallissot, 1986, Maghreb-Algérie, classes et nation : Libération nationale et Guerre d'Algérie, « Les Arabo-berbères forment le peuple Algérien [...] » Pierre Caravano, Algérie, Le grand malentendu : «Les Omeyyades ne se contentent pas de dominer les autochtones, ils viennent pour répendre la parole du prophète Mahomet. Ils vont se mêler à la population et creer en quelques dizaines d'années une nouvelle ethnie arabo-berbère. » Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, «More than 70% of North Africains of Amazigh originis speak no Amazigh languages, but Arabic languages only. In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin, as are 60% in Tunisia and Libya.». We note that in academic sources the Arab-Berber concept and ethnicity is widely present. This is something other than Atlases for adolescents, or popularization and tourist guides: these types of sources must be excluded. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 15:26, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Unfortunately, this conversation is not going anywhere since you seem unwilling to accept the actual definition of ethnicity in spite of what the vast majority of reliable sources say. You're also insisting that we use the term "Arab-Berber" despite the consensus among editors to redirect the article. Since you're not open to reaching an agreement or accepting a compromise, it appears that we'll have to retain the version of the article as it was prior to this discussion per WP:NOCONSENSUS. Skitash (talk) 15:52, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Let's stop this. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 08:23, 22 August 2024 (UTC) The following is a closed discussion. Please do not modify it. You want to use a closed chat that only validates your pov-pushing. We always bring you more sources which prove that your presuppositions are erroneous but you fall back on them with the principle of not changing anything. Your status quo method is also wrong, you have allowed yourself to change the article several times. Right that you visibly deny to other contributors (WP:OWN). You even despise your interlocutors to the point that you add modifications claiming a consensus, with contested sources. Moreover, the old version is not the one which goes in the direction of the diversion that you introduced. Since the end of 2022 you have imposed your source diversionat wear and no intermittent editing wars while the old version was faithful to the source 99% / 1%. Since then there has been an editing conflict almost every 3 months on this infobox. The status quo assumes a reliable and verifiable version and not imposed by force. So your calculation of wearing down your interlocutors and maintaining a status quo by appropriating the article is frankly the worst. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:54, 21 August 2024 (UTC) That's fine, we can revert to the 85% Arab, 15% Berber version that was in place before this discussion if that's what you'd prefer. However, your understanding of the status quo, like your concept of ethnicity, is incorrect. We don't roll back several hundred edits to a revision in 2022. @Kovcszaln6 Unfortunately, this user is only casting aspersions and making personal attacks in violation of DRN Rule D, while refusing to reach a compromise despite the myriad of sources that were provided here. I don't think this conversation is going anywhere. Thank you for your time. Skitash (talk) 22:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC) 1. Biological and Genetic Basis of Ethnicity Skitash's assertion that ethnicity is purely a matter of self-identification without any biological or genetic basis is not supported by the majority of scholarly research. Ethnicity is a complex concept that indeed involves a combination of cultural, linguistic, and self-identification factors; however, it is also rooted in shared ancestry and genetic markers. As noted by scholars in the field of population genetics, certain ethnic groups can be distinguished by common genetic traits, which are passed down through generations and often correlate with geographical and historical factors. For instance, the study by Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994) highlights how genetic clusters correspond to known ethnic groups, reflecting shared ancestry and genetic heritage. Therefore, while self-identification plays a significant role in the conception of ethnicity, it cannot entirely disregard the biological and genetic components that contribute to the formation of ethnic groups . 2. Misinterpretation of CIA Factbook Data Regarding Skitash's interpretation of the CIA World Factbook's data on the ethnic composition of Algeria, his claim that "Arab-Amazigh" as a concept is meaningless is factually incorrect and not supported by reliable sources. The CIA Factbook states that Algeria's population is composed of "99% Arab-Berber" and "1% others." This classification acknowledges the significant ethnic overlap and cultural blending between Arabs and Berbers (Amazigh) in Algeria, reflecting the historical and social realities of the region. The term "Arab-Amazigh" is widely accepted in both academic and governmental contexts to describe the ethnic composition of North African populations, where intermarriage and cultural assimilation over centuries have led to a shared identity that encompasses both Arab and Amazigh heritage. Misrepresenting this classification by suggesting an arbitrary percentage like "85% Arab" without credible sources undermines the integrity of the information presented and violates Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. In summary, Skitash's positions are not aligned with the scholarly consensus on ethnicity or the reliable interpretation of CIA Factbook data. It is crucial to adhere to verifiable and high-quality sources when discussing such topics on Wikipedia to ensure that information is accurate and well-supported by evidence.Potymkin (talk) 22:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC) 1. "Skitash's assertion that ethnicity is purely a matter of self-identification without any biological or genetic basis is not supported by the majority of scholarly research" It's funny how you're still going on about this when Kovcszaln6 said this is beyond the scope of this discussion, but here are several sources which disprove your claim anyways: [13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24] + ethnicity. 