Wikipedia:Reference desk/all

Wikipedia Reference Desk – All recent questions	Search Wikipedia:
WP:RD/ALL redirects here. You may also be looking for Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, Wikipedia:Redirect or Wikipedia:Deletion review. This page lists all the recent questions asked on the Wikipedia reference desk by category. To ask a new question, please select one of the categories below. To answer a question, click on the "edit" link beside the question. Return to the Reference Desk main page... For information on any topic, choose a category for your question:
Computers and IT Science Mathematics Humanities Computing, information technology, electronics, software and hardware Biology, chemistry, physics, medicine, geology, engineering and technology Mathematics, geometry, probability, and statistics History, politics, literature, religion, philosophy, law, finance, economics, art, and society Language Entertainment Miscellaneous Archives Spelling, grammar, word etymology, linguistics, language usage, and requesting translations Sports, popular culture, movies, music, video games, and TV shows Subjects that don't fit in any of the other categories Old questions are archived daily Help desk Village pump Ask general questions about using Wikipedia Ask about specific policies and operations of Wikipedia Help manual MediaWiki handbook Citing Wikipedia Resolving disputes Virtual classroom Information and instructions on every aspect of Wikipedia Information about the software that runs Wikipedia How to cite Wikipedia as a reference For resolving issues between users An advanced guide on everything Wikipedia See also the Wikipedia department directory
The following images are being used under the GNU FDL and/or the CC-BY-SA license: P computing.svg, P physics.svg, P mathematics.svg, P question.svg, P art.png, P literature.svg, P music.svg, P archive.svg, P Airplane.png

June 20

Where to find an Internal speaker for Redmi A3 ?

Simple question, I trusted a repair service run by an idiot who lost the internal speaker of my phone (resulting in the phone not emitting any sound). Where to purschase a replacement part ? 82.67.45.113 (talk) 19:37, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Surely the repair service should replace it. Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:56, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Replacing the whole phone is probably cheaper for them than getting a replacement speaker and installing it.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:13, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't know, I see the speaker for an A5 being advertised by this parts supplier for 99 rupees, which is only slightly more than a dollar.  Card Zero  (talk) 12:04, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

This "parts supplier" is Xiaomi.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:03, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Silly me, so it is. It seems like only the Indian branch of their website has a user friendly list of parts. Other countries get directions to service centers.  Card Zero  (talk) 13:08, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

The speaker don’t fit in the phone. And no part is sold for the A3 2A01:E0A:ACF:90B0:0:0:A03F:E788 (talk) 04:07, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

More exactly about the repair service they damage more each time you ask them to correct their mistakes. So repairing elsewhere is required. 37.167.77.33 (talk) 10:54, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

If they can't fix it, they should be liable for at least the (probably) extra cost of having it repaired elsewhere.  ​‑‑Lambiam 15:05, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

June 22

DRAM-optional computing

Do any CPUs exist that can use DRAM, but can also boot without it and use the last-level cache as the main memory instead? Do any BIOSes exist that boot in both modes depending on whether or not DRAM is actually installed? NeonMerlin 01:14, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Yes, modern x86-64 CPUs can be configured to use the cache as RAM. Before this, the boot-rom (that is, BIOS), had to enumerate the DRAM chips and set the memory controller up entirely using CPU registers (which is a fiddly business). Now it (well, now it's a UEFI-BIOS) can use cache-as-ram, and as the cache is so (comparatively) huge, it's a much easier environment. I saw a coreboot presentation about this a while ago (I can't find it now), but there's a coreboot blog about at: blog.aheymans.xyz/post/car    url is blocked, as it's a blogging site -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 08:25, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

... but there's not much one can do in this mode. coreboot just uses it to host its stack as it sets up the DRAM chips, and then it runs using stack (and I guess heap) in the DRAM as normal. I guess one could run a DRAM test suite in this mode (compared with Memtest86, which keeps its program code and some variables in the same DRAM it's testing), but with no video or other devices operational, it's very limited. I daresay some enterprising person could write some rudimentary code to bring up the PCI controller, xHCI, maybe the video controller (without using the option ROM in the video card) to provide a rudimentary no-DRAM environment. I can really only think that would be useful for memory testing, and it would be a lot of work. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 16:28, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

June 25

Windows 11 Home Single Language

In My laptop the option for WiFi connection sometimes vanishes. I have 5G mobile hotspot with password. After the last windows update the icon vanishes and connection gets disconnected and I am not able to connect.

I restart the laptop and the option appears again.

screenshot 1- When the wifi option is there-- https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GuRDrgPWgAAqBW6?format=jpg&name=medium

screenshot 2- when the wifi option vanishes-- https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GuRDtBlXIAAsc5J?format=jpg&name=medium

During the screenshot 2 situation I dont know how to bring the wifi option back without restarting. Also why does it vanish? Grinthorse (talk) 05:50, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

June 26

Convert a web table to Excel

Does anyone know how to convert this table to view and work in Excel or LibreOffice Calc? I've tried copying and pasting, but it puts everything in a single vertical column, so I can't work with it. Thanks. 46.114.161.131 (talk) 05:26, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

I asked ChatGPT with the following prompt:

could you please put all the entries on the table in this link in excel? https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/statistics.html?statistictype=positions&positionstype=multi-position&sectorcode=AL&seasoncode=&categorycode=WC&disciplinecode=&gendercode=&place=&competitornationcode=&position=2&positionsnumber=1 thanks!

It gave me the top 10 in a csv format, so you could ask it for the full list. Rmvandijk (talk) 08:28, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Have you used Excel's data from web function? Under data, you should see something with a name similar to "Get and Transform Data." From there, you can select "From Web." Enter the URL of the web page. It will look for the table and import it into Excel for you. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 11:29, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Upgrading conventional HDDs to SSDs in Dell PowerEdge R310

So I'm somewhat new to the server world, in that I've run servers before but this is my first true server (I've previously used desktop or even laptop PCs as servers). Firstly, any suggestions a brand or model? (I don't have a $500 budget for this project, however I would not be opposed to a used one). Secondly, anything (brand, model, style, etc) I should avoid? 143.223.148.17 (talk) 14:07, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Can't reinstall Chrome

I am using Windows 11, and was using Chrome as a web browser until a few days ago. Then I couldn't launch Chrome either by clicking its icon or by clicking a link in an email. So I uninstalled it, and have been unable to reinstall it. All attempts that I make to install it using the on-line installer result in the stupid message, "No updates are available", or some other message. I have tried deleting the previous folders and repeating the install, and it doesn't help. At this point, I think that what I need is for someone who knows what they are doing to take control of my computer and complete the install. I have looked at Google's web site to see if there is a way to chat with a human, and all that I have found is chatbots that show me documentation that I have already seen. Are there any ideas for what to try next? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:10, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Try one of Chrome's offline installers. https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/95346?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop#zippy=%2Cwindows:~:text=Install%20Chrome%20offline

Also, is there a particular reason you want to use Chrome instead of the Chrome-based Microsoft Edge or the independent Firefox? Aaron Liu (talk) 22:24, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

To answer the second question, I would like my choice of web browsers, and have long used Firefox to edit Wikipedia (including for this inquiry). I downloaded ChromeStandaloneSetup64.exe, which has Chrome inside it. When I run it, it says it is initializing, and then it stops. Sometimes it says that there is already an instance of the setup process running. Using the Resource Manager, I don't see any zombie processes. What I would really like is a knowledgeable human to take over my computer and drive through the process. Am I to infer that Google has completely done away with human technical support? I know that I could call Best Buy technical support, but they would escalate me to second-level technical support, and I have never had a successful experience with Best Buy second-level technical support. (You don't want those details.) I had Chrome working for three years. Is there some known but non-obvious reason why the standalone installer doesn't work? I will try rerunning it after restarting my computer, but I don't want to restart my computer for a little while. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:51, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

You may be able to reset your computer to a restore point. However, restarting it is certainly worth trying first.-Gadfium (talk) 23:56, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Can you try using https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/installed_packages_view.html to see if there is a leftover Chrome installation? If there is, the tool can show you a command to run that uninstalls it. Ian P. Tetriss (talk) 00:43, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

We should really have a Nirsoft article, to go along with the Sysinternals one.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:51, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I can't find enough sources to establish notability. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:17, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I can find a ton of little plaudits in magazines from ten years ago. Computer Active: "developer Nir Sofer is a one-man portable programs powerhouse." Micro Mart: "the freeware geniuses at Nirsoft". Maximum PC: "makers of a ton of great, techy system utilities". A longer quote from The Definitive Guide to Free Software: one of our most trusted independent developers, Nir Sofer ... Sofer really doesn't want you to use his program to break software licensing rules. Just below the screenshot on the download page you'll see an 'important Notice!' (big red letters), where Nir says he gets many emails from users who complain RunAsDate "doesn't work" - because they can't get it to unlock all the trial versions they throw at it. He stresses the tool is not designed for such law-breaking ...  Card Zero  (talk) 23:51, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

On the subject of technical support, it looks like for non-enterprise users all you have is Google Chrome's official "Help Community" forums. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:27, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Also, if you have Winget—you should by default, it should already be installed with Win11—you can try winget install Google.Chrome on the command line. See what happens, look for some error messages. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:29, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Answering "is there a way to chat with a human": Most people are using the free Chrome web browser. It is free. You are not a customer. You did not purchase anything. Free products rarely come with any form of support. The license states clearly that the product is "as is." But, there is an enterprise Chrome web browser you can purchase. I assume it is the same web browser, but it comes with support. You are basically making a purchase to become a customer so you can get support.

As for the main issue: I cannot install Chrome on my computer at work. We have a VPN that links all of our computers into a single network (I do not know the technical stuff). To install Chrome, our IT person has to first disable the VPN. Then, install Chrome. Then enable the VPN again. Of course, the entire process is normal Windows. Reboot. Download Chrome. Reboot. Disable VPN. Reboot. Install Chrome. Reboot. Enable VPN. Reboot. Then, reboot a couple more times just for good luck. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 12:08, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

June 27

Why is Bing Maps redirecting addresses?

While planning an auto repair, the insurance company sent me a map link to the selected repair shop - Directions. (Starting address changed for privacy.) When clicked, the page briefly shows the expected destination "928 Ventures Way, Chesapeake, VA 23320", but after a couple of seconds, it redirects me to a different repair shop a few miles away "Southern Greenbrier Collision Center, 2110 Smith Ave, Chesapeake, VA 23320". I have never seen this before. Is Bing now in the business of redirecting customers to paid advertisers? -- Anon-20250625 (talk) 16:44, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

You mention privacy. The starting address is in the URL you used for the Directions. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 17:30, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Presumably that's what was changed for privacy.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:30, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I see Bing Maps have a procedure for when your business relocates. It's possible that somebody who may or may not be affiliated with repair shop B has managed to "claim" the address of MiCar and has told Bing Maps that the business has relocated to the address of repair shop B.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:59, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Interesting. Seems ripe for abuse. Somewhat reminds me of the backstory for the Strowger switch. -- Anon-20250625 (talk) 21:21, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Update: Someone must be watching, because the Directions link no longer redirects, but a direct search of the address "928 Ventures Way, Chesapeake, VA 23320", still redirects to the competitor. -- Anon-20250625 (talk) 00:49, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Update 2: It seems that they have now fixed the "928 Ventures Way, Chesapeake, VA 23320" address search. However, if you search for the business name "MiCar Collision Center, Chesapeake, VA", Bing maps still redirects to the competitor shop. -- Anon-20250625 (talk) 04:27, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Help finding US census data page

Please respond on the humanities page: WP:Reference desk/Humanities#Help finding US census data page FakeHouses (talk) 19:47, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

June 18

Health lore

Where does the advice to "keep your feet warm and your head cold" (widely believed in Eastern Europe) come from? Is there actual evidence of better health outcomes when following this advice? 2601:646:8082:BA0:196D:8E1:5181:D48F (talk) 02:08, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Severe problems due to frozen toes (see Frostbite) or heat stroke are all too common. Of course, one's nose or ears can also be frostbitten, but this is far less common.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:29, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Might they be speaking metaphorically about the head, as in "keeping a cool head" when under stress? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:06, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Unlikely, given the grammatical construction of this sentence in languages other than English (in particular, in Russian it reads "keep your head in the cold" -- definitely referring to literal thermodynamics, not psychology). 2601:646:8082:BA0:D199:AB8A:25C3:B09B (talk) 23:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Several sources attribute this advice to Herman Boerhaave (1668–1738): "Houd uw hoofd koel, uw voeten warm en prop niet te vol uw darm." ("Keep your head cool, your feet warm, and don't overstuff your bowels.") I have my doubts this is real; it sounds like a made-up attribution.  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:45, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! And yes, it does actually sound completely plausible that he was the one who first published this advice -- given that the model of human anatomy he had come up with was essentially hydraulic in nature, it makes perfect sense that he would have believed that maintaining a temperature gradient between the head and the feet would improve circulation, whereas keeping the head excessively warm would hinder it! Now, for the second part of the question: does this actually result in better health outcomes, compared with keeping the whole body uniformly warm in cold temperatures or uniformly cool in hot temperatures? 2601:646:8082:BA0:D199:AB8A:25C3:B09B (talk) 23:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Treatment

what is the function of lotion _Derma Dew? 223.185.220.224 (talk) 10:08, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

It is the brand name for a skin cream containing Aloe vera. That article describes its use. You'll also find it if you use a search engine for the brand. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:02, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

June 19

Boiling point of nitrogen

Do we have a table for the boiling point of diatomic nitrogen as a function of pressure, especially between atmospheric pressure and its critical point? The infobox at the start of our Nitrogen article says that the critical point is near 3400 kPa and 126 K, but there's no reference given for that. I don't see data for pressures lower than that, other than a boiling point of 77 K at some unspecified pressure presumably near atmospheric. Ideally I'd also like a table of the liquid densities as a function of temperature in this range. I tried to look for other articles on en.Wikipedia, or phase diagrams on Commons, but all I found are two phase diagrams for much higher pressures. I don't need high precision data. Nitrogen is sold in pressurized cylinders for cheap so I expected this data to be widely available. – b_jonas 11:30, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

doi:10.5075/epfl-thesis-4721 has a nice phase diagram on page 61. It's cited to doi:10.1088/0031-9120/7/4/010, whose full-text I cannot access at the moment, so I don't know if it simply copied the diagram, used experimental or theoretical values from it, or has some other cited underlying source of information. DMacks (talk) 17:24, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

The labels have been reset in a serif typeface, but the grid and curves, although redrawn, are virtually indistinguishable.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:36, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Oceani (sic) Foam? 1960s Soviet breakthrough.

(Science seems to be the best here but this is more materials science or consumer science.)

On an episode of Gaslit about Nixon and Martha Mitchell, John Dean's character drops about how the Soviets invented a cushion foam that "feels better than you imagine". [1] (youtube link ap isn't working)

Is this real? How do you spell it? Any other info on this, like why after the cold war no one makes it?

Thanks in advance! 2600:1700:6742:3C00:C8E3:FC65:9FD0:D2C3 (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Just tried looking it up under several different spellings, and the only refs I found led right back to the show -- so I can safely conclude that this material is purely fictional. BTW, the entire story is highly implausible on several counts: (1) having personally lived in the Soviet block during the last few years of the cold war, I can confirm that their foam cushions were not actually all that good -- they were very saggy and tended to support you in exactly the wrong places; (2) Kennedy would never have risked using Soviet-made materials in Air Force One (of all places) regardless of their supposed quality, for risk of public scandal; (3) I have found confirmation that the cushions on Air Force One were in fact manufactured in the USA (oh, the good old days!); and (4) the properties attributed to this "Poshinaya foam" appear to be similar to those of memory foam, which was invented during that time period (just about the only historically accurate part of this whole thing), but by Nasa, not the Soviets! 2601:646:8082:BA0:D199:AB8A:25C3:B09B (talk) 00:23, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Really appreciate your deep dive on this. Hollywood always makes it look real smh. Any other thoughts or comments are welcome but what you are stating makes sense in some ways. 2600:1700:6742:3C00:C8E3:FC65:9FD0:D2C3 (talk) 03:11, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Now that I remember this, there were even calls by local health experts to avoid using foam cushions in home furniture (and especially in children's furniture) because they believed them (and probably with very good reason) to contribute to poor posture due to their sagginess -- which shows just how bad Soviet-block foam cushions really were! 2601:646:8082:BA0:D83C:8BF:CC86:2F61 (talk) 12:05, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Can you tell me something about two headed snakes?

As far as I know, two headed snakes are relatively common compared to other Siamese twins. Is it true that the two heads often get angry with each other and disagree about where their body is going and start fighting each other? 146.200.107.90 (talk) 22:47, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

The following article from a reputable source might be of interest; however, I didn't read it because I was required to "Enter your email to read this article", which I'm unwilling to do:

• "Life Is Confusing For Two-Headed Snakes". Animals. National Geographic. 20 June 2025. --136.56.165.118 (talk) 00:42, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Two quotes from that article:

"Just watching them feed, often fighting over which head will swallow the prey, shows that feeding takes a good deal of time, during which they would be highly vulnerable to predators," said Burghardt. "They also have a great deal of difficulty deciding which direction to go, and if they had to respond to an attack quickly they would just not be capable of it."

...

Snakes operate a good deal by smell, and if one head catches the scent of prey on the other's head, it will attack and try to swallow the second head.

