Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard: Difference between revisions

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Administrative discussions

WP:ANI § Editors reverting RfC closure at Talk:Forspoken § Indef proposal

(Initiated 17 days ago on 3 June 2025) The subsection "Indef proposal" has been open for 13 days, and there have been no new comments there in the last five days. Would be nice if that subthread is closed now by an uninvolved admin. Kind regards, — AP 499D25 (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposal 2: Dicklyon Topic-Banned from Capitalization

(Initiated 12 days ago on 8 June 2025) Can an uninvolved admin please assess the consensus of Proposal 2 regarding the topic ban and close this part of the discussion, please? Thank you! Some1 (talk) 03:54, 15 June 2025 (UTC)

Consider closing the entire Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents § Persistent, long-term battleground behavior from multiple editors at capitalization RMs, as the discussion and evidence that sprawled into the later threads have context for assessing the TBAN proposal. —Bagumba (talk) 07:08, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Requests for comment

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 476#RFC: Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor

(Initiated 93 days ago on 19 March 2025) RFC on a ARBPIA related organisation -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:24, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

Note for closer: Several accounts in this discussion were affected by recent ArbCom actions (e.g. Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Off-wiki_misconduct_in_Palestine–Israel_topic_area_II) and not all comments by blocked editors have been marked as such. I strongly recommend installing a script to mark blocked users before diving into this. Toadspike [Talk] 13:53, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Agreed with @Toadspike Iljhgtn (talk) 18:47, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

This was now archived and de-archived, and is still in need of closure. There might be a reasonable argument for waiting for the outcome of the current motion as well, but I’m not sure what the best course of action is. FortunateSons (talk) 17:35, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Just to note the motion was closed without being adopted, and has been archived -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:12, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

Which motion? Iljhgtn (talk) 18:47, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

The one linked directly above your comment (archived), closed with no action. :) FortunateSons (talk) 18:58, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

What does this mean? Iljhgtn (talk) 18:59, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

There was a ton of engagement with this RfC, surely it has enough for a formal closure with recommendations. Iljhgtn (talk) 19:00, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

ActivelyDisinterested is just pointing out that a motion which would've (topic-)banned some editors who contributed to the RfC was closed without banning the aforementioned editors. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Archived again, please restore to the noticeboard if you close the discussion. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 476#RFC: Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:55, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

Really needs a formal close soon and an update for the RfC list. Iljhgtn (talk) 18:46, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

I haven't seen a close take this long in a while. Anything we can do? Iljhgtn (talk) 13:50, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather#RfC on date ranges in meteorological event titles

(Initiated 89 days ago on 22 March 2025) RFC expired, please close. 2600:387:15:5313:0:0:0:A (talk) 17:43, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 48#Request for Comment on use of the term "one of the greatest" in player articles

(Initiated 76 days ago on 4 April 2025) Last top-level comment was over a week ago. RFC tag has expired. Needs uninvolved editor to close this. Ladtrack (talk) 21:00, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

It has now been over two months since the RfC was initiated and a month since the last top-level comment. The RfC has been archived. When closed, it will need to be restored to the talkpage. Ladtrack (talk) 17:08, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Novels#RfC on book review aggregators

(Initiated 76 days ago on 5 April 2025) - Requesting review and closure of an RfC. Open since 5 April. Located at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Novels#RfC on book review aggregators. The discussion is lengthy, so the assistance of an uninvolved editor or admin who is experienced in evaluating consensus based on the strength of the arguments in alignment with policy would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Οἶδα (talk) 22:40, 5 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Copts#RfC on statement asserting "direct" descent

(Initiated 75 days ago on 5 April 2025) No comments for more than 10 days, so I think this discussion has ended. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:07, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Notability (music)#RFC: Confusion on applying WP:GNG and WP:NSONG for album reviews

(Initiated 75 days ago on 5 April 2025) RFC discussion has slowed down for almost two weeks. Needs uninvoled editor to close this. --George Ho (talk) 05:08, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Iqrit#RfC

(Initiated 71 days ago on 9 April 2025) RfC that followed a WP:ELN-discussion that followed a talk page discussion. FortunateSons (talk) 09:39, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Forspoken#RfC on Square Enix's comments on sales in the article's lead

(Initiated 64 days ago on 17 April 2025) – Last comment on 5 May 2025 (12 days ago) & RfC tag expired; also a related & broader non-RfC discussion was just started (15 May) at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Should we mention publisher's statements in the lead paragraph?. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:20, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

 Done —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 13:48, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Superscript and subscript typography guideline

(Initiated 61 days ago on 20 April 2025) – Last comment from 27 April. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe vom Titan (talk • contribs) 13:09, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Ramon_Casas#Request_for_Comment:_Subject_lead_label_Catalan_or_Spanish?

(Initiated 56 days ago on 25 April 2025) - RfC was opened about a month ago and has stabilized. While the consensus of the RfC seems obvious, a closure with a definitive statement by a neutral editor would be useful. The labeling question pertains to a large number of articles with Catalan subjects. This and other similar RfCs and discussions will be used as a precedent for such articles. Bdushaw (talk) 12:39, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Template_talk:Current#RfC:_Condense_Template:Current

(Initiated 56 days ago on 25 April 2025) Expired RfC that could use a close from an uninvolved editor to progress to next steps. 05:35, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 479#Screen Rant

(Initiated 55 days ago on 25 April 2025) No new comments in the last two weeks -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:26, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Now archived. If you close please restore to the noticeboard when you do. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:55, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:List of programs broadcast by CBS#Request for comment on including "in development" dates in list form

(Initiated 54 days ago on 26 April 2025) Expired RfC with no comments in over a month and fairly light involvement to start with. RunningTiger123 (talk) 16:56, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: The Debrief

(Initiated 48 days ago on 3 May 2025) - There was a robust discussion but the last !vote was four days ago, and only two !votes in the last ten days. Seems like a fairly straightforward/easy close. Chetsford (talk) 20:06, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#RfC Regarding MOS:POSTNOM

(Initiated 37 days ago on 14 May 2025) This RfC's participation is petering out as we near the month-long mark, and it's probably time for a closure by someone or a small group of someones. Thank you! Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:12, 11 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Dragon Age: The Veilguard#Headings

(Initiated 31 days ago on 19 May 2025) First of a three part RfC; RfC tag just expired and last !vote was on 1 June 2025. Probably should be closed by an experienced editor since the RfC was brought up in a discussion on a larger pattern of editing conflict over at ANI. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:58, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Dragon Age: The Veilguard#Content for lead inclusion

(Initiated 31 days ago on 20 May 2025) Second of a three part RfC; bulk of the discussion occurred in May but there were 2 !votes in June (last one on 11 June 2025). (Repeating comment from above) Probably should be closed by an experienced editor since the RfC was brought up in a discussion on a larger pattern of editing conflict over at ANI. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:58, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Dragon Age: The Veilguard#First paragraph

(Initiated 31 days ago on 20 May 2025) Third of a three part RfC; last !vote was on 31 May 2025. (Repeating comment from above) Probably should be closed by an experienced editor since the RfC was brought up in a discussion on a larger pattern of editing conflict over at ANI. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:58, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Emirate of Bari#RFC: Black African Rule

(Initiated 26 days ago on 25 May 2025) This is going to require a close from an experienced editor. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 15:25, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Total
CfD	0	0	0	31	31
TfD	0	0	12	10	22
MfD	0	0	0	1	1
FfD	0	0	1	9	10
RfD	0	0	0	37	37
AfD	0	0	0	19	19

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 27#Template:EngvarB

(Initiated 24 days ago on 27 May 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 01:48, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2025_June_10#MacKenzie_Carpenter

(Initiated 17 days ago on 2 June 2025) – Please review or relist this discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:47, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Merge proposals

Talk:The Daily Wire#Proposed merge of Mr. Birchum into The Daily Wire

(Initiated 249 days ago on 14 October 2024) The Daily Wire and associated pages are part of a contentious topic area, but this has been discussed for half a year now and the debate should be closed. Thank you.-Mushy Yank. 17:48, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Antisemitism in Australia#Merge proposal

(Initiated 144 days ago on 27 January 2025) Discussion has been open since the end of January and has well and truly slowed. TarnishedPath^talk 01:10, 13 May 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Denver Outlaws#Merger proposal

(Initiated 133 days ago on 6 February 2025) Two users, who may be sockpuppets, were for the proposal, while three (including me) were against and have formed a consensus that the articles cover two different teams, and should be kept separate. No further discussion has taken place in two weeks, so I think this has run its course. — AFC Vixen 🦊 05:06, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

It has now been six weeks without any further discussion. — AFC Vixen 🦊 06:52, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

It has now been eleven weeks without any further discussion. — AFC Vixen 🦊 10:58, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

Talk:2025 India–Pakistan conflict/Archives/ 1#Proposed merge of Operation Bunyanun Marsoos into 2025 India–Pakistan strikes

(Initiated 41 days ago on 10 May 2025) These pages are attracting a lot of active chaotic editing, so if someone uninvolved could close this merger request soon, that would help. This is distinct from the ... standoff merger request that is now closed. Boud (talk) 17:32, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Requested moves

Talk:Google Knowledge Graph#Requested move 3 April 2025

(Initiated 77 days ago on 3 April 2025) Has been open for more than two months; last comment was a month ago. Thank you, Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 19:20, 18 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Satanic film#Requested move 17 May 2025

(Initiated 34 days ago on 17 May 2025) Lengthy discussion mainly between three editors. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 00:23, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Minister for Women and Gender Equality and Youth#Requested move 18 May 2025

(Initiated 32 days ago on 18 May 2025) Further discussion is unlikely to change the outcome.Legend of 14 (talk) 02:59, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Talk:The Holocaust#Requested move 21 May 2025

(Initiated 30 days ago on 21 May 2025) Lengthy and often heated discussion has largely died down. Obviously, this is a sensitive topic that has attracted much attention, so an experienced closer with a firm grasp of policy who can take the potential fallout is desirable. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:25, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

 Doing... I've written a closing rationale. Given the potential contentiousness of the issue, I'd prefer a committee close. If anyone wants to be co-closer, please contact me. Even a committee of two or a closing endorser is fine. Chetsford (talk) 22:09, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:2025 killing of Israeli Embassy workers in Washington, D.C.#Requested move 22 May 2025

(Initiated 29 days ago on 22 May 2025) Very complex RM which has seen a number of different proposals and involved a "speedy move". Have not seen new additions to the discussion in a few days now. I was the user who opened this RM (I changed my username a few weeks after discussion began). OokiiNeko 猫 talk 01:21, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Other types of closing requests

Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#California State University, Northridge (more broadly: do alumni have COI?)

(Initiated 17 days ago on 3 June 2025) A rough consensus seems to have emerged here, but it could use a close with a quick summary for ease of future reference and for allowing the result to be actioned. Sdkb ^talk 17:25, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention

I have been editing Wikipedia for some years now. I have good understanding of username policy. But these days I am noticing that most of the inappropriate usernames are not getting blocked. Some of the blatant violations of usernames are taken to WP:UAA/HP. I never recommend to bite newcomers but practically only newcomers can be reported at WP:UAA. I am confused now, what is the blatant violation of the username? I know that blocking a new user is not actually something we want to do, it is something we do when it is needed to protect Wikipedia from harm. Generally, editors whose usernames are a technical or borderline violation of the Username policy should be given an opportunity to discuss the username and how they may register a new username, but blatant violation should be blocked. Even now we are holding pen on obvious violators. Either we should change the policy or we should be informed more clearly why a blatant violator of username has been given an opportunity when they are obvious promitional and a single purpose account. Hitro talk 19:25, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree that sometimes the admins who patrol UAA get a bit blasé about enforcing the policy. I don't recommend changing the policy, I think it might be better if admins who have been doing UAA take periodic breaks from it in order to reset themselves. At one point I had been told so many times that an obviously problematic username I reported was not going to be dealt with that I just stopped reporting them entirely for a while, since it seemed to have become an empty exercise. BMK (talk) 21:39, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

I think the admins are sticking strictly to policy. WP:USERNAME states except in extreme cases, it is probably not worth taking action unless the user has made at least one recent edit. Usually no action is taken unless the editor is actively editing. Sometimes users register accounts with awful names and then never use them. As far as I've seen, typically no action is taken then.

Also, policy states:

Blocking a new user is not actually something we want to do, it is something we do when it is needed to protect Wikipedia from harm. Generally, editors whose usernames are a technical or borderline violation of the Username policy should be given an opportunity to discuss the username and how they may register a new username. However, users who are reluctant to register a new username and are otherwise showing a positive history of contributions to Wikipedia should be allowed to continue editing in a positive fashion and the matter should be dropped.

This is basically advising admins that if the editor is productive, usernames shouldn't be an issue unless they cross this "borderline" of offensiveness. It might be worth initiating a policy discussion on what is "blatant violation" and what is borderline because when you see the usernames that get reported, there is quite a range of what editors find inappropriate. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:57, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

There is a long list of supposed blatant violators who will never get blocked at WP:UAA/HP. I would like input from Diannaa . I have noticed her refusing most of the reports. Hitro talk 22:11, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

The instructions say to not use blocking as the first course of action. It says "Wait until the user edits"; "We do not want to welcome productive editors with a report at UAA. Nor do we want to waste our time dealing with accounts that may never be used." It's been my experience that usually if the new account does not start editing immediately, they never edit at all. Cases tagged as "wait" and "discuss" are moved to the holding pen, where they are checked within the next couple of weeks. Any who persist get blocked at that point. The vast majority (well over 99 per cent) cease editing when they are made aware of the policy. I see BMK's point that admins should take a break from this task now and then, and I agree. Someone else can look after it for a while; I have been doing it daily since March 11. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:16, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

It's a crappy, crappy job and you should be thanked every day for doing it. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:23, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

That policy needs a good dose of consistency. One of your quotes is preceded by "If the name is not unambiguously problematic..." We have the unambiguous, "The following types of usernames are not permitted because they are considered promotional..." Are these technical violations or something else? We have admins who hardblock anything remotely promotional even if they're asking a question at the help desk. Other admins wait to see edits but shouldn't blarf.com be blocked no matter what and doesn't the softblock message (" Welcome to Wikipedia. Because we have a policy against usernames which give the impression that the account represents a group, organization or website, I have blocked this account; please take a moment to create a new account with a username that represents only yourself as an individual and which complies with our username policy.") adequately convey what the user needs to do? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:20, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Many users think they are naming their article when what they are actually doing is selecting a username. Many users come here purely with the intention of creating the one article about their company, their band, or themselves. Once they find out they will not be able to do that, they leave. There's generally no reason to expect them to change their minds and start improving articles on other topics. Adding: The quotes in my earlier post are from the "Instructions" page, which does not agree with the "Policy" page. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:31, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Users are reporting them per policies. They know what many users may think. You gotta give some extra comment other than "Being discussed with user" while denying the report. I believe the people who report are equally aware with the guidelines and policies. Hitro talk 22:40, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

What extra comment do you expect? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:45, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

I need proper reasons for refusal, specially when something is blatant and obvious. Not an extra comment. I guess you are not understanding me. I have opened this thread here cuz the word "blatant violation of username" is getting out of understanding. Some Usernames are getting blocked some are not . There should be some consistency. Hitro talk 22:53, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

As Diannaa pointed out, there is an disconnect between policy and Wikipedia:Usernames_for_administrator_attention/Instructions#Instructions. Resolve that and you'll probably get more consistency. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:47, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

I raised this topic after reading all related policies and specially essays like these. THIS IS NOT MY PERSONAL PROBLEM. We need consistency NOT specifically me. I have contacted Diannaa 2 or 3 weeks ago and took her view too, it must be in her talk page archives. By the way Wikipedia:Usernames_for_administrator_attention/Instructions#Instructions these instructions are for reporters not for administrators. I am not talking about wrong reports, I am talking about how the reports are being dealt with. Hitro talk 01:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'm probably not going to be liked for this but IMHO UFAA has become a complete joke and it's why I never bother reporting anyone there anymore, In my eyes if someone creates a stupid/offensive username they deserve blocking even if they've only vandalized once (If you block them least you know for sure they're not gonna come back & finished what they started), I appreciate not all reports are block-worthy but compared to say a year ago barely anyone at UFAA is getting blocked these days and as I used to always report there I began to feel like I was simply wasting my time which is why as I said I don't bother anyone, But that's just my 2¢ anyway –Davey2010^Talk 23:39, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