2. I've already said that the CIA World Factbook source is only there to confirm that only 15% of the population identifies as Berber (just like what the vast majority of reliable sources say). Additionally, I suggest you read these sources that agree on a percentage range of 75–85% Arab, 15–25% Berber and stop reiterating the exact same tedious argument. Skitash (talk) 22:41, 21 August 2024 (UTC) Seventh statement by moderator (Algeria) Alright, so there is still misunderstandings about ethnicity. While there may be correlation between genetics and self-identification, it is still based on how the people identify themselves. Please do not continue arguing about this. Let's try to find a WP:MIDDLEGROUND: the infobox (since it says "ethnic groups") could have Skitash's suggestion, and in or near Algeria#Ethnic_groups a subheading could be created which talks about the genetics. Are you guys fine with that? Also, please try to minimize back-and-forth discussion; only start and participate in it if it's actually useful. Thanks. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 08:23, 22 August 2024 (UTC) Seventh statement by editors (Algeria) For my part, I have another proposal. As the debate on the ethnic definition is beyond us, I propose to put it aside. However, information which speaks of ethnic ancestry on the basis of haplogroup studies must be integrated into the Ethnic groups section and not another section because in the articles that I have seen none separates section for genetic/biologic data. The debate of what to include in the infobox is something else entirely at this point. On the other hand, it would be beneficial if Skitach refrained from modifying the infobox during our discussion while affirming the status quo. Or does he have more rights than the other contributors? for his infobox proposal it is a misappropriation of the source and it is absolutely out of the question to have in the infobox anything other than what is marked in black and white in a source (stop with unpublished summaries). He is so aware of this that he unduly changed the sources to prove his point. I therefore propose, for infobox, to return to the source 99% Arab-Berber 1% other and explain in a note what the feelings of one or the other are with contradictory figures. This is also the rather clever method used by the CIA Factbook source. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC) What part of "Please do not continue arguing about this" do you not understand? Genetics has no place in Algeria#Ethnic groups or the infobox. In fact, I couldn't find a single article that intertwines ethnicity and genetics in the way you are trying to do. Take a look at Iran#Ethnic groups, China#Ethnic groups, or Sudan#Ethnic groups. They all have sections on ethnic groups but not a single one of them discusses genetics at all. All you're trying to do here is push that WP:UNDUE source of yours in spite of the myriad of reliable sources that provide accurate ethnic breakdowns. Skitash (talk) 12:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC) After looking into featured country articles, I'd suggest you to look into and consider Madagascar#Ethnic_groups (also Bulgaria#Demographics and Canada#Ethnicity), as featured articles "are considered to be some of the best articles Wikipedia has to offer" and "are used by editors as examples for writing other articles". Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC) Also, another section isn't necessary (see Madagascar#Ethnic_groups). And don't edit the article regarding this issue during this discussion (but no need to revert the edit now). Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC) @Kovcszaln6 Although Madagascar is the only featured article in that list that incorporates genetics into its ethnic group section, it's important to note that none of those articles use genetic data in the infobox as Monsieur Patillo insists we should. Instead, they present ethnic percentages based purely on identity. I am willing to include genetic data at the end of Algeria#Ethnic groups, provided it is done neutrally and represents all significant viewpoints on Algeria’s genetic makeup fairly, in the condition that @Monsieur Patillo agrees to leave the infobox as it is with the reliably sourced 75–85% Arab/15–25% Berber percentage range. @Potymkin appears to be reiterating the exact same nonsensical points revolving around the definition of ethnicity and the CIA World Factbook source, and the claims they're making such as "The claim that "85% of Algerians are Arab" is not supported by reliable sources" only suggest that they haven't read the comments or the sources that were provided in this discussion. They continue to treat the CIA World Factbook as the sole source that exists regarding Algeria's ethnic makeup, despite being told ad nauseam why "99% Arab-Berber" is not being used in the article. Skitash (talk) 17:38, 22 August 2024 (UTC) The claim that "85% of Algerians are Arab" is not supported by reliable sources. According to the official website of the U.S. Embassy in Algiers, Algeria's population is predominantly of