There is no suggestion of anger being involved.  ​‑‑Lambiam 03:58, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Unlike mammals, reptiles lay eggs, and the mother's body cannot detect and terminate severely deformed embryos early in development. Stanleykswong (talk) 20:18, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Also, in placental mammals and many other viviparous animals, Siamese twins make delivery harder, endangering the mother. In humans it's almost certain to kill the mother without modern medical care. That increases the selection against genetic defects that cause Siamese twins. Some snakes employ some form of ovoviviparity. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:03, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Minor quibble: some species reptiles are viviparous (even some snakes). Two-headed snakes are probably rare enough that it would hard to look for a correlation with species. DMacks (talk) 12:01, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

June 21

Very small black holes

Black holes are right now thought to be characterized only by mass, angular momentum and charge. Could weak isospin also be a theoretical characterization? Aso I've heard that black holes could pass through us without our noticing. if they had angular momentum,charge, or hefty weak isospin, would they be more noticeable?Rich (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Black holes vary in size, from tiny micro black holes to supermassive black holes that reside at the centers of galaxies. In theory, if the black hole is small enough, it is possible for a small black hole to pass through the Earth without us noticing. Although black holes have a high density, if the black hole is small enough, the effect of gravity on the tiny black hole will be negligible and we cannot detect it. Stanleykswong (talk) 11:33, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

It would be funny if it turned out that neutrinos are actually tiny black holes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:03, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

It's not impossible. Neutrinos are extremely tiny particles, with a mass far lower than other elementary particles such as electrons. They have almost no size, so the density can be very high. In addition, they have no charge, so a large number of neutrinos can be concentrated in a very small space. Stanleykswong (talk) 16:13, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Who told you that? --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:10, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Neutrinos have a lepton number (unlike black holes, unless I'm mistaken) and obey the Pauli exclusion principle (so they can't be arbitrarily concentrated). AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:26, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Note that micro black holes evaporate within a tiny fraction of a second -- and also note that, even for a Planck-mass black hole (10 micrograms), such near-instantaneous evaporation would release an energy of about 900 gigajoules (which, for comparison, is about the explosive power of a 500-lb high-explosive bomb like the ones we drop on Isis and other terrorist groups). So no, such a black hole still can't pass right through you for 2 different reasons -- (1) it will evaporate first, and (2) in doing so it would blow you to bits if it happened to be close enough! 2601:646:8082:BA0:BDCC:8484:2734:F138 (talk) 13:21, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

However, if such a hole were travelling close to the speed of light, relativistic time dilation would prolong its lifetime. See also Micro black hole#Expected observable effects. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 15:27, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Still, assuming a casualty radius of 11 meters for the explosion caused by the evaporation of the black hole (implying blast effects only, no flying debris), the time dilation would have to be at least by a factor of thirty-six orders of magnitude to allow said black hole to pass through you and explode a safe distance away! (And if the explosion would create a significant amount of flying shrapnel, e.g. if it demolishes a parked car nearby, then that would add an extra order of magnitude for the time dilation required!) 2601:646:8082:BA0:F577:E853:35B:8DD9 (talk) 11:52, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

June 23

One minute earlier in 151 years

Accounting for DST today, the sun set on Sunday, October 4, 1874, in Oakland, California, at 6:47 PM. This year, in 2025, the sun will set at the same month, day, and location at 6:46 PM, one minute earlier in just 151 years. What factors account for this small difference? Viriditas (talk) 09:51, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Milankovitch cycles? Although I suppose there might also be some rounding errors between whole minutes there? I guess we can rule out the unreliability of chronometers in Oakland in 1874? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:59, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

We have a good calendar that keeps calendar date in sync with the apparent motions of the sun. It ensures that on the same date the sun sets at the same time (with small variations). Or what did you actually expect? --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:08, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

• The solstice - the exact moment that the Earth's axis lines up with the sun - drifts around a little bit due to the fact that the year isn't a perfect 365 days. According to timeanddate.com, summer solstice 1874 was 21 June 15:07, and summer solstice 2025 was 21 June 02:42 UTC. That means that 4 October this year starts - in an astronomical sense, compared to the Earth's rotation around the sun - 12 hours earlier this year compared to 1874. Sunset times changes quite quickly in late September/early October (it looks like in Oakland, it's a minute or two per day), because it's near the equinox, and it's quite possible that that 12 hour difference is enough to push the sunset from one minute to another. In another year, when we have an unusually late solstice, October 4 will have a slightly later sunset, but most of us are unlikely to live to see it. The solstice date naturally gets slightly earlier every year by about 6 hours and 13 minutes, and that's why every 4 years we have a leap year - but the leap year correction still leaves about 13 minutes of drift per year. We try to cancel that out by skipping a leap year once a century (not counting years divisible by 400), so normally you get late solstices following a round century year (1800, 1900 etc) because the leap years are skipped in these years and that resets the calendar, but 2000 was a leap year so the calendar didn't get the usual reset. There won't be another late solstice until 2103, when it will occur at 22:47 UTC on 21 June - and that year Oakland will gain a minute and the sun will set at 6:48 PM (according to Wolfram Alpha). Smurrayinchester 10:35, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

  Thank you! Viriditas (talk) 10:59, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

  Many thanks, Smurrayinchester. Just for my info, are sunrise and sunset times always given in whole minutes? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:02, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I think so. You can work it out more precisely, but the terminator (line of sunrise/sunset) moves at 463 metres per second at the equator, and slower the further towards the poles you go - you only need to walk a short distance to change the sunrise by a second. The sun rises and sets approximately 10 seconds earlier at the Tower of London compared to at Big Ben, for example, not taking into account all the other factors like the precise shape of the Earth and atmospheric effects that refract the sun's position. It's just not worth publishing sunrise times in seconds - it would be an example of false precision. Smurrayinchester 12:35, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Many thanks for that very clear detail. Is that walking North or South, or East or West? Perhaps both. Obviously, in many places on land, the horizon will be obscured by terrain and/or structures. Is there an agreed official location for the sunset and sunrise in London? I would have guessed Royal Observatory, Greenwich. Sorry to keep asking! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:48, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

East-west. And I don't know if there's an official single point for astronomical calculations in London, but Greenwich certainly produce their own sunrise and sunset tables for astronomy. Smurrayinchester 15:01, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

The terminator moves across the Earth's surface with a speed of 360° of longitude in one day of 24 × 3600 s – not uniformly in October's Oakland, but the average is good enough here. The longitudinal width of Oakland is about 0.2°, so for the terminator to glide across Oakland takes about 48 seconds. Can we be certain that the reference point for 1874 is at the same longitude as that for 2025?  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:22, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Yes, it's quite long, isn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:30, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

There was no standard time in the United States in 1874 (History_of_time_in_the_United_States#Railway_time). So was 6:47 pm recorded in municipal time? Local solar time? Or something else? --Amble (talk) 22:05, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

(Just to be clear, I think the OP is talking about calculations of the kind you get from modern astronomical software, not measured local clock time. Even for precisely the same coordinates, the calculated sunset times vary for the reasons I listed above). Smurrayinchester 08:48, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Your reply was fantastic, those effects can easily explain the variation. You are probably correct about the OP's data source as well. I initially thought it might relate to the long record of timekeeping data from Chabot Space and Science Center, which "served as the official timekeeping station for the entire Bay Area, measuring time with its transit telescope", but Chabot was only founded in 1883. --Amble (talk) 14:54, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Smurrayinchester got this the wrong way round. It's easier to visualise using the autumnal equinox, which in 1874 fell on 23 September at 5:23 AM GMT and this year will fall at 6:19 PM GMT on 22 September. So this year 4 October falls 11h 4m further from the equinox than it did in 1874 and thus 11h 4m nearer to winter, meaning the sun sets earlier. The equation of time, which is partly affected by the time the apparent sun crosses the meridian, has little effect. In 1853, for example, this variable (which is subtracted from apparent (sundial) time to obtain mean (clock) time on 3, 4 and 5 October was respectively 11m 0.17s, 11m 18.33s and 11m 36.14s. You can check you are applying the equation correctly by considering the clock time at which the sundial shows noon: in early October the sundial is ahead of a clock set to local mean time (in practice standard (zone) time is used). With the cessation of direct astronomical observation from Greenwich parameters were recalculated using a zero meridian line a few yards from the one marked on the ground. 2A00:23C8:9626:8F01:F150:6B5A:4C04:3F82 (talk) 12:22, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

This implies that the October 4, 1874, sunset time for locations at Oakland's latitude should be equal, within a few seconds, to the mean of their sunset times for October 4, 2025 and October 5, 2025.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:19, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

June 26

Butterfly watching question #2

I'm currently doing detailed planning for my trip to New England as mentioned 14 days ago (and will go on July 1), and I have some more specific questions to ask: I've found 2 other potentially promising locations for butterfly watching, one in Yarmouth, Maine and another in Waterville, Maine -- however, the question I will need answered before the end of this month is, in these 2 towns which species of tiger swallowtail is predominant, Papilio canadensis or P. glaucus (note no link to the article about the latter species)? 2601:646:8082:BA0:4C47:A4C8:EC7A:C5C6 (talk) 03:33, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

A quick Google finds:

...both eastern and Canadian tiger swallowtails are common, with Canadian tiger swallowtails more common in Maine. [2]

Alansplodge (talk) 21:58, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

And distribution maps within Maine are here and here. Alansplodge (talk) 22:04, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

The scary butterflies are all confined to Hancock County! I hope somebody's told them that. The county is home to Acadia National Park, the only national park in New England - a possible reason for the distribution.  Card Zero  (talk) 22:12, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! And I've actually been told by a local expert from Coastal Maine Botanical Gardens that P. glaucus is also predominant in Lincoln County, just to the west, and that the reason for this is the much milder winter due to the river nearby (and also that in recent years this species has been aggressively expanding its range northward, as is also the case with Papilio cresphontes) -- but he also told me that this far north, P. glaucus has a non-scary size (in fact, no bigger than P. canadensis), which makes it OK! (In fact, it's the P. cresphontes which is more likely to be a problem for me due to its size -- the expert told me that even in the Boothbay area, they can reach a size of 5-6 inches, although he might have meant (I hope) the ones in the butterfly house at the botanical garden, not the ones in the wild -- I guess I'll just have to see!) 2601:646:8082:BA0:D5E1:EC31:5434:1B47 (talk) 04:21, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Carry a pair of strong nearsighted glasses; they make everything look smaller.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:23, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Hahaha, I actually don't think I'll need to bother -- this source says the P. cresphontes in Canada have a size range of 3 1/4 to 4 1/2 inches (the two pinned specimens at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto had a wingspan of only about 3 inches or so, I measured with my finger against the glass), and since Maine is not any farther from the northern edge of their range than Toronto (or even Ottawa), they should be no bigger than that up there either -- which, for a non-tiger-striped species like this one, is perfectly fine by me! (That guy must have been talking about the ones in the butterfly house, not those in the wild!) And if I do see a giant swallowtail which is too giant for me, I expect I'll be able to see it from afar and make myself scarce before it gets too close -- but I don't expect this will happen! 2601:646:8082:BA0:B4C5:E96C:7826:47EE (talk) 13:45, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

We can't wait to hear your trip report once you made it (hopefully safely) back.  ​‑‑Lambiam 05:22, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Not to worry, will do! And seriously -- barring some freak accident as a result of a panic attack (a vanishingly small possibility, as even having a panic attack in the first place would require some improbable turn of events, for the reasons I've stated above, and even if it happens it's unlikely to lead to anything worse), the worst that can happen is that instead of being desensitized I'd end up traumatized worse than before -- but even that is highly unlikely, given how gradually I'm doing this (hence my choice of location, selected specifically so that I have a good chance to see P. canadensis and not run into its bigger cousins like P. glaucus) and how much progress I've already made in the past 7 years! Of course, with an animal phobia, going from pictures and figurines to real live animals is always a big step (because a real live animal has a mind of its own, so you don't have any control over what it does) -- but I've made every effort to make this step go as smoothly as it possibly could! 2601:646:8082:BA0:E08A:96DE:28D8:2E6F (talk) 02:22, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

June 29

The list of all the reproaches against cryonics

Hello, I apologize for the inconvenience, but I'd like to know the list of things that the scientific community criticizes about current cryonics, please. I know that there's the excessive deterioration of neurons, the failure to preserve the excitability threshold of synapses; moreover, there's a hypothesis according to which a certain structure of molecules inside synapses must also be preserved (as we're not sure that this hypothesis is false, we'll have to converse with it as a precaution) ; and else...? 78.240.199.90 (talk) 16:01, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

IP editor: The section at Cryonics#Obstacles to success has quite a lot of criticisms. Other contributors here may suggest more. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:58, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

If the business is not strongly regulated, with good oversight, any bunch of con artists can start a cryonics firm, swearing by all that is holy that they are industriously and meticulously applying best practice using the most advanced science and technology this side of the Milky Way, while not doing much more than keeping up an impressive Potemkin village.  ​‑‑Lambiam 17:41, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

• There is no inconvenience, OP. We invite questions such as yours. Rest easy. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:40, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

June 18

Limited Circuit of 120-Cell

I was looking at a Circuit of the pentagonal faces of a Dodecahedron, wondering if it could be done with only passing from a side to one of the non-adjacent sides. I determined it can't since any set of three faces in such a circuit would be the ones on three consecutive sides of a fourth pentagon, which could then only enter and exit by adjacent sides.

I was looking at moving that up a level. For a given face of a Dodecahedron, designate a move from the face to one of the five adjacent faces as an Ortho move, a move from a face to an opposite face as a Para move and a move to one of the other five faces as a Meta move (see Arene substitution pattern for the naming convention) Can a circuit through the cells of a 120-Cell be done *only* with Meta moves? Can a circuit be done only with Ortho Moves? If no for either, can it be done allowing both that type of move or Para. (Obviously it can't be done with Para only has that will trace out the "equator" of the polydedron (similar to doing it on the cube or hypercube).Naraht (talk) 01:57, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Where to read the original works of Stephen and Miller for the Index Calculus algorithm ?

I just know it was published in 1968 by

Tables of indices and primitive roots, Royal Society Mathematical Tables, vol 9, Cambridge University Press.

But don’t know the article’s exact name nor can I afford the book… Even if I could afford it, I need it as a ᴘᴅꜰ. 2A01:E0A:ACF:90B0:0:0:A03F:E788 (talk) 20:56, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

That volume was authored by A. E. Western and J. C. P. Miller. Part of the introduction, preceding the tables, can be viewed here.

I don't see anyone with the surname "Stephen" who has published work on elliptic curves. Could this by any chance refer to Nelson Malcolm Stephens (1941–2024), no article on Wikipedia but author of one of the cited works in Feit–Thompson conjecture? The article "Primes generated by elliptic curves" is by Graham Everest, Victor Miller and Nelson Stephens.  ​‑‑Lambiam 00:07, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

June 20

english name of the non-derivable points

For y=|x| the x=0 point is said in italian "punto angoloso". Paper and on-line dictionaries fail to translate this term. Note that I mean a generic case, not the peculiar case called cusp. In the english wiki I have not found a definition, but I have found such a point called angle, corner, sharp turn and bend. Which is the most-widely accepted term? thanks 151.29.62.127 (talk) 09:49, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm not convinced it has exactly the same meaning as you're going for, but I think vertex comes pretty close. That's the term used in the context of linear programming at least. A direct translation, "corner point" will probably be understood as well. And yes, a cusp is a special case since the tangent line moves continuously there. There are many ways that a function can be non-differentiable though, for example y=x sin (1/x) is not differentiable at 0, and I'd hesitate to call that a corner. As with many language questions, it helps to know the context, can give an example of the word being used in a sentence? --RDBury (talk) 12:10, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks very much. I am translating italian lessons for people that know little english and almost no italian, so the context cannot help.151.29.62.127 (talk) 12:34, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

In old calculus books, you may find two words, "cusp" for where the derivative goes to infinity, and "salient point" for where the derivative has a jump discontinuity. I think the best answer to your question as phrased is "salient point", though that excludes the cusp case. --Trovatore (talk) 20:04, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Anticipating a couple of possible objections. First, technically, the first derivative doesn't have a jump discontinuity at the singular point because it isn't defined there. Hopefully you can work out what I mean.

More importantly, I'm just treating the case of the graph of a function, not more general curves. Again the extension is left as an exercise. --Trovatore (talk) 20:07, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

I've never personally seen "salient point", and notably Richard Courant's classic Differential and Integral Calculus uses the term "corner" (although as a purely descriptive noun, rather than term of art). It's fair to say that there is no widely accepted term of art for this, and "corner" seems to be common, but even a literal translation of the Italian would be satisfactory. Tito Omburo (talk) 20:12, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

It's attested in Griffin, Frank Loxley (1927). Mathematical Analysis Higher Course. Cambridge, Massachusetts: The Riverside Press. p. 390.. --Trovatore (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Classifications of singular points

It happens to be PD, so I'm going to go ahead and drop in a shot of it; possibly it will give context, but also I just love these old books. --Trovatore (talk) 20:56, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

A book of somewhat dubious provenance, imo. Tito Omburo (talk) 21:07, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

I have to say I find that comment a little reductive. It's actually an excellent book for learning certain techniques. It was my dad's college textbook and I had a great time with it in high school (or was it junior high?). It's true that it's pitched more to the engineering or physics student and less to the mathematician. I did learn some physics from it as well.

This particular part of it is a little frustrating because it's not completely clear what Griffin is talking about. (It might help to know that on the previous page he's discussing curves defined by an equation $f(x,y)=0$, and the mysterious equation 61 he mentions is ${\frac {\partial f}{\partial x}}+{\frac {\partial f}{\partial y}}{\frac {dy}{dx}}=0$.) In particular the statement that "[a] salient point is possible only when the equation involves transcendental or irrational algebraic functions of special kinds" is a bit obscure. I wondered for years what these cases would be. He does give an example in the exercises, but it's $y=5-{\sqrt {x^{2}(x+4)}}$, which is obviously just leveraging the convention that the square-root function gives the nonnegative square root if it exists. In any case this is potentially "good trouble" as it might spur the interested student to learn about algebraic varieties.

Griffin was head of the math department at Reed College, its acting president for a while, and vice president of the MAA. We probably ought to have an article about him. There's a starting point here. --Trovatore (talk) 00:58, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

The term "angular point" is also found: E. J. Townsend, G. A. Goodenough (1910). Essentials of Calculus. New York: Holt. p. 51. Or, more recently, here or here. Townsend was the translator of the 1902 English edition of Hilbert's Grundlagen der Geometrie.^[3]  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:15, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

@151.29.62.127: I think "singular point" might be the best choice for your needs here. The only thing is it might be more general than you want, in that it at least arguably includes points of discontinuity, but if you specify that the function is continuous, that should be OK. --Trovatore (talk) 21:03, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Singular point could mean anything! That's a bad choice. OP is specifically asking about corners. Tito Omburo (talk) 21:06, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

There is, moreover, only a singularity in the derivative.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:16, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

"Singular" doesn't mean "discontinuous". A discontinuity in the derivative is absolutely a singularity, and as I said a discontinuity in the function itself could be ruled out by context. That said, it's true there are various other possibilities. However the heading asks about "non-derivable points" ("non-derivable" presumably meaning "non-differentiable"). In lots of contexts those would be precisely the singular points. --Trovatore (talk) 17:01, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Definition of the term angular point

Wiktionary defines the term salient point solely as: "a prominent feature or detail". This is what English readers will naturally expect the term to mean. Wiktionary lists an obsolete sense "moving by leaps or springs; jumping" for salient; apart from this being obsolete, what is moving by a leap is only the derivative.

I have uploaded the textbook definition of angular point, which is crisp and clear. Modern texts (refs given above) using the term give equivalent definitions. The term is appropriately descriptive.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:48, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't know how Griffin came to give this sense in his textbook. I had assumed it was standard but perhaps it was not. Searches are confounded by a more recent sense from computer vision and machine learning. --Trovatore (talk) 17:07, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Probably a calque of French point saillant.^[4][5][6]  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:28, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

June 21

James Tanton

Is James Tanton an Australian mathematician, as stated in the article about him, or an American author, as stated of the article Encyclopedia of Mathematics (James Tanton). None of the references for either of these pages is clear. Possibly there are two people called James Tanton, one of whom is a mathematician and the other wrote an encyclopedia about mathematics. 176.108.139.1 (talk) 01:31, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Math genealogy knows about one James Tanton (actually only one person with the surname Tanton). That seems to be the same person as this guy, whose CV (linked there) includes degrees from an Australian university and a book he's written called Encyclopedia of Mathematics. All this suggests there is one person, who has lived in both Australia and the US at different times. 173.79.19.248 (talk) 02:08, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Since graduating from the University of Adelaide in 1988, Tanton has been living in the US.^[7] He is settled there, with a family – his spouse is planetary scientist Lindy Elkins-Tanton,^[8] who was born in Ithaca, New York. While not certain, it is reasonable to assume that Tanton is now a naturalized US citizen. If so, he should be referred to as an "Australian–American mathematician", like we do for James Oxley, Terence Tao and Paula Tretkoff.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:43, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! I've updated both articles. 176.108.139.1 (talk) 18:16, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Galois Group densities per degree

For polynomials over the integers of degree n, one could classify them as Cantor did, by k= sum of the absolute values of the coefficients. For each k,the number of each that are factorable, the number that have Galois group C_n, D_n[or D_2n depending on convention], A_n, S_n could be counted, at least for small n and small k. If the polynomial is factorable, a "quasi" galois group could be noted as the dirct product of the galois groups of the irreducible factors.(not transitive though). So are there results anyone here know about this? Also what books are there where I can I find out about work like this? (I've heard in passing that as n->oo, most polynomials have galois group A_n, but I don't know why or where to find out.Rich (talk) 20:44, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

June 28

Why the minimal embedding field can’t be smaller than the embedding degree when the characteristic from the binary curve is large ?