• I don't really understand the reasons for not blocking usernames that are obvious violations of policy if they haven't edited as I don't see what difference it makes. If a username is an issue then why would we wait for them to use that username before we block? I don't understand the argument that most accounts don't end up editing because noting that the issue is being dealt with, putting them in a holding pen, and checking back periodically to see if they've edited is far more work than just blocking with a block notice that explains why that username has been disallowed and that they should create another. Sam Walton (talk) 23:49, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

• I agree, especially since the "username block" notice is, IIRC, fairly softly worded. If necessary, if it would encourage more immediate blocks of obviously untenable names, the template can be softened even more: "Welcome to Wikipedia, my friend, but I'm afraid you've made a wee bit of a teensy mistake: unfortunately the username you've chosen violates our policy about that sort of thing, so, please read our policy here, and then go to here and ask for your name to be changed. It'll be easy, and then you're all set to edit Wikipedia" kind of thing. Waiting for editing before notifying is just plain silly: the only reason a name is created is, presumably, to edit, so why not clear up the problems with it right off the bat, instead of hoping that someone will catch it later along the line? It's been caught now, so deal with it now. BMK (talk) 01:15, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• 85% of the time I soft or hard block promo user names when they're reported to AIV (offensive/disruptive usernames get a instablock). 15% of the time the editor is editing and responding to others in a friendly way so I nudge them towards WP:CHU without the unpleasantness of a block. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:30, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Then you're doing a good job, Neil, and I thank you for it. BMK (talk) 03:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• I don't block unused or stale usernames because blocking's purpose is to stop someone from editing: If the person isn't editing, a block stops nothing. If someone came with an IP edit from three years ago to AIV and reported them demanding a block, it'd get laughed off the page. Yet, people bring 3-year old usernames to UAA and expect their pound of flesh for what? --Jayron32 05:01, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• If a person has made a username in violation of policy, a block stops them from editing with that username, which is a positiive thing. It's attitudes such as the one you've presented here that I object to on UAA. Who gives a flying fig if the username is three years old? If it violates username policy, it violates username policy, whether it's discovered when it's created, three years later, or when it starts editing. A little preventative action would go a long way towards protecting the encyclopedia, since there is a definite positive correlation between username policy violations and policy-violating edits. This is obvious to anyone who's been here long enough and hasn't been blinded by AGF-fever. BMK (talk) 05:32, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Your thirst for blood is telling, but thankfully not a requirement for being an admin. Indeed, most admins are much more level-headed and uninterested in vengeance, as your tone implies that you are. This difference in worldview is likely the source of your misunderstanding of how this situation should be handled. --Jayron32 05:36, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
• Also, incidentally, on the meat of your objection, I never once brought up AGF. I said we don't block unused accounts because we only block to stop editing. If you're going to disagree with someone, don't invent words they didn't say and the disagree with your own invented words. --Jayron32 05:39, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• "Your thirst for blood is telling"? "Vengence"? -- hold on a second, let me check something.... Wow, you are an adminstrator. I thought you were, but your hyperbolic overkill made me wonder there for a moment, since I generally expect better from admins. Why don't you dial it back a little, champ, being an admin doesn't give you carte blanche to whip the rank-and-file editors when they dare to disagree with you. We eben got da vote now, massa.
  I suggest that your approach to UAA is not supportive of the username policy, and that you might want to voluntarily withdraw from duty there in the future, since you apparently can't see the benefit of blocking violating usernames before they have a chance to edit, which a number of -- admittedly non-admin (i.e. lower caste) editors -- seem to feel is a worthwhile thing to do. A violation is a violation, whether it takes places before editing or after. BMK (talk) 06:17, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• So, in other words, you alone get to decide how admins should handle UAA. Nice. --Jayron32 06:48, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
• I will note that Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention/Instructions states "Wait until the user edits. Do not report a user that hasn't edited unless they are clearly a vandal. We do not want to welcome productive editors with a report at UAA. Nor do we want to waste our time dealing with accounts that may never be used.." If you wish this rule to be changed, so that admins are allowed to block accounts based on reports from before a user edits, feel free. Until then, I'm going to continue following the rules I am told to follow, exactly as they are written, even if you tell me to violate the rules in bold letters. --Jayron32 07:06, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• I guess you didn't actually read the thread before you decided to bless us with your interpretation of the situation, specifically the place above where Dianaa makes it clear that the "Instructions" you just quoted are at odds with the policy they are meant to enforce. Now, do you imagine in that situation that the instructions prevail, or the policy they are meant to interpret? The works of man are often errant, but in the final account, the policy is what it important, not that insttuctions, which are secondary to them. I suggest you read, and enforce, the policy, or simply bow out of enforcing UAA if you're not willing to do so. BMK (talk) 08:00, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• There's a difference between a violation and the proper response to a violation. Sometimes, the proper response to a violation is to do nothing, especially where the use of resources to handle the violation outweighs the benefits of doing anything at all. --Jayron32 11:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Blocking all unacceptable usernames on sight would just encourage username trolling. The laissez-faire approach seems more practical. (Non-administrator comment) Debouch (talk) 14:16, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

• Admins are a scarce and busy resource and have other more pressing backlogs to prioritise. So UAA is designed like AIV, to prevent admins being presented with lots of unnecessary reports where admins are not required to act immediately (though they could act), so they can concentrate on blocking those who need blocking most. Most of these users just need the policy or the problem pointing out to them, which doesn't take an admin. Informing them of the policy usually serves the same purpose as a block. When it doesn't, then they can be reported and blocked. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 07:32, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Of course admins are a scarce resource, and no one expects them to scour the project to find usernames to block, but if an editor is good standing reports a username which is in obvious violation of policy, then it is incumbent on an admin policing usernames to block it.' I'm getting a little annoyed with the idea that admins are a independent force not answerable to the community of editors at large. Admins are there to enforce the policies which the community has agreed upon. Although no individual admin at any one time is required to act if they do not want to, any admin who does not agree with the bulk of the community's policies ought to turn in their bit. They may refuse to act, but they certainly should not reject the reasonable requests of editors to block violating usernames: there is a distinct difference between standing aside and not acting, and turning down and archiving a request, which is a typical non-response at UAA. BMK (talk) 08:12, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• So again, you're stating that admins are only to do what you, BMK in the singular, tell them to do, and are not to follow any other policies or rules, and are definitely not allowed to have a good faith difference in interpretation of those policies, because you write with bolds and italics and underlines, and therefore your particular way to understand a policy is the only possible way, and that others with a difference of understanding of those policies are wrong merely because they don't agree with you? Or are they wrong because you've vigorously highlighted your responses to them in every way known to Wikipedia? --Jayron32 11:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Jayron: Your attempts to personalize a policy discussion are disturbing, especially coming from an admin. BMK (talk) 19:44, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• pots should refrain from noting the colors of kettles...--Jayron32 05:06, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry that I forced you to use "pound of flesh" in your very first edit to this discussion, and that I made you respond to my comment with "thirst for blood" and "vengence", and then twisted your arm to make you post comments like "So, in other words, you alone get to decide how admins should handle UAA. Nice." I'm not quite sure how I made you do it -- and would like to find out so I can bend the will of others to my advantage in the future -- but I must have, because you're an admin and I'm not, so it must be all my fault. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, and I apologize profusely for your inability to hold your temper. Perhaps you should take a break, turn in the bit and relax a while. (What am I saying? I can make you do that!!! Trying now...) BMK (talk) 14:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

• You obtusely and deliberately mischaracterized an argument based on policy as "AGF-fever", when AGF was never mentioned as a rationale, and when called on it, immediately claimed to be victimized by evil admins out to get you. I'd call that firing the first shot in the mischaracterization war. --Jayron32 06:28, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

• That's a very interesting perceptual filter you've got going there, Jayron. You should take a closer look at it, since it badly distorts reality, and could potentially get you into trouble in the future. BMK (talk) 12:06, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

• zzuuzz, to be fair to BMK, a hard/soft block takes up less admin resources than messaging the editor, moving the report to the holding pen, and then checking back to see if anything should be done. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:03, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
• User:Mathematics without Borders this one is a good example. A blatant violation of username policy, that got reported accordingly 2 days back. They came back today read the message left by an admin on the talk page and they recreated the promotional page again. 5 admin actions are already wasted on this user id. When will this one get blocked? I am talking about this kind of consistency. If this is not blatant then what is blatant. Why this one was taken to WP:UAA/HP? It's commonsense sometimes, some accounts are really made for one purpose and that purpose is to promote their company or firm. You can't expect a cat to bark, at least not every time. Hitro talk 19:26, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Uneven enforcement is something that has been going on since back before we had formal noticeboards for usernames. The solution now is the same as it was back then, if you disagree with a block or a failure to block you can take the name for further discussion at WP:RFCN. Once there you will get a wider set a views rather than depend one whoever happened to review the report. HighInBC ^{(was Chillum)} 19:39, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'd just like to throw something out there regarding preemptive username blocking. Most of the time, even when the name itself is an unambiguous violation, it's best to wait for edits to determine whether or not there is actual disruptive intent behind the username. If there is, they should be hardblocked immediately. If not, they should be softblocked and allowed to choose a new name. Many websites don't have any sort of restrictions on usernames, so it's not entirely unreasonable that new user User:Poopmonster666 might honestly be here to help, but is unaware that we even have a username policy. Until they edit, we have no way of knowing. There are exceptions, however; I've blocked plenty of names without waiting for edits, but that's for stupidly obvious worst-of-the-worst names whose intentions are clear. But the response has to be proportionate to the damage done. We're not out for blood - if we're telling new users to go away forever for trivial username infractions, that kinda makes us look like dicks. --Bongwarrior (talk) 06:03, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry, but no. Poopmonster666 obviously knew exactly what they were doing, even if they were totally unaware of the specific policy, and should be blocked immediately upon being found, even if they never make an edit. The same goes for Hitlersbuddy88. Some things are just too obvious and AGF runs out almost immediately. BMK (talk) 15:01, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

• Trivial usernames should only be soft-blocked; if there's a username which implies shared use it should only be softblocked with the hardly aggressive sounding Template:Uw-softerblock. Sam Walton (talk) 08:33, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
• Pretty much 100% of what Bongwarrior said. --Jayron32 13:33, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
• I do not support blocking any username unless they have made any edit. Usernames can mean anything in any language unless we interpret their intentions while reviewing their edits. Fucking is a place, kiss means pee in swedish, slut is the word for "the end" (Danish) and fart means speed in Denmark. A username like NeedForFart can be acceptable and appropriate unless the user's edits are malicious. Poopmonster666 does not deserve a block unless they blank Kanye West page and replace it with "I am a poop monster!!! yay!!!" (for e.g.) . Hitro talk 19:14, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, no. "NeedForFart" is not written in Danish, it's written in English. There's no ambiguity whatsoever about what it means. "Fart" as a user name might use that excuse, but if the name were created here, then it's judged by the standards of en.wiki, in English. There's absolutely no need to extend AGF to that kind of quasi-vandalism. Admins need to take a much more pro-active response to this issue. BMK (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

• You have a valid point. There is always an upper limit to AGF and it should not be breached. AGF attitude at it's extreme may become a burden to the project in some situations. Hitro talk 21:38, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Would it be worth an RfC to settle the debate surrounding pre-edit username blocks? Sam Walton (talk) 11:42, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

• Reporting usernames that have not edited is a waste of time for both the reporter and the handler. Sometimes I wish we would do away with usernames altogether, enforcement of username policy is intrinsically BITEy. –xeno^talk 13:26, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

• It's a "waste of time" only if the admin doesn't do something about it. If they let it sit so it can fester, yes, then the reporter has indeed wasted his time, which I believe was the essence of the initial complaint. WP:BITE is just a guideline, so the WP:USERNAMES policy takes precedence. BMK (talk) 19:21, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

If people think policy should be changed that should be proposed on the policy talk page. I see no reason not to block on sight obvious violations, regardless of if they have edited or not. The goal is prevention after all. HighInBC 15:23, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

AerospaceAirAviation WP:OFFER unblock request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

AerospaceAirAviation (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user is applying to have their indef block lifted at User talk:AerospaceAirAviation#September 2015. The request itself:

It has been more than two years since I first attempted to have my block reviewed. Although I have failed to prove that I'm ready to be rejoin the editing community with my first unblock request, I believe this request will hopefully show the admins that I am ready to be unblocked. During this two year time frame, it gave me a chance to look over my actions that have led to my blocking. Since my blocking admin Toddst1 seems to be retired and inactive from Wikipedia, I am not sure who will take over his spot and replace him as the blocking admin in my case. I will clearly address WP:BATTLE like Toddst1, plus, reiterate what WP:OFFER is as well. As I clearly now know, my block was put in place due to aggressive editing, and the sockpuppetry. I violated two big rules of Wikipedia. I did indeed use KevinMichaelBradley as an account to abuse my editing privileges, and potentially start a war with another user on Ethiopian Airlines. I was given the WP:OFFER at the time of my blocking by BWilkins. I understand that this is not a "Get Out of Jail Free" card that is randomly given to me. I have to show and prove to the community that I deserve to be given another chance. By reading WP:BATTLE, I completely and fully understand that Wikipedia is not, I repeat, is not a war zone where you can be at war with other users. Wikipedia is a friendly community where users and IP users edit in good faith. When I see something that is incorrect, I should not be ready to attack the user with negative comments. I should first off, always assume these edits are in good faith. Unless otherwise if you can tell that this is vandalism. Instead, If I see an edit that is incorrect, I should politely explain to them what is incorrect about their edits. Wikipedia is no place to start conflicts and discriminate or harass anybody. I should always act in a calm and civil manner, and not try to start an edit war with a user or with multiple users. Again, Wikipedia is not a battleground. If I am attacked by a user, I should refrain from defending myself. Rather, ignore the user, or kindly explain how the user, or users, are acting uncivil, insulting me, and/or are being uncooperative and disrespectful. I should make sure to come to a consensus with users as well.

If given another chance, I do promise to abide by these rules and always act and edit in a calm and civil manner. I will not abuse multiple accounts ever again. I will never ever aggressively edit any pages if I am given a second chance. And finally, I will never make anymore threats to users and IPs. I do promise and swear that I will make good edits from here on out, and that any new edit that I see is done by another user should be assumed in good faith. I can assure you that these two years have given me a good long time to think about my actions in the past, and how I should act if I am given the opportunity to edit pages again. This is not the place to start any battles, or take out my anger, or create any conflict with another user. I hope that this request can be seen as a huge improvement from the first unblock request that I posted more than two years ago. I am willing to go above and beyond to prove that I have changed, and that I will keep my promise to contributing good edits in the community, and behave more maturely than I did in the past. Thank you for your time. Triple A (talk) 01:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Thoughts? Max Semenik (talk) 04:12, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Sure, why the hell not. Blocks are cheap for repeat offenders; let him back and see how it goes. Unless someone comes up with some evidence that he isn't telling the truth above regarding being away for 2 years, people grow up and change over that time period. If it goes pearshaped, we can always put the block back in place. --Jayron32 04:57, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
• I'm sorry, Jayron, but "blocks are cheap" is a tired old cliche that really doesn't have much relevance to the real world, since editors can do significant damage to the encyclopedia before anyone catches on to their shenanigans and blocks them again. In that respect, blocks are decidely not cheap, once you factor in the cost of undoing the damage done. So let's retire the "blocks are cheap" slogan and take a look at the specifics of this editor
  AerospaceAirAviation's edit count profile shows that they made 341 edits in 3 1/2 years, which is not terribly proficient, although 64% of their edits were to articles (which would be good if they were productive edits), with 30.5% to user talk pages. So, what is that about? If 30.5% had been to article talk pages, that would be a different matter, but why the disproportionate percentage of edits to user talk pages, with no edits to article talk pages? That would appear to be the profile of an editor who didn't discuss disputes on article talk pages, but took them directly to the editor, which is not a particularly good sign. In fact, all of their edits in the last three months of their editing, before being blocked, went to user talk pages. I don't see that as a positive in any way at all.
  My own conclusion from examining the data on this editor is that I am not really convinced that allowing AerospaceAirAviation to edit again would be a net positive for the project. I would be less inclined to say this if someone would step forward and offer to mentor the editor and to monitor their edits while mentoring (too many mentors appear to think that it's a hands-off assignment) for, let's say, three monrhs, at which time they would be free to edit without supervision. Anyway, that's my suggestion. BMK (talk) 05:22, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Over the course of two years, people can change. I am totally willing to give this editor another chance. There is a good chance that will result in gaining a good editor. Of course, there is also a risk that it will result in disruptive editing that will go unnoticed for a while, as Beyond My Ken suggests, but there is no reason to assume that will be so, and it's not too difficult to check the editor's edits for a while. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 16:19, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Support unblock. Cheap are blocks. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:22, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Okay, while blocks do have a cost a block every 2 years is not that expensive. We have something to gain by getting a potentially productive contributor. Unless evidence is shown that this person engaged in egregious personal attacks or threats I see no reason not to try again. HighInBC ^{(was Chillum)} 18:57, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support unblock. Seems like he's maybe grown a clue. KrakatoaKatie 04:11, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
• I believe him. Support unblock. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support. NE Ent 18:04, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Blanking of Madotsuki the Dreamer's talk page

Joshua Goldberg is a young Floridian recently arrested, suspected of inciting terrorism. He edited wikipedia logged out and logged in using more than one account. His User:MoonMetropolis account was indefinitely blocked for socking and edit-warring two years ago. The talk page is not protected or blanked. Goldberg sock User:Madotsuki the Dreamer was indefinitely blocked by User:Guerillero on 18th of this month, after Goldberg's arrest was reported. Guerillero protected the talk page and blanked it. I'm curious about the blanking.