Arab-Berber (Tamazigh) origin, comprising 99% of the population. The website states: "Algeria is an ethnically diverse country, with a majority of its population (99%) being of arab-a mazigh(berber) origin. The Arab identity, which many Algerians associate with, is more of a cultural and linguistic identity than a strictly ethnic one." This information directly contradicts the assertion that 85% of Algerians are Arab. The Arab identity in Algeria is more accurately described as a cultural and linguistic identity rather than an ethnic one. Therefore, it is essential to adhere to reliable sources when discussing the ethnic composition of Algeria. you see @Kovcszaln6 ,The difference between the sources Skitash offers and what we have with CIA factbook is that source is official, belonging to the US embassy in Algiers, certified and approved by the People's Democratic Republic of Algeria's government as a factual source for the maintenance of diplomatic ties, the information sheet of the country profile is also approved by algeria and is considered fact. here the only 2 ethnicities mentioned are 99% Amazigh-Berber and 1% other, there is no mention of 85% arab anywhere, it is No original research by user Skitash. Potymkin (talk) 17:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC) https://2009-2017.state.gov/outofdate/bgn/algeria/33675.htm Potymkin (talk) 16:38, 22 August 2024 (UTC) Eighth statement by moderator (Algeria) The question is: are you guys fine with Skitash's suggestion? You don't have to 100% love it; can you live with it? If both of you could answer yes, then we reached consensus. Otherwise, I guess we could work on a formal RfC. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 18:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC) Also in your replies please indicate your opinions about Nikkimaria's suggestion. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 06:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC) Eighth statement by editors (Algeria) This seems like a much better solution - avoiding the whole issue in the lead and leaving discussion of disputed details to the body where it belongs. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)  Disagree with Skitach. I would like to point out that I did not insist on putting the getics in the infobox, but refused a separate section (like the Madagascar article which was cited). It is more of a transaction than a real encyclopedic work. It confirms the old unpublished synthesis in another form (with WP:UNDUE and against WP:NOV) Almost Agree with Nikkimaria because at least it's neutral while you search for a wording in the section and see later if a consensus emerges for the infobox. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 10:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC) My detailed explanations: I think that the readings to know if 85% of the population is Arab should be developed in the body of the article.This is not information that is included in all sources. The quality of the sources cited to multiply occurrences (general, imprecise work) is also problematic. 1) We are on a sensitive NPOV point: what is an Arab as an ethnic group in Algeria, Arabized Berbers? Arabs who have no other form of identity belonging? 2) There is also a diversity of opinions and readings on the subject (example: Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, "In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin"). So to have a restitution of the range of information, NPOV-compatible the details must be addressed in section. The infobox must ultimately remain fairly neutral in the detail itself (by addressing the notion of Arab-Berber, then by explaining the real or supposed divisions of this large group on section). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 10:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC) I agree with @Monsieur Patillo Statements, and I agree to use Nikkimaria's suggestion. Potymkin (talk) 10:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC) While I appreciate Nikkimaria's attempt to resolve the edit conflict, I still believe that we should maintain the status quo and retain the ethnic groups in the infobox. There is no divergence or dispute among reliable sources regarding ethnic identity. They all seem to agree on a 75–85% Arab / 15–25% Berber range. The only issue here is Monsieur Patillo's insistence to impose genetic data in the infobox, which is not the standard practice in any country-related Wikipedia article. Skitash (talk) 10:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC) The only issue here is Monsieur Patillo's insistence to impose genetic data in the infobox This point is specifically false (see my comment just above). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC) Ninth statement by moderator (Algeria) If I'm correct, we agreed that the body of the article will contain both sources, and the only issue remaining is what should be included in the infobox. There are three options: 1. The current state: 75–85% Arabs, 15–24% Berbers, 1% others 2. 99% Amazigh-Berber, 1% other 3. Nothing. Is this correct? Are there any suggestions? If not, I'll start the RfC like this. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 17:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC) Ninth statement by editors (Algeria) This is not what I asked. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 06:55, 24 August 2024 (UTC) The following is a closed discussion. Please do not modify it. Yes, I support including both sources in the main body of the article, but for the infobox, I believe we should retain the reliably sourced status quo and leave it as it is. Skitash (talk) 18:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC) I believe we should include the 2nd source because it is an officially recognized source by the algerian government for the US embassy in algiers about the Country Profile. Potymkin (talk) 18:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC) I think @Nikkimaria's suggestion is perfect, we should entirely delete ambiguous information about Algeria in the info box and the rest of the article. Nikkimaria's suggestion is supported by multiple parties in Talk:Algeria#Ethnic groups Algeria, whats more is that in country pages like Germany - Wikipedia or France - Wikipedia or Italy - Wikipedia its not included in country pages that we must define ethnic groups living in those country but for some neo colonial mindset its imperative that it should be included for Algeria - Wikipedia and not even by a version certified by the government such as the US embassy to Algeria country profile but using the 2nd hand sources @Skitash came up with. The suggestion to delete ambiguous information about Algeria's ethnic groups from the infobox and the rest of the article is entirely reasonable and necessary. Unlike Algeria, countries like Germany, France, and Italy do not include detailed ethnic group breakdowns in their Wikipedia country pages because such distinctions are not required for a general understanding of these nations. Applying the same standard to Algeria is not only consistent but also avoids reinforcing outdated and potentially divisive categorizations. Moreover, the inclusion of ethnic group data in Algeria's article, especially when based on second-hand sources, is problematic. It can perpetuate inaccuracies and misrepresentations, which is why relying on the most authoritative and neutral sources, such as the US Embassy's country profile, is critical. If these sources do not emphasize ethnic breakdowns, it suggests that such distinctions are either not relevant or not clearly defined. The insistence on including detailed ethnic information in Algeria's article, while it is not done for European countries, raises concerns about double standards and potentially a neo-colonial mindset. It is imperative to treat Algeria with the same respect and neutrality as any other nation, which includes being cautious about imposing unnecessary and potentially harmful classifications. In conclusion, deleting the ambiguous and potentially misleading ethnic group information will align the Algeria article with the standard practices applied to other country pages on Wikipedia. It will also ensure that the article remains neutral, accurate, and respectful of the complexities of Algerian identity, free from the imposition of external narratives. Potymkin (talk) 19:10, 23 August 2024 (UTC) Here are serious academic sources that prove the validity of the concept of Arab-Berber (even used by a minister), and the fact that there is a majority or even that the only ethnic group in Algeria, are Berbers and that the language is Arabic (words of the Algerian intellectual Ibn Badis). Skitach's version is definitively discredited. We can add to the range of proposals (80% of Amazigh/Berber) according to Matthias Brenzinger or all (according to Ibn Badis) (nothing justifies making proposals only going in the direction of Arabization if we want to be neutral and complete). * (en) Hsain Ilahiane, Historical Dictionary of the Berbers (Imazighen), Rowman & Littlefield, 27 mars 2017 (ISBN 978-1-4422-8182-0, lire en ligne) : Although Imazighen are unjustly considered a "minority" in North Africa, the area tha Berber speaker inhabit is vast, testifiying to the sheer size and broad spead of the Amazigh population. While official census data on the demographic characteristic and dynamics of Imazighen are sorely lacking, Amazigh scholars and activists claim that perhaps 80 to 90 percent of the North African population remains ethnically Amazigh, although a large segment of this percentage has been significantly Arabized. and has thereby lost its original identity markers. * Arabisation et bilinguisme, Les premiers pas d’une politique linguistique bilingue en Algérie aux lendemains de l’indépendance, Yasmina Cherrad, p. 385-402 : À travers le discours officiel se dessine nettement l’idée que, au fond définir sa langue et ses fonctions, c’est retrouver son être dans un pays où la colonisation a joué sur l’existence des langues locales pour créer des scissions intestines. Luttant contre la division créée par le pouvoir colonial, le discours politique de l’Algérie indépendante veut montrer que le pays n’est pas sur le plan ethnique « une juxtaposition d’arabes et de berbères, mais un mélange arabo-berbère qui, embrassant la même foi et adhérant au même système de valeurs est animé par l’amour de la même terre. » (Taleb el Ibrahimi, 1973, p. 131). (also cited in : Gérard Chaliand, Juliette Minces , L'Algérie indépendante : Bilan d'une révolution nationale, 1972, p.159 À ce problème s’ajoute celui de la revendication culturelle berbère. La question est, à vrai dire, d’une rare complexité. Pour plus de clarté, nous tenterons de partir du débat qui a eu lieu autour de la charte nationale, époque où un certain nombre d’orateurs, aussi bien berbérophones qu’arabophones, déplorèrent le fait que l’avant projet ne se soit pas arrêté plus longuement sur les origines berbères du pays. Ils déclarèrent que si le pouvoir voulait continuer l’action des réformistes, il ne fallait pas qu’il s’arrêtât à l’unique phrase du Cheikh Ben Badis « l’Algérie est ma patrie, l’arabe ma langue, l’islam ma religion » mais qu’il prenne également en considération une autre réplique du même penseur religieux dans laquelle il spécifiait : « la personnalité algérienne repose sur un trépied, l’ethnie berbère, la langue arabe, la religion musulmane ». M. Lacheraf et A. Taleb el Ibrahimi souligneront l’envergure du brassage des populations, et le premier n’hésitera pas à déclarer : Si, sur le plan des dialectes, il y a des arabophones et des berbérophones, nous pouvons dire tranquillement que, par leurs origines et leurs fonds culturels, les Algériens sont des arabo-berbères (M. Lacheraf, Algérie actualité, nos 820 à 821). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2024 (UTC) The only source here that provides an ethnic percentage range is Hsain Ilahiane's, which presents a Berberist claim, which, of course, is clearly WP:UNDUE and not neutral. Skitash (talk) 20:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC) Hsain Ilahiane (Ph.D., University of Arizona) is an applied cultural anthropologist and professor at the School of Middle Eastern & North African Studies and the W.A. Franke Honors College. His BNF notice mentioned only his role as a university professor. Your attacks aim to disqualify a source and an academic who does not suit your point of view. When Ibn Badis says that the ethnicity of the Algerian people is Berber, he mentions the entire population (which is why he does not give a percentage). unless he too is a Berberist according to you? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 21:54, 23 August 2024 (UTC) Hsain Ilahiane clearly attributes this claim to Berberist activists and scholars, stating "Amazigh scholars and activists claim that perhaps 80 to 90 percent of the North African population remains ethnically Amazigh". This is an WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE claim and obviously not a mainstream view. If you're interested in mainstream perspectives on Algeria's ethnic identity breakdown, please refer to the sources I've provided above. Ibn Badis passed away in 1940 and I don't understand how a quote of his is being used as a source for Algeria's contemporary ethnic breakdown. Skitash (talk) 22:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC) He actually quotes activists and schoolar but without saying that it is the monopoly of Berberist information. To know the quality of a source or information, you need to know how it is taken up by the specialist's peers. And this information is well taken up by: Jihad M. Hamdan and Sara Kessar: Language Policy and Planning in Algeria: Case Study of Berber Language Planning, ISSN 1799-2591 Theory and Practice in Language Studies, Vol. 13, No. 1, pp. 59-68, January 2023. In this academic article, the information is taken up and put into perspective with the work of another eminent specialist, Salem Chaker, director of the Berber Encyclopedia, which is a reference. It is noted worthy that up to present, no official and accurate census data regarding the Berbers’ demographics are available, yet scholars claim that approximately 80 to 90 per cent of the current population of North Africa remains ethnically Berbers, albeit a large portion of this proportion has been Arabized and has therefore lost their original Berber identity markers (Ilahiane, 2006, p. xxxvi). Following the same line of thought, Chaker (2004) asserts that “the huge majority of current Arabic speakers in the Maghreb are in fact Berbers who were “Arabized” at various times in history. Where you only see the citation of activism, opportunistically, this opinion is also the work of scholars, and cited by other scholars. Whether the activist world takes up academic elements to develop its discourse is another matter. Your argumentation looks more and more like a WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Ibn Baddis is not a WP:USEPRIMARY, in fact I am citing an academic article (Arabisation et bilinguisme, de Yasmina Cherrad) that is based on a quote from Ibn Badis among others (that of a minister in particular) and explains the path of identity design in Algeria and explains the path of the conception of identity in Algeria from full Arabization to the assumed Berber identity. I suggest you read UNDUE yourself: Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources.. the quality of your sources (popular book, general atlas, absence of academic or centered publications...), your interpretations and personal calculations (CIA Factbook for example) and the vagueness of the concepts (Arabs) is not correct, even less to impose a motion in the infobox. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC) Tenth statement by moderator (Algeria) It seems like I wasn't clear enough. Would an RfC with the options that I have provided be fine, or do you have suggestions to modify the options? Please just simply reply; do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. If there are no suggestions, I'll start an RfC like this. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 06:55, 24 August 2024 (UTC) Tenth statement by editors (Algeria) I added sources to support another motion to add: « 80-90% Berbers » .... The sources are in the drop-down box, should I republish them here below? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 11:53, 24 August 2024 (UTC) I said do not engage in back-and-forth discusson. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:09, 24 August 2024 (UTC) The following is a closed discussion. Please do not modify it. There is only one (Berberist and non-neutral) source that makes such a claim. That is clearly WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. Moreover, the source doesn't even mention Arabs or other ethnic groups at all. Skitash (talk) 12:00, 24 August 2024 (UTC) @Monsieur Patillo: So you'd like a fourth option, 80-90% Berbers, supported by these sources, correct? If yes, what would be the other 10-20%? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:09, 24 August 2024 (UTC) I'm in favor of starting an RfC with these three options. Skitash (talk) 11:59, 24 August 2024 (UTC) There is also this source cited above. Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, «More than 70% of North Africains of Amazigh originis speak no Amazigh languages, but Arabic languages only. In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin, as are 60% in Tunisia and Libya.». The outrageous remarks of Skitach, that the source of an eminent professor is Berberist are not admissible. On the other hand Jihad M. Hamdan and Sara Kessar of the University of Jordan who repeat these remarks and those of Chaker are also Berberists? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 12:15, 24 August 2024 (UTC) I add a source that clearly demonstrates that the ethnic concepts of Arabs vs Berbers are vague in the Maghreb. It therefore supports the thesis of Arab-Amaaigh, of a population mainly of Amazigh origin, or to put nothing. In any case, making us believe that Algerians are Arabs, without any form of nuance is a deception. Moha Ennaji, Multiculturalism and Democracy in North Africa : Aftermath of the Arab Spring, [25], Taylor & Francis: The terms "Arabs" and "Berbers” are misleading and not to be understood in an ethnic sense. The first inhabitants of North Africa were Berbers, and when Islam reached the region, it Islamized the population completely, but did not lead to its full Arabization. Today, it is preferable to refer to the populations in the region as Berberophone and Arabophone. In Morocco and Algeria, there is a linguistic issue, not a racial one, particularly the problematic of the integration of the Amazigh language in all walks of public life. Historically, many Berbers areas became completly arabized, and conversely many Arab zone were Berberized. Thus, the so called "Arabs" in Morocco and Algeria consist mainly of Arabized Berbers. In both countries, almorst everybody's origin is Berber, but only a minority speak Berber, about 40 percent and 15 percent of the total population of Morocco and Algeria, respectively (Chaker 1998:16; Benrabah, this volume). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 13:04, 24 August 2024 (UTC) Eleventh statement by moderator (Algeria) @Monsieur Patillo: 1. You'd like a fourth option, 80-90% Berbers, correct? 2. What is the other 10-20%? 3. What are the sources for this claim? If you have already listed them, please link to that; otherwise, please list them. 4. Do you have any other suggestions to the RfC? @Potymkin: Do you have any other suggestions to the RfC? @Skitash: 1. These sources support your preferred option, correct? 2. Do you have any other suggestions to the RfC? Please just simply respond; do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC) Eleventh statement by editors (Algeria) Eleventh statement by Monsieur Patillo 1.maybe better 70%-90%. 2.There is no indication (I am not going to do an original work) 3.* Matthias Brenzinger, Language diversity Endagered, p.128, More than 70% of North Africains of Amazigh originis speak no Amazigh languages, but Arabic languages only. In Morocco and Algerian, about 80% of the citizen are considered to be of Amazigh origin, as are 60% in Tunisia and Libya. (en) Hsain Ilahiane, Historical Dictionary of the Berbers (Imazighen), Rowman & Littlefield, 27 mars 2017 (ISBN 978-1-4422-8182-0, lire en ligne) : Although Imazighen are unjustly considered a "minority" in North Africa, the area tha Berber speaker inhabit is vast, testifiying to the sheer size and broad spead of the Amazigh population. While official census data on the demographic characteristic and dynamics of Imazighen are sorely lacking, Amazigh scholars and activists claim that perhaps 80 to 90 percent of the North African population remains ethnically Amazigh, although a large segment of this percentage has been significantly Arabized. and has thereby lost its original identity markers. Language Policy and Planning in Algeria: Case Study of Berber Language Planning, ISSN 1799-2591 Theory and Practice in Language Studies, Vol. 13, No. 1, pp. 59-68, January 2023. It is noted worthy that up to present, no official and accurate census data regarding the Berbers’ demographics are available, yet scholars claim that approximately 80 to 90 per cent of the current population of North Africa remains ethnically Berbers, albeit a large portion of this proportion has been Arabized and has therefore lost their original Berber identity markers (Ilahiane, 2006, p. xxxvi). Following the same line of thought, Chaker (2004) asserts that “the huge majority of current Arabic speakers in the Maghreb are in fact Berbers who were “Arabized” at various times in history. There are sources that do not give a percentage but also affirm that there is an Amazigh ethnic majority (which is something other than the language): “Amazighs in Algeria: an ethnic majority yet a linguistic minority”, by A. DOURARI, University Algiers2, CNPLET/MEN Algeria 4. I request that the restitution of sources be validated before the publication of RfC because some quotes from Skitach are deliberately truncated to mislead the reader. Exemple : CIA World Factbook only a minority identify themselves as primarily Amazigh, about 15% of the total population. dismisses the "Arab-Amazigh 99%, European less than 1%" and he counts this source to support his POV-pushing. If we rig the debate with false quotes, it is likely to bias opinions. Eleventh statement by Potymkin Eleventh statement by Skitash 1. Correct. 2. If possible, I would recommend clarifying in the RfC that it is about ethnicity and ethnic identity (as social constructs), rather than deep ancestral origins tracing back millennia, or science and genetics (which may belong in the body of the article but not in the infobox). I've provided all the relevant sources here. Thanks. Skitash (talk) 14:17, 24 August 2024 (UTC) References The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