I was reading this paper that describe how to find an embedding field which is smaller than the one from the embedding degree.
But why the method doesn’t work when the characteristic is large (I fail to understand the paper on such point) ? 2A01:E0A:ACF:90B0:0:0:A03F:E788 (talk) 18:57, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

June 29

Euclidean plane equipped with circle inversion, is it a group?

I am writing a draft on cylindrical mirrors, and I came across this relevant question (the answer needs a source to be mentioned there!): Given the Euclidean plane equipped with circle inversion transformation, is it a group? I am confused, needing to sleep awhile. MathKeduor7 (talk) 07:37, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

If you keep the centre fixed, the composition of two inversions with different radii is a scaling, not a circle inversion. Other combinations do other fun things. I don't know whether all circle inversions generate the entire "extended Möbius group" though; you might need to include the limit case of infinitely large circles = straight lines. —Kusma (talk) 09:14, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

@Kusma: Tysm!!! MathKeduor7 (talk) 11:36, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

The identity transformation is not an inversion, so the set of inversions does not by itself form a group. They are the generating set of a group of transformations acting on the plane plus a point at infinity, but that is somewhat trivially true.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:58, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

June 17

Which kinds of sources exist for contemporary South Korean politics?

If I want to know Kevin Rudd's thoughts, I can find an e-book on Amazon and run it through a machine translator if I don't speak English. If I want to read about the K-Belt Initiative, a Korean system of grants and tax policy to encourage semiconductor production, do they have a political culture of ministers publishing books on their pet projects? Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Confused, how is Rudd relevant, either in his role as PM or his role as ambassador to the US? Nyttend (talk) 21:31, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

They's using a random contemporary Australian politician as an example. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:03, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Probably just the news. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:04, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Read the paper: The Korea Herald. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:29, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

Let me say this differently: if I go to the National Assembly's website, can I ask to see the sponsors and co-sponsors of this bill? I would like to know what Korean political participation beyond reading the newspaper looks like. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 01:03, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

if I go to the National Assembly's website, can I ask to see the sponsors and co-sponsors of this bill?

Yes. You don't even need to ask anyone, just click on (Google-translated) "pending bills" and then click on the one whose sponsors ("proposers") you want to see. Aaron Liu (talk) 04:26, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

June 18

Nagasaki oopsie?

A sentence in "This Earth of Hours" (1959) by James Blish:

Getting along with these people on the first contact would be vital, and yet the language barrier might well provoke a tragedy wanted by neither side, as the obliteration of Nagasaki in World War II had been provoked by the mistranslation of a single word.

This is new to me. Is there any truth to it? —Tamfang (talk) 05:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

None whatsoever. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

There is a claim that a misinterpretation of the Japanese verb 黙殺する (mokusatsu suru) contributed to the decision to bomb Hiroshima; see here. I have not tried to evaluate this, but note that Wiktionary gives both the sense "to withhold comment" and "to treat with silent contempt".  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:50, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

WHAAOE: Mokusatsu.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:58, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Mentioned at Potsdam Declaration#Aftermath. DuncanHill (talk) 07:00, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

There was also miscommunication over the meaning of "unconditional surrender", described in various histories of the bombings and probably in Wikipedia. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 20:57, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Looking for article

I saw an article a month or two ago, that I think was a blurb about an academic paper, and might have been in one of the "science daily" type of pop-science sites. It talked about non-literate societies (indigenous cultures etc.) that had contact with the outside world, and decided that widespread literacy was something they didn't want or need, since literate societies developed text-based (I remember the term "text-based") rule and legal systems that were then subject to manipulation and whatever the real-world equivalent of wikilawyering is called. That in turn led to inequities developing that a face-to-face culture did a better job of avoiding. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I'm not having any luck with search engines. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 21:02, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Total shot in the dark: Coomaraswamy, Ananda K., Bugbear of Literacy (1945) seem to be along the lines of what you're looking for. MediaKyle (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks interesting. I'll try some more web searches based on it. I think the article I saw referred to something more recent, but this will help. 2601:644:8581:75B0:9C2D:563:979D:9458 (talk) 00:50, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

There are various texts with an incisive analysis of the ailments of Western technocratic society presented from a point of view of some person who only recently made contact with that society, a primitive but unspoilt, ingenue, noble savage. These are invariably fabrications. The reality is that any such person would be gobsmacked, flabbergasted, and unable to make much sense of their bewildering experiences until they become embedded in Western society.  ​‑‑Lambiam 01:17, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Yes I'd have to again see the article I mentioned to tell what was involved. I do remember that Ishi was transplanted into US society (late 1800s I guess) and lived in it for decades. When he was old, someone supposedly asked him if there were any worthwhile modern inventions. His answer was "matches". 2601:644:8581:75B0:7504:799F:8140:AC84 (talk) 22:44, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Alas, neither TB vaccines nor anthropologists smart enough to discourage their immunologically vulnerable charges/subjects, that they transported into the heart of a modern city, from frequenting hospital wards had yet been invented. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 06:24, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Sounds like the anthropologist James Scott’s “The Art of Not Being Governed”. Can’t remember if he claims that some peoples deliberately turned their backs on literacy but definitely says that illiteracy has advantages in terms of ideology flexibility and preventing formation of hierarchies. Prezbo (talk) 23:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

That would be James C. Scott's The Art of Not Being Governed. DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Nothing to fear...

We are told "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes...", and we are told that this is a paraphrase of Henry David Thoreau's "Nothing is so much to be feared as fear." E. F. Benson's story "The Terror by Night" (1912) mentions "Fear and misgiving, blind, unreasonable, and paralysing", and then our narrator tells us "There is nothing in the world to fear except fear. You know that as well as I do". Do we know when the journal entry of Thoreau's was first published? and do we know of any other expressions of a similar sentiment between whenever that was and Benson's use? Did Benson read Thoreau? His "you know that as well as I do" suggests to me he was using a fairly well-known idea. And the similarity between FDR's "unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes" and Benson's "blind, unreasonable, and paralysing" fear are also suggestive to me. Is there another author Benson and Roosevelt may have read in common? Or did Roosevelt read Benson? DuncanHill (talk) 21:38, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

September 7, 1851 according to a Thoreau Society blog post with some suggested reading. fiveby(zero) 22:13, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

That was the entry date, not the date the entry was published. DuncanHill (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

oops, how about this tho

Fear, Michel de Montaigne maintained in the sixteenth century, "exceeds all other disorders in intensity." Likewise, Francis Bacon thought that "nothing is terrible except fear itself"; the statesman and political theorist Edmund Burke observed that “no passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear”; and Henry David Thoreau believed that “nothing is so much to be feared as fear."

— Katznelson, Ira (2013). Fear Itself: The New Deal and the Origins of Our Time. p. 1.

Be not afraid of sudden fear, Neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. Proverbs 3:25

The only thing I am afraid of is fear. Wellington November 3, 1831. Stanhope (1888) Notes of Conversations with the Duke of Wellington

fiveby(zero) 22:39, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Ah thank you, Benson would certainly have known his Proverbs, and would have assumed his readers did too, especially in a story which takes its title from Psalm 91. That one I really ought to have known. And Montaigne, Bacon, Burke, and Wellington, yes they make sense, I can hear them thinking it. Thank you, I expect we're rather overdazzled by FDR nowadays to remember earlier uses. DuncanHill (talk) 22:49, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Well I know of Bartlett and he must have known his Proverbs, but could have sworn that Wellington quote has popped up on the desks before. Emerson's "Biographical Sketch" in Excursions and has "I subjoin a few sentences taken from his unpublished manuscripts..." and quotes so posthumously 1863 for first publication? fiveby(zero) 00:03, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Volume 8 of The Writings of Henry David Thoreau, containing the sentence, was published in 1906.  ​‑‑Lambiam 00:53, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

June 19

Is Mosely Mosley?

The Zack Mosely mentioned in the Skyroads (comics) article as being its illustrator for 1930–32, is that actually Zack Mosley or is it just another comic artist with a very similar name? 37.247.31.205 (talk) 05:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

This obituary of Zachariah Terrell Mosley relates that he found his first job as cartoonist in 1929 as assistant on two daily strips by Dick Calkins, one being "Skyroads".  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:29, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

The 'Mosely' in the Skyroads article infobox was evidently a typo, which I've now corrected and linked to his article. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 16:22, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Why didn't ISIS mount a major attack on Israel during the Syrian Civil War?

It seems like they must have had the opportunity. Was it a strategic choice, other priorities, something else? Prezbo (talk) 10:01, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 22:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Islamic State explains why it doesn’t attack Israel (yet) Aaron Liu (talk) 00:50, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks Prezbo (talk) 02:44, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Similar to a dictatorship, internal enemies have a higher priority than external enemies. ISIS prioritizes attacking its internal Muslim enemies, especially “apostates” who do not conform to its ideology or renounce Islamic teachings, rather than external enemies such as Israel. Stanleykswong (talk) 20:10, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't remember whether The Prince had recommendations about that, but it sounds like common sense. 2601:644:8581:75B0:6E68:5922:69B1:DD4D (talk) 23:14, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Comics with two-colour print

There used to be comic books and magazines with bicolour print, often black and red, but also black and other colours. Which books used this the most or was most known for it? Was this during all of last century? ... 94.234.94.184 (talk) 15:11, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Proper books (meaning, not periodicals) used this sometimes too. It was much cheaper than full-colour printing and (supposedly) nicer looking than plain black and white. I mostly associate it with mid-century (say, 1950s to 1970s) as colour became cheaper and higher-quality through the decades. Dr. Seuss didn't technically use it, but the palette used was certainly evocative of it and it was frequently used for early-age reading texts (examples), though not Dick and Jane. I don't recall a lot of comics using two-colour printing; they used reduced palettes, but not usually to that degree. Matt Deres (talk) 23:24, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I think it was pretty common among British children's comics of the 20th century, the likes of The Beano, and parodies thereof like Viz. Chuntuk (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

1940's film with truckload of dynamite

My father recalls watching a film, probably in the 1940s, in a cinema in England. It was in a foreign language, probably French, with subtitles, and featured a truckload of dynamite (or some other explosive), whose brakes had failed. It was not a war film. What might it have been? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:54, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Sounds rather like The Wages of Fear, though that was 1953. Excellent film, by the way. --Antiquary (talk) 19:07, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

He confirms it is, and thanks you, as do I. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Seconded, that was a great movie. 2601:644:8581:75B0:7504:799F:8140:AC84 (talk) 22:39, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

 This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:10, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

June 21

John Ward (geologist): dates etc

I just wrote John Ward (geologist). We have his dates, but not his place of burial.

I have a source saying that his wife, who survived him, was "the daughter of the late Mr. Robert Cooke, of Fenton", but it does not name her.

We know that he was a town councillor, and alderman, but not his political affiliation.

Can anyone fill in those gaps, or add anything else, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:02, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Checking Newspapers.com (pay site), the Staffordshire Sentinel for December 8, 1906, p.10, talks about this guy extensively.[9] His place of death is given as Longton. It says the funeral was held in the Borough Cemetery at Longton. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:19, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

(ec) :Conservative. Staffordshire Sentinel - Monday 03 December 1906, page 6 has two stories, "Death of John Ward, JP, FGS, of Longton", and "Alderman Ward as a Geologist". No mention of wife. Will email the page. DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

For a second there, I thought you wrote him a letter for some information. Then I read the second sentence. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:18, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

An Englishman would write to John Ward. DuncanHill (talk) 11:32, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Funeral took place on Tuesday 4th December 1906, in the afternoon, at the Longton Borough Cemetery. Reported the same day in the Staffordshire Sentinel. No wife mentioned. DuncanHill (talk) 11:00, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

John Ward, born 1837, married Eliza Cooke born 1835, St Peter ad Vincula, Stoke on Trent, 15 March 1860. Bride's father was Robert Cooke. Bride's residence Fenton. DuncanHill (talk) 00:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

June 22

Wikis at Fandom inconsistent??

For some reason, some Wikis at Fandom are inconsistent on the information they say. For example:

The Disney Wiki says that the period where Owl lives at Piglet's House is just temporary. But the Winniepoodia, however, says that Owl permanently lives in Piglet's House and that modern media just ignores this fact. (Winniepoodia should not be confused with pooh.fandom.com even though both are wikis at Fandom that have Pooh as their subject.)

Are lots of wikis at Fandom inconsistent with respect to what they say?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:35, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

What are their sourcing standards? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:02, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

There are zillions of wikis, all run by different people and having different sourcing protocols etc etc. Of course they're often going to say different things about the same subject. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:39, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

User:JackofOz, has Fandom proposed any way to make sure such disagreements are resolved?? Georgia guy (talk) 10:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Fandom (website) is a hosting service; they do not care at all about the users of different clients posting inconsistent details about the goings on at the Hundred Acre Wood. Matt Deres (talk) 13:14, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

And note that the Disney Wiki likely reflects the details in Disney cartoons, etc., which often make changes from the original stories on which they are based – a source of annoyance particularly to Europeans who see their cultural heritage being thus violated. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 15:20, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Why not just read The House at Pooh Corner yourself to find out? It's not exactly War & Peace, and a fun read even if you are decades beyond the age group of its intended audience. Chuntuk (talk) 15:54, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Der Stänker

Does anyone have any idea who the "new guest" is supposed to be in the 1914 cartoon Der Stänker? Japan maybe? (See here for some notes on the cartoon.) Zacwill (talk) 08:23, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Also, am I right in thinking that the implication in the first panel is that Serbia won't stop farting, or am I being vulgar? Zacwill (talk) 09:39, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I suspect that the "late" guest may be the Ottoman Empire. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:24, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I assumed that the black-moustached figure on Germany and Austria's left represented Turkey, but perhaps he is meant to be Hungary? Or Italy? Zacwill (talk) 12:36, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Non, il est un poilu. DuncanHill (talk) 13:09, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

France is on the far side between England and Russia, surely. Zacwill (talk) 13:13, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Agree, and logically, the near-side far left figure should be Italy, next to Germany, then Austria-Hungary. I concur with Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM that the figure in the doorway is the Ottoman Empire. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 15:15, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

The first text literally states "The neighbours [say] (every five minutes): This can't go on any longer". Notice the Title "Der Stänker" which literally means someone who stinks up. However the common meaning would be something like "Stänkerer", i. e. someone who's looking for trouble, for a fight. So Serbia farts, i.e. causes a stink. All neighbours get into a fight. The new guest is not a neighbour, so it must be the Ottoman Empire that had close ties to Germany.--92.210.45.32 (talk) 15:54, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Karajovo

In 1906 there was a massacre at Karajovo, which led to Mr Wedgwood asking a question in the House. So, where was Karajovo and who were the assailants, disguised as Turkish troops? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:11, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

The Bulgarian Wikipedia has an article on the massacre. It took place at the Bulgarian village of Gorno Karadjovo (now Monokklisia) and was carried out by Greeks as revenge for an earlier Bulgarian attack. See Macedonian struggle. Zacwill (talk) 12:25, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 13:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm having difficulty verifying that Karajovo (Bulgaria) is now Monokklisia, Greece. The history on Historical Museum Karlovo website makes no mention of "Monokklisia". --136.56.165.118 (talk) 17:51, 22 June 2025 (UTC) oops -- the search automatically defaulted to "Karlovo" by trying to be helpful -21:17, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

But why would it? Karlovo is miles away from Gorno Karadjovo. DuncanHill (talk) 18:55, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Hansard do spell it Karadjovo elsewhere. DuncanHill (talk) 19:04, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

To be clear, Karadjovo wasn't in Bulgaria. It was an ethnically Bulgarian village in the Macedonia region, which was part of the Ottoman Empire at the time. After Macedonia was partitioned between Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece in 1913, it became part of the latter. Zacwill (talk) 06:08, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Major Attlee's typewriter

In Wilson, Harold (1977). "Clement Attlee". A Prime Minister on Prime Ministers. London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson and Michael Joseph. p. 295. ISBN 0-718-11625-9. we read that Clement Attlee could be found writing his speeches in the flat at No. 10 "picking out his text with two fingers on a non-standard keyboard, probably going back to Stepney days". So what non-standard keyboard did he use, and has it survived? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 11:27, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Might have been one of these or similar (see the Scientific keyboard section). I suggest this because I've got one (a Model 5 made in 1896 in Stamford, Connecticut) which my mother's family (in England) must have acquired no later than 1950 (she learned to type on it), but probably earlier, possibly even from new.

Being the first practical portable typewrighter, they were sold and later manufactured worldwide around the turn of the century, so Atlee might well have used or even acquired one when working in Stepney from 1906 as successively a charity volunteer, political candidate, lecturer, Mayor, and (from 1922) MP. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 14:52, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

If you hunt-and-peck with two fingers what does it matter what keyboard layout you're using? Possibly just figurative language, reading the surrounding paragraphs it is to my mind a possible comparison with Churchill's peculiarities of speech writing. That might be due more to my popular American understanding of the personalities tho. fiveby(zero) 15:00, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I think Wilson was illustrating Attlee's frugality and lack of concern for show. If he had a serviceable typewriter it would not occur to him to replace it with a more modern machine. DuncanHill (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

What is this BibleProject?

I read the Wikipedia article BibleProject. The mission says: "help people experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus". Eh? Some kind of generic Christian app/website? On this page, the video calls Adam and Eve "priestly humans". What does that even mean? I am just reading and taking notes in my King James Version Bible, and I just use that one because it is most influential on the English language, and I want to find the fancy quotes. Anyway, I don't remember Adam and Eve being "priests". What theology is this? And then, the video goes on to say God's promise about a descendant (a Jewish messiah? Jesus?) will come to defeat the evil deceiver (the serpent? Satan?) and restore humanity as royal priests (what is the deal with priests???); and that he will be both a priest and a sacrifice (yep, this refers to Jesus). I have a hunch that this is some kind of Christian interpretation, but I can't really pinpoint what that is. What is this theology?!? Yrotarobal (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

It will be a form of American Evangelicalism (i.e. someone's personal interpretation), likely with elements of Millennialism, espoused by the Project's co-founder Prof. Tim Mackie, which is explicated here. (I haven't read it, being a non-literalist Wiccan – good luck!) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 23:08, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

What is a non-literalist Wiccan? Are non-literalist Wiccans allowed to read non-Wiccan literature like the Bible or Tanakh or Quran? Yrotarobal (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

It means I take the concepts of the Wiccan 'deities' to be useful metaphors, helpful in shaping my mental approach to the World, rather than being literally existing entities.