I asked Guerillero on his talk page and he addressed his protection of the page but not the blanking. [1] (In that discussion he says I'm on a crusade of some sort. I genuinely have no idea what he means. Perhaps he's mistaken me for someone else.)

Can anyone here explain the point behind the blanking of the Madotsuki talk page? On its face I think the page should be readily visible to anyone looking into Goldberg's online career, but perhaps I'm missing something. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:26, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

The content of User talk:Madotsuki the Dreamer is readily visible in the edit page history. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:21, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, it's available, but not as readily visible as it would be on the user talk page. That's the effect of blanking: it, to some extent, hides the content. I'd like to know the reason for hiding it. I can see no obvious purpose. I grant I may be missing something. Hence, per WP:ADMINACCT, I'd be grateful if Gamaliel would explain. I don't appreciate him dodging the question and addressing me like a troll ... or a crusader (whatever that means). Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:08, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Why the fuss? Are you concerned about censorship or loss of liberty? Is Wikipedia a battlefield for freedom? How about just assuming that the admin took his actions because he (a checkuser) has access to information that you don't, and that dropping hints about the information would not in any way help the encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 07:50, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your speculation. I'm fairly sure I'm not making a fuss. I'm just asking a question. If I don't get an answer soon, though, then I might make a fuss. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:02, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

You missed an opportunity to mention why you are asking a question, and your reply did not address the substance of my comment. Johnuniq (talk) 11:25, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

He hid a page. It seems pointless and a bit stupid, frankly. If he has a good reason for doing it, fine. Share it. If he doesn't have a good reason - and the longer this goes on the more convinced I am it's just a stupid move he can't defend so he's being rude to me for asking the question - then he should unblank it.

It's a simple, reasonable question from one volunteer to another. I realise I'm just a, you know, editor and he's an admin and all, and I know how very busy he is and how he has so much important stuff to do around here. But I would like him to explain himself ... and without accusing me of being on some imaginary crusade if at all possible. From WP:ADMINACCT:

Administrators are accountable for their actions involving administrator tools, and unexplained administrator actions can demoralize other editors who lack such tools. Subject only to the bounds of civility, avoiding personal attacks, and reasonable good faith, editors are free to question or to criticize administrator actions. Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed.

--Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:48, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why this blanking and protection should be at all controversial. This guy is a serial troll and apparently a terrorist. Why on earth would we want to serve as a host for publishing material written by him? The only reason we allow blocked editors access to talk pages is so they can appeal the block or discuss the circumstances of the block, neither of which is going to happen here. And the talk pages of high-profile blocked editors often end up serving as forums for people to discuss the user or the block, which isn't the intended purpose at all. That's just what I can tell from public information, and from the sounds of it Guerillero has access to private information about the case as well. (Admins don't get to play that card, but arbitrators do.) Hut 8.5 20:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm curious about the hiding, not the protecting. You ask why we would want to host his talk page comments. Transparency. If there's no reason to hide, don't hide. (Do I really need to explain that?) And there is no reason to hide it, in this instance. I know this is a relatively small case. That doesn't diminish my question's legitimacy. My concern is rising, though, about Gamaliel's behaviour in this small case. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 04:27, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Virtually everything I've said above applies to both the blanking and the protecting. We're not "hiding" this person's writings. Anyone who wants to see them still can. If we wanted to "hide" them we would have deleted or oversighted them. We just aren't displaying them to the world. You'd prefer them to remain unblanked in the name of "transparency"? OK, but you don't get to decide what happens here, I don't think there's any policy or guideline indicating that these things should remain unblanked, and it doesn't look like anyone else agrees with you. I also don't think Gamaliel has anything to do with this. Hut 8.5 06:14, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your insights. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Dispenser tools and updates

Hey everyone. I got my Labs account back and getting things working again. Thanks to all those that took the survey. In Dab solver you can disambiguate your watchlist (Multilingual Wikipedias now) and Dabfix has had some usability improvements.

Additionally, IEG 2nd round for 2015 is ending today and since community support is weighted in you should comment. My three proposals are To check images for colorblindness problems, An Alt text game, and for the nerdy programmers out there Telnet version of Wikipedia. Cheers, Dispenser 20:17, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

@Dispenser: I hate to keep mentioning this every time the matter of your old tools comes up, but is there any chance that your coordinates-error tools will be restored? Deor (talk) 11:00, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

@Deor: The WMF decided to scrap community development code in favor of new code in-house. I was consulted only once from the team over a parameter's function. Although, I believe the WikiMiniAtlas is still running it. — Dispenser 21:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Pretending to own images

@Hitch Hicking Across Sahara: pretends to be owning those images that he has saved from other websites. He fails to prove that he is the actual owner of the pictures.

Images include:-

• [2] coming from [3][4][5]
• [6] from [7][8]
• [9] from [10] (scroll below) [11] [12] (3rd last image of the page)

Problem is with his continued edit warring over the tagging of the images, since he don't own them, he cannot upload either. D4iNa4 (talk) 08:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Where has Hitch Hicking claimed to own any of these images? I see that even in his original uploads of those images, he clearly states who the actual copyright owner is, and he does not claim himself. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:15, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

See licensing. He refers to PAF Museum and their material is protected with copyrights. Best he did was, he copied them from there or these links that I mentioned, and then uploaded them here, while having no connection or consent with the original copyright holder. That way, we can take many images away from the same website and simply credit them, but I am sure that it is not allowed. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:22, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Are you familiar with non-free use? If Hitch satisfied the requirements laid out by that policy, he doesn't need anyone's permission. I'm not saying that's the case, but what you've shown has not proven wrongdoing. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:26, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

I think he is not. His sourcing to PAF Museum also seems to be incorrect, because he has no links to show and pics have been copied from these sources that I have provided, can be observed by the moment of the picture (same amount of brightness, smoothness, etc.). D4iNa4 (talk) 09:46, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

The links you provide as the sources of the images are not the sources of the images, and do not claim to be either. In fact, most of the links you've provided explicitly credit the ISPR as the source of the images. The ISPR is a government run public relations agency that services Pakistan's military branches. Hitch indeed did not provide the link where he got his images from, and that's imperfect, but so far nothing looks inconsistent with his claims. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:58, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

D4iNa4 is just returned from an SPI block 1 and started Editwarring and removal of Sourced Contents 2 and a Picture 3 about Pakistan victory in Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 for which he was warned by a fellow editor 4 since then he started warring by an IP and Oversighted the details 5.I filed an spi against him for his actions 6, and he counter filed an spi against me 7 which proved nothing against me, after this i warned him that i will request an action against him 8 on WP:ANI per WP:BOOMERANG and he counter filed this report against me just after few minutes. This report is a Clear example of WP:BOOMERANG. HIAS (talk) 10:03, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

HIAS: I did no edit warring, my version exists on the current article,[13] you did attempted to game system[14] but it didn't worked.

@Someguy1221: if there is no credible source to the actual source, what we do then? ISPR is clearly not PAF Museum. Yes these don't claim to be the owner of the images which should be noted, but these images have been replicated to Wikipedia, it is essential to link to the actual source. The real sources of these images are still missing. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:15, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

@D4iNa4: you could start by politely asking Hitch where he got the images. But the history between you and hitch, as well as the fact that you ran straight here to tattle on him instead of asking him a simple question, makes me wonder if you simply have a vendetta against him. It may be best for you to just drop the matter entirely and avoid hitch in the future. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Autopatrolled

Greetings, noting here that there is one request here that hasn't been addressed for over eight days. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:49, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the nudge, and congratulations! All the best, Miniapolis 22:19, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Miniapolis, I don't know if you noticed this but User:Bharatiya29 was requesting the autopatrol right for User:Kanghuitari. I wasn't aware that one editor could request user rights for another editor but I'm new to PERM. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:45, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: From my casual, non-admin observations, it's just autopatrolled that other users can request. Kharkiv07 (T) 02:23, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Autopatrolled also mentions requesting for other users. Kharkiv07 (T) 02:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Kharkiv07, you are correct and I was mistaken. But now I know! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: yes, an editor can "nominate" another editor for Autopatrolled rights. I've done it at least once myself, and intend to nominate more when I get some time again so I can properly research candidates. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems unusual to request a right for another editor without at least requiring that editor's assent and stated desire to acquire that privilege. But if the user right guidelines permit it, that is the last word on it. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:55, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I guess the idea with autopatrolled is that it's not anything extra for the person getting the right; it wouldn't affect their editing at all unlike the addition of extra buttons that comes with other rights. Autopatrolled is primarily for helping other users. Sam Walton (talk) 16:05, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

As I understand it autopatrolled is the only right you can't request be removed, and the only one where it's morally okay to nominate others without their consent. It can be detrimental to others (the patrollers) for you not to have the flag. Of course you could then create some bogus articles and we'd have to remove it, but I like to think someone who has gained that trust wouldn't intentionally disrupt the project to remove something that doesn't have a direct effect on them in the first place. If they want a second set of eyes on their articles they can go through AfC — MusikAnimal ^talk 22:13, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

(←) I didn't know that autopatrolled—or any other user right—is irrevocable (if that's what you meant, MusikAnimal). The reason it can be requested by a third party is because it can lighten the load at NPP. Miniapolis 22:57, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Not irrevocable, but MusikAnimal's interpretation seems to be that it should only be revoked for cause and not on request. Not that I hang out at WP:PERM much, but I hadn't thought of it that way, and if someone asked for its removal I would've done it. In general I'd be inclined to say you get to decide what user rights you don't have; I don't think there's any significant population of anti-autopatrolled protesters to the point where you'd call it disruptive to NPP to reject the right. Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:24, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Apologies, I didn't mean to imply there's some strict guideline on removal of the right (not sure if that's even in writing). I wouldn't go as far as to call it disruptive to do so, but we should not knowingly allow a user to unnecessarily add to the backlog. Every little bit counts in a project that yields 750+ articles a day ([15]). The only scenario where I see removal of the right appropriate by request is if they choose to leave the project. They otherwise need a very good reason, as it makes no difference to them whatsoever. Autopatrolled is entirely in the interest of patrollers and not the user who holds the "right" – which is better worded as a "flag" than some sort of privilege. — MusikAnimal ^talk 03:36, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

True. I should butt out since I don't work on this stuff, but I just don't love the idea of a user group that works like reverse Groucho Marx club: we'll have you as a member whether you care to belong or not. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:31, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Possible abuse of admin tools by User:Nyttend

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Nyttend has been abusing admin tools. The trouble started at this thread. Heimdallr of Æsir (talk · contribs), a disruptive sock account, was reported for threats and edit-warring. Heimdallr of Æsir was then blocked for a week but immediately unblocked at Nyttend's request. Nyttend then protected the Turkey article and reverted it to a version only he found acceptable. He then threatened to block anyone who reverts him after the protection is over [16][17].

Nyttend repeatedly called users that felt the need to restore the original caption as "hoaxers" over and over again [18][19][20][21][22][23]. He then closed the discussion to that effect. But even his closure was immediately reverted by Future Perfect at Sunrise who saw that it was made on unacceptable grounds. Even after me and other users pointed out that the caption was backed by sources, he continued the name calling despite the fact that several users, including veterans users and admins, spoke out against the usage of such language. See comments by admins NeilN and Future Perfect at Sunrise and veteran users Dr.K. and Athenean. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:05, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I would say that Nyttend could have handled this better, but the only "abuse" of admin tools is editing the article to his preferred version after protecting it. Your main concern however, seem to be Nyttend's use of the term "hoaxers". It doesn't require admin tools to call people hoaxers. So what is it you want from this thread?--Atlan (talk) 08:30, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

The situation is very simple: several people have knowingly presented a map as being otherwise than it is. A hoax is an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real; in this case, the "something false" is the idea that the map represents Kurdish-majority areas, a statement clearly belied by the map's source. When you're willing to tag-team editwar a hoax into an article, and you're more concerned about personal attacks than presenting a truthful article, you're not here to build an encyclopedia. It's not surprising that you'd seek sanctions against the admin who sees through your sham and tries to enforce our policies against you. Nyttend (talk) 11:41, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

As Nyttend did not do the unblocking, that's irrelevant. Nyttend did unnecessarily mix editorial and admin functions: they should have either a) reverted and requested another admin WP:RFPP -- simply dropping the hint I can't protect it due to involved (e.g. I'm an admin) would likely gotten someone else to protect in short order. Or b) protected and posted an edit request on the talk page -- again another admin probably would have made the edit in short order. There is, of course, the "any reasonable admin" argument here, but a two admin solution is the Path of Least Drama. NE Ent 12:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend, are you saying Future Perfect at Sunrise is supporting hoaxing? [24] --NeilN ^{talk to me} 12:48, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

If necessary, we revert disruption that leads to protection. FPAS misses the point; numerous users are saying that this map represents Kurdish-majority areas. Perhaps it corresponds a bit with Kurdish-majority areas, but that's not relevant: editors have presented text sources saying "These areas are majority Kurdish" and presented the map saying "This is a map of Kurdish-majority areas", but unless the text sources specifically address the source map, they are irrelevant. Let's say you want to use a different map, e.g. one that highlights the provinces mentioned in the source, or let's say that you decide to exclude this map entirely; I'll have no comment and won't participate in making such a decision. Make such a change after protection expires, or ask any other admin to do it before then, and I won't intervene; ask me to do it before protection expires, and I'll happily do it without comment. The sole issue is presenting this map as what it's not. This is fundamentally the same as a situation I regularly encounter with US geography articles: US communities had their demographics from the 2000 census added by a bot in 2002, and since the 2010 census is more recent, I often see people putting 2010 data in front of the 2000 citation. Such a situation is hoaxing, because they're claiming that the source provides 2010 data when it doesn't. Omit it or use a 2010 source, and it's fine, just as it is to omit this map or use a different one. Nyttend (talk) 12:59, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

So in short, it is synthesis of multiple unrelated sources, correct?--Atlan (talk) 13:39, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

There's probably a hundred discussions happening right now on Wikipedia along the lines of "that's not what the source says". They're proceeding along without accusations of hoaxing, protection of articles, and threats of blocking. If you regularly tell editors who update stats correctly without updating the source that they're hoaxers then I'm surprised you haven't been hauled to ANI for this practice. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:41, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I've unprotected the page (well, put back the semi-protect editing and full-protect move situation). Protecting a page where you are in a content dispute and then editing through the protection to win the dispute is misuse of the admin tools. Claiming that it was "hoaxing", i.e. vandalism, is very nice, unless (like here) no hoaxing is involved, only a dispute about correctness which should be handled on the talk page of the article (which you haven't edited during the last few months at least). Fram (talk) 14:08, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much Fram. Admins like you, NeilN and FPaS, just to name those who commented and took action in this case, renew my faith in this project. Take care. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 14:18, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Wait wait wait. I don't agree with many of Nyttend's actions here or his insistence, but Fram, saying that Nyttend is in a content dispute in this article is silly, very silly. Nyttend reverted what he thought was a hoax--that's not "being in a content dispute". He made three edits to the article, ever; one cannot possibly believe he was in a content dispute, as if he had something Kurdish or Turkish at stake. Seriously--I feel for Dr. K and Athenean, and Nyttend's feet should be held to the fire, but accusing him of something he obviously didn't do is unproductive and, duh, unfair. Drmies (talk) 00:39, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