United States and state-sponsored terrorism

– New discussion.

Filed by Kof2102966 on 10:10, 23 August 2024 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• United States and state-sponsored terrorism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Kof2102966 (talk · contribs)
• Cambial Yellowing (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

the User:Kof2102966 argued that the editor combines the entry that “United States and state-sponsored terrorism in syria” and

“Another study conducted by private company Conflict Armament Research at the behest of the European Union and Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit found that external support for anti-Assad Syrian rebels "significantly augmented the quantity and quality of weapons available to ISIL forces", including, in the most rapid case diversion they documented, "anti-tank weapons purchased by the United States that ended up in possession of the Islamic State within two months of leaving the factory.” 

to imply that the US provided weapons to ISIL, But the source did not advocate that the US provided weapons to ISIL.According to the Wikipedia guideline, This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research.The text should be deleted.

The User:Cambial Yellowing disagree about that, he\she argued the text that the User:Kof2102966 proposed removing in no way resembles the examples of synthesis that the User:Kof2102966 quote from the NOR policy.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[26]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Making a judgment as to whether the editorial synthesis of published material that they are arguing is original research or not, whether the editorial synthesis of published material is against the policy or not.

Summary of dispute by Cambial Yellowing

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Kof 2102966 claims but editor looked upon them as evidence of the US supporting ISIL in this Wikipedia entry.[27] Which editor they do not specify, presumably themself. (?) They write that the quotes serve to imply that the US provided weapons to ISIL.

Contrary to this claim, as can be seen above, the quotes include that these were diversions, and there is no implication otherwise. in the most rapid case [of] diversion they documented, "anti-tank weapons purchased by the United States that ended up in possession of the Islamic State (emphasis added).

Kof2102966's only proposed solution is to delete the entire paragraph. It's been suggested to Kof2102966 that they propose a different contextualisation to address their issue with the text. In response they made a personal attack and posted here. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The problem is not who is the editor, the problem is whether combining the entry that “United States and state-sponsored terrorism in syria” and

“Another study conducted by private company Conflict Armament Research at the behest of the European Union and Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit found that external support for anti-Assad Syrian rebels "significantly augmented the quantity and quality of weapons available to ISIL forces", including, in the most rapid case diversion they documented, "anti-tank weapons purchased by the United States that ended up in possession of the Islamic State within two months of leaving the factory.”

will imply that the US provided weapons to ISIL or not. By the way, the quotes here did not mention any “these weapon were diversions”.We are talking about whether combining them will imply that the US provided weapons to ISIL or not, don't them discussed separately or change the subject.And talking about the "personal attack", if you think the word "That is too arrogant" is personal attack,then why don't you think charging me with"deleting reliably-sourced content with a spurious attempted justification" is not a "personal attack"? Kof2102966 (talk) 14:45, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

United States and state-sponsored terrorism discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - If the two parties want an unbiased third editor to offer an opinion about whether a conclusion is synthesis amounting to original research, one option would be to request a Third Opinion at the Third Opinion Noticeboard. This might be quicker than moderated discussion, Robert McClenon (talk) 03:59, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Third Opinion is not enough, and we don't need very quick. It is all ok for me. Thank you. Kof2102966 (talk) 08:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (US-sponsored terrorism)

The filing editor forgot to notify the other editor. However, the other editor has replied, so notification can be waived, because they already know about this dispute request. I am ready to serve as the moderator if the editors both want moderated discussion. If there is discussion, it will be conducted under DRN Rule D. Please read DRN Rule D. This discussion involves American politics, which are a contentious topic, so that disruptive editing is subject to the contentious topics procedure.

Do you both agree to moderated discussion, and to comply with the ground rules, and to acknowledge that the contentious topics rules are in effect? If so, will each editor please state concisely what they want to change in the article, or what they want to leave unchanged that the other editor wants to change? The purpose of content dispute resolution is to improve the article, and we are discussing how to improve the article, so that that will be the focus of this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:47, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I request to delete the text that

“Another study conducted by private company Conflict Armament Research at the behest of the European Union and Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale Zusammenarbeit found that external support for anti-Assad Syrian rebels "significantly augmented the quantity and quality of weapons available to ISIL forces", including, in the most rapid case diversion they documented, "anti-tank weapons purchased by the United States that ended up in possession of the Islamic State within two months of leaving the factory.” is under the entry that “United States and state-sponsored terrorism in syria” Kof2102966 (talk) 10:46, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Robert, I agree to most of Rule D, the only exceptions being points 3. and 10. I'll not be bound not to report any issues about the article or the editing of the article at any other noticeboards. If Kof2102966 chooses to ignore WP:5P4 and engage in further personal attacks, I'll be reporting it in the normal way; similarly with inappropriate edits. This is in no way forum shopping, because it is Kof2102966 that has chosen to come to this particular venue, not me. I would think I would be able to meet point 10, but IRL commitments may prevent this. We are only here because Kof2102966 has refused to discuss or propose any solution other than deleting the paragraph they disagree with. Cambial — foliar❧ 00:39, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not up to you to decide whether my word is a personal attack or not, that's administrators' duty. You'd better watch your tongue, because if the administrator judges that the charges of "personal attack" were not proven, according to Casting aspersions, you will become the guy who started the personal attack, and your editing of my message will be vandalism. Now focus on the content we were discussing. Kof2102966 (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Statement 0.5 by possible moderator (US-sponsored terrorism)