Wicca has no controlling authorities or prescribed texts, so no-one can "allow" or "disallow" me anything. The central 'Wiccan Rede' (= advice) is "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" (in modern English, "So long as it doesn't harm anyone (including yourself), do what you will", with "will" having a triple meaning I won't expand here).

I do read other paths' texts, taking from them anything I find useful (Wicca is consciously a modern syncretism), and I have actively studied for over 50 years their origins and the historical (or not) facts underlying them, particularly the Judeo-Christian-Islamic ones, because of their historical and cultural importance, and because I am fascinated by history. However, we digress from the OP's query. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Mission statements are often generic. "lead to Jesus" is AFAIK a generic Christian phrase meaning finding salvation. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:20, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

What's the meaning of "finding salvation"? (In encyclopaedic language for non-Christians please.) HiLo48 (talk) 02:14, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

You could oversimplify it to "saving your soul".

For encyclopedic language, see our Salvation in Christianity encyclopedia article!

Aaron Liu (talk) 02:22, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't have a soul. The first paragraph of that linked article is chock full of more insider Christian jargon - sin, separation from God, justification entailed by this salvation, etc. HiLo48 (talk) 02:32, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Unless you're a robot, you have a soul. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:34, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Citation needed. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

By definition. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:25, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

What does the definition refer to? Point a soul out to me. Describe it mathematically. How can we know that a robot does not have one? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

If you have self-awareness, then you have a soul. The essence of your being. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:48, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

No, if I have self-awareness I have self-awareness. For it to be a soul, that self-awareness would need to persist after the death of the body. What is your proof of that? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:04, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Oh, you mean my smell, or "mystic aura".  Card Zero  (talk) 15:28, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Pretty sure ChatGPT hasn't got one yet, but you never know... (also has legal immunity, which is even more useful). Martinevans123 (talk) 14:29, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Note: not just robots... Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Can you prove that robots don't have souls? Iapetus (talk) 11:44, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

This religion believes you have a soul. I don't see how that's jargon; those are indeed Christian concepts but they are written out on plain layman's text. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:31, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

In Chinese, there is a related concept: 魂. That may be used to refer to the general concept of 'soul' and 'spirit'. Yrotarobal (talk) 21:57, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

The concept is part of Christian doctrine. If you want to understand the meaning of "finding salvation", you need to accept the meaning as understood in that context. In a nutshell, Christians believe in eternal life. You, like everyone else, will eventually end up either in hell or in heaven. In the Last Judgement, Jesus Christ will make the decision which of the two it will be. Because of the original sin, every human (except perhaps for Maria and a few more lucky ones) is by default destined to hell, thought to be an undesirable fate, even for just a moment but especially as this will last forever. But there is a way out. Through his death, Jesus has atoned for the original sin weighing down on everyone; by following Him, you can hope to find salvation, meaning, be saved from the certain prospect of hell and instead be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:56, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

That entire paragraph is full of Christian beliefs written as facts. I find that very unhelpful, and it's obviously not encyclopedic. HiLo48 (talk) 09:57, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Seems to me like a reading comprehension problem. At no point did Lambian imply that the beliefs he was describing were objectively true. Zacwill (talk) 10:20, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I suspect that "[t]hat entire paragraph" is intended to refer to the (one-paragraph) lead section of Salvation in Christianity. If so, the claim that this paragraph is full of Christian beliefs "written as facts" is mistaken. The factual statements contained in this lead section are encyclopedic statements about beliefs, not essentially different in nature from a factual, encyclopedic statement like "Aristotle believed that four classical elements make up everything in the terrestrial spheres: earth, air, fire and water."  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:07, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Lambiam, you mentioned that Christians believe in eternal life. However, everything you wrote after that was stated as facts. There is no explicit or implicit connection to the Christian belief sentence to indicate that these are beliefs instead of facts.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:22, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

To me the rest of the paragraph just sounds like explaining "eternal life". Aaron Liu (talk) 14:52, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Read it again. It seems rather more of an attempt to scare someone into converting, than to simply explain Christian beliefs. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:19, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Maybe it is the personal expression of Christian beliefs (maybe specifically Calvinist beliefs?). But I am not an expert of Christian theology. Not at all. My brain on Christian theology is like a mixed soup. But I detect original sin. That's a buzz word. And I also detect predestination? I am more interested in checking out specific religious beliefs and sourcing them. Yrotarobal (talk) 23:59, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

I have read this four times already. What in that paragraph doesn't talk about eternal life? Where's the scare? And this is all clearly within the context of explaining salvation in christianity. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:03, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

I think some people only read this portion: You, like everyone else, will eventually end up either in hell or in heaven. And if a person is raised in a Buddhist- or Christian-influenced cultural environment, they certainly don't want to be in hell. They are afraid of hell. And they can go completely Jane Eyre and make a wise-crack statement that they would rather live long and not die so they don't have to be in hell, even though a person is supposed to say "be a good person" so the person does not have to suffer in hell. That's the scare. And honestly, the scare comes from the fact that some people may be raised in a Buddhist- or Christian-influenced cultural environment, and these 2 religions have a worldwide presence. That's how a fear of hell and a desire for heaven become universal. We just can't agree on what exactly hell is and what exactly heaven is, though. You may believe that Hell Is the Absence of God (literary piece). People in the anglosphere may be particularly sensitive to the word hell and may use hell as part of a curse like "Go to hell!" And the TV show Hell's Kitchen (American TV series) is a show of a bunch of restaurant workers getting yelled at to death by the big boss. The title combines the concepts pit full of literal fire and a place of torture to describe the kitchen that the contestants will be working in. Yrotarobal (talk) 11:27, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Yes, the Bible itself is full of Christian beliefs written as facts, isn't it. It wasn't written as an encyclopedia by a global community of online volunteer editors. Never mind. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:30, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Let's break this down.

The concept is part of Christian doctrine. Topic sentence If you want to understand the meaning of "finding salvation", you need to accept the meaning as understood in that context. In a nutshell, Christians believe in eternal life. Statement of Christian belief You, like everyone else, will eventually end up either in hell or in heaven. Christian belief expressed in a personal way In the Last Judgement, Jesus Christ will make the decision which of the two it will be. Christian eschatological belief Because of the original sin, every human (except perhaps for Maria and a few more lucky ones) is by default destined to hell, thought to be an undesirable fate, even for just a moment but especially as this will last forever. But there is a way out. Solution to the problem of humanity Through his death, Jesus has atoned for the original sin weighing down on everyone; by following Him, you can hope to find salvation, meaning, be saved from the certain prospect of hell and instead be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. saved by grace through faith in Jesus

We may want to do a comparative religion analysis as well.

Buddhism in a nutshell: there is suffering in the world > the root of suffering is desire > do not desire anything > be like the Buddha!!!

When people become 出家人, they leave the home and pursue a Buddhist temple / monastery / 寺庙 and live there with other monastics, separated by gender. Killing causes suffering, so no killing and eating of meat. Sex is linked to sexual desire, and thus it should be abstained. But ordinary lay people may have a statue of Buddha at home to pay respects to.

In both Christianity and Buddhism, there is a problem of humanity, and both Christianity and Buddhism pose their own solution to the problem of humanity. That is all. No statement of objective facts or scientific facts. It has to do with human existence, why we exist as humans, what we should do in this world, what we live for and so on. Do you have to follow the religion? No. You can find your own way, your own solution, to deal with the problems of humanity or maybe just you as you are part of humanity. Yrotarobal (talk) 12:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Ah yes, Maria. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Eh? Yrotarobal (talk) 11:14, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

• Wikipedia isn’t the right venue to argue whether Christian beliefs are correct (or not)… but it IS the right venue to explain what those beliefs ARE. You do not have to share those beliefs, but please respect those who do. Blueboar (talk) 15:52, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

  Hate the dogma, love the dogmatist. —Tamfang (talk) 17:51, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

  This is the original phrase. Yrotarobal (talk) 18:24, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

June 23

band deleted

The page URL, below, for a band called "No Vacation" existed until very recently, is still part of the band's description in YouTube music, and is shown in a Google search right-hand results—yet the deletion log makes it seem it went away in 2019. How can one get the page restored?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Vacation Gkbratch (talk) 02:41, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

You could try asking the admins who deleted it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:36, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

There were two versions. I can't tell if they were related. The later one, deleted from Draft:No Vacation, can be retrieved by following the process at WP:REFUND/G13. The admin who deleted the first version appears to be no longer active, but any admin can deposit a copy in your user space. (There is a process for requesting undeletion, but in view of the complication that there were two versions, it is better to approach an admin directly. This admin writes on their user page: "On admin jobs, I specialize in undeleting.")

The lead section seems to have been, at some time:

"No Vacation are an American dream pop band from San Francisco, California, currently based out of Brooklyn, New York. Formed in 2015, the group currently consists of Sabrina Mai, Marisa Saunders, Nat Lee, Rob Mills, and Harrison Spencer. They are known for their nostalgic, surf-pop sound."

(Terms like "currently" should be avoided and be replaced by something like "as of 2018".)  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:24, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Before you request a refund, please check out WP:BAND (our notability guideline on bands). Given that two articles existed, and that both were deleted, I suspect that the band was not deemed notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia.

That said… things can change, and if more independent sources now cover this band, we can certainly reassess whether we should have an article about it. Blueboar (talk) 16:21, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

The first version was deleted because it did not contain a credible claim of significance, which is a ground for speedy deletion. The second version was draftified (instead of outright deleted) for a lack of sources, and was deleted from Draft space one year later because it was apparently abandoned. This may have been due to a lack of reliable sources, but it may also have been the result of a lack of experience/attention/time of the editors involved.  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:45, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

As an American band, shouldn't thst be "No Vacation is"? User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:13, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

June 24

In general, what compels non-state actors to surrender?

EDIT: Please let me clarify. Given the literature on the Middle East and twety-first century non-state actors, is there a consensus? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shushimnotrealstooge (talk • contribs) 13:29, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

The YouTube channel PERUN published a video today that addresses the weakening of Hamas and Hezbollah and the fall of Syria in Israel's successful bombing campaign. Considering the weakness of their largest ally, what price in morale, lives, and materiel would plausibly bring Hamas to surrender the Gaza Strip to Tel Aviv? Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 03:32, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

@Shushimnotrealstooge This is a reference desk. As stated above, we don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:25, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

They must have something to gain from surrender. In case of Gaza, there are no indications that this is the case. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:31, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

It might stop the carnage. One should hope this would be viewed as a gain.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:38, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

It might stop the carnage, or maybe not. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:09, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't know if there is sufficient knowledge about the motivation of current Hamas leadership to offer more than speculation, which is not something the reference desk should engage in. If religious motivation plays a major role, the price paid by not surrendering may not even be considered.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:36, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Moving away from the Hamas issue and focussing on the general question ("In general, what compels non-state actors to surrender?"), there seem to be two major factors: a) Does the leadership/a significant number of the persons involved believe that they can gain anything by continuing their actions? b) Does the leadership/a significant number of the persons value their own lives/quality of life more than their ideological believes? As for factor a), this could come about after a general cool down of the situation, gradual improvement of the situation, and a lack of support/interest in the general population, e.g. terrorist organizations in the west (IRA, Rote Armee-Fraktion, ...) dissolved/ended under those circumstances. In the cases mentioned, the end of the cold war was important here because it at the same time reduced ideological conflict and the support by allied powers. As for factor b), we don't know what Yevgeny Prigozhin was promised, but then, his ideological believes might have been not too hard to outweight by personal gains to begin with.91.221.58.28 (talk) 09:54, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Note that the IRA ended their armed campaign without achieving their goals but didn't surrender per se, i.e. their leaders ended up in government rather than jail. ETA in the Spanish Basque country is more a case of straightforward military defeat. I don't have a good answer to the general question of when non-state groups decide to throw in the towel. Anna Cento Bull's Ending Terrorism in Italy is an interesting book about this process in the Italian context. But obviously the scale of the conflict in Gaza is a completely different order of magnitude. Prezbo (talk) 12:53, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Thank you -- I will look into that. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 13:32, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Edit--another book that just occurred to me: it's not about non-state actors, but you might also check out The End by Ian Kershaw, about why and how the Nazi regime kept fighting to the bitter end. He basically concludes (if I understood him correctly) that Hitler was unequivocally opposed to any negotiated settlement, as were the Allies, who demanded unconditional surrender. For Hitler personally there was really no way out other than suicide, which he eventually opted for but delayed as long as possible. In his Darwinian honor-based worldview the destruction of the German nation wasn't a concern, better for the nation to die fighting than surrender. And the Nazi regime was structured so that it was impossible for other actors near the top to depose Hitler (although they tried in the 20 July plot), as happened with Mussolini in Italy. Note that I'm NOT saying Hamas is like Nazi Germany, it's just an interesting case study about why people keep fighting when there's no chance of victory. But what you really needs is a survey of the literature extracting general lessons from many situations like this, and I haven't read one of those. Prezbo (talk) 13:59, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Another data point is that the violent zionist terrorists such as irgun, whose political arm was herut which became Likud in Mandatory Palestine stopped being non-state actors when they formed a state. Fanccr (talk) 23:33, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

PS: It is important to understand that this, even if basically true, is no recipe for peace, because it is still a political decision how to bring about the conditions. Looking at my factors a) & b), they both would legitimate two very contrary courses of action: Either kill every Hamas leader and bomb Iran back to the stone age, thereby reducing external support and making life as a Hamas activist as dangerous as possible; or retreating from Gaza and offering either money or power to the persons in leading functions. PLO basically ended their fight when they thought there was nothing more to gain from it than they could gain by negotiating (factor a) and were offered to trade a life in underground for politicall power and personal wealth (factor b).91.221.58.28 (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

There is also the element of “war weariness”. If a conflict goes on long enough - with no real result other than death - the portion of the populace that once supported the non-state faction may decide that all the killing just isn’t worth it anymore. The faction becomes more and more marginalized until they no longer have the resources to fight. Blueboar (talk) 13:22, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

You haven't touched on genocide. The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto fought because they knew what would happen. Christians in Japan were defeated by siege tactics and once in control the Japanese ruling power wiped them out, killing all 37,800 of them on 15 April 1638. 2A02:6B67:D985:CA00:6B41:D192:AA80:2F56 (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

In the case of Hamas, I don't think their grip on power depends on popular support. Since June 2007, when Hamas ousted Fatah from the Gaza Strip and took over power, there have been no elections in Gaza. We have no idea of the level of support.  ​‑‑Lambiam 14:13, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

There has been polling in Gaza since 2007, and even since the start of the current war: Gaza_war#Occupied_Palestinian_territories Prezbo (talk) 16:20, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

These polls do not tell us how Hamas would have fared in an election against opposition parties, if opposition had been allowed.  ​‑‑Lambiam 02:32, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Everyone against the Houthi?

All against green?

Is it accurate to say that all other factions in the Yemeni civil war are antagonistic to the Houthi, no matter what's their relation between one another? Can the Houthi be considered the main enemy for all other factions? --KnightMove (talk) 12:37, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Preface to Les Misérables is available?

Can somebody point me to some source where the abandoned lengthy preface to Hugo's Les Misérables can be read? 49.47.196.246 (talk) 19:50, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about. There is a lengthy preface from Hugo, but AFAIK it can be found in nearly every edition and is by no means abandoned. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

This article is about the Preface which did not appear with editions published during Hugo's life. DuncanHill (talk) 00:08, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Not so. I think it is not considered to be integral to the novel.The original version can be seen here. I am looking for an English translation. 49.47.198.67 (talk) 04:16, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

The article linked by DuncanHill also contains a translation of part of the preface, but not all of it. --Viennese Waltz 06:10, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

What are the Christianities descended directly from the apostles?

In a ReligionForBreakfast YouTube video titled Coptic Christianity Explained, published on Jun 24, 2025, the presenter talks about Coptic Christianity, claiming to be descended from Matthew?!? The Roman Church claims to be descended from Peter, and there seems to be a discovery of Peter's body right below the altar at St. Peter's Basilica. Apostle Thomas went to India, apparently, and founded the St. Thomas Christians there. What about the other apostles? Yrotarobal (talk) 21:18, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

For an overview, see Apostolic see § Sees or Churches viewed as founded by apostles or their close associates.  ​‑‑Lambiam 14:57, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I see some individuals founding multiple churches. How did they do this? Did one apostle found a church, move onto a different place, then found another church, then pretty soon 2 or more places are tied to that specific apostle, and that specific apostle becomes the Big Boss for the specific communities? Yrotarobal (talk) 17:23, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

In the very early years, there were no “big bosses”. It’s more that they were the first to preach the gospel in a particular area, and because they had known Jesus personally, they were revered.

The Appostles felt inspired to travel and talk about Jesus. They left small communities of converts behind wherever they went. Some traveled all their lives. Others eventually settled down, and became associated with one particular community (example, Peter in Rome or James in Jerusalem). Blueboar (talk) 20:00, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I wonder if anyone has done an analysis of all the ancient churches founded by the apostles of Jesus and has compared the church traditions. Maybe by comparing all these ancient churches, we can make a guess at what Jesus actually preached and what Jesus and close followers practiced. Yrotarobal (talk) 20:17, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

This is certainly the subject of academic study by (real) biblical scholars; to do so it is generally necessary to have a good grasp of the original languages (since translations almost invariably introduce unconscious or deliberate biases and novel/invalid interpretations), of the historical cultural milieux involved, and of how the earliest versions of biblical and relevant extra-biblical texts can be identified and/or recreated free of later interpolations (which are many).