If it were remotely reasonable to think this was a hoax, that would be a legitimate point. But that's what's concerning about this. He shouldn't have even thought that this was a hoax per WP:AGF. But not only did he assume bad faith and decide that it was a hoax, but he has repeatedly defended the accusation based on some twisted reasoning that even if the caption was accurate, it misrepresented the given source, thus it constituted "hoaxing". This apparently doesn't make sense to anyone, but even if he were convinced that this was a malicious hoax, that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't, it was a content dispute that he inserted himself into while simultaneously executing an involved administrative action. And, while good faith mistakes happen, has refused to acknowledge any sort of overreaction, or wrongdoing, or misjudging. He appears to continue to stand behind all of his actions 100%, even in spite of ample feedback. Swarm ♠ 01:22, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, I think it is remotely, or somewhat nearbyly, reasonable to think this a hoax; I wouldn't have used that word even if I saw what he did. But you, Swarm, you have to assume that he reverted etc. in bad faith. I mean, if he thinks it's a hoax, it's not a content dispute; it's as simple as that. And I think Nyttend is from Ohio, and I hope he's not an OSU graduate because that would be even more problematic, but I believe in his good faith. He may well be wrong in his thinking (and his stubbornness), but we're talking about content, and I just don't think you can pin "content dispute" on him. Thus you also can't pin "involved" ("favorite version", etc) on him. Now, the longer he stands by it the sillier he looks, but come on, making a person eat crow is difficult no matter how much mayonnaise you put on it. Sure he's going to have to get off the hoaxy horse, but the more we raise the stakes ("involved") the harder we make it for him to get down. Drmies (talk) 02:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

No. Not remotely, not nearbyly, no it cannot be considered a hoax. Please see what Future Perfect at Sunrise said to Nyttend originally: "Wait a moment. Sorry Nyttend, I've undone your closure here. First, please don't keep using the term "hoaxing", that's not what we're dealing with here. The person who first added the map, Athenean, [25] had just previously also added a sourced textual description [26] that said that "Kurds make up a majority in the provinces of Dersim, Bingol, Mus, Agri, Igdir, Elazig, Diyarbakir, Batman, Sirnak, Bitlis, Van, Mardin, Siirt and Hakkari, a near majority in Sanliurfa province (47%), and a large minority in Kars province (20%)." I haven't seen anybody challenging the correctness of the sourcing for this sentence. I assume that Athenean believed in good faith that the textual description enumerating those provinces matched the area described in the map, in which case his use of the map with the "majority" caption would have been legitimate. If he was mistaken in this assumption, overlooking that there might have been some factual differences between the two areas, that would make it a case of inadvertent source misuse, but not "hoaxing", which by definition would have to be deliberate. Certainly this should have been hacked out on the talkpage." If an admin has to accuse veteran, good-faith editors of such a terrible thing as perpetrating a hoax he should investigate thoroughly the facts the way FPaS did. If he did the due diligence exemplified by FPaS's response details the conclusion would have been not possible to be a hoax. But Nyttend chose the witchhunting route. That's irresponsible of an admin. Coupled with his brutal attacks and block-for-edit-if-you-dare taunts on my talkpage his behaviour in this incident is inexcusable. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying he's right, Dr.K., or that he acted properly in regards to you and Athenean... Drmies (talk) 15:34, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Drmies, I know you too well and you made yourself abundantly clear in your previous statements for me to think otherwise and I have read your clear statements in that regard as well as your closing statement at ANI for which I sent you thanks. I just wanted to address the asymptotic limits of the hoax argument. Also my examples were not meant in any way toward you. I just added them to show what I think is the larger picture of this admin's behaviour toward myself and the other editors. My respect for you as an admin and editor would preclude any misunderstanding on my part. Take care. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 15:56, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate that and I hope you know that one disagreement on one part of the event doesn't mean I condone what happened. I also hope Nyttend will respond. Take care, Drmies (talk) 17:03, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Doc. But there is no need for the clarification. I knew that from the beginning. All the best to you too. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:12, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I mean let's get real here. He comes to my talkpage calling my replies to his attacks "agitation" and concluding Further agitation will be ignored.. Who talks like that to a fellow-editor? What is this place supposed to be? A prison? And who does he think he is? A prison warden talking down an insurrection? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 03:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Then we have the other gem: The edit-you-get-blocked dare: Baiting me with an edit-for-block combo: If you wish, I can unprotect the page to enable you to restore the hoax to the article, but such will result in an immediate reversion and block. Is this where things have come to in communication between editors? It is clear from these examples, and unfortunately there are many more, that this is not an isolated example of bad behaviour but a multifaceted and determined attack on myself and the other editors whose menace shows no signs of abating. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 03:18, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, labeling an edit a "hoax" is much like labeling an edit "vandalism" or "sockpuppetry"...it's an inherent assumption of bad faith and should not be done unless it's justified by evidence. I quite simply don't see how you can look at an edit that was performed by a long-term, highly established editor in good standing, and label it a bad faith action (I.e. a hoax). You should just not do that, per AGF. It really is that simple. Making a bad assumption of bad faith does not exempt one from the expected standards of conduct...even if done so sincerely and with good intentions. It really doesn't matter if he genuinely thought he was justified, because he was wrong, and should have realized it. His actions were inappropriate, and while he needn't be punished for this incident, I'm not going to make excuses for him. He could have at least given a modicum of consideration to the people who were questioning his actions, and in refusing to do so isn't living up to our standards of conduct. Not trying to unduly tear the guy apart, just saying. Swarm ♠ 06:48, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) with Fram The map is not the source. The map is just a convenient illustration which contains all the provinces that have majority Kurdish populations. The fact that there are majority Kurdish populations is supported by a separate reliable source which names these provinces. But Nyttend instead of AGFing or simply stating his opposition he goes ballistic, misusing protection edit-summaries to advertise that good-faith editors are hoaxers and performs ANI closes accusing an editor that he is a hoaxer. Thankfully he was reverted by admin Future Perfect at Sunrise who also explained to him his unjustified use of the word "Hoax" to attack established editors. After I politely asked him on his talkpage that in view of FPaS's explanation if he could change the protection log edit-summary to remove the word hoax, he came to my talkpage to accuse me of "tricking the reader" and block-bait me by telling me "if I wished" he would unprotect the article but he would revert and block me if I changed the caption. He also called my good-faith responses to him "agitation" and said that he would not respond to it further. All in all this administrator has been abusive to several veteran editors including myself. He also abused the edit-summary field of the protection log to attack good-faith veteran editors. Further, at the time of my reversion, I reverted the sockfarmer because he was an obvious sock of Lord of Rivendell whose SPI I had created. Per Wikipedia policy all such reverts are justified. It turned out the sockfarmer was an even older sock since 2007 with almost 100 socks. I had not seen the exact details of the map at the time. But I trusted the editorial discretion of my fellow editors. In summary I think Nyttend is out of order in this case and he should cease attacking longstanding veteran editors this way. He also abused his admin capacities by reverting to his favourite version and using protection edit-summaries attacking other editors where they cannot respond to his attacks. That simply is not fair and it is also an abuse of admin tools. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 14:12, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend should instead encourage editors at the talk page of the article to either find a better source or replace the map. His rationale for keeping the current caption was never even explained. This whole source discrepancy issue was raised by him for the first time just a few minutes ago. Neither have I ever heard him provide a different avenue to solve the caption issue. Its been either "you revert me, you get blocked." The discussion at User_talk:Dr.K.#Turkey highlights his approach towards this entire issue up until this very moment. Nyttend did not once provide any user an avenue to express his concerns over the current caption. Instead, he pushed his agenda with the same refrains:

"If you wish, I can unprotect the page to enable you to restore the hoax to the article, but such will result in an immediate reversion and block."

"Further agitation will be ignored."

"You added a demonstrably false claim, i.e. a hoax."

At this point, it isn't about the caption. That's a secondary issue. This is about an admin using and abusing admin tools to force his "opponents" to have it his way. His approach has been to dismiss each and every user, threaten to block them, overtly ignore their concerns, and force users to accept that they're somehow hoaxes. Meanwhile, he has not given any user an avenue to provide an explanation as to why this map and its corresponding caption should be there. Why, for one, is such a discussion happening at WP:AN, WP:ANI, or even User_talk:Dr.K.#Turkey? All his comments about the map and the source for it can be easily handled through discussion at the talk page, as it is done in a common fashion throughout Wikipedia. But taking this approach has caused more problems than solutions. Étienne Dolet (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

• PS: Thankfully Fram made a note in the unprotection edit-summary that cleared the hoax allegation, so s/he repaired the damage caused by Nyttend. I am grateful to him/her for that. I seek no further action against Nyttend, unless this becomes a pattern. But I will AGF that it will not. Despite the problems he created he is still a veteran editor with many articles under his belt and I respect that. Thank you all who commented in this thread for helping sort this mess out. All of you take care and let's go back to writing some articles. :) Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 14:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
• Unfortunately Nyttend does not seem to get the idea. He went to my thread of a thank you note at Fram's talkpage to repeat the same attacks and to chastise him/her for correcting his attack at the protection log of Turkey which also doubles as abuse of his admin tools. His edit summary was Your actions will long be remembered. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 20:30, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
• Everything about Nyttend's actions is actually fine IMO apart from the accusation of hoaxing, which is a bit intemperate. It may be POV, but it's not hoaxing as such. This is an occasion for saying "oops, my bad" and everyone getting on with something more productive. Guy (Help!) 23:22, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

• Disagree entirely. I find Nyttend's behavior to be unacceptable and bizarre. Just because a caption does not perfectly match up to a source does not mean there's a willful attempt at deception going on, and per this little thing called WP:AGF, such assumptions should generally not be made. I know, AGF is a difficult concept, especially for an admin. The map and caption were added by an established editor in good standing.[27] This same user later raised the issue on the talk page, in a reasonable, good faith effort to provide the most accurate information in the article. He gives a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why the caption was not demonstrably false as Nyttend says, and suggests that it's a little more complicated than that and that a new map might be better. Nyttend has not responded there. Nyttend's labeling of this as hoaxing is not only a flagrant violation of AGF, but an unfounded personal attack. His repeated attempts to defend the accusation are nothing short of shocking. Now, that aside, he quite clearly and blatantly committed an act of administrative abuse by full protecting an article and then reverting to his preferred wording with the bad "hoaxing" rationale. Even if this was a good faith attempt at providing accurate content, it was absolutely unacceptable to take involve himself in an edit war after full protecting the article against said edit war. WP:INVOLVED can be dicey sometimes, sure, but this is not a gray area. This is basic stuff. If you're in an edit war, you sure as hell don't action that edit war as an administrator. And if you full protect an article due to an edit war, you sure as hell don't involve yourself afterwards while no one else can edit! He clearly involved himself and thus could not be considered an uninvolved administrator who could fairly mediate the edit war, and yet when an admin correctly unprotected the article, he left a rude, borderline harassing message on their talk page with what could be interpreted as a threatening edit summary.[28] I have never had anything but a good impression of this user and I am frankly blown away by what I'm seeing here. In this very thread, he holds true to the accusation of hoaxing, when he's dealing with veteran editors in good standing and gives no indication that he understands why he might not be anything other than 100% in the right. I think he should stop being overly-defensive reconsider his hardline stance, drop the bad faith accusations, and refrain from using the tools while involved, and we'll all be better for it. I hope he does so because he's certainly better than this. And, while I'm absolutely not suggesting that a case is needed over this, if an administrator fails to acknowledge complaints about their conduct in a community forum, it's a matter for ArbCom. Swarm ♠ 00:18, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

At this point, I would sincerely like to know how is it going to be possible to work with an admin who is upholding such grudges and bad faith assumptions against fellow users. Ideally, I would love to have good faith restored. But Nyttend is not dropping the stick. The Sword of Damocles still hangs at Turkey. The block bait technically still stands there. His bad faith assumptions were never retracted and has only continued. But more importantly, who's to say his actions here wouldn't be similarly applied elsewhere? Does this not merit further measures to prevent such problems from recurring in the future? Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:44, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Editing through protection you (Nyttend in this case) have placed to install your preferred version automatically makes you involved in the content dispute. Unless its to remove an obvious BLP or other policy-violating material. Once protected, the page stays still until discussion about content has been resolved on the talk page (or the protection is removed due to the disruption stopping). This is a basic tenet of how protection is meant to be used. The 'hoax' rubbish is just bad faith accusations to justify a side in the dispute. This is not the sole instance recently of admins making misunderstandings of what constitutes involvement in a content dispute. Perhaps someone should write a manual.... Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:58, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend, are you willing to agree that there is no "presenting a truthful article" exception to WP:INVOLVED and make a commitment to not do it again? I would remind you that, as with all cases where an administrator is involved in a content dispute, a request posted at WP:AN asking for an uninvolved administrator to look into the situation and take whatever action is required almost usually results in action within minutes. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Good suggestion. There is clear abuse of admin tools here: Reverting after protecting the page. Block-baiting established editors is also unacceptable. I have seen admins desysoped for less. Perhaps refer the matter to Arbcom if there is no resolution here? I also note I have posted at length at Talk:Turkey regarding the content issue. I note with disappointment that Nyttend has so far not participated. Athenean (talk) 20:49, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

What resolution are you after? Arbcom would be either for an egregious act of behavior or an established pattern of abuse. I don't see anything that warrants desysopping. He was not involved in a content dispute and I believe that he reverted based on what he honestly believed. That others might disagree with him did not suddenly involve him in a content dispute. He responded initially at this ANI thread and then later this one, He made two edits to the protection status of an article and one edit to clear up something that he thought was wrong. Fram's characterization that he was involved and trying to win a content dispute is wrong ("Misuse of protection to win an edit war") entered in the protection log. Nyttend wasn't participating in an edit war. His role as an admin was not compromised by those actions. I do believe that there is room for improvement in the discourse with other editors and that things should have been handled a bit differently but the debated edit was reverted. What else is there to do here? The regrettable part that might be viewed as abuse comes from the discussion threads thereafter. I do think that he should consider apologizing to Dr. K.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:15, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

It appears that Nyttend's answer to the above question is "no".[29] There seem to be three alternatives at this point; ignore a clear misuse of the tools by an admin who has stated that he indends to do it again, a brave and uninvolved admin giving Nyttend a short block to make it clear that the community takes WP:INVOLVED seriously, or a trip to arbcom with the probable result being the same as when Kww refused to back down after making an involved action. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:53, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

He wasn't involved and I don't see why editors keep trying to label him as being involved. Before he protected the article, he didn't have a dog in that fight did he? What am I missing?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:22, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

What Berean Hunter appears to be missing is the expectation of WP:PREFER: "When protecting a page because of a content dispute, administrators normally protect the current version, except where the current version contains content that clearly violates content policies, such as vandalism, copyright violations, or defamation of living persons. " (emphasis mine). By selecting other than the version at time of protection, Nyttend mixed administrative and editorial functions, hence the perception of involvement. NE Ent 13:22, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Can we put the stick down now? See WP:Editors have pride; it's applicable although written from a slightly different context. The action has been reversed and a bunch of folks have provided explanation as to why the consensus here is it was an involved action. It is not necessary to harangue a mea culpa out of Nyttend, it is simply necessary they don't do it again. This might take some time for reflection on their part, and that is difficult to do when you feel like there's a "witch hunt" against you. NE Ent 22:12, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