I have written revised DRN Rule D1, and made two changes. First, I infer that what Cambial Yellowing is saying about D.3 is that they will not give their word that they will not report disruptive editing. I did not intend the rule to be an advance commitment not to report disruptive editing, but a notice that any such report will end the mediation. I have revised rule D.3 so that it clarifies that point, and I will consider changing all of the DRN Rules to clarify that you are not promising not to make a report to WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement, but I am stating that any such report will end the mediation. Is that satisfactory? Also, I have changed D.10 to say that you should try to respond within 48 hours, and that you should notify the moderator if you know that you will be busy. User:Cambial Yellowing - If you agree, please state what article content you wish to change that the other editor wants to leave the same, or what you want to leave the same that the other editor wants to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:46, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Statement 0.5 by editors (US-sponsored terrorism)

Wow, we've not even started and Kof2102966 you've broken the ground rules to which you agreed (point 6). Very disappointing. Kof2102966 says they want to remove a paragraph, and the RS on which it is based. I don't think it should be removed. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:22, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (US-sponsored terrorism)

Why doesn't he realize he is the first one who've broken the rule (point 4.1 and 4.2) which he agreed? If he resisted focusing on the context, just accusing me of misbehaviour without evidence, I request the moderator to warn him. Let me expound my reason, no matter how to edit this text, when it is combined with “United States and state-sponsored terrorism in Syria”, it implies that the US provided weapons to ISIL, even if pointing out the weapon is transferred to ISIL, it still can implies that the US provided weapons to ISIL through the anti-Assad Syrian rebels. Deleting it is the only way. If it did not imply anything, this context should be unrelated to the entry of “United States and state-sponsored terrorism in Syria”, the irrelevant context should be remove. Kof2102966 (talk) 12:22, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by possible moderator (US-sponsored terrorism)

Do you, both of you, want moderated discussion about article content, to see if we can resolve the content issue without discussing conduct, or do you want to go to WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement first? I do not intend to examine times to determine whether any violations of the rules occurred before or after you agreed to the rules, if you both want to address the content issue by moderated discussion. Either agree (again, if appropriate) to DRN Rule D1 and follow it beginning now, and we will discuss content, or continue to argue about who did what first, in which case the administrators at Arbitration Enforcement may or may not examine the timestamps. I recommend agreeing to the rules going forward, because that will avoid the likelihood of topic-bans, but, if so, you must agree to the rules again, just so that we don't deal with the past.

If you have not yet stated what you want to change in the article or leave the same in the article, answer that question when also agreeing to DRN Rule D1. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (US-sponsored terrorism)

I'm suspending my agreement until we can first establish whether this is even worth pursuing. You ask if I want moderated discussion. Not particularly: we're here at Kof2102966's request, not mine. I'm fine with discussing changes at article talk. I don't believe this is necessarily the most appropriate process, for the following reason.

In my view, if Kof2102966 is willing to discuss changes to the text that might alleviate whatever they perceive as a problem, we can have that discussion. But as Kof2102966 reiterates for a fourth time in their most recent comment above, the only possible outcome for them is their own: "Deleting it is the only way." Kof2102966 expressly asks for a ruling in their original post, requesting "a judgment" on their charge of synthesis. They apparently hope for a "ruling" from this process that will enable them to restore their original edit. But that's not the purpose of moderated discussion.

If Kof2102966 can agree to discuss other potential changes to the text, we can have a discussion about such changes. If they would prefer to do so in a moderated discussion here, I'm happy to agree to the amended rules in Robert McClenon's essay. But if the discussion is to be "we must delete it" and anything else is out of the question, I fear this process will be unproductive at best. Is Kof2102966 willing to discuss other outcomes?

A note to moderator: I've done nothing even remotely close to something that might warrant a topic ban (nor even discussion at ANI), so I don't appreciate veiled threats, however well-intentioned, that you cannot personally implement anyway. Cambial — foliar❧ 21:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by possible moderator (US-sponsored terrorism)

If the only content issue is the deletion of a paragraph, then a Request for Comments is probably in order, rather than moderated discussion.

What I should have said about a filing with a conduct forum, and will now say, is that an editor should read the boomerang essay before filing with WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement. If you haven't edited disruptively, filing with a conduct forum won't result in sanctions against you. I will still advise editors in general not to file a conduct report if there are any content-oriented approaches available.

Are there any other content issues than deletion of a paragraph? If not, should I prepare a neutrally worded RFC concerning the deletion of the paragraph, rather than conducting moderated discussion?

Moderated discussion is voluntary. We will only have moderated discussion if both editors want moderated discussion. Otherwise either talk page discussion or an RFC are options. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:39, 26 August 2024 (UTC)