This is personal advice with which others will no doubt disagree, but the three scholars I find to be most knowlegeable and objective are Professor James Tabor, Professor Bart D. Ehrman, and Doctor John C. Hamer. They can all be found on YouTube, and often discuss these matters with other reputable scholars in these subject areas. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 16:21, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

I think people of other backgrounds may be more in touch with the original languages. Jews interact with ancient Hebrew/biblical Hebrew with modern Hebrew pronunciation. Greek Christians can probably compare the biblical Greek with modern Greek. Muslims may do a little quranic study, and they may use a little app that has the original Arabic and vernacular-language translation. When Chinese people study the old classics, the classical texts would have a modern Chinese translation and an interpretation. Most of these peoples seem to be intimate to the original language because they are exposed to the original language and modern language at the same time. It is just the presentation of writing. And then there are Christians. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic; for the Latin church, it was translated to Latin, but Latin fell out of favor and Western Christians started using ONLY the vernacular languages. The Protestant spirit of reading the Bible for oneself must have spread onto the Roman Catholics, and now even Roman Catholic lay people read the Bible for themselves in the vernacular language instead of relying on dedicated professionals who may understand the original language(s) to interpret scripture. Yrotarobal (talk) 17:19, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

What they founded was called, in the Koine language of the day, an ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía), which now is usually translated as "church", but at the time just meant a "gathering", in this case of followers of Christ. Some of these groups withered, some managed to hang on or even blossomed. Continuity from a first-century original gathering allegedly founded by an apostle to some present-day Church is based on oral tradition and not an established historical facts.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:55, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Historical facts are based on written history. Anything before history would be pre-history. Oral tradition is transmitted orally. But so is folklore. Beowulf, Tang Sanzang Aboriginal Australian folklore that contain meteors. There may be some element of truth and some embellishments. The ancient churches seem to maintain Holy Tradition, of which Holy Scripture is a part; and they were likely formed at a time when oral transmission was prominent in society. But because it is not written down, it is difficult to prove; but I guess you can say the same thing for just about any kind of folklore around the world. Folklore is not historical fact; they are based on oral transmission and a part of the human experience. Perhaps, anthropologists would value folklore much more than historians who may only value the written record and treat the written record as the only thing that can be valid. Yrotarobal (talk) 22:08, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I think historians also value archaeological evidence, but this of course has to be interpreted, and interpretations depend on pre-existing ideas and may change in the light of new evidence. Written records are at least definitely what someone chose to express, although they may not correspond to objective fact, and require an understanding of their language that might be quite imperfect, especially if it is 'dead'. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 17:38, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I think both archaeological evidence and written records are based on what the human eyes can see, what can be observed directly with the senses. And it is assumed that objective fact is based on the senses. So, if a blind person cannot see color, does that mean that color does not exist? Color exists because it is what the seeing person perceives, and the seeing person tells the information to the blind person that colors exist. The perception of colors can also be a bit distorted too. That reminds me of John Dalton the color-blind chemist or Beethoven the stone-deaf musician. I am going to say that objective is just something that is widely agreed upon, and fact is something that is widely agreed upon, with scientific/empirical evidence meaning something that is based on making null hypotheses and alternative hypotheses and making everything a logical problem. But then, I think one will wander into non-scientific category, like the humanities or the arts, where scientific logic-based proofs may be amusing, but irrelevant. I think evidence in the humanities and the arts are based on human experience and perception. Like perceiving a certain main character is gay/lesbian. Or perceiving the tee-pee behavior of someone's house as death in the family because white color is associated with death in the culture, then assigned to a completely different culture. It is not empirical evidence. It is human experience and perception evidence, which may just be a product of the brain activity. Yrotarobal (talk) 18:15, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Not clear what you're saying, but it sounds like old-fashioned post-modernist relativism that denies an external world. All signs are that objective reality exists, but our persistent attempts to get closer to it must be formed only from what we can agree on, so it's an unended quest. When the objective reality in question is the reality of the past minds of long dead people this is particularly sketchy.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:07, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I think that the whole conversation has gone on a tangent, and now it makes no sense whatsoever.

To get back on track: the original person said, based on oral tradition and not an established historical facts. Another person mentioned archaeological evidence and written records, which may not match up to objective fact.

I am reminded of a personal anecdote of mine. Through my father's side and mother's side of the family tree, I am told stories of my parents' generation and my grandparents' generation and my parents' grandparents' generation. My mother's maternal grandfather came from a poor family. Somehow, a landlord gave him the opportunity to become a 陪读 (similar to a "study buddy" in an anglophone context). Basically, he became a study buddy for the landlord's son and essentially learned how to read and write that way, tutored the landlord's son, and then tutored his own siblings how to read and write. He got himself and his brothers out of the rural village, and they studied and practiced medicine. Then, he married a woman who was the daughter of a landlord, and together they had 5 children; the second-born child gave birth to my mother, who gave birth to me. I suppose I can call it "family lore" because it is transmitted orally. My immediate family (mom, dad, me) doesn't have the pictures, but our extended relatives in China do have pictures. They probably have knowledge of which school the ancestor(s) went to, and if we want to find out, we may have to contact the school (in Chinese, of course) and look for any records of someone's graduation. My extended relatives know where my paternal and maternal ancestors' graves are located (paternal grandma is still alive), and visiting the graves (扫墓) feels like I'm visiting my ancestral shrines. I also have a faint memory of my toddler self being in my maternal grandmother's apartment, and when I returned back to it in 2004, the apartment felt so familiar. That apartment building was later demolished, because the whole country was under construction. I know that my mother's little brother has actually visited his maternal grandfather's grave because he was worried sick about his daughter's academic performance and future career, so when his daughter eventually got accepted into a master's program and graduated out of it and got married, it was likely seen as an ancestral blessing. I am pretty sure that there are historical records somewhere in China. Maybe our extended relatives are keeping them or the local governments or the academic institutions. But I also think that the thing that binds all together is the family lore; and my family lore may just be a tiny piece of the national lore of the Chinese people, tracing back to antiquity and prehistory with little historical records and a whole lot of mythological origins.

I am just saying that oral tradition and historical documents work side by side. They complement each other. The historical documents add to the validity. The oral tradition binds everything together into a story that gives meaning to the people. Where do we come from? Who are we? Where do we go from here? Why do we do these rituals? What do we value? Yrotarobal (talk) 19:34, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

How can we eat? Why do we eat? Where shall we have lunch? You make a very reasonable point.  Card Zero  (talk) 23:26, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I was actually thinking about Where Do We Come From? What Are We? Where Are We Going?, and I first saw that famous painting in a university astronomy class (elective) which began with Isaac Newton's inquiry of the age of the universe and the biblical cosmology; and that class mostly discussed modern scientific cosmology, beginning with The Big Bang and ending with The Big Freeze, though to be fair, there are other scientific theories and hypotheses, like parallel universes or a cyclical universe, but I suppose Occam's Razor plays a big role, and the fact that westerners like to think linearly. Other scientific theories may require a bigger leap of faith, especially for westerners, and once you get to Hindu cosmology, you are walking in religious-cultural territory. Yrotarobal (talk) 10:44, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

There was a Chinese-Latina girl on Xiaohongshu, who was clearly mixed-race. By appearance, she seemed to have a bit of everything. Her skin color was light brown which might suggest admixture from lighter-skin people and her fuzzy hair would suggest admixture from African populations. In her family lore, she talked about how her long-ago ancestor came to the Caribbean(?) and started a new lineage. That man's old family in China was separated forever. This is just to say that every family has a family lore.

If I settle here in North America, then my own descendants may be mixed-race as well, which may come with other family lores and ancestral origins. A descendant of mine may think about the family lore and try to find historical evidence in China (of course, by understanding Chinese), or the descendant may go sola scriptura in a way and reject the family lore for some reason because the descendant's own interpretation is better than the traditional account, or the descendent may find both historical evidence and family lore aren't convincing enough and opt out of everything entirely. Anything can happen. Yrotarobal (talk) 11:14, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

"km war"

Any idea what "the km war" might refer to in the context of Germany in World War I? It's mentioned in the article Pacifism in Germany (specifically this section), and I've put a {{clarification needed}} tag next to it. Perhaps it's just referring to World War I or something, but I don't understand it, and someone else has asked about it too, so I thought I'd bring it here. 🌳 Balsam Cottonwood (talk) ✝ 23:35, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

@Balsam Cottonwood: It looks like a typo, introduced in this edit. I shall remove it. DuncanHill (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! 🌳 Balsam Cottonwood (talk) ✝ 23:52, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

June 26

Where can I find commentary on the New York State Constitution of 1846 ?

Hello; I hate to say this, but in my teens, I watched a John Oliver segment claiming that elected judges tended to campaign as tough on crime, and I have never voted for a state Supreme Court Justice. I now know that in my state, New York, governors used to appoint justices who would not challenge them and that the right of New Yorkers to elect justices was a hard-fought one. Off the top of your head, do you know any law review articles I can read for more context? Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 13:38, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

It is not a law review article and may be more than you want, but there is a detailed discussion in a 2023 doctoral dissertation on The changing role of the judiciary in antebellum New York State. There is a law review article that may be more what you are looking for, George Bundy Smith, Choosing Judges for a State's Highest Court, 48 Syracuse L. Rev. 1493 (1998); I do not immediately see it available for free online, but it can be purchased from HeinOnline and is probably also available from other sources. Incidentally, the highest court in New York is the New York Court of Appeals (established pursuant to the 1846 constitution), and it has judges, not justices. The New York Supreme Court is a trial level court that has justices. John M Baker (talk) 23:04, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

What was the make and model of rifle used in the 1977 Klamath Falls nightclub shooting?

What was the make and model of the rifle used in the 1977 Klamath Falls nightclub shooting? I've only been able to find it referenced as a .223 semi-automatic rifle. Presumably it was a mini-14 or ar-15 pattern though it could also be others. I have been able to find the docket number of the case, 790832929 in county Klamath, defendant Henry, Dewitt C court date 12/19/1979, in the Multnomah County Circuit Court. Fanccr (talk) 13:51, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

It is possible that the make and model was never recorded. In those days the caliber was considered much more important than the make or model. Blueboar (talk) 19:31, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Presumably in the court or police documents there will be note of the model gun used... Fanccr (talk) 20:17, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

The Curse of the AR-15 says that it was one of those. Alansplodge (talk) 21:07, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

A footnote at our Crandon shooting#Notes article says:

A Colt AR-15 Sporter was first used in a mass shooting by Dewitt Henry, the killer in the mass shooting at Uncle Albert's Lounge in Klamath Falls, Oregon on July 23, 1977. AR-15s were also used by Alvin King in 1980 and Carl Drega in 1997. Data Source: The Violence Project Mass Shooter Database, Version 8.

Alansplodge (talk) 21:49, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! Fanccr (talk) 13:36, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Who were the three people killed by Mossad in Switzerland on Jan. 12 1974?

In the article Mossad assassinations following the Munich massacre it mentions that on Jan 12th '74 three people were murdered by Mossad in Switzerland. Could someone try to find Swiss sources, or any newspaper articles or anything about it? There is, for instance, another wikipedia article on mass shootings in Switzerland which mentions a mass shooting of 2 on Jan second, but it seems unrelated. Fanccr (talk) 14:04, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

The source for that information is given as "Hunter, Thomas B. – Wrath of God: The Israeli Response to the 1972 Munich Olympics Massacre", but there is no bibliographical information to say whether that source is a book, a newspaper article or something else. Googling that title together with Thomas B. Hunter brings nothing up, but I did find this, which appears to be a graduate thesis, but under the name of Alexander Calahan not Thomas Hunter. The thesis gives a bit more information about the incident, including that it took place in the town of Sargans, but further information is hard to come by. I searched an online archive of Swiss newspapers without success. --Viennese Waltz 14:50, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! It kinda seems like there isn't much to support the claim. Knowing the town where it's claimed to have taken place is great. That should make it much easier to clear up. I was wondering if it took place in a Mosque or in a Christian Church. Just as a shot in the dark, I'd guess that it's more probable that there are Christian churches in Sargans. I'm a little more skeptical that there might have been a Mosque there in 1974. Fanccr (talk) 15:11, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Thomas B. Hunter is this guy, "Thomas Byron Hunter". According to this his parents used the surname Werner. DuncanHill (talk) 17:56, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

The claim about Switzerland, and the enigmatic Hunter source, were added in this edit by User:Reenem in 2011. I shall ask them if they have any details about the source, as its only google traces are our article, mirrors, and discussion fora quoting us. DuncanHill (talk) 18:13, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

The Hunter paper is Hunter, Thomas B. (2001). "Wrath of God". The Journal of Counterterrorism & Security International. 7 (4). The International Assosication for Counterterrorismm & Security Professionals.. fiveby(zero) 18:52, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

George Jonas in Vengeance puts it in a church in Glarus, Switzerland pp. 245-54, but states in a footnotes: I could find no record in the German-language Swiss press of the incident and As in the Glarus case, consideration of security precluded a direct inquiry from the authorities. My sources agreed to cooperate on condition that no police or security forces would be alerted to research being done on the subject. As a result, I can back up certain contentions in this account only by my faith in sources whose accuracy I could verify in other respects. fiveby(zero) 16:51, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

"My sources told me not to check my sources" DuncanHill (talk) 18:22, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

"Verifiability not truth" has a longer provenance that we thought  :) —Fortuna, imperatrix 11:32, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

However, our investigations show that Aviv never served in Mossad, or any Israeli intelligence organisation. He had failed basic training as an Israeli Defence Force commando, and his nearest approximation to spy work was as a lowly gate guard for the airline El Al in New York in the early 70s. The tale he had woven was apparently nothing more than a Walter Mitty fabrication.

— Melman, Yossi; Hartov, Steven (January 6, 2006). "Munich: fact and fantasy". The Guardian.

and more on Juval Aviv from Snopes and "Secret Agent Schmuck" from Village Voice. fiveby(zero) 19:46, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

This thesis about Gabriel Allon describes Glarus (like Lillehamer) as a "fiasco", and says the victims were three security guards. In one of the Gabriel Allon books the character says "I also know what happened in Switzerland" to a character clearing up the mess made by Michael Harari. DuncanHill (talk) 19:04, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

"I speak for sixty thousand dead"

At the Paris Peace Conference the Australian prime minister Billy Hughes clashed with the American president Woodrow Wilson over the fate of German New Guinea. Wilson asked Hughes if he meant to defy the whole civilised world, "That’s about the size of it Mr President" Hughes replied. Wilson then reminded him that he spoke for only a few million Australians. Hughes answered "I speak for sixty thousand dead. How many do you speak for?" I am looking for good, early sources for the exchange. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:40, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

You may be able to find something in Trove, an Australian newspaper archive.[10]-Gadfium (talk) 23:45, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

I get that you're looking for primary sources—primary as in the meaning in humanities and mainly history—but note that according to Paris Peace Conference (1919–1920)#Mandates, it's "represent", not "speak for". Aaron Liu (talk) 23:47, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Lloyd George mentions the exchange in his memoir of the conference, but does not include the "sixty thousand dead" remark. Zacwill (talk) 13:22, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

The earliest Google could find me was from Samoanische Zeitung of 1 September 1922:

Australia's Prime Minister, Mr. W. M. Hughes, had a busy day in Sydney one Saturday. He draws crowds wherever he goes, and his speeches are not less characteristic for humour and apt remarks than they were in the times before he was within reach of Prime Ministership. One of the speakers at a meeting he attended at Crow's Nest, a Sydney suburb, reminded the audience of a particularly telling retort he made to President Wilson of the United States, who questioned the status at the Peace Conference of a representative of a hundred millon people with one vote with that of a man representing five millions given the same. "I don't represent five million people," said Mr. Hughes, "I represent sixty thousand dead! How many dead do you represent?" — Sydney Mail.

There were almost as many results for the "speak for" variant, but none so early.

Alansplodge (talk) 21:26, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Given American politics at the time… I am sure quite a lot of dead people voted for Wilson. Blueboar (talk) 21:34, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

For reference, the numbers of fatal casualties suffered by the two countries in the First World War were, according to one source: USA 116,516, Australia 61,966.

Considered as inter–national ratios:

100,000,000:5,000,000 = 20:1,

116,516:61,966 = approx 2:1.

Considered as proportions of populations:

116,516/100,000,000 = 1 in 858,

61,966/5,000,000 = 1 in 81.

The point Hughes was making would have been fairly obvious to everyone. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 17:00, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Per World War I casualties. USA combat deaths + MIA 53,402, Australia combat deaths + MIA 61,527. DuncanHill (talk) 17:09, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Interesting: from this table, essentially all Australia's Total Military Deaths were Combat Deaths or Missing in Action, whereas the USA's TMDs (roughly the figure I used) were more than twice its CD+MiA. This would have made Hughes' rejoinder even more pointed. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

June 27

Help finding US census data page

So I found https://data.census.gov/table?t=-4000A&g=160XX00US0684550, which shows the percentage of different Asian groups in the city of Westminster, California at the 2020 census. I also have https://data.census.gov/table/DECENNIALPL2020.P1?g=160XX00US0684550, which shows the breakdown into larger groups (White, Black, Native American, Asian, Pacific Islander, Other). How do I find a page that will show the complete breakdown into specific ethnic groups for a location? FakeHouses (talk) 19:46, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "specific ethnic groups". These six are the only racial categories on the census: Race and ethnicity in the United States census. There is no data from the US Census that breaks it down further. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:21, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I looked at the questionnaire. There's also question 8 about Hispanic origins, and in question 9 you're asked to "print origins" after checking boxes, to specify whether you belong for instance to the Nome Eskimo Community. They collected all that extra specific written data.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:53, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Hispanic is a different dimension considered completely separate from race here (it can even be combined with any of the races), but you're right that I was mistaken. The detailed race breakdowns are actually all in the first link FakeHouses found and mentioned; you just have to filter for all races: https://data.census.gov/table?t=-00&g=160XX00US0684550&d=DEC+Detailed+Demographic+and+Housing+Characteristics+File+A Aaron Liu (talk) 15:13, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

@Aaron Liu Thank you; I didn't know how to find that. Do you know if it's possible to have them appear on separate rows instead of separate columns? FakeHouses (talk) 19:41, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

i didn't know either lol. That's what the "Transpose" button seems to do; no idea why columns are the default either. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:01, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

June 28

Prince Arthur's Death

I was reading today that in relation to King John (play), nobody knows the location of the scenes surrounding prince Arthur's death. And I was wondering why history does not help. Was there a real prince Arthur? If so do we know where and how he died? Or was his death so different from Shakespeare's depiction that it gives no clue to the fictional setting? AndyJones (talk) 13:10, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

• Yes, there was a real Prince Arthur. And, no, history does not record the details of how he died. See: Arthur I, Duke of Brittany. Blueboar (talk) 13:42, 28 June 2025 (UTC)
  • Fascinating, thank you. Odd that Rouen Castle is not one of the places speculated as a location in my copy of King John, which only suggests places in England. AndyJones (talk) 14:01, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

    FWIW, in my non-scholarly and un-annotated copy of The Complete Works . . . .

    ACT IV Scene I opens in NORTHAMPTON. A Room in the Castle with the imprisoned Arthur;

    Scene II in The same. A Room of State in the Palace with King John and others;

    Scene III at The same. Before the Castle. Enter Arthur, on the Walls.

    Arthur. "The wall is high, and yet I will leap down:—

    (seven more lines)" [Leaps down.

    "Oh me! My uncle's spirit is in these stones:—

    Heaven take my soul, and England keep my bones" [Dies.

    Clearly, then, Shakespeare portrays Arthur dying at Northampton Castle. In his day probably he, and certainly most of his audience, would not have had access to as much historical data as we now do, and in any case he would not have hesitated to bend facts with dramatic licence to make the play work better.

[Edited to add] At the time of the actual events, the Angevin Empire was split over England and the Continent, with the latter being more important to its ruling Plantagenet dynasty. Naturally events relevant to this story occurred in both (and Arthur's death, most likely, in Normandy). By Shakespeare's time, 400 years later, the Continental holdings were mostly lost and his audience was focussed mainly on England, so compacting all the action to take place in England, and mostly in the same location, made dramatic sense.