This edit does not appear to be made by an uninvolved admin. Especially when his position concerning article content was reaffirmed right after that revert. Meanwhile, hurling accusations of hoaxing and claiming that certain users should "Not to be trusted whatsoever" is very serious. This did not occur towards just one user, but many. Which leads me to believe that it's a precarious pattern we are dealing with here. I wouldn't push it so far as to seek an alternate forum to solve this issue if it weren't for the overt refusal to get the point. It's Nyttend who should drop the stick. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:13, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Frankly not responding to this thread is not a refusal to drop the stick. Bringing up the same examples over and over again is. Either submit a proposal for community input regarding Nyttend's actions or bring the case to a higher authority. The constant back and forth here is going nowhere. --Stabila711 (talk) 01:31, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Etienne: I had not seen the diff you added. It is worse than you describe. Nyttend has escalated this further. He is leveling WP:NOTHERE against the editors he disagrees with: more concerned about personal attacks than presenting a truthful article, you're not here to build an encyclopedia. Assuming such a level of bad faith against reputable, longterm, veteran editors is a clear sign that he is not fit to be an administrator. Also his punchline It's not surprising that you'd seek sanctions against the admin who sees through your sham and tries to enforce our policies against you. disingenuously concentrates and attacks his target editors while blithely ignoring the wide criticism he has received from his fellow admins. He obviously sees himself as a man on a mission for WP:TRUTH while his opponents are NOTHERE. He also implies he can only see through the "sham" while his fellow admins are dupes. This is a dangerous state to be in when you have the tools. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend isn't belaboring the point. How can you suggest that he is involved? He didn't reaffirm a content position...he was explaining his admin actions. Those are two entirely different things. Show me the diffs where he had been involved in this previously. Show me where he takes a position in editing in this article. He responded to your request for an admin. How dare you suggest that he was involved and let that stand as if it were so? Patently false...and you should know better. Anyone who thinks he was involved cough up some diffs from before that request was made. Show us that he was involved in a content dispute. Don't show me the one edit to the caption after the protection..that isn't it. If you think that is involved then you don't know what that means.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:38, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Here's my diff. Who is that calling Nyttend to come to the talk page?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:51, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

So reverting to a version he preferred after he edit-protected the page is not a misuse of admin tools? And then threatening to block anyone who reverts him while hurling accusations of bad faith because he does not understand the complexity of the issue? I have seen an admin resign because he was about to be desysopped for exactly this kind of behavior (ChrisO, if anyone remembers) Athenean (talk) 02:02, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

He wasn't reverting to a version "he preferred". No abuse of tools here. The bullshit mis-characterizations are going to earn someone a boomerang soon. Bad faith some of you have, you've earned that characterization well. I'm not defending all of his actions and words here but if you guys are willing to misrepresent things and let it stand then I can see why he wouldn't be too quick to apologize. Invite him to the party and then throw him under the bus? Nice.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:16, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Berean, you're mixing two separate situations here. That comment was in reference to continuous insults by an SP IP account of a user already blocked for similar insults. I said "see the TP" because that user was socking and continuing to personally attack users there. I never said he should participate in a discussion at the TP. As for the current situation, Nyttend's concerns regarding the map can easily be made at the talk page of the article. His concerns over the map is reminiscent of any other content dispute in Wikipedia. "That's not what the source says"-like discussions are very common when it comes to content disputes in Wikipedia. Threatening to block anyone that disagrees is also a way of pushing his position without referring to simple talk page discussions. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying that you believed that he was involved and then you requested his assistance there?...or were you calling what you thought was an impartial admin?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:26, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Berean, I asked for Nyttend's attention because he himself had already blocked the very user I raised concerns about at ANI. And again, I told him to see the TP because the user he had blocked was socking and continuing his personal attacks. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:36, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There is absolutely no ambiguity in "If you wish, I can unprotect the page to enable you to restore the hoax to the article, but such will result in an immediate reversion and block." Whatever he did before or after this statement makes no difference, although even that seems far and away from best practices, threatening, baiting, in this way is far beyond the pale. It took me less than 30 seconds to see Dr.K. has been editing heavily here for nine years has over 80,000 edits and one block, of slightly over five hours duration seven years ago. This is not the profile of a hoaxer. An admin is supposed to exhibit good judgement and de-escalate situations not double down when questioned or when they make an error. And never, ever, I repeat ever threaten a long term, good faith editor, in the way quoted.

I genuinely do not understand why this is still open. We do not tolerate users going around accusing editors of vandalism repeatedly when they have been told it was not vandalism — they get blocked. We should not tolerate an admin doubling down on accusations of experienced editors supporting hoaxes when they have received amble community feedback that they are in error, or threatening editors when they are questioned. Block him for 20 minutes to get his attention or press on to ArbCom if no one is willing to do even a symbolic block to indicate that this behavior is not acceptable. Jbh^Talk 02:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much Jbhunley for your kind words. Ironically my single block was for reverting a hoax Greek name "Ιάσπερος". "Ιάσπερος" does not exist, it is a hoax. But the blocking admin did not speak Greek and apparently could not Google either so I got blocked for edit-warring. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 03:05, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

The bullshit mis-characterizations are going to earn someone a boomerang soon. Bad faith some of you have, you've earned that characterization well. Berean, this opinion is shared by many editors in this thread, including admins. Fram unprotected Turkey on that basis. Are you saying they are going to be boomeranged as well and that they have bad faith? Or are you reserving the honour just for Nyttend's targets? By the way, thank you for your decent comment about Nyttend apologising to me. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:41, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I've already stated that I think Fram had it all wrong to promote the idea that Nyttend was involved in an edit war. No one who has researched this properly can make that conclusion. If they hold onto it then they need to produce diffs to back it up. My defense of Nyttend here is strictly about people accusing him of being involved as a reason to try to get him desysopped. He didn't use his tools inappropriately. He wasn't a participant in an edit war that suddenly decided to whip out the tools and use them. Anyone that calls him involved hasn't done their due diligence and they will need to justify that. I'm not defending the discussions thereafter and I do think that he was heavy-handed in the conversations. If it were me, I would apologize to some folks about that including you. I'm trying to separate the wheat from the chaff here...let's dispense with the involved accusation and get to the crux of the matter. It is about what he said and not an abuse of the tools. I see some folks as trying to skew the evidence because they want a certain outcome. I feel apologies are in order.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Berean. I think Nyttend has abused the tools by using the protection log to accuse good-faith editors of hoax creation. He has also said that he sees similar actions in US articles when editors use maps for highways with newer stats. Therefore he has already made up his mind regarding using newer sources with older maps. That's an editorial position of his which he tried to impose on Turkey while at the same time using his tools and protection log edit-summaries to attack his opponents. That, imo, makes him involved. But even if we assume that his edit was not involved, his abuse of the edit-summary field to accuse multiple longstanding editors of hoax creation is abuse of admin tools. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 03:21, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Honestly you could toss out the involved accusations all together and this is still really bad behavior from an admin. Put aside even the editing through protection and unblocking a sock. What the hell is with the horrible lack of AGF and strong arm tactics? Hoax? Really? With the editors involved and the talk page activity about the map and source in question? It would have been resolved shortly. None of the involved editors are hoaxers. The fact that Nyttend just wouldn't drop that stick is bizarre. That edit summary to Fram is just bizarre too. Dr. K was ready to extend AGF but Nyttend keeps doubling down. Why? From what I've seen Nyttend seems to be an all-around good admin. Don't go down the Kww obstinance road. Everyone has bad days. Days where the BS you put up with all day just boils over and you just say enough and take a stand. This ain't the ground to make that stand on. Nobody involved was damaging this place, intentionally or not. All that said, everyone take a deep breath, get some sleep, whatever. ArbCom is not needed here. There's no pattern of abuse as far as I know anyway. I think everyone here is big enough to not demand some grudging public apology from someone who feels put upon. Chalk it up to a bad day. We all have them. If this behavior crops up again then a case is warranted. For now? Let it drop. Nobody is doing anyone good here. Capeo (talk) 04:27, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi Capeo. In an ideal world I'd be totally in favor of dropping the case. I'd even consider dropping it now. However, my concern is whether I will, in the future, be able to work with an admin who upholds a variety of bad faith remarks against me and various other users. From what I see, there's a serious concern of a lack of AGF on Nyttend's part. And it ain't going nowhere. How else are we to restore AGF among fellow users and admins? I'd argue that it would be quite difficult to do that by dropping the case now under an environment like this. But don't get me wrong, my AGF towards Nyttend will always stand. However, it takes two to tango. And if that's not going to happen, then what else can be done? Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:15, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I knew I had seen an issue with Nyttend editing through his own full protection to restore a preferred version before this. It is in this discussion [30] and it is a large portion of the discussion involving long term experienced editors. I can not locate the diff of the complaint but the text is "...and made improper use of editing through full protection. I am disappointed that Nyttend has not commented here, nor acknowledged that some of us have raised these concerns." and the edit time is 10:28 am, 6 February 2015 on ANI. The diff given showing editing through full protection is [31]. As near as I can tell from a brief scan of that thread he did not comment or address community concerns there either. I have not looked for any other similar instances but the concern has been raised before and he did not take on board community concern for that practice. Jbh^Talk 06:14, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• The link of your quote is here. The full quote of the sentence is: As I said above, those administrative actions reflected significant misunderstanding of policies, including NPOV and BLP, as well as misunderstanding the scope of the RfC discussion, and made improper use of editing through full protection. I am disappointed that Nyttend has not commented here, nor acknowledged that some of us have raised these concerns. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 06:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Call for close

There appear to be four possible courses of action at this point:

[A] Ignore this situation, let the discussion die out, and let the archive bot clear it away.

[B] Find that there was no misuse of tools.

[C] Give Nyttend a short block to make it clear that the community takes WP:INVOLVED seriously.

[D] A trip to arbcom.

There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus for [B] or [C], nor is further discussion likely to produce a consensus for either.

That leaves [A] and [D], both of which are best served by closing this discussion.

Therefor, I move to close this discussion with a finding on no consensus for any administrative action. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:09, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• C D I wish it was C. There was a similar instance of editing through his own full protection back in Feb. that I just mentioned above. he did not participate in that discussion either and that makes me very concerned he is unwilling to accept community feedback. That is, in my opinion, a big problem and it should not just be swept ignored. Jbh^Talk 06:19, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• We all have to abide by the consensus of the community, no matter what our personal positions are, and a quick scan of the discussion above shows that there is a fair amount of support but no consensus for C. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:27, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• Then D it must be. The threats and unwillingness to admit error, to the point of continuing the accusations, makes dropping the matter a non-starter. I probably would not !vote ArbCom if he had just dropped the matter without acknowledgement, I would not respect that move as admin's are supposed to be better than that to maintain community trust but I would not say it needs ArbCom. That he has been called out earlier for similar behavior (Inappropriately editing through protection) is an issue for me as well. Jbh^Talk 13:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I'd favor D since there's a lingering lack of good faith that's very unpleasant. I find that Arbcom is the only avenue to overcome that problem since it would promote further discussion and inquiry. C would be an alternate option to that. But a block would teach nothing and would might be inflammatory. The goal here is to move on. But first, let us do it in a comprehensive and thorough manner so that these issues will never resurface again. Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:37, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't see abuse of admin tools on Nyttend's part. I do see poor communication and lack of understanding of the participants' positions, mainly because of the tenacity of clinging to the term "hoax", but I don't see a problem in his edit/protection as such. When protecting a page, admins have an amount of discretion in choosing a "status quo ante" of an edit war, and if an admin believes that one version has been conclusively shown to contain an obviously disruptive source distortion, I believe it is fully in their discretion to choose that version. Nyttend may have been objectively mistaken about the severity of that perceived source distortion, and he was most definitely wrong about his charge of deliberate distortion, but I don't see any harm in implementing the edit he did (more so because the version he chose wasn't in fact detrimental to the other editors' position; there can be no doubt that the wording chosen is actually one correct way of representing the source.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:03, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

That still does not address his abuse of the protection edit-summary ("Hoaxing by multiple people" and "Rv hoaxing") to attack good-faith editors. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

...Or edit-summaries such as "Not to be trusted whatsoever" towards fellow users. I mean it's one thing if a disruptive editor like Heimdallr of Æsir says that about me, but it's entirely different when an admin of over nine years of experience says it, especially without a tinge of remorse afterwards. Indeed, any average user would have the good faith in believing that an admin so experienced and reputable would be right in saying that. And that's why I'm personally quite uneasy about that remark. And I'm sure others, who have been hit with similar comments, are too. Such remarks of bad faith must be curtailed, especially when it comes from admins because their comments are generally more influential within the project. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:37, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

'How about E?: being that Nyttend just says, "Hey, I fucked up a little bit. Sorry." It never ceases to amaze me around this place in how so many simple disputes could be averted with a little humility. Capeo (talk) 07:25, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Capeo but I think that someone who attacks a fellow-editor as a hoaxer, block-baits him and calls the replies of his target editor "agitation" and tells him that "further agitation will be ignored" is and has been on a power-trip so high that there is no possibility that he will land back to reality without being desysoped. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:33, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Without agreeing or disagreeing with the above comment, I will note that I asked Nyttend[32] to agree that there is no "presenting a truthful article"[33] exception to WP:INVOLVED and make a commitment to not do it again. His response was "no"[34] and thus E is not an option for us. I wish it was. I would also note that Kww was offered the same choice by arbcom, and if he had simply agreed with the overwhelming consensus of the community concerning what is and is not an exception to WP:INVOLVED he would still be an administrator today. I hate losing admins this way when the desysoping is entirely avoidable by simply agreeing to follow the consensus of the community. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:24, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• i obviously agree that there is an entirely legitimate complaint against Nyttend's actions here, but I think he has received ample feedback regarding this incident, and even if he's unwilling to admit that he was wrong, I assume he will consider it and remember it in the future in order to avoid a similar problem from happening. I also entirely trust that he will not hold onto a grudge against any of the editors he has come into conflict with, even if he's given such an impression. If this discussion was somewhat successful, we will all move on to continue working on the project and Nyttend will not repeat this mistake. That's the real goal here and what I think the likely outcome will be. If this discussion is really unsuccessful and Nyttend refuses to listen to any of the editors here, and exhibits more problematic behavior (which, again, I do not anticipate in the least), then obviously AN is an ineffective forum for dealing with it and it should go directly to ArbCom. Either way, I agree that this discussion should be closed as it's clearly achieved the most it's going to, which is outside input and feedback. There's no consensus that it needs to escalate further at this time. Swarm ♠ 07:40, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• I would be the last editor to disagree with you Swarm as I respect you, your opinions and vision for this project. But although I will not oppose in any way your opinion out of respect, I admit that given his behaviour so far, including his edit-summary to Fram Your actions will long be remembered, it is very difficult for me to believe that Nyttend is the type that will either learn or forget any time soon. In any case, your rationale for closing this debate is correct. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:49, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I understand entirely why you feel that way and I don't think you're being unfair, as that comment essentially constitutes a threat on it's face. But I'm willing to assume that it was a defensive overreaction as opposed to a genuine threat of lasting bad faith towards Fram. People can get very worked up and defensive when overruled or questioned, even if they know they were wrong. It's a natural human response that I myself can be guilty of. I think and hope we can let that one go, and if I'm wrong, well, WP:ROPE is a very real thing. Swarm ♠ 07:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Swarm. I will take your opinion strongly under consideration. You have almost persuaded me that you are right in every respect. Take care. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 08:05, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) @Swarm and Future Perfect at Sunrise: (Or any other admin) I respect your opinions here quite a bit. I linked an ANI thread I from Feb where it looks to me that similar improper use of tools to protect/create a favored version of an article happened. In this case it also involved closing an RfC, editing the article beyond the scope of the RfC and against established consensus to agree with his view, protecting the article when challenged and then editing through that protection to return it to 'his' version. The thread closed with no consensus and no input from Nyttend. I will not put you on the spot by asking whether he was right or wrong there, what I would like to know is if, in your experience, I am way off base to consider these two events similar enough to consider this incident is the equivalent of "more problematic behavior... [that] should go directly to ArbCom." Swarm mentions above, just in relation to the Feb case.

  I guess the TL;DR is the earlier case was kicked down the road, is this similar enough to be a 'here we are again' event? I would like an admin's perspective on this because you are the people with the actual day to day experience and I just see some fraction of the 'mistakes'. Jbh^Talk 13:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

This is the thread I am referring to ANI Archive 269 - Edit exceeding the scope of the RfC. The editing through full protection is brought up first at 5:42 pm, 4 February 2015 and continues from there. Jbh^Talk 13:41, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Call for patience

There is no temporal crisis here and no deadline for resolving an AN thread. The goals here are: making Turkey the best possible article for readers; ensuring editors are comfortable making good faith edits without inappropriate sanctions activities from those with administrator bits; ensuring that as Nyttend proceeds forward he continues his good administrator work with full appreciation of nuances of involvement, page protection policies and admin accountability et. al. At this point would benefit the discussion is more editors reviewing the situation and offering non-accusatory, policy based viewpoints. NE Ent 13:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend maintains he did nothing wrong. There is no other support for this position but there is some support that he did not misuse his admin tools. If a similar situation happens again go to Arbcom and let them sort it out. My two cents. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:46, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

NE Ent, I don't think there's a better forum to handle those issues other than Arbcom. Étienne Dolet (talk) 15:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• Nyttend stepped out of line here and compounded it with petulance. It's bad enough that he doesn't seem to understand what hoax means, and that he used it in bad faith against long-term contributors in good standing, but the fact that he is not acknowledging that and refuses to reassure the community that it won't happen again is a problem. Editing through a page protect is a problem. Making veiled threats of retribution is a problem. Failing to follow WP:ADMINACCT is a problem.

I'm not sure if this rises to a level of WP:ADMINCOND worthy of an Arbcom case, but at minimum, I would expect a clear, public acknowledgement from Nyttend that he understands what he did wrong and will strive not to repeat similar breaches. I would also note that this is not the first time that Nyttend has used his admin privileges contrary to community norms. A couple of years ago, he unblocked a homophobic IP troll and justified it by misrepresenting the reason for the block. He utterly refused to consider that his unblock was improper in spite of substantial opposition to his action. - MrX 16:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I asked Nyttend[35] to agree that there is no "presenting a truthful article"[36] exception to WP:INVOLVED and make a commitment to not do it again. His response was "no".[37]

I will ask again, in the hopes that the additional input from the community or additional time to reflect has changed his mind:

Nyttend, are you willing to agree that there is no "presenting a truthful article"[38] exception to WP:INVOLVED and make a commitment to not do it again?

If I see anything resembling agreement, I will support closing this as being resolved with no action required. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:35, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Guy but I doubt this will happen for the reasons I enunciated above. In fact, however regrettable Nyttend's actions were at the beginning of this incident, his most recent reply, the one you linked above, contains two more escalations: WP:NOTHERE directed to one of his target editors and WP:TRUTH. This looks to me like escalation, which is the opposite of any type of acknowledgement or agreement. In fact TRUTH is almost never used by experienced editors as WP:V is the central criterion. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Of course there's no such exemption, and so I won't ignore WP:INVOLVED because something is The Truth. "Presenting a truthful article" here means "presenting an article that truly reflects its sources", not some potentially unverifiable truth (as anyone can see if my comments aren't taken out of context); the caption probably reflects reality on the ground, but I don't know, because I'm thoroughly unfamiliar with the topic. It's verifiable that this map's source image is labelled "Kurdish-inhabited areas", and it's verifiable that such-and-such areas have Kurdish-majority populations, but without additional sources commenting on the map itself, it's not verifiable that the map's boundaries are identical to those of Kurdish-majority populations — it's original research. That's why I said somewhere (I wish I could remember where, but I don't) that if someone wanted to delete this map and replace it with one based directly on the provided textual sources, I would do it as soon as I had the chance (at the time, the page was still protected), regardless of what the sources said; I'm not a partisan or someone attempting to ignore sources, just someone who's demanding that sources be represented accurately. Meanwhile, as I have not previously been involved in Kurdish matters, Turkish matters, or matters with these editors, this was not a WP:INVOLVED situation. I simply responded to a ordinary ANI request, observed that the situation was otherwise than described by the requester, and took actions identical to what I would have taken had it been on any other unknown-to-me topic or any other group of editors with whom I've not previously interacted. Nyttend (talk) 21:13, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend, how do you know that there are no additional sources regarding the map itself? How do you know I wouldn't provide one if you so requested? If you demanded them from me from the beginning, you would've gotten it. But you didn't give me and other users an oportunity to do that for you. Instead, you resorted to a "revert me and get blocked" approach while hurling bad faith accusations of hoaxing. Just look at the talk page of Turkey for once. We're discussing not only province by province verification, but we are also uncovering sources that state that the very CIA map depicts the Kurdish majority in that region. Also, my request at ANI doesn't relate my opinions in relation to the map at all. It was to stop uncessant edit-warring and personal attacks. All talk of the map should've been dealt with at the TP which is happening as we speak. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:31, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend, do you still believe that there was Hoaxing by multiple people? This is my first question. I will submit a few more after you reply to this one first. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:28, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend, unlike Dr.K., I am not going to comment on the content dispute regarding the map. I haven't bothered to look into it, but for the sake of argument let's assume that everything you say about the map is true, and your opponents are completely in the wrong. Given those assumptions, when you first saw what we are assuming was a hoax, you had a choice to take one of two policy-compliant paths. You could have entered into the content dispute as an ordinary editor, made your case, and followed Wikipedia's dispute resolution process just like any other editor would have to do. Alternatively, you could have entered into the situation as an administrator, giving warnings about user behavior that violates specific policies or guidelines. protecting the article, or imposing blocks for user behavior. As an administrator, you could also have impartially ruled on what the consensus is (whether you agreed with it or not) and implemented that consensus. You could have even reverted the article to a stable version if there is one. What you couldn't do is mix the two, taking sides in the content dispute (remember, we are assuming for the sake of argument that you were 100% right concerning content), editing the article and posting talk page comments supporting your side, while at the same time using your administrator powers on the same article. You need to pick one. You can be an editor, fighting for what you believe the content should be using the same tools available to any ordinary editor, or you can be an administrator, dealing with user behavior and not article content.

You say "I'm not a partisan or someone attempting to ignore sources, just someone who's demanding that sources be represented accurately", but those on the other side of the content dispute concerning maps -- some of them veteran editors -- say the same thing. That's why we have RfCs and other forms of dispute resolution -- to determine which side in a content dispute is following the sources and which side is not. When we elected you as an administrator we did not give you a supervote on content disputes about maps even if you are right.

If you continue on this path, there is a very good chance that you are going to be brought before arbcom. If that happens, I am reasonably sure that they will give you the same offer they gave Kww -- admit your error and commit to not doing it again -- and if you continue to dig in your heels they are likely to desysop you so that you don't have a choice about whether to use your admin tools. I implore you, please look over this entire thread and see how many people are telling you that you are in the wrong. Go ahead and say that you think they are all wrong but will follow the consensus, but please stop indicating that you will do it again in a similar situation. Nobody here wants to lose you over this. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:21, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Since you insist, I note that I will not do the same thing again in a similar situation. I already said this a few days ago, but on a user talk page, not a project page; it's not like you would have seen it. Quick note, there was no relevant consensus; no discussion happened, just an ANI post. The whole problem is that it was a content dispute in which the perhaps-in-the-right side was misusing sources. I invite anyone to explain, for example, how this kind of statement would be accepted in an FA review, where they check sources carefully and don't permit you to attribute a likely-to-be-true statement to a source that doesn't say so. Nyttend (talk) 23:45, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

[Edit conflict] Again ignoring the details of the content dispute, I accept the above and strongly recommend on the basis of the above that this be closed with no action required, and I strongly advise against anyone here going to arbcom with this. If anyone does, I will comment saying that this was resolved at AN. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:54, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

NOBODY PLEASE RESPOND HERE because I'm in the middle of drafting a note to Étienne Dolet. Nyttend (talk) 23:50, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

No such user exists. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

It was just a typo; his signature is Étienne Dolet even though his username is ÉtienneDolet. Nyttend (talk) 23:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

[Note that this response was completely rewritten; I started by saying that there weren't sources about the map, and then I realised how wrong I was. My note of 23:45 was written before I realised my error.] EtienneDolet, I deeply apologise. I had not looked and therefore was not aware that you'd already presented sources talking about the map itself. Had I known that, I would never have taken any actions in this situation: it wouldn't have been appropriate for me to block the other guy, since I'd recently filed a sockpuppet request against him, and of course it wouldn't have been right to levy sanctions against anyone on your side. I hope you understand that this would have been appropriate had I understood properly, i.e. if the only information we had about the map was the page where we got it, your actions would have been a fabrication of the source, a false statement (i.e. a hoax) about what was in the source. This is why I consistently considered your and others' actions to be hoaxing. Of course I now realise that you did the right thing, and I well understand that you and others were quite right to be angry. I never intended it as a method of joining a content dispute; I hope you understand that, and I ask your forgiveness for my recklessness. Nyttend (talk) 23:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Guy Macon, since you're talking about a no-action-taken close, what about "No action taken, because Nyttend now realizes that he recklessly misunderstood the situation and humbly apologizes"? Nyttend (talk) 00:01, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend, I accept your apology in good faith and in turn I want you to know that my confidence in you as an admin has been restored. I consider the matter resolved including any behavioural issues I may have raised about you. I wish you the best going forward and thank you again for restoring not only my confidence in you but also the good opinion I had of you in the past. Take care. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:09, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Well said, Nyttend. Let's close this thing now. Capeo (talk) 00:12, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thank you Nyttend. —Sladen (talk) 00:13, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Nyttend, while I am happy that the content dispute has been resolved, AN does not deal with conduct disputes. The reason this should be closed is because, while you still thought you were right, you made a commitment to either enter into a dispute as an editor or as an admin, not both as you did here. I believe you and trust you, and am confident that you won't use your admin tools in a content dispute even if you are 100% sure you are right. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:14, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Need an admin

Owing to a difference of understanding about unused file-redirects I tagged a number of these as G6, which as has been pointed out doesn't actually apply :(. I've done a mass revert on the most recent batch I'd tagged, but it will need an admin to restore the ones that were already deleted, these are of two sorts :-

1. File redirects listed here - Wikipedia:Database_reports/Unused_file_redirects
2. Files which were attempted cleanups after file moves to eliminate. (A number of these may well have been under CSD#F2 or FNC#9

I am also asking for removal of file-mover as I seem to have exceed the competence required.Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:17, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the file mover user right per your request. I am a bit busy right now and can't go through the deleted articles. I do appreciate that you brought this to our attention and are willing to step back until you are better acquainted with our arcane policies. HighInBC 17:22, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Have also made a request at WP:REFUND here, Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion#File:Jean_Metzinger.2C_1908-1909.2C_Bagneuses_.28Bathers.29.2C_illusrated_in_Gelett_Burgess.2C_The_Wild_Men_of_Paris.2C_The_Architectural_Record.2C_Document_3.2C_May_1910.2C_New_York.2C_location_unknown.jpg

I should know stuff like this, I am after all a fairly infamous contributor :( Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I am also wondering if to appease the concerns about competence if I should request an account lock, given that as a seasoned contributor, I should have been much more careful. I've done a rollback of pending G6 tags, but can't rollback the already deleted items (which are nearly all the red-links here - [[39]] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Database_reports/Unused_file_redirects&oldid=682853211).

I am rather disappointed. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 18:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I am sure we can all move on, it is not that bad. HighInBC 18:24, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I urge that we not overreact. In a narrow technical sense, there was an error. If someone uses a CSD that claims it is uncontroversial and someone else disagrees, by definition, it wasn't uncontroversial. That said I'm not fully understanding why these redirects are needed. I thought a file move was followed around by a bot which updated the links. I'm told my thinking is incorrect. If I'm the only one that thought this I don't know where I got it. If we don't have one why not? Many of these redirects had no substantive incoming links, however, the deletion is contested because there might be a deleted file somewhere that if it's restored that has a link. It's a pretty weak argument, and only the fact that redirects are cheap makes it adequate.

It look like clean-up to me. I did a number of the deletions and restored those I deleted. I've been asked to restore the ones deleted by @RHaworth:, but I'd prefer that someone else step in.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:48, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

• No mate, feel free to restore all the ones I deleted. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 12:49, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

The technical concern expressed was to do with prior revisions which now contain the "deleted" item as gaps in a layout look unprofessional. Having seen some badly maintained web-sites, I would actually agree that it looks unprofessional from a design standpoint. However, related to this is the issue of how to resolve "eclipsed" files, I.E files at Commons that share a name, filenames that are close to others, and filenames which are clearly meaningless to humans.Sfan00 IMG (talk) 18:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Redirects should be left for those reasons, and moreover because renaming breaks attribution when images are used on external websites. The exceptions are if the original filename requires redaction (see WP:FMV) or if a file shadows one on Commons. BethNaught (talk) 18:58, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 19:12, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

There's also the consideration of these [[40]], I'm not sure if there's an easy way for the report to recognise a Redirect/Commons vs a local image. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 19:27, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

25 more reasons you should have kept the filemover flag. Widr (talk) 19:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

• I think that User:Sfan00 IMG is overreacting. Some errors were made, but they are easily reversed. I don't see any abuse or misuse of the filemover flag, so I'm not sure why Sfan00 IMG requested removal of that flag. --Stefan2 (talk) 20:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Even if it was a massive deal for these pages to be deleted, I think the onus is on admins to check whether a csd tag is valid or not; I could tag any random article with any random csd tag, it's more the admins fault than mine if the page is deleted. This is of course a more obscure case, and I'm not blaming the admins for any major wrongdoing, I had no idea that this was an issue before now either. Sam Walton (talk) 10:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Need a history change

Can an administrator move these three edits from Program for Action (New York City Subway) to User:Epicgenius/sandbox/4, where these edits originated? The three edits are currently part of the history of Program for Action (New York City Subway), which was moved from User:Epicgenius/sandbox/4, but I made these three edits in the sandbox. Although I'd prefer that these three edits didn't show up in mainspace (which wasn't my original intention), it's fine with me if something else is done instead. Epic Genius (talk) 19:51, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Jenks24 (talk) 21:03, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Epic Genius (talk) 21:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Notice: Proposed change to WP:INVOLVED

Discussion is at Wikipedia talk:Administrators#Proposed change to WP:INVOLVED --Guy Macon (talk) 19:39, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Discussion was closed already, by NE Ent. Kraxler (talk) 22:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

And I undid the close. You are not allowed to make a comment opposing a proposal and then immediatly close it, especially when it is only hours old and there is an active discussion. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:56, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Main_Page#Proposal:_Remove_WP:In_the_news_from_the_main_page.

Is there any chance of giving a link to this in the watchlist notice, so we can get some proper discussion? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 10:31, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Who is compiling databases for pageviews now

Currently, I am unable to get responses about the current pageview tool at http://stats.grok.se. However, the operation is ongoing and continues to compile although occasionally, it seems that I need to leave a reminder. When I leave a reminder, I get no response, but work seems to get done. Now, I have a request at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Missing_stats_dates that needs a response from someone who is compiling or can compile the necessary databases. I am getting no response there. I am also getting no response at Wikipedia:Help_desk#Pageview_database_needs_some_administration. Where else can I go to find people knowledgeable about compiling our databases?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:45, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Aaron Rodgers

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Can someone add this information into the article Aaron Rodgers where it mentions his career highlights and rewards since its protected:

• Ranked #1 in the Top 100 Players of 2012

Thanks! --74.130.133.1 (talk) 18:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

74.130.133.1, you should make edit requests on Talk:Aaron Rodgers and you will need a more reliable source than another Wikipedia article. Look at NFL Top 100 Players of 2012 and you might find some sources. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:54, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Found one: [41] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.130.133.1 (talk) 19:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC) I'm closing the discussion. --74.130.133.1 (talk) 20:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

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Commissary spam

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I just blocked Special:Contributions/65.125.15.222, an IP address apparently belonging to the Defense Commissary Agency, for adding linkspam to Wikipedia despite warnings. That IP isn't on the "contact the WMF immediately" list, but with the general deference given to the Department of Defense in the US (which apparently led the Commisssary employees to believe that "I am NOT spamming, I am doing this for the Department of Defense" would be a valid excuse), I invite other admins to review my block. Huon (talk) 19:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Good block. Those links serve no encyclopedic purpose. We don't invite every soccer club in the world to add a link to their "team store" to their club article. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:12, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree, since the agency is on the periphery of the DoD. Spam is spam. Miniapolis 20:38, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Endorse block. Possibly being done in good faith, but fairly obviously their additions do not meet our external link guidelines. Unblock if they promise to stop and not do it again, obviously. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:31, 4 October 2015 (UTC).

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Procedural question - Can an identical edit be made to hundreds of articles with no discussion or consensus?

This discussion was started at WikiProject Politics, which stemmed from two threads at the Help Desk.[42][43] In short, an editor unilaterally made a contentious change to a date in hundreds of political articles without ever starting a discussion. So my question is very simple and is about the process, not the editor: Is someone allowed to make a contentious edit to a very large number of articles without getting consensus? If not, should the edtior be required to revert himself until the matter has been resolved? Czoal (talk) 22:48, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, editors should "be bold" if they think that something is going to be uncontroversial. If it does later turn out to be controversial, they should stop and garner consensus before continuing. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:28, 4 October 2015 (UTC).