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 17:40, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Not exactly a modern source, but The New Royal Readers (1884) p.252 says:

Arthur, having been sent to England, is imprisoned in Northampton Castle. (Historically this is not true. Arthur was first sent to Falaise, then to Rouen; but Shakespeare's arrangement of the play requires the scene to be laid in England.)

The The Oxford and Cambridge Shakespeare, with notes (1881) p. vi says:

The deviations from history are great in this play.

It goes on to give the account from Holinshed's Chronicles, in Shakespeare's time considered to be a definitive history.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:13, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

June 30

Moab's patriarchs

(Courtesy link - Lot (biblical person) DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2025 (UTC))
Was Lot considered a patriarch by the Moabites themselves?Rich (talk) 02:28, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm not finding any reference that Lot was considered a biblical patriarch at all. 196.50.199.218 (talk) 07:48, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

I didn't ask if he was a Biblical patriarch.Rich (talk) 09:55, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

As I understand it, the only written record of Lot is the Book of Genesis, the narrative of which is covered in our article, but the primary source is the Book of Genesis, chapters 11–14 & 19. Anything else would be conjecture. Alansplodge (talk) 11:24, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Lot is a figure peculiar to the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions which developed from Yahwism, which was a derived variety of the ancient Canaanite religion.

Scholars consider the stories of Abraham to be a 'late literary construction' in writings (the Torah) composed around the time of the Persian restoration following the end of the Judahites' Babylonian captivity in the late 6th century BCE, long post-dating the emergence around the 12th century BCE of the Israelites and Judahites from the Caananite culture which included the Moabites.

Even if the compilers of the Torah had utilised existing Abrahamic folk myths that included the figure of Lot, it seems unlikely that the Moabites, not being Abrahamic, would have shared those particular myths. That said, we have only a limited amount of evidence about specifically Moabite religious beliefs and, as far as I can tell, virtually none at all about their folk myths. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 19:31, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

See also Hinduism and Judaism § Theological similarities, in particular regarding the parallels between the Upanishads and the Abraham legend.  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:05, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

The island on Lock Muick

Despite the claims of Wikipedia (and Google, which in its AI tosh says there isn't, presumably because it's read Wikipedia), there is an island on Loch Muick in Aberdeenshire. You can see it on Google here. The Scots Magazine for 1 July 1970 also mentions it, as a place where Sandy Campbell, the stalker at Glas-allt-Shiel (variously spelt) in Queen Victoria's time, grew potatoes. I would like to know a) what is the island's name, and b) anything else at all you can tell me about it. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 21:47, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

The Ordnance Survey name book mentions the island in its entry for Loch Muick: "Towards the west end of [the loch], there is a small island, on which seagulls are always found." There is a picture of it here. No seagulls are in evidence, however. Zacwill (talk) 23:16, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

• This view of the loch was possibly taken from the north from just outside the cottage... almost identical view

Annoyingly, the Infobox entry of 'Islands 0' is referenced to a respectable source, which however contains only the same (evidently erroneous) entry, so could easily be a typo or blunder. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 08:15, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

July 1

Identify Kuala Lumpur high-rises

Would someone be able to identify the cluster of three sinuous buildings in the foreground of skyscrapercity.com/attachments/274530710_1006930033566857_6495661088138170893_n-1-jpg.2831865/ please, as searching for it or prithipal pannu didn't yield anything useful?

Thanks, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 12:40, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Arte Mont Kiara in Jalan Sultan Haji Ahmad Shah, Kuala Lumpur Stanleykswong (talk) 15:47, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

June 17

Vill du åka tunnelbanan?

I once saw a cartoon in Swedish where one guy asks another "Vill du åka tunnelbanan?" The second panel showed them riding a giant banana in a tunnel with one guy saying "Skittrevligt".

Now I am not a native Swedish speaker but I understand Swedish to a very good degree. I understood that the first guy was asking an ambiguous question "Do you want to ride the subway?" ("Tunnel-track") or "Do you want to ride the tunnel-banana?" and the second panel said something like "Damn cool". I assume the difference between the words "banan" (as in the definite form of bana, "track") and "banan" (as in "banana") is lost in writing but the first word is pronounced banan while the second form is pronounced banan.

Now my question is, strictly speaking, which of these is grammatically correct? The subway version, the banana version, both, or neither? JIP | Talk 20:55, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

The bestämd form of banan is bananen, so "The tunnel banana" would be "tunnelbananen". So "Vill du åka tunnelbanan?" means either "Do you want to ride the subway?" OR "Do you want to ride tunnel-banana". I did find a Swedish lady warning people not to say tunnel-banana. DuncanHill (talk) 21:27, 17 June 2025 (UTC)

I wonder if anyone in the Swedish subway industry has suggested decorating the trains to play off of this. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:14, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

The lame pun can be applied to many things: the runway (startbanan for take-off, landningsbanan for landing), the tennis court (tennisbanan), the golf course (golfbanan), the racing track (racingbanan), the shooting range (skjutbanan), the roadway (vägbanan or körbanan), the slide (rutschbanan), and so on ad nauseam.  ​‑‑Lambiam 00:24, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Link? By the way, "tunnelbanan" is in definite tense ("the subway"), so it comes off as a bit forced to begin with. I find the indefinite variant "tunnelbana" ("a) subway") a bit more natural in this context. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:12, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

For links, try Wiktionary (startbanan etc.)  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:22, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant a link to the Swedish cartoon, not the words referenced... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:36, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

June 21

Clock

Do English speakers ever think that it is n when the hour number is n? This means that for example, it is "three" at 3:59? I have always thought so. I think that there are 24 "hours", numbered from 0 to 23, in each day, and each hour follows the hour number. -- 40bus

If it's 3:59, I would say it's "almost four", not "three". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:57, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

It would go from :00 to :59. I think that it is three from 3:00 to 3:59 and "twenty-two" from 21:00 to 21:59. In Finnish, whole hours are read as nollanolla. For example, 5:00 is viisi nollanolla. 0:00 to 0:59 is read as nolla + minutes. Do English speakers read them as zero? And do English speakers ever use time ranges in 24-hour as like 7-21, if they can write them as 7:00-21:00, 7 am - 9 pm or 7:00 am - 9:00 pm? --40bus (talk) 20:21, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

In English, generally you're trying to approximate the nearest hour. Saying "it's three" when in reality it's nearly four would be misleading. Also, "three from 3:00 to 3:59 and 'twenty-two' from 21:00 to 21:59" is inconsistent. If you're going to use the preceding hour, 21:00 to 21:59 would be 'twenty-one', not 'twenty-two'. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:26, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Context matters. Generally I'd say "It's almost four o'clock", but if I wanted to convey that there was still a little time before a 4pm deadline I'd say "It's three fifty-nine" or "It's a minute to four". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:32, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

In British English, we only say the unadorned number in casual speech, only do so for one to twelve (whether am or pm is understood from context), and only use it to refer to the 'on the hour' time. So we might say:

"It's nearly three" at, say, 02:56–9 or 13:56–9;

"It's three" or It's just on three" at 02:59–03:00 or 14:59–15:00;

"It's just gone three" at 03:01–4 or 15:01–4; and

"It's at three" referring to the time of a future event (like a football match kick-off) as being at 15:00.

We would never say "Zero" for 00:00, (in the military we might say "Oh-hundred hours") but rather "Midnight", and in other times with a '0' in them we usually say "Oh". And we would not use 24-hour ranges (rare, anyway) without specifying the full numbers, so "Oh-seven hundred to twenty-one hundred, never "Seven to twenty-one" which would be completely alien.

As you have been told before, in everyday speech people use the 12-hour clock; digital 24-hour times shown on watches and clocks are in speech unconsciously translated to 12-hour times. 24-hour times are generally only spoken in a military, transportation (e.g. bus and train times) or scientific context.

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 20:50, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

I have grown using 24-hour and digital clocks and when I was younger, I wondered why analog clocks have only 12 hours and why they don't have 24 hours too. And are there any equivalent of [number][am/pm] + noun in 24-hour clock? For example: a 3pm football match - a 15 football match? In Finnish, a time around a whole hour is kello + number, and it can be used with both 24- and 12- hour clock, such as kello viidentoista ottelu. --40bus (talk) 21:27, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Tradition. See 12-hour clock. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:34, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Also Cornish time. The minute hand seems mostly decorative.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:49, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

An analog (circular) clockface with 24 hours would be very crowded and difficult to read precisely (I believe there were a few mediaeval church clocks with 0–23 from an era when precision was not needed). It's possible that some clocks (at, say, Railway stations) once added 13–23 in smaller numbers (perhaps in red) next to 1–11 (likely in black) as an aid when 24-hour times were less familiar. No, British English speakers never say "15" for 3pm / 15:00.

Finnish and English are very different languages and cultures with completely different histories (yes, I have visited Finland); it is pointless to expect correspondences between them at such detailed levels. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 23:23, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

If medieval, a 24-hour analog dial would go 1–24. They were skeptical about zero. (The sundial on that page that enumerates midnight is puzzling.)  Card Zero  (talk) 14:11, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

At the moment I am writing this, the time in Finland is about 17:56. In my methodology, it is "seventeen". In Finnish, it is always read as seitsemäntoista viisikymmentäkuusi, never viisi viisikymmentä kuusi (although maybe neljä vaille kuusi). Does the 12-hour clock have a written numeric form in any Continental European countries. Finnish does not really have equivalent to am/pm. --40bus (talk) 15:01, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Gloss: it is always read as seventeen fifty-six, never five fifty six (although maybe four to spruce tree six).

wikt:p.m.#Translations shows some abbreviations equivalent to English p.m.. The Greek one may be seen in action at el:Ώρα, in the line Με την ανατολή, στις 9 π.μ, το μεσημέρι, στις 3 μ.μ και στις 6 μ.μ. ή στο ηλιοβασίλεμα, "At sunrise, at 9 a.m., noon, 3 p.m., and 6 p.m., or at sunset". This Greek page explaining the 12-hour clock includes a use of "11:59μμ".  Card Zero  (talk) 13:27, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

No, but there is evidence that we do something similar with prices, where $3,999 means something more than simply a dollar cheaper than $4,000. See psychological pricing. Although money may equal time, we apparently don't take quite the same approach with its values. Matt Deres (talk) 23:29, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

June 22

Foxmole

Apparently the soil of Strensall is "sand and foxmole", but what is foxmole? The source is 'Parishes: Strensall', in A History of the County of York North Riding: Volume 2, ed. William Page (London, 1923) found on British History Online. TSventon (talk) 14:06, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find out, but the term is also used in a couple of 19th-century texts referring to Membury, Devon (see e.g. here), so we can at least conclude that it isn't a typo. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 14:27, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Hmm, I also found it in that same text about Membury (and one other place, the article's source about Strensall, which is The Victoria history of the county of York, North Riding, 1923). It could be a typo that was made twice. Or an ad-hoc spelling, or a very obscure word. "Mole" might be for mold or mould, an old word for soil?  Card Zero  (talk) 14:41, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Foxmold is helpful, but still obscure. According to this paper, Een geologische verkenning van het kust gebied tussen Lyme Regis en Seatown, Dorset, Engeland, 1973, Grondboor & Hamer, 27(5), 135-148, Foxmold is "een grijs-geel tot grijs bruin zand met o.a. Exogyra conica en Pecten quadricostatus" [a grey-yellow to grey-brown sand containing Exogyra conica and Pecten quadricostatus]. Possibly foxmole is an alternative spelling. TSventon (talk) 15:47, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

That's a Dutch paper listing English words? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:30, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Wakuran it is a paper in Dutch about Dorset, which explains some English words. It is from 1973 so probably a similar paper would be presented differently in 2025. TSventon (talk) 10:46, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

It's almost certainly a misspelling (or local pronunciation spelling?) of "foxmould", a seemingly obscure geological term for the Upper Greensand Formation found, for example, in parts of Devon and Dorset, England, and typically presenting as sandy glauconite and sandy limestone, sometimes imparting a golden color to cliffs in the area. From what I read, Foxmould is typically found below Whitecliff Chert and Bindon Sandstone.[11] --William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 15:56, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

The source (the county history book) has a footnote after "Its soil is sand and foxmole upon a subsoil of white and grey sandstone", which goes to page 34 of volume 1. Maybe that footnote explains how the Upper Greensand Formation, on the south coast, is present in York. I can't find volume 1, though. I bet this northern foxmole is just some brownish sand with no very scientific classification.

I took another look and found the spelling "foxmoor" in Kelly's History of Devon, which uses "foxmole" too.  Card Zero  (talk) 16:17, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

The book The geology of the country near Sidmouth and Lyme Regis (H. B. Woodward and W. A. E. Ussher, 1911) attributes the term Foxmould to the geologist De la Beche, who wrote, in 1826, "Foxmould (Yellowish brown sand)" to describe a subdivision in the area.^[12] The layer beneath this Foxmould, De la Beche dubbed the "Cowstone Beds (Sands with indurated nodules)". The same source explains:

The Cowstones derive their name locally, from the fancied resemblance to cattle of the fallen blocks on the slopes bordering the coast. [...] The Foxmould is also a local term.^[13]

 ​‑‑Lambiam 05:58, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Thank you all, it seems the answer is probably a variant of foxmould. TSventon (talk) 13:43, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

The Foxmould Member (previously known as the Foxmould and Cowstone Beds) is a formal part of the Upper Greensand Formation, according to the British Geological Survey. Mikenorton (talk) 19:29, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

June 24

Request to translate the inscription of The Virgin Recommends the City of Siena to Jesus to English

Questi sonno e nomi di queli spettabili cittadini stati allo offitio li exeguitori di Cabello Genaio 1479 da finire come segue per sei mesi. E prima Macio D'Antognio di Neri Chamarlengo, misser Iacomo di Benedeto, Nicolo D'Antonio di Guelfo, Francesco Gabrieli, Antonio di Baigio di Guido, Pavolo di Giovani di France di gi 1480 secodo lulio come segue: missere Sotino di Fatio Bellarmati, Pavolo di Tommaso Orafo, Andrea di Iacomo D'Adreucio, Bartolomeo dal Cotono, ser Giovanni D'Agniolo di Manuccio.

The language appears to be Italian, but this is from Siena in 1480. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 02:36, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

I guess it's some older and/ or dialectal variant. Wikipedia has an article for the Tuscan dialect. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 08:02, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

With some corrections:

Questi sonno e nomi di queli spettabili cittadini stati allo offitio deli exeguitori di Cabella Genaio 1479 da finire come segue per sei mesi. E prima Mactio D'Antognio di Neri Chamarlengo, misser Iacomo di Benedeto, Nicolo D'Antonio di Guelfo, Francesco Gabrieli, Antonio di Baigio di Guido, Pavolo di ser Giovani di Francesco, ser Giovanni di Mariano Pacinelli. 1480 secodo Lulio come segue: missere Sotino di Fatio Bellarmati, Pavolo di Tommaso Orafo, Andrea di Iacomo D'Adreucio, Bartolomeo dal Cotono, ser Giovanni D'Agniolo di Manuccio.

The Tuscan dialect is the main progenitor of Italian. My attempt to transform this to current Italian resulted in

Questi sono i nomi di quegli rispettabili cittadini stati all'ufficio degli esecutori di Cabella nel Gennaio 1479 da finire come segue per sei mesi. E prima Macio D'Antognio di Neri Chamarlengo, signore Iacomo di Benedeto, Nicolò D'Antonio di Guelfo, Francesco Gabrieli, Antonio di Baigio di Guido, Pavolo di signore Giovani di Francesco, signore di Giovanni di Mariano Pacinelli. 1480 secondo Luglio come segue: signore Sotino di Fatio Bellarmati, Pavolo di Tommaso Orafo, Andrea di Iacomo D'Adreucio, Bartolomeo dal Cotono, signore Giovanni D'Agniolo di Manuccio.

I've used signore, but the now obsolete title ser is still commonly found in historical novels.

(Disclosure: my ability to produce correct Italian is limited; native speakers may be able to do a better job.)  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:19, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Here's a try: These are the names of those respectable citizens who were in the office of executors of the gabella for six months from January 1479. First there is Mario D'Antognio di Neri, chamberlain, <then other names follow as above>. 1480 from July onwards as follows, signore Sotino di Fatio Bellarmati <other names as above>. This translation into French helped me.-- 2A02:8424:6281:D401:D2C:54C8:C723:1A62 (talk) 12:07, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Eko, eno, esa...

The Childcraft book "Mathemagic" says that counting in Ashanti (a language of Africa) starts "Eko, Eno, esa..." But only one Internet site agrees with this: worldofchildcraft.com (no other web site.) Do sources like Childcraft make mistakes sometimes?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:23, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Ashanti seems to be an ethnicity rather than a language. Also, it seems that orthography in the region might vary, at least for the smaller languages. Adele and Kyode, of the broader Kwa family are fairly similar, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:11, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

There's Asante dialect.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My Ghanaian friends speak Twi, of which Ashanti is a sub-group. In the Twi dictionary [14] you can look up the numbers one, two, three and they all figure. 2A02:6B67:D985:CA00:6B41:D192:AA80:2F56 (talk) 17:21, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

So now is Wakuran's omniglot site wrong? It lists ohunu, baako, mmienu.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:33, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

In the Twi dictionary biako is "one" and mmienu is "two". Going over to Google Translate. 2A02:6B67:D985:CA00:6B41:D192:AA80:2F56 (talk) 17:41, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Oh, the list starts at zero, I didn't notice that.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:47, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

For "one, two, three" Google returns Twi biako, abien, abiesa in line with the dictionary. 2A02:6B67:D985:CA00:6B41:D192:AA80:2F56 (talk) 17:50, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

To be clear, eko, enu, esa are in that dictionary under one, two, and three, as well. There's a lot of options for number names in Twi, evidently.  Card Zero  (talk) 18:03, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

To answer your actual question, yes, everybody makes mistakes. Personally I'd say "all the time" not just "sometimes", but that part is a matter of perspective.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:42, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Zompist's numbers list shows ekõ enyõ esã and similar forms for several languages related to Twi, fwiw. —Tamfang (talk) 03:31, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Using Appletons' Cyclopædia of American Biography

I am curious about how Wikipedia approaches using older styles of English, like the kind found in Appletons' Cyclopædia of American Biography. This was done quite successfully in our article on the 19th-century American aeronaut and balloonist Washington Harrison Donaldson. Both another editor and I expressed on the talk page that we find the article a pleasure to read, engaging, and entertaining. But it strikes me that the MOS must recommend against this, othewise those of us who enjoy archaic English would be employing this style forthwith. So, what say you all? Are we allowed to write articles in the oldest English imaginable as long as the readers understand it? Or are we required to modernize the style we use, and if so, what is the approximate cut-off date? Can we write as if we are in 1900 like the Cyclopædia, or can we go back farther, and write as if it is 1800 instead? Viriditas (talk) 20:35, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Maybe we can extend WP:ENGVAR to also cover diachronic variety. Wouldn'it be totally skibidi to read all about Beowulf in Ænglisc?  ​‑‑Lambiam 13:44, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

I take it the cutoff is 1700, then? Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

There exists an article in Ænglisc, although it's very rudimentary. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:03, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Got it. Just wondering what the cutoff date is for modern English, in terms of it not throwing readers off here. In other words, if someone from the past wrote an article on Wikipedia in English with the goal of not being recognized and found out, at what point what they be caught? I suspect 1850 is the earliest date. What do you think? I've heard it said elsewhere that a century is basically the limit, so the reality is that it would be closer to 1925. Viriditas (talk) 20:39, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

The Donaldson article reads more like a short story than an encyclopedic article and should be changed forthwith. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:23, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

You're not wrong, but wouldn't you also agree that our best articles have the strongest narratives approaching something like a "story" of sorts? If so, how do we know when too much is, too much? Viriditas (talk) 21:04, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Personally, I would feel comfortable going back to about 1600, assuming modern spellings and avoiding archaic words and usages. In other words, I don’t think there is a specific cutoff, so long as you are writing in modern English, which starts around that time. John M Baker (talk) 23:21, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Right. The only reason I said 1850 up above is because while I was working on pineapple mania, I found that sources before that time became more difficult to understand. There's also the use and preference of longer words such as "circumabulate" instead of to "walk", etc. Viriditas (talk) 00:28, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Longer words are also harder to spell correctly.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:46, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Well, at least you know I'm not a bot. Viriditas (talk) 21:08, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

I'd assume "circumabulate" is attested later than "walk", though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:51, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Some may derive Pleaſure from ſuch antiquat'd Æſþeticks, but many may not. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 21:07, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

June 27

Can you help me with the rules of apostrophes?