As per WP:BRD the matter should get resolved first, before making any other reverts. See also Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary#Avoiding or limiting your reverts -- œ^™ 05:48, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

MFD

Disruptive IP socking. Closing this section, let the range block discussion happen separately. —SpacemanSpiff 06:03, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
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Anyone else notice that the entirety of MFD is being created by one person's listings? It's just one person who's responsible for probably close to half of the recent MFDs and they are problematic to say the least. Someone should speak to them about whether all these listings are a good use of time. 166.170.51.8 (talk) 04:53, 4 October 2015 (UTC) I agree. Someone should talk with Ricky81682 about the huge backlog he's created at MFD for listings that are all wrong. It's not helpful to have everything he finds deleted. 166.176.58.100 (talk) 05:07, 4 October 2015 (UTC) Can you share some more details about why these nominations are "wrong"? The ones that have attracted comment generally have supported the nominator. Do you have any article that has been listed by User:Ricky81682 at MFD recently? Lankiveil (speak to me) 05:46, 4 October 2015 (UTC). I should add that it is quite the impressive coincidence that the two completely separate anonymous IP users agreeing with each other here should happen to be using the same ISP, which geolocates to the same metro area. Lankiveil (speak to me) 05:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC).

Range block of disruptive IP editor needed

This undoubtedly is the same editor using two different IPs, and undoubtedly the same editor who's been out for Ricky81682's blood for a while now. They've filed numerous reports on AN/I, including one just recently which was closed 3 times and ended in a block for 166.176.58.105 . We could do with a range block here. BMK (talk) 05:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

I think a rangeblock was evaluated by Ponyo, but WP:RBI should be applicable. I do that when I see it and it's unlikely to be helpful right now. —SpacemanSpiff 06:01, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

This may help. These are some of the 166 IPs who are involved:

• 166.170.44.22
• 166.170.47.240
• 166.170.48.130
• 166.170.49.106
• 166.170.49.189
• 166.170.50.131
• 166.170.50.141
• 166.170.50.153
• 166.170.50.156
• 166.170.51.185
• 166.170.51.211
• 166.170.51.218
• 166.170.51.8

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• 166.176.57.153
• 166.176.57.66
• 166.176.58.100
• 166.176.58.105
• 166.176.58.155
• 166.176.59.12
• 166.176.59.124
• 166.176.59.18

BMK (talk) 06:05, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Range 166.170.32.0/19 (covers 8192 IP addresses) has over 500 edits in the last two weeks, only a handful of which come from this person. Range 166.176.56.0/22 (covers 1024 IP addresses): nearly a hundred edits in the last coupla weeks, and again too much collateral damage to consider a range block. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:04, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Nuts. What about an edit filter for anything from those ranges which mentions Ricky81682? BMK (talk) 15:35, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

I think the simplest thing to do here would be to revert at sight before any response or hat the section if there are any responses. As seen above, he hops IPs within a few minutes when it's needed. —SpacemanSpiff 15:52, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

remove my account creator and epcampus permissions

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I haven't used my account creator or epcampus flags in more than a year and I don't expect to anytime in the near future. Please remove them from my account. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:09, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

@Chris troutman: Done. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:16, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

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RfC about RfA's admin production

Anyone watching this page is invited to comment on this RfC concerning whether or not RfA is producing enough admins to meet the needs of Wikipedia. Please do not comment in this section, but rather take all discussion to the RfC itself. Thanks. --Biblioworm 20:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Harmful posts on my talk page

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A user from IP address, whose only contributions are several comments on an ITN nomination in which he mentions a "Russian propaganda" made from two different IP addresses (Special:Contributions/93.215.73.242 and Special:Contributions/93.215.69.93), is bothering me from a third IP address by complaining on incivility on my talk page and requesting apologies (Special:Contributions/93.215.90.216). Could anyone help me deal with this user, who is apparently not here to contribute in building an encyclopedia but to gripe on his wounded ego and bother other users? Thanks.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:00, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I can semi-protect your talk page for a little while if you like. Let me know. HighInBC 15:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protection for 24 hours so that only registered editors can edit is enough for now. Thanks.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

No problem, I have done that. You can contact me on my talk page if there is any further trouble. HighInBC 20:41, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

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CSD request for admins willing to think out of the box

"Oh that's very different. Never Mind!" NE Ent 10:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
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Could someone please delete Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Supdiop per WP:G9 and 3/4, pointless nonsense and/or trolling on the talk page of a closed Rfa talk page? NE Ent 09:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC) Nonsense, Jester. What harm does it do, and how is it either nonsense or trolling? Obviously the candidate, User:Supdiop, was frustrated at not having time to answer these questions before the early close of his RFA, and now he's answering them on the RFA talkpage — logged out to evade a block, yes. But those responses to RFA questions are a lot more constructive than the venting he's been doing "legally" on his talkpage during the block, and IMO they show, if anything, an attempt to return to constructive interactions. How does that hurt Wikipedia? What would be the point in upsetting the user further by deleting it? And I don't understand your conditional flattery about "thinking outside the box", either. Genuinely outside the box would be to let it stand, to ignore the block evasion, and to try to keep this user even though they got upset because of the painful RFA process. That's my recommendation. Bishonen | talk 09:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC). Oh, I didn't realize they were blocked -- had the Rfa but not their talk page watchlisted. Thought it was some other person. Now that you point that out ... Block evasion? What block evasion? I see nothing ... NE Ent 10:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Non-Admin closure

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I contest the non-admin closure of Monica Beverly Hillz by User:Sam Sailor. The close is not non-controversial and you can tell from the comments that there is activism involved with the keeps. Would an admin please check this out? Thank you Hekerui (talk) 13:34, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Ah someone else who thinks admins have magical consensus-divining powers. Nothing controversial about it. Passes GNG (albeit barely in my opinion) due to the amount of sources and coverage. The Huff Post one being the most reliable. Best case scenario for you - someone *might* have closed it as no-consensus due to the various arguments for/against, but it would still have defaulted to being kept then. Nothing to see here. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:41, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Why make assumptions about me? When one reads "to delete this page would constitute transphobia" in the keeps one sould get cautious and not close this as non-controversial by claiming a "wast majority" in the argument. Hekerui (talk) 13:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Wait, you're not an admin, this request was not directed at you at all. Hekerui (talk) 13:52, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

It looks like the close reflects the comments made at the AFD. Looking at the sheer numbers there are three delete recommendations and six keeps. Of the 3 deletes, I would discount the one from the IP as they are using a non-policy related reason (not popular) to argue for deletion. Of the 6 deletes, again I would discount the one IP as their argument is also not policy related (what they personally believe and transphobia). Every other argument is based on whether she meets GNG or not. All the arguments from the 7 remaining recommendations are of equal weight as far as their policy implications. With 5 editors saying she does meet GNG and 2 saying she does not, the only possible outcome for the AFD is keep. -- GB fan 14:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

That analysis not what I came here for, I merely wanted to point out that a non-admin close is only appropriate if it's truly non-controversial, and an admin can redo it properly. Hekerui (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Wrong venue. If you wish to contest the AfD do the following:

1. First discuss with the closer on their talk page.
2. File a deletion review.

There is nothing to be resolved at this page. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:19, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm not contesting, I asked for the normal process to be followed. That means a real admin closes the discussion. That has nothing to with deletion review, so please don't be so dismissive. Hekerui (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

(EC with closer) There is nothing controversial about the close or the subject matter. Sexuality-based topics are not inherantly 'controversial'. To explain - controversial in the case of closing a discussion would be where it is a close call, arguing rationales could go either way etc (as an example). Where a close is obviously a keep/delete due to the discussion, the topic at hand does not make it suddenly controversial and require an admin. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:25, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Vacate NAC by Sam Sailor, and proceed with admin closure, as requested by OP. Per WP:BADNAC - Sam Sailor made two comments in the discussion, showing a definite stance on the issue. That definitely bars him from closing the discussion. Also, this is the correct venue for this case. The OP complained about wrong procedure, and NACs are supposed to be undone only by uninvolved admins. Kraxler (talk) 15:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Based on this information which I was not aware before of I have undone the closure and closed it myself. The result is the same, I hope that the same answer is more palatable from an uninvolved person. HighInBC 15:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, HighInBC. User:Hekerui, if you disagree with the result, you may file a report at WP:DRV which is the venue to debate the merits of the result of an AfD. However, by far most users frown upon a request to change "keep" to "no consensus". A "delete" outcome, in this case, assessing the !votes, seems to be out of the question. Kraxler (talk) 15:43, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:NAC/WP:BADNAC is an essay. Looking at the history of the page reveals a little more about Sam Sailor's close. All three edits, the two comments and the close were all done within minutes of each other. To me it looked like Sam was just commenting on those in the course of his close. Since the comments were on two comments that were non-policy related and should be discounted, one keep and one delete, it wouldn't change the outcome. The close should have been left to stand. -- GB fan 15:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

The closer is supposed to assess the !votes "as is", not to first comment on them or on anything marked with other bolded introductions like "comment". Also, AfD is not a ballot, the closing rationale as "by vast majority" is totally off the mark. BADNAC is a rewrite of WP:NACD, I should have quoted the latter. It says: "Closing discussions in which you have offered an opinion...should be avoided." Sam Sailor has offered two opinions, it doesn't make any difference whether it was yesterday or just before closing a discussion. Kraxler (talk) 16:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

This is really getting into the realm of process wonkery. We could get 10 admins to close that and they would all come to the same conclusion. It does not really matter which name is on the closure. Perhaps we can all just move on? HighInBC 16:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. Good bye, for now. Kraxler (talk) 16:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

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Paul Trussell Edits

Hello, I wanted to inform you guys that User:86.20.223.120 is making edits on Paul Trussell claiming to be Paul Trussell. I have a hard time believing that a famous person would give out his identity knowing that somebody could trace his IP address. To be quite frank, I do not believe this editor is Paul Trussell, but I don't know how to handle this situation. CLCStudent (talk) 17:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

There's no reason to doubt it's him—since UK IP addresses are generally hyperdynamic, all his IP address is going to disclose is that he's somewhere in the UK (it will almost certainly have changed again by tomorrow). Contrary to popular belief, Wikipedia has no rule against editing the article on yourself, provided one adheres to WP:COI, and the edits don't appear excessively promotional. ‑ iridescent 20:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

However, one should inform the IP address that if it is him, he would do best to create an account and follow the COI guidelines to avoid a giant COI notice slapped on the front of the article or anything like that. The minor things can be done via talk page edit requests and serious issues can go to OTRS. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Review of Reguyla (Kumioko) reblock

Earlier today Kumioko was unblocked by Worm That Turned. This was done without consulting the blocking admin, Floquenbeam, or the community. These restrictions were placed upon him, one of which reads: "You may not comment on administrators as a group, nor on any sysop or desysop procedures." Kumioko's response can be read here. My query to WTT on blocking and his response can be read here. Upon reading this comment, made less than an hour ago, I blocked for one month. I see no change in Kumioko's behavior. Posted here for review. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Noting that I agree with the 1 month reblock and have declined the unblock request on those grounds. That said, I'd appreciate comments on the unblock - and also remind people that my recall process are certainly open on this matter. Worm^TT(talk) 20:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

As I stated on your talk page, I wish this had been brought to a noticeboard before the unblock. Yes, lots of drama would have ensued but we were going to get that anyways. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, what Neil said. A bold unblock, but really I don't quite see why this wasn't swung by the community first. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• It's a step in the right direction, but I'm stupefied as to why he was not indeffed. The thought of losing a wise and productive admin because of this makes me sick.- MrX 20:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Literally their first edit was a violation of the terms. Last time the community discussed this the standard was 6 months without being disruptive, an standard also not met. I think the block should be indefinite until the community agrees to their return, it was after all the community that banned this user and reviewed the ban in February giving clear terms. It is not for any one person to redefine terms set by the community, I think before this user is unblocked there needs to be a consensus to do so. HighInBC 20:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) A month seems a bit long, given it is a very new and short leash, so obviously I would oppose extending it. A week would make more sense, but I would rather have seen discussion with him before a block. Normally, comments like his wouldn't even get a second glance, and it is only due to the restrictions in place, which of course are there to prevent. Worm unblocked him originally, I endorsed that, and I think some venting will take place but we have to give someone the chance to get back into participating. More than a day, anyway. But yes, I think a block was at least one option in this circumstance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

As I said the above, he seems to be going off the deep end, so I guess this experiment in recovering banned editors is doomed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

(multiple e-c's later, there were only two comments here when I started writing this) Knowing that other individuals have mentioned discussion at Meta which I don't know about, and, on that basis, may have more information than I do, I am less than sure that I agree with the length of the block knowing what I do know, as I think some degree of venting might be understandable under these circumstances. So I might myself have chosen a shorter time, but, again, acknowledge that there are discussions elsewhere which might be directly relevant in this matter. And there is no way in hell I would support any discussion of recall of Worm regarding this matter. John Carter (talk) 20:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Comments Unblocking admin should have known better that any return of this user should have gained an explicit approval from the community for all the disruption that Reguyla (and their previous incarnations) caused. To unblock on their own initiative, without consulting the blocking admin, and by devising their own exotic restrictions is well outside the admin discretion levels. If the unblocking admin does not realize their faults (including causing the blocking admin to resign their bits and depart the field of engagement with hostility) then I question the level of trust that the community holds them and their actions in. Second, the blocked user in question has in the past resorted to many actions that individually would have caused a lesser editor to have been blocked indefinitely (including "Fait Acomplis" changes, Personal Attacks, Disruptive Editing, and Sockpuppetry). I question at this time (in light of the short timeframe between being unblocked and the first violation of the unblock conditions) if we should go ahead and deliberate a Community Ban on this user. As I have personal issues in the past with this user, I do not feel it is appropriate for me to propose the CBAN. Hasteur (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• WTF? Again? Do you people like being trolled or what? Smh.... Dave Dial (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• I support the block and would support increasing it to indef. The user immediately resumed the same toxic behaviour that got him banned. It was nauseating to read and it made me feel like quitting too, to be honest. To answer WormTT's question, I don't think the user should have been unblocked without consulting the community and the blocking admin (Floq.). -- Diannaa (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• ...You know, if WTT believed that the editor could contribute within the restrictions placed on their account, I have to trust that call. I would not have made it myself, but that's me. I am surprised that Kumioko is not indeffed, but that's also not my call. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 20:29, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I have been trying not to be hard on Worm but I really do have to comment about the administrative policy. It says Administrators may disagree, but administrative actions should not be reversed without good cause, careful thought, and (if likely to be objected to), where the administrator is presently available, a brief discussion with the administrator whose action is challenged.

User:Worm That Turned I would like to know if you thought that this was unlikely to be objected too by Floq or if you have some other way of explaining how this action was in line it administrative policy. This comment[44] seems to indicate that you did not communicate about this because "he thought Reguyla's behaviour was a farce and straight indef". This seems to indicate that you knew it would be objected too.