When writing about a political party that represents workers, would you call it a worker's party or a workers' party? What's the difference between these two? Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 20:43, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

The first one is a party for the worker, the second is a party for the workers. I'd probably use the first option on the principle of least astonishment, i.e. I don't want anybody to think about the apostrophe.  Card Zero  (talk) 23:09, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Or you could omit it altogether, as in "Socialist Workers Party". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk • contribs) 23:39, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

As a statement about the party's platform, I'd write that the party is a workers' party. See also our article Workers' Party, and a few book titles: [15], [16], [17], [18], [19]. Compare how one would probably use a working men's party.^[20][21][22] But if, in the context, you'd be inclined to use a working man's party (being a party after a working man's own heart, a party preferred by workers), write, gender-neutrally, a worker's party.^[23]

I'm not saying that the other choice is wrong; merely that this is what I'd write, based on the meaning I'm trying to convey.  ​‑‑Lambiam 03:37, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

It could even be described one way and named the other. Discontent among the workers of Boston has led to the development of a worker's party, The Boston Workers' Party. This translation of a letter by Engels does that.  Card Zero  (talk) 06:00, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Engels used the German compound noun Arbeiterpartei both as a common noun and as part of a proper noun. (Common nouns are capitalized in German just like proper nouns.) Since the singular and plural of German Arbeiter are the same, the compound noun is ambiguous, providing a justification for the different translation of Engels' use of Arbeiterpartei as a common noun.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:54, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, so it doesn't correspond to anything in the original German, I did wonder.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:37, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

German tends to use the plural, e.g. a women's party would be a Frauenpartei rather than a Fraupartei, (to be honest: there is still ambiguity as the -en in the middle could be considered a filler. like "Liebfrauenkirche" and not "Liebfraukirche" for a church of our lady.). -- 2A02:8424:6281:D401:B4EF:8C10:BD19:AF71 (talk) 17:34, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure on whether the -en-affix-here should be interpreted as a plural marker for the noun, rather than an adjectival marker similar to its usage in "golden" and "wheaten". Cf. wolven and goaten. (I.e. a party pertaining to women.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:15, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

The interfix -en- of Frauenzimmer is definitively not the plural -en.  ​‑‑Lambiam 05:30, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

To me, "worker's party" sounds like it's for the benefit of one person. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:56, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

An individual worker usually has one favourite party; this party is the worker's party.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:42, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Worker of the world, unite! Clarityfiend (talk) 06:40, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Mother's Day and Father's Day are days for all the respective parents, despite taking the singular. DuncanHill (talk) 10:08, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

But for each celebrant, there is (usually) only one relevant mother and father. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.,230.195] 90.192.251.148 (talk) 13:14, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

June 29

Cayman Islands English

Hello there, I came across the article called Cayman Islands English and when I read there, it says that it is an English variety, just like other Caribbean English dialects. But unlike other varieties, is Cayman Islands English that different from other Caribbean English varieties, like Jamaican English or Bahamian English? 2600:387:F:5719:0:0:0:3 (talk) 11:38, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

How do you quantify "that different"? Obviously there must be some difference or there would be no need to have distinguished this variety in the first place. As a starting point, see the compared versions of a single sentence at Caribbean English#Samples. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 13:12, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

The situation on the Cayman Islands is different from, for example, Jamaica. The designations Cayman Islands English and Cayman Creole are synonyms, whereas the range from Jamaican English to Jamaican Creole is spanned by a continuum with no clear delineation between the two, although the extreme ends are different languages (different grammar and different lexicon).  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:31, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

I suspect this is illusory, reflecting an inadequacy of our article and perhaps a different analytical approach by some scholars: A Google AI overview answer (yes, not reliable) is:

Cayman Islands English:

This is the official language and the language used in formal settings, education, and government. It encompasses a range of dialects spoken throughout the islands, with influences from English, Scottish, and Welsh settlers.

Cayman Islands Creole:

This is a local dialect, or a variety of English, that has developed unique features due to the islands' history and interactions with other languages. It's not a separate language but rather a distinct way of speaking English, influenced by the languages of early settlers, African people, and sailors.

Continuum:

The relationship between standard English and Creole in the Cayman Islands, like in other Caribbean territories, can be seen as a continuum. It's not always a clear-cut distinction between the two, and speakers might shift between different levels of formality and dialect depending on the context.

While this answer cannot be trusted, it seems to me to be more likely to be true(ish) than the assertion that there is only a single variety/creole, rather than there being both with a continuum between them as is the case in most other similar situations. Is there a Caribbean linguist in the House? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 00:53, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

In no language community is there only a single variety of that language. Uncs have a skill issue understanding Gen Alpha speak. Update courses in vernacular English are offered for British expats, native speakers, returning to the UK after a couple of years abroad. Any natural language has a multidimensional continuum of varieties, with, next to regional and generational, also status-based, class-based and gender-based variation.

There is no good definition of when two distinguishable vernaculars become different languages. Nevertheless, linguists agree that Spanish and Portuguese are not different sets of varieties of some Iberian Romance language but (although connected in a continuum) genuinely different languages. Conversely, while European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese have notable differences, there is consensus among linguists that they are sets of varieties of the Portuguese language.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:12, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Quoting from the chapter "An annotated list of creoles, pidgins, and mixed languages" of the book Pidgins and Creoles: An Introduction:

Some islands do not possess creole forms of English, but rather 'ordinary' dialects of English. Among these would appear to be the Cayman Islands, and the Bay Islands of Honduras.^[24]

 ​‑‑Lambiam 06:48, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough: would be a good reference to add to the article. And may I reiterate that the OP seemed to be questioning that Caymans Island English was sufficiently different from "other Caribbean English varieties" to be recognised in its own right? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 07:59, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

July 1

Māori Place Names

I have a few questions about Māori toponymy in New Zealand. In particular about these places: Auckland / Tāmaki Makaurau, Christchurch / Ōtautahi, Hamilton / Kirikiriroa, Napier / Ahuriri, New Plymouth / Ngāmotu, Wellington / Te Whanganui-a-Tara, Westport / Kawatiri.
1) Was there already a Maori village with a Maori name that was later colonized and given a new English name?
2) Was the city / town created by Europeans and was later given a Maori name? In this case when did the usage of the Maori name start to be officially used? Was it already in oral / traditional usage for the city / town or for the general area? thank you! 79.42.126.115 (talk) 08:57, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

This might be somewhat prejudiced speculation, but the whole idea of a named town area sounds more colonial than Maori to me. What do the Maori names mean? I guess that some of them might be calques from or phonetic approximations of the English names. Other might be based on some famous natural feature, such as a river, I guess. Natural features and bigger tribes might have names, supposedly. I'm not sure on whether the pre-colonial Maori population would be primarily nomadic or resident, although apparently, there was a widespread tradition of building fortified settlements on impregnable hills. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:51, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

This article goes into many of the questions you asked for the specific case of Ōtautahi / Christchurch: [25]. There were several Māori settlements and place names within what became Christchurch, but Christchurch was not founded by taking over those existing settlements. There can be some disagreement over which (if any) of the existing place names should be used for the modern city. —Amble (talk) 14:56, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

June 18

Manami Aiba video game appareance

TV Tropes says she's playable in My Hero One's Justice 2 but i cannot find any other evidence to support this

Did i missed anything or have i just been victim of an hoax? Trade (talk) 00:21, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

She is listed as DLC on the official site, as a package with a villain called Danjuro Tobita or "Gentle". Unsure whether playable.  Card Zero  (talk) 02:32, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Time Warp (song)

In that song, there's one verse sung by a woman in a fancy outfit with a top hat. She sings it in kind of a cartoonish voice, what I might call "Betty Boop style" or "flapper style". I was just wondering if there's a more formal name for that style of singing? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:20, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't think it's a recognised singing style as such (though I could be wrong). It's somewhat nasalized, and in keeping with the speech of the character throughout as performed by Nell Campbell, who is Australian, in both the original play and subsequent film, and which to me (a Brit) sounds like a (bad?) Brooklyn accent perhaps parodying Barbra Streisand in the same way that Madeline Kahn (around the same time) parodied Marlene Dietrich in Blazing Saddles. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 01:23, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Nell was not performing a parody. She released more music, independent of musicals, and used the same voice. It is her singing voice either by choice or by nature. The easiest example to find is "Do The Swim." 68.187.174.155 (talk) 18:07, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

June 21

Which capitalization of Skillsville is correct?

Should it be Skillsville with a lowercase V or SkillsVille with a capital V? – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 17:46, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Seems official websites prefer Skillsville (PBS, Sphere Media, TPT); SkillsVille is a stylization for the logo, like "WIKIPEDIA" in ours. -insert valid name here- (talk) 18:28, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Everybody seems to use lowercase, including creator and executive producer Carol-Lynn Parente who complains here on LinkedIn "our entire Skillsville team was let go mid-project". The logo is evidently in CamelCase but when I search I don't find anyone other than us writing it that way. (Speaking of LinkedIn, their logo does not use camel case, but they style the name that way in writing. So the opposite way round from Skillsville.)  Card Zero  (talk) 18:29, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

For a long time I'd read their capital I as a lower case ell, and try to pronounce it accordingly. When I tired of this uneuphonious utterance I allowed myself to consider the alternative. The people who came up with this visually confusing thing are probably the ones who are forcing us to enter mobile phone numbers as strings of 10 numbers rather than 4 space 3 space 3, or signwriters and web designers who still haven't got the message. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:46, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Falsehoods programmers believe about phone numbers doesn't even mention spaces specifically, though the glyphs -, *, alphabetic characters and Arabic numerals all get a mention in the list of 27 possible hazards.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:22, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

The bad actors are the typeface designers who assign identical shapes to distinct characters, even distinct letters. King Charles III was preceded by King Charles II. How about Kim Jung III?  ​‑‑Lambiam 05:41, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

@Lambiam I'm reminded of someone who saw the photo caption "King Charles III" shortly after his coronation and cried out "Oh, no! He's ill!" Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:26, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Which indeed he is (the big C). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:59, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Reminds me of satirist Richard Armour's note that WWII Italy was led by "an unwell man named Ill Duce." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:30, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Maybe someone could write to the show's producers and ask why they have a capital "V" in the middle of it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:02, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

They're probably too depressed right now, what with the furlough thing ...  Card Zero  (talk) 21:24, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

June 23

Same mind, multiple bodies

Is there any fiction about a single mind controlling multiple bodies? I don't mean some sort of collective brainwashing, I mean that it's natural for a single entity to host multiple bodies. Exactly as life on Earth, except instead of a one-to-one relationship, it's a one-to-many relationship. JIP | Talk 23:05, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

The idea has been fairly common in Science Fiction since its early 20th-century burgeoning: see Group mind (science fiction). A prominent recent(ish) example are the aliens called Tines in Vernor Vinge's Novel A Fire Upon the Deep.

See also the entry for Hive minds in the online Science Fiction Encyclopedia. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 23:15, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

The article says "multiple minds are linked into a single collective consciousness". This is not actually what I am asking about. My question was about a situation where there are not multiple minds, only multiple bodies. The same individual mind somehow controls all of these bodies. JIP | Talk 06:57, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

The articles linked are not as comprehensive and detailed as they might be: the concept is treated differently by different writers, and various science fictional examples correspond more closely to your specification, as Vinge's does. See also the character Miss Level in Terry Pratchett's fantasy novel A Hat Full of Sky. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 14:57, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

[Edited to add, JIP] More spectacular examples, though not biologically natural ones, are the artificial intelligences of the starships in the Imperial Radsch series by Ann Leckie, beginning with Ancillary Justice, which can each control simultaneously up to thousands of 'ancilliaries' – human bodies whose minds have been erased. The series (SPOILER ALERT!) is narrated by one of these artificial intelligences who has had her ship and other ancillaries destroyed, and is initially confined to a single surviving human body. As the novel and series progress, we learn much about the ramifications of such multiple body control. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 15:57, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

The Tines example fits your requirement: one human-level intelligence (or better) mind in usually 4-8 bodies. There is a twist, however. If some of the bodies are separated by a great enough distance or killed, they degenerate into individual minds in 1-3 bodies that are much less intelligent.

The hive queens in the Ender's Game (novel series) can control thousands of bodies. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:35, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

One example is is Daniel O'Malley's The Rook, where the character Gestalt is one individual with four separate bodies. 80.63.58.28 (talk) 08:03, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

The Paratwa in Christopher Hinz's Paratwa Saga are twin assassins sharing one consciousness. We have an article on one of the books, Liege-Killer. According to an interview with Hinz, therapy sessions sparked the idea [26]. ---Sluzzelin talk 10:56, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

We have an article on Trumpism, a science fiction dystopia where a single mind controls multiple undead sycophantic zombies. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:16, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

PS: Oops, you were talking about fiction... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Truth is often stranger—and often dumber, way, way dumber—than fiction. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:11, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Ancillary Justice has AI entities that control multiple bodies at the same time, including the POV character. Ivey (talk - contribs) 14:45, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Luornu Durgo —Tamfang (talk) 19:12, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

What about the Agent from Matrix? Cambalachero (talk) 18:31, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Miss Level from A Hat Full of Sky by Terry Pratchett. 213.143.143.69 (talk) 12:08, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

June 24

New sport?

What type of sport is this? https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Iuhkg4LYD2Q 109.54.44.162 (talk) 19:45, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Teqball is what they call it. --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:52, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

That article doesn't explain where the name came from. Was it an arbitrary coinage so they could trademark it, does it mean something in Hungarian, is it an acronym, someone's name...? Anyone know? --142.112.140.72 (talk) 18:48, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

According to Gergely Murányi of FITEQ (International Teqball Federation), "We called it teqball because you need technique to play the game and you play it with a regular soccer ball" (see "With Teqball the world is curved"). ---Sluzzelin talk 19:59, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Cool, I stuck that in the history section.  Card Zero  (talk) 23:10, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. --142.112.140.72 (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

June 26

Looking for an example sentence for the Wiktionary

The entry for the word "open" has definitions for notes played on unstopped strings and notes played by not depressing keyholes and valves. For obvious reasons, I could provide an example sentence for string instruments, but not for wind instruments. Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 02:21, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

"In principle, the sound travels to the first open finger hole before it is reflected, and the distance between the tip of the mouthpiece and the first open finger- or keyhole determines the fundamental frequency of the instrument (...)" (Hyper-specializing in Saxophone Using Acoustical Insight and Deep Listening Skills, Jonas Braasch, Springer International Publishing, 2019, ISBN 9783030150464) ---Sluzzelin talk 05:06, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

By the way, you might find more examples, by searching with the word "tone hole". ---Sluzzelin talk 05:19, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

That is a very good point! Shushimnotrealstooge (talk) 17:50, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

June 27

The Goon Show Depository

Can I ask what kind of website is thegoonshow.com. Is it unreliable Matthew John Drummond (talk) 15:54, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I see different fan sites under .co.uk, .org.uk, .org, and .net. The first of those is titled "The Goon Show Depository". However, thegoonshow.com is not in use (apart from the inevitable domain name squatter offering it for sale). I assume you meant .co.uk?  Card Zero  (talk) 19:21, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

June 30

Nox Archaist?

Hi.

I see the game has no article on Wikipedia, but is mentioned (Lord British article). Do you believe it is encyclopedic enough to warrant an article?

Best wishes

--Kaworu1992 (talk) 02:35, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

This seems like a question more suited for the teahouse! As you may know, that depends on how many reliable sources cover the game significantly. I couldn't find any. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:52, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

There is a book about the game creation, but yea - besides that it's kinda hard to find maybe? And yup, I will ask at teahouse :)

Best wishes

--Kaworu1992 (talk) 10:12, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

July 1

hindi mangal laxmi, parineti

i am arnold.

me and sukruth have support from public demanding protesting dumb tv directors to use better common sense because we cannot sleep due to this fuckn nonsense so

this situation needs to get unfucked right now on dam tv.

on mangal lakshmi,

the director needs to use common sense to tell mangal to prove her innocence that adit's new wife saumya is a fuckn bitch before mangal marries kapil so

mangal's ex-husband [asshole adit] can realize that he should have appreciated what he had previously.

mangal lakshmi & parineeti better finish before me & my wife return to india

or else mangal lakshmi's director's uncle's head will go up parineeti's director's uncle's ass etc.(2601:201:8885:9070:3409:97A1:5B0E:71A0 (talk) 16:18, 1 July 2025 (UTC)).

June 18

Source of FBI Wanted Poster for Luis Macedo photos

I understand that they photo are unlikely to have been taken by the FBI but i need to know by whom and where they were taken. I presume it was after an arrest or something--Trade (talk) 00:28, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

The Arlington Cardinal almost credits it to Chicago PD, and a second time in a later story. Unfortunately it's just "police photo" both times, with mentions of Chicago Police Department further down the story.  Card Zero  (talk) 01:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Is Corey Perry (NHL) the most cursed man in sports history?

He has lost in five (5) Stanley Cup Finals in the last six years. Anyone with such a streak of bad luck? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt714931 (talk • contribs) 19:33, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

@Matt714931: I read about that. In American football, the NFL's Buffalo Bills lost four straight Super Bowls in the early 1990s. There may be some players who were on the Bills team for all of them. Left guide (talk) 20:10, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

You are correct. There were players who played all four years and lost all for Super Bowl games. Further, Gale Gilbert, Cornelius Bennett, and Glenn Parker went on to lost another (fifth) Super Bowl with other teams. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 11:14, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Also, Whitey Ford lost the World Series eight times. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 12:36, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Not exactly. Whitey was on 11 Yankees World Series teams. They were winners in 1950, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961 and 1962; and losers in 1955, 1957, 1960, 1963 and 1964. He pitched in 22 games and his won-lost record for those individual games was 10-8, with 4 of them being no decision.[27] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:32, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

And Yogi Berra spanned those years.[28] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:15, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

It's worth pointing that the late Jim Marshall (defensive end) was one of 11 Vikings players who was on all four of their Super Bowl losses. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:38, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

My quibble here is about using the words "in sports history", and then talking about only North American sports MEN. I don't know the answer, but I'm sure there are some men from other countries, and maybe some sports WOMEN, who might qualify. As an Australian, I might nominate Nathan Buckley who left the Brisbane Australian rules football club he was originally drafted to, to go to the Collingwood Football Club in the belief he had more chance of winning a premiership (championship) there. After he moved, Brisbane won three premierships, including two against his new club, and Collingwood won none. HiLo48 (talk) 03:55, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

He was always the bridesmaid, never the bride. That's a kind of woman. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:52, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Jimmy White played 6 snooker World Championship finals and lost them all, including 5 in a row from 1990-1994 2A01:4B00:D217:1500:709A:8F0E:A0F1:F845 (talk) 00:11, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Harry Kane spent most of his career under a supposed trophy curse, having played almost his entire career for the Spursy Tottenham Hotspur and a disappointing England. There's no run of losses in any one game in particular - rather there's a mixture of near misses and late tournament exits for both Spurs and England, who Kane captained. What elevates it to comedy is that in 2023 he transferred to Bayern Munich, one of the most dominant clubs in Europe... and his first season there was the first Bayern failed to win the Bundesliga since 2012! Spurs also went on to finally win a major trophy just after Kane left. (Kane has now broken the curse, with Bayern winning the Bundesliga this year) Smurrayinchester 14:24, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Uni High's basketball team lost every game for years. —Tamfang (talk) 20:15, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Detail of the 1978 European Cup final, Liverpool Bruges

Bruges played the final in a white shirt with a purple stripe, presumably their away kit that year, while the blue shirt with a white stripe was probably their home kit. If they had won the Cup in '78, would the ribbons on the trophy have been the same colour as one of the two kits (in this case, the white away kit), or would the ribbons themselves have been black and blue, based on the club's historic colours? Thank you. 93.147.231.16 (talk) 21:23, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

I doubt if it would be possible to find out for sure, but it would have looked odd for a team in white and purple strip on the night to have been presented with a trophy bearing black and blue ribbons.

In that era the winning club were given the actual trophy to hold for ten months (rather than a replica as has been the case since 2009). If Bruges had won in 1978, they would likely have been free to display it in their trophy cabinet and elsewhere with black and blue ribbons substituted (or no ribbons at all), had they wished. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 00:32, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

June 22

19th century San Francisco etiquette: hats and facial hair

ca. 1866–1892

This question probably comes up a lot, but I've never seen a really good answer here or anywhere else for that matter. This is a photo of 19th century San Francisco, sometime between 1866–1892, but more likely 1870-1880. As you can see from the image, every boy and man has a hat. From what I've read, each hat gave off social status signals to other boys and men, allowing them to instantly recognize your social status, class, wealth, etc. I don't know if that's actually true, which is part of this question. Another reason I'm asking is that it is believed part of this stems from religious conservatism, but even that is unknown. One thing that I can't help thinking about is that maybe there was an older folk medicine belief at work here. Perhaps people once believed that going outside bareheaded could lead to catching cold, being exposed to lice, and all the rest? It seems like a reasonable theory given the wildlife back then, and all the stories I've heard about people hiking trails in the Bay Area and having all kinds of ticks and creepy crawlies just drop down on them. Then, there's the facial hair. Why so many beards and mustaches? Viriditas (talk) 01:32, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

C. Northcote Parkinson, in chapter 9 of The law of delay, links the cyclic nature of facial hair fashion to the advances and retreats of western civilization. Consider again that last bearded half-century, 1858 to 1908. Architecture was at its worst, recovering only from about 1890. Art was all but dead, recovering only as the century approached its close. Costume was more stuffily unsuitable than at any time before or since. Furniture and interior decoration reached a climax of inconvenience, ugliness and bulk. The theatre was lifeless and great music an heirloom from the past. Religion bulked large in social life but doubts were undermining its basic doctrines; and while the Americans were at war with each other the preachers were at war with themselves. By every standard, this period was very unattractive indeed. But why was the beard so essential to this confusion? Because it was the thicket behind which the older men could hide their uncertainties. Challenged on the truth of Genesis, the elderly divine could retreat behind a barrier which might represent the wisdom of the ages. Questioned about army organization, the Commander-in-Chief could withdraw behind his beard with a screen of cigar smoke - to cover the movement. Questioned about sex, the Victorian schoolmaster could be evasively hirsute. Questioned by his wife, the Victorian immoralist could use his beard in order to blush unseen. The beard could take the place of wisdom, experience, argument or sincerity. It could give the elderly a prestige based upon neither achievement nor brain. It could serve, and did serve, as defence for the pretentious, the pompous, the dishonest and the dull. And now there are signs that the beard may return.  Card Zero  (talk) 02:09, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

That's a funny answer, but it sounds pretty silly. Check out the beard on Eadweard Muybridge. Although he didn't take the above photo, he took others like it, and advanced the field of photography. But to your point, his bio indicates that he was involved in a serious runaway stagecoach crash, thrown from the vehicle, only to land on a rock which smashed his head. More recent historical analysis suggests he sustained some kind of brain damage, and there is an indirect suggestion that he soon grew a long beard (Having fun, folks, don't take this too seriously). Viriditas (talk) 02:24, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Dress styles, including head coverings, have served as indicators of social status through the ages in cultures throughout the world. The character Andy Capp wears a flat cap because he is a plain English working-class sod. Dutch has the expression Jan met de pet (Jan with the cap) for "the common man". Mr. Monopoly wears a top hat; he's a rich rentier who looks like he hasn't worked a single day in his life. The book Fashion and Its Social Agendas: Class, Gender, and Identity in Clothing has a chapter "The social meaning of hats", pp. 82–87, that is not easily summarized, but the almost obligatory wearing of hats or caps by men, consonant with their social status, was much more widespread than San Francisco or even America, and lasted well into the 20th century.  ​‑‑Lambiam 05:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Reading the book now. Thanks! Viriditas (talk) 21:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

The Deerstalker allowed you to deduce all you needed to know about its wearer. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:26, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

It allows me to deduce that the wearer hasn't actually read the stories, as such a hat is never mentioned in them. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:06, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

I have, actually, a long time ago and not in a galaxy far, far away. You can deduce that I watched some of Basil Rathbone's Holmes films. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:25, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

The hat is indeed never mentioned, but in the original magazine illustrations by Sidney Paget of several stories, the earliest in 1891, Holmes was depicted wearing a deerstalker. Since Doyle liked Paget's illustrations and later asked to have him illustrate further stories, we can assume that he gave his imprimatur to the deerstalker, making it canon. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 18:54, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Do they mention Holmes wearing underwear? If not, I hope our cosplayer is going commando, for authenticity. 207.11.240.2 (talk) 13:05, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Ovo energy ad

The Ovo Energy advert running on UK commercial radio at the moment features a talking washing machine that leaves a series of voicemails for its owner, and one of the messages has been bugging me for the last few weeks because I can't seem to catch one of the words. Can anyone tell me what it is that smells like clouds? It sounds like vimy, but surely that wouldn't make any sense. Thanks in advance. This is Paul (talk) 10:12, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Can you find it on Youtube? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:05, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

I've looked, but no success so far. This is Paul (talk) 22:05, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

Could you give the surrounding text (preferably at least a full sentence) in which you hear this soft-smelling word?  ​‑‑Lambiam 17:39, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

"Blimey, smells like clouds!" I haven't heard the advert, but I can imagine that being said, from the context given. 207.11.240.2 (talk) 12:03, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Also consider the possibility that the art director / copy writer / what ever may have deliberately deployed a nonce word to define the "smell of clouds" to tickle prospective customers.

Whilst we have an article on olfactory language there is no mention of clouds. Most of us will be aware that the air holds a specific smell prior and shortly after a thunderstorm. Not that I remember a specific term for this...

Being a regular in a tiny wine bar hidden in a back alley to our Gothic cathedral I once listened to a discussion involving a connoisseur (?) on a specific grape. Multiple terms, relating to smell and taste, were used and some of the words clearly belonged to the jargon of sommeliers, being largely meaningless to me. It may be possible that meteorologists have developed erudite terminologies for sniffing in the exalted athmospheres. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:06, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

There is petrichor, though this is not so much the smell of rain as of scents liberated from rocks (and other things) made wet. 213.143.143.69 (talk) 13:27, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

I think the idea in the advert is that people can imagine what clouds might smell like, as an analogy to describe what they are actually smelling (which I understand from similar adverts is meant to evoke "freshness"). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 00:16, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Clouds are angel farts.  ​‑‑Lambiam 05:13, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

June 26

Forearm lifting straps

"Forearm Forklift" is a well known brand of these, at around $35. These ones[29] from Hobo Freight are $13 and look similar. Anyone know if there is a significant difference? I'd be an infrequent user. I just have a few not too horrendous pieces of furniture to move.

I'm also puzzled by the claim these things can lift 800 lb. It's a two person operation: do they think each person can lift 400?

At a later time I may want to move a 350 lb appliance and I sure can't lift 175. It's a little bit odd that there doesn't seem to be a 4 person version. I'd be interested to know if anyone has tried using two sets (either the forearm version or the shoulder dolly version) with 4 people. I heard somewhere that is possible, but I think the "person"* who said that may have been hallucinating.

* "Person" = Duckduckgo GPT-4o chatbot. I had never talked to one before and I'm halfway impressed, but meh.

Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:105A:A885:CC85:24C4 (talk) 08:43, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

I see "700 lb. maximum capacity" for the HAUL-MASTER Forearm Lifting Straps, which means a promise that if the load is 700 lb, and some agent or combination of agents can deliver an upward force of more than 700 lbf, the straps will support the weight. Home Depot rates the Forearm Forklift FF000012 also at 700 lb and lists a price of $29.98.

People in good condition can support a substantially heavier weight from their shoulders, and there are also shoulder lifting straps on the market.^[30] The risk of overloading one's shoulders or back, with ensuing physiological damage, should, however, not be taken lightly.

I expect that a group of 4 persons can use two 2-person sets, positioned orthogonally to each other (☩) across the centre of mass.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:48, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, some commenters on Reddit said that while the shoulder style might be able to move more weight, the forearm ones are more maneuverable and flexible. Since the items I'm immediately trying to move are in the 100 lb range max, I think the forearm ones should be enough. Mostly I wanted to know if I should spend $30 instead of $13 getting the name brand instead of HFT. I think I will get the HFT ones and if they don't suffice, then either upgrade or get the shoulder type. For the 350 thing (later in the year, if it happens at all) maybe I can rent a stairclimber. 2601:644:8581:75B0:A5A0:D83B:8060:B185 (talk) 21:45, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

I got the HFT straps and they are fine as far as I can tell. I didn't get the FF ones so can't compare. 2601:644:8581:75B0:FE49:AD74:4737:68AE (talk) 03:03, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Is "male as norm" the most common name for the concept it refers to?

I wasn't sure if this question belonged under Humanities or Language, so I've decided to ask it here.

When I came across the Male as norm article, I thought to myself that the term (as it is used) is phrased weirdly and that Male normativity would be a better title for it, but I'm not sure if it's more commonly called that. If there is a more common name, I may make a talk page request asking for consensus as to whether or not the article should be moved to such a name. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 13:28, 26 June 2025 (UTC) – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 13:28, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are preferentially titled by the most commonly used name for the subject, rather than the most technically correct or official, to maximise success in searching for them (see WP:COMMONNAME).

If I were searching for an article about this subject, without knowing what it was actually called, I think I'd be more likely to guess something like 'Male as norm' than 'Male normativity'.

That said, a Talk page discussion would be a good way to proceed. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.41.216 (talk) 15:45, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

I know this as Male default, one of the redirects to male as norm. Generally I agree that starting a talk page discussion or a WP:RM once you have an idea what to do (and what the sources say) is the way to go. —Kusma (talk) 16:17, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

This should merge with Androcentrism.  Card Zero  (talk) 18:52, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Male as norm is not a well-written encyclopedic article, but as it is, it is too bloated and focussing too specifically on the English language in modern society to be suitable for merging into the much higher quality Androcentrism. A better title for a better article might be something like "Generic use of masculine language", since it is solely about the use of masculine forms with an alleged generic sense.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:33, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

June 28

Deadliest single county for United States tornadoes?

A bit of a morbid question here - which U.S. county has seen the most direct and/or indirect tornado-caused fatalities? I've asked around elsewhere but the only two counties we could come up with were Jackson County, Illinois and Hall County, Georgia, although the latter is probably wrong. — ^EF⁵ 14:29, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Tornadoes only very, very rarely respect county lines. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 18:38, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Well, yes, but fatalities within counties. ^EF⁵ 19:21, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

The problem with answering this question is that there are very few tornado-caused deaths. It is small enough that a single deadly tornado can overshadow all other deaths in a year. As such, looking at extremely deadly tornados (the 1977 super cell) will give you a county that most likely has the most deaths, not because it is frequented by tornados, but because it had one very deadly tornado. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 14:27, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

June 29

Educational programming aimed at younger audience

I’m very curious about this media. Can you please explain on why educational programming, such as Nick Jr and Disney Jr are aimed at preschoolers and younger audiences, while TV shows and cartoons aimed at older audiences are primarily and mainly entertainment? What is the reason behind this? Why do shows like non-educational shows get more popularity and appeal than educational shows? 2600:387:F:5719:0:0:0:3 (talk) 10:32, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

My impression is that pre-schoolers are by definition not necessarily receiving any formal education, thought they are at a stage of development when they can absorb a great deal of knowledge, so shows that provide educational elements are thought to be important for them; those that are older and now in formal education are receiving it there, often quite intensively, so may be thought to have a greater need for entertainment as a relaxation from their efforts earlier in the day. Note however that educational shows require some degree of entertainment to retain viewers' interest, and 'non-educational' shows may include educational elements, even if disguised or unobvious.

Educational shows are mostly (though not entirely, see for example the Open University which formerly made extensive use of TV broadcasts) aimed at quite young audiences; non-educational shows are aimed at both older and broader age groups, to the extent that even adults enjoy them, so they have larger appreciative audiences. Since ultimately program(me) makers are in part driven by the ambition to maximise their viewing figures (which attracts greater institutional funding, or advertising revenue, or both), they actively seek to maximise their shows' appeal. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 12:45, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

In the UK, some TV output is specifically designed for use in the school corriculum, see BBC Schools and Channel 4#Schools programming. Other programmes for older children mix education with entertainment, especially on the BBC with its public service ethos; Newsround (current affairs) and Deadly 60 (wildlife) are examples, while magazine programmes such as Blue Peter have a great deal of educational content. Alansplodge (talk) 11:41, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Naure and science shows are classified as educational and are usually aimed at older audiences. Overall, people don't want to learn. They want to be entertained. That is why the nature shows have to keep showing cute or silly animals to hide the educational value of the progam. Science shows have to blow stuff up to keep people tuned in. Any education is sneakily crammed beween the cute animal babies and big explosions. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 14:10, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Native American nations not being independent countries

I noticed the article about history of Native Americans and the present today. I’m motivated about their culture. Native Americans are diverse set of groups and have their own cultures. But would you please explain why do tribal nations or reservations, such as Navajo Nation, Pine Ridge Reservation, and Cherokee Nation not independent countries and are instead part of USA, despite having different cultures, languages, and traditions that are separate from each other and why would the USA won’t declare them independence? I know that the USA calls them domestic dependent nations. And I know that each of them can make laws. Don’t forget that they lasted for thousands of years before Europeans arrived. At least most can run casinos also. Additionally, why wouldn’t they have separate Olympics teams, engage in foreign relations, declare wars with each other, have their own passports, and issue currency? 2600:387:F:5719:0:0:0:3 (talk) 10:52, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Because they are de facto under the control of the USA, for whom this would be disadvantageous. Granting them full independent nation status (assuming they wanted it) would open possible legal claims for compensation at an international level, which would be more difficult for the USA to ignore: see the articles Native Americans in the United States and Native American civil rights for details of some of their potential grounds, and for links to further relevant articles.

Currently these tribal nations have a great many* lawsuits proceeding and outstanding against US State and federal administrations, but many of these have effectively been delayed or suspended for many decades because nothing can force the government to let them proceed. (* There is, deliberately, no central consolidated list, so actual numbers are hard to quantify.)

Hope this helps. Doubtless others will be able to make more informed contributions. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 13:06, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Why would they be under US control, after conquering lands of native? When will they become countries in future? (Late 21st century/early 22nd century) 2600:387:F:5719:0:0:0:3 (talk) 22:25, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

I mean they are under US control now: the USA wants to keep it that way, so will (probably) not agree to giving them independence in the foreseeable future. This is a legacy of the US principle of 'Manifest Destiny' (which as a non-American, I do not of course endorse) and a policy of political pragmatism.

As to "when they will become countries in the future?" – See the notice at the top of the this page: We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate. No-one can give a realistic answer: my own wild guess would be 'not while the USA continues to exist.' {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 00:38, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

A classic case of shooting oneself in the foot while kicking an own goal. Guesses are disapproved of as much as predictions. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:10, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

I called it "my own wild guess" to emphasise its lack of value, and phrased it in a way likely not to sound useful to the OP (or others). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.192.251.148 (talk) 01:28, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Were they ever formally countries or just loose confederations of tribes/clans? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:43, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

The European settlers (especially the European governments) did not recognize the Native American populations as being countries in any way. They were recognized as roaming bands of people, similar to the Roma. I am certain that some people have considered the populations to be countries (or even one large country), but there was no "formal" recognition. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 11:50, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Give permanently blocked users another chance

Moderators here can be overly strict, especially with users who may have autism or ADHD. Not all sockpuppet accounts are meant for trolling—some just want to rejoin and contribute. At the very least, let them use their talk pages to appeal or explain. Some people deserve a second chance.

76.64.95.122 (talk) 23:37, 29 June 2025 (UTC)

Which user are you thinking of, specifically? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:09, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

My friend's account. 76.64.95.122 (talk) 00:48, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

I believe his username was called Ice Age 101. 76.64.95.122 (talk) 00:49, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Unless a blocked user has also been blocked from their own talk page (usually for egregious misuse of the talk page), he or she can certainly "use their talk pages to appeal". See Wikipedia:Appealing a block. Making a sockpuppet account, however, is not the way to circumvent a block; it's just a way of getting the user into more trouble. Deor (talk) 00:59, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

Which they were, in this case: [31]. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:31, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

June 30

Courtesy, thanks

Can someone please fix the source, to the references section regarding Michael Keaton's date of birth? It is number 3. Thank you. 37.159.35.223 (talk) 19:03, 30 June 2025 (UTC)

 Done.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:44, 30 June 2025 (UTC)