I know this part of the admin policy is broken all of the time and is not held nearly as sacred as the rule against wheel warring, however I am sick of these cowboy unblocks. They always produce drama and I think we need to make it more clear that the administrative policy needs to be followed in this area. Frankly you offered something to Kumioko that you had no standing to fulfil and they are right to be annoyed at the outcome. HighInBC 20:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I would argue that a lot of careful thought went into the unblock - apparently there were discussions with Kumioko off-wiki (!), and the restrictions were crafted with the editor's consent and input, ideally so that they'd be something that could be complied with. The fact that they then violated those restrictions is evidence of lots of bad faith on the part of Kumioko, certainly. But I trust that WTT was acting in good faith. Of course Floq should have been consulted, or at least notified as a courtesy - and the failure to do so is the likely reason that Floq retired today and resigned the tools. That's a concern as well. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 20:46, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I have said it before and I will say it again: When the community fails to keep abusive people off-wiki good people will leave. Good people will be correct to leave. HighInBC 20:49, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, you're absolutely not wrong. My name is in Kumioko's long and storied block history as well, and not on the unblock side. Does good faith on the unblocking admin's part mitigate a colossal fuckup like this? I dunno. I would expect this to go to arbcom, or at least to recall, before long. And then we lose two good admins over this... person. Distasteful. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 20:55, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

It would be my hope that this can be settled with some honest answers and be filed under the "lessons learned" category. I don't think we need to lose another admin and I hope Floq will return to the task. HighInBC 21:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree on all points, and my name isn't in Kumioko's "long and storied block history," but disparagingly referred to on his current user talk page as well. John Carter (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• If he was unblocked with restrictions and then turned around and violated those restrictions immediately then he should be immediately reblocked for the same duration as the block that was lifted. Not for a lesser amount of time, the same amount of time. Not to mention that WTT's unblock essentially removed a good admin due to Floq's retirement in disgust. I will say that had I still had the tools, I would have communicated with Floq first (likely via email in the event that on-wiki conversation was problematic) and then made my decision based on that. I would NOT unblock a known banned user whose MO is screeching "admin abuse" left right and centre without that conversation. VERY bad unblock, and the original indef needs to be reinstated as it's clear Kumioko has zero intention of actually abiding the restrictions. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 20:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• There is no way that Kumioko should have been unblocked unilaterally. It is a slap in the face to every single person who has been at the receiving end of their vandalism, personal attacks and disruption. If an unblock had been brought before the community I don't believe that there is any way it would have passed. In a December 2014 email I sent to Arbcom wherein I noted that Reguyla stated they planned on simply creating a new account if their block wasn't lifted I ended the email with "I have no idea why he's been provided so much leeway on this project at the expense of long-term valuable contributors, nor where his disproportionate sense of entitlement comes from". I stand by those comments. Reguyla continually expounded the belief that they were completely invaluable to the project and the block was a horrible disservice. Years have passed and it's apparent that they still believe this fallacy to be true, a one month block won't change that. I would definitely support an indef block. --Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 20:44, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Under the circumstances, particularly considering Reguyla has had his access to his user talk page removed, I would myself oppose discussion of an indef at this time, preferring that at least it wait until the editor in question can respond. John Carter (talk) 20:49, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• The blatant and immediate violation of the conditions of his unblock means that the original indef block should be reinstated, not a month-long block. As noted above by Ponyo, a one-month block won't magically make him compliant. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 20:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• The indefinite block was placed by the community and then reviewed by the community. Given the lack of community consensus for anything else, why do you think it should be finite? HighInBC 20:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• He was already indefinitely blocked. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support re-indef: Yeah coming off an indef and immediately breaking the terms of their "probation" should result in a reestablishment of the original block. --Stabila711 (talk) 20:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Indef - Here is the specific language of the unblock: "For the period of 1 year following the unblock [1] You may not comment on administrators as a group, nor on any sysop or desysop procedures. [2] You may not participate in any noticeboard listed in the general section of "Template:Noticeboard links" unless you are previously involved in or named as a party in a discussion that has been brought to the noticeboard. [3] Should you wish to take up an issue against any administrator, you must discuss the matter with Worm That Turned prior to doing so and get his agreement. [4] After the period of 1 year, these restrictions will expire. Should you break the restrictions, you will be blocked for a finite period of no less than 72 hours and no greater than 1 month. If the restrictions are breached 3 times, an indefinite block will be reinstated." Therefore, the one month block is appropriate, resumption of indef is not. If you have a problem with the unblock itself and want to eliminate two productive Administrators over this, you all know where ArbCom is. Your call, I don't care, and I seriously doubt that Dave and Dennis do either... They acted in good faith. Carrite (talk) 21:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• WP:Ignore all rules. Kumioko flagrantly disobeyed the unblock conditions immediately after being unblocked pursuant to the acceptance of those conditions. He should not be rewarded with a lesser block time for immediately violating them; if anything common sense dictates that the original indef block should be restored as he clearly has no intention of abiding by them. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think anyone should lose their bit over this. An experiment was tried and it didn't go so well. However it should be engraved somewhere that unblocking a well-known socker with behavior issues without having a community discussion first will always end badly. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Don't want to comment but I suppose I should. This had nothing to do with the fact that it was somehow "my" block, nor that I'm cranky that WTT didn't talk to me first; come on, you really think I'm that precious? Hell, sometimes I like "cowboy unblocks". But they have to be smart. There has to be some modicum of thought and research and cluefulness put into them. They shouldn't be made when you know for a fact that 6-7 different admins strongly disagree with the unblock. I'm stunned WTT didn't see this reblock coming; Reguyla has literally spent the last 2 years demonstrating what would happen if he was unblocked. My other problem with this unblock is that it shows a profound lack of respect for the (I'm guessing, but this is in the right ballpark) 3-4 dozen people who tried to help him over the years and were slapped in the face for their trouble, or who were subjected to his drama, taunting, socking, nasty comments on WO, and vandalism. Who (regardless of what Reguyla said off-wiki to WTT) have not been apologized to. It is inconceivable that there are people who think the solution is.... to give him a 45th "final" chance. This is not the Island of Misfit Toys. We should not be in the business of trying over and over to bring back known troublemakers completely incapable of editing collaboratively with others... who are so out of control that they got banned from Wikipediocracy! It's just mind-boggling. The third problem I have with it is the horrible message it just sent to all of the other similar editors out there (won't name them, I'm sure each of you can think of at least 3), who now realize the solution to things not going your way is to cause MAXIMUM DISRUPTION for months on end.

Cowboy unblocks in moderation are invaluable, I'd hate to see all of them tarnished with the same brush. And I don't want WTT desysopped or recalled, but I would like to see him agree to never again unblock someone who is blocked indefinitely without running it by some other admin first, ONWIKI. I'd also like to know from WTT if it is true that other admins knew this unblock was coming before it happened, based on off-wiki communication - not their names, just whether they exist or not. If they do exist then I'd like them to be honorable enough to identify themselves instead of letting WTT take the hit.

And for God's sake, I'd like to see Reguyla officially-no-fucking-doubt-about-it-community-banned so we don't have to do all this again in a month. Yes, he will never leave, ban or not. No, that doesn't mean we have to cave into his every whim. There are more of us than there are of him. RBI.

Now, goodbye. This was not some "ultimatum" that it's either him or me ("Ultimatum" is your word, Dave; a tacky assumption). You should ban him because he does significant damage to the project. I'm gone either way, at least for a long while, no matter what. This place leaves a bad taste in my mouth right now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Re-indef per Floq and Ponyo. He should not be rewarded with a reduced block for years of abuse. This was a seriously bad unblock by WTT. BethNaught (talk) 21:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Comments. I am sufficiently "involved" with this unhappy situation, historically (not recently), that I will not opine on the best outcome here, but I will provide some background. Reguyla/Kumioko has indisputably made voluminous and valuable contributions to mainspace, particularly in his area of specialist knowledge or interest, which is U.S. Medal of Honor winners. Those contributions have been quite valuable to the project and its readers.

Also indisputably, for some time Reguyla/Kumioko has been enormously disaffected with the governance of the project, including the ArbCom and the administrator corps. In too many instances, he has crossed the line from legitimate criticism (which is itself a positive contribution), to name-calling (which is not generally a positive contribution), and into out-and-out disruption. More than once he has said he was walking away from the project but then changed his mind. Some of his grievances have at least arguable merit and some of them don't, but in expressing all of them, a sense of proportion has consistently been lacking.

Ultimately Reguyla/Kumioko wound up as the subject of a community ban and was asked to leave us. Following the ban, his level of admitted, intentional disruption and trolling reached the point of consuming tens if not hundreds of hours of administrator time. The disruption was intentionally designed to prevent large numbers of other editors from editing (by triggering rangeblocks)—to the point that in this post, I concluded that it might become necessary for the Wikimedia Foundation to obtain a civil court order in order to deal with him, a suggestion I did not make lightly. Fortunately, that sort of disruption stopped a couple of months later and has not resumed to the best of my knowledge.

When I was an arbitrator, I was often typecast (sometimes accurately, sometimes simplistically) as the most lenient member of the Committee and the one most open to allowing second (or further) chances. From that vantage point, I completely understand what Worm That Turned was trying to achieve here: regaining the benefit of mainspace contributions from a knowledgeable editor, unburdened by the more ridiculous baggage that has accompanied his participation in recent years. But it is also understandable that some of the administrators who bore the brunt of dealing with the editor's worst misbehavior, both on and off wiki, would not want to see him welcomed back, or would have wanted to see a collaborative discussion of the pros and cons of having him back, before his return.... Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:42, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems that by trying to cut the Gordian knot, I stabbed myself in the leg. I will answer any and all criticism in the morning. Worm^TT(talk) 22:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• As I said to WTT on his talk page, I suspect he has perhaps drunk a bit too much from the fountain of good faith in this case. I have no doubt that his actions were, indeed, in good faith, even if they were lacking in other ways. Perhaps for WTT the best way for the community to treat the situation is to bandage up his wounds and give him that patented "mother's look" while saying "this won't happen again, will it?"

  There has been mixed success when editors who have been badly behaved are permitted to return to the project; this shouldn't be a surprise, as there are often wounds on both sides that simply don't seem to heal. However, historically the returns that have been approved by the larger community seem to have a greater likelihood of success, while those solely by the Arbitration Committee without community discussion, or by individual administrators, seem much more prone to failure. While I can sympathize with the view that it is really difficult to get the community to agree to such returns, perhaps the lesson to take from that is that the returning user *needs* to work within the community, and by permitting the return, the community has a stake in trying to ensure that the returnee stays out of trouble. I won't be commenting below. Risker (talk) 02:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• I support the original unblock, and I applaud Worm and Dennis for trying to bring him back into the fold. I also support reblocking when he violated the terms of his return for the third time. Everyone seemed inclined to let him get away with that one initial blast, at admins in general and "trolls" who oppose his return, after which he said "That was limited to my initial reply. Now lets move on!" But it wasn't limited, and he didn't move on. The second violation was when he called John Carter's comments "utterly disingenuous trolling". The third violation was his characterization of everyone who didn't participate in his unblocking (and probably didn't know it was under discussion): "Everyone else wanted to act like children, stick their thumb in their mouth (or elsewhere), ignore emails, stomp their feet and give the silent treatment." By that time, Neil was absolutely right to block him; even Worm said he would have blocked him. Worm and Dennis went out on a limb to give him a chance; his response was in effect to kick them in the teeth; I don't see any reason to ever let him back. --MelanieN (talk) 01:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse the reblock; very clear violation of the unblock conditions.--Ymblanter (talk) 02:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Community ban for Reguyla/Kumioko

Since it's clear he has no desire to edit Wikipedia constructively, follow community norms, or abide by restrictions, I am hereby proposing a community ban for Reguyla/Kumioko. I would actually also go one step further here, if possible: This ban can only be contested by application to the Ban Appeals Subcommittee or Arbitration committee, and not more than once every twelve months. I'm not stupid enough to assume this will actually get rid of him - I note what Floq says above is generally true of most, if not all, banned editors - but it will prevent crap like this from happening in the future. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Re-iterate support. With respect to WTT and Newyorkbrad, fiat justitia ruat caelum: Kumioko's actions have been intolerable. BethNaught (talk) 21:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support - this user has committed every violation in the book and has been given many chances to reform already. There were numerous reincarnations of the user as well. Given that his recent actions and behavior have clearly outweighed any positive contributions he's made to the project, it's time for him to go. Enough is enough. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Re-iterate support from above. --Stabila711 (talk) 21:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support it clearly isn't worth expending additional effort to rehabilitate this editor per the above. Hut 8.5 21:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support Frog and scorpion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support for all of the glaringly obvious reasons. I would also like to see some centralized effort to prevent IP sock hopping, including aggressively blocking proxies, reporting abuse to the ISPs that he uses, and an option to escalate to WMF for further action as mentioned by NewYorkBrad.- MrX 22:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks for picking up on my post, but to the best of my knowledge nothing that has happened in recent months would warrant that escalation—the types of outrageous disruption that led to my earlier comment have, as I said above, stopped (although the threat to sneak in and make mainspace contributions continues, which is a different issue). Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support - At the end of the day he won't ever learn or change and to be honest I think he's worn everyones patience out here, Personally I think he should just move on from this place, Nothing against WTT but unblocking him was IMHO a complete waste of time. –Davey2010^Talk 22:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support This person has a history of bad faith, failure to follow promises, and downright abuse towards our editors. When we fail to keep people like this away from the project good people leave and they are right to leave. Of course it can later be overturned by the community, but not any individual please. HighInBC 22:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support as a potential solution to a definite problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JzG (talk • contribs) 22:54, 5 October 2015‎
• Support The WP:WIKILAWYERING that led to previous name changes and unblocks has always wound up with the resumption of the behavior in which the community is treated like dirt. The extraordinary number of socks and personal attacks that occurred in the past should have been enough to keep from any admin from unblocking without consulting the community first. A WP:BAN will ensure that wont happen in the future. MarnetteD|Talk 23:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• oppose without prejudice. I trust the judgement of WTT and NYB, if they saw there was a glimmer of hope we should not extinguish it. the early violation was minor but very poor form. I'm willing to let the month tick out, then see if the pattern continues. the leash should be very short considering past history, and I do not begrudge those who think it is already too long Gaijin42 (talk) 23:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• I cannot speak for everyone but my opinion on this ban is not based on the reaction to recent unblock. It is based off a history of using sockpuppetry to intentionally get large ranges of IPs blocked so as to cause collateral damage as a form of extortion. It is based off of vicious personal attacks against numerous editors. It is based off their leaking of private information about admins and other respected users. This goes a lot deeper than the events of today. HighInBC 23:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of this history. I was personally implicated in one of his impersonation disruptions. My comment about WTT and NYB holding out a glimmer of hope was taking that into account. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. HighInBC 23:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support The first edit after unblock was to refer to those who have previously experienced the Kumioko/Reguyla time-sink as "trolls", and to reiterate his rejection of the original ban, and to repeat the same tired nonsense about double standards and fairness. Being fair to a drama-magnet leads to more drama. A new ban is required to prevent future abuse of the community by misguided admin unblocks. Johnuniq (talk) 23:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support, but let's try to make our decision objectively, rather than as an emotional response in the heat of the moment. I'm not averse to an unblock one day, and Dave undoubtedly acted in what he felt was the best interest of the encyclopaedia by unblocking. The trouble is that Reguyla/Kumioko has caused a great deal of disruption and pain to this community. Part of the healing process is that the cause of the disruption and pain leaves the community for a while. Kumioko simply hasn't done that, and the damage he has done can't be repaired until he does. He has made useful edits and even insightful comments while socking, but these are vastly outweighed by the disruption he caused, and the deep personal resentment he has given many editors to feel through his conduct towards them and towards this community. That he would breach his unblocking conditions within hours of being unblocked, going back to attacking individuals and admins as a collective and all the other things that led to his ban, only confirms that it is too soon for him to come back (not, as I say, that he ever left in any meaningful sense)—too soon for him, and too soon for us. Kumioko needs to leave enwiki and its community alone for long enough for the wounds to heal. Then we can revisit allowing him back. @Reguyla: I strongly suggest you read this; and for what it's worth, I'm not one of those editors who feels personal resentment towards you, so if you have helpful suggestions or comments to make, you can email me or post on my Commons talk page. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

  That is why I suggested BASC/ArbCom as a requirement to lift the ban. Kumioko's future should not be left to a single admin (given that this blew up in the community's face) nor to the community writ large (who won't be forgetting this incident or the efforts to blackmail us into letting him back); I would rather someone who can fairly assess his behaviour and his words do so. That way he gets a (relatively) unbiased way to appeal and the rest of the community doesn't have an opportunity to dogpile on and torque him off even more. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 23:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose more or less as per Gaijin42. Worm and Dennis indicated that they saw some reason to hope here, and not knowing what they saw, I am obligated to trust the judgment of some admins I trust. And, at the very least, I would like to be able to see Reguyla participate in such a discussion as this, which right now he can't do. John Carter (talk) 23:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is too extreme. Everyking (talk) 23:19, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

  Not really. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 23:24, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support As I see things, this latest incident is the culmination of a five year campaign of disruption, personal attacks, harassment and industrial scale sockpuppetry. Yes, this person is capable of writing Featured articles, but they are clearly unwilling or incapable of doing so without creating monumental disruption and grief for others to have to deal with, without remorse, and with every likelihood that the disruption will resume instantly if they are allowed to return. Their determination to combat their "enemies" ignores the fact that they are their own worst enemy. ~·Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it
• Oppose quite obviously. We've worked with reintegrating previously banned editors before, it is always a bumpy road, but the fact is, the initial ban WAS too quick, and if we are going to call ourselves a community, if we have the gall to say we treat everyone equal, we need to be a little more patient. Keep in mind, this current block was a violation, but it was still a small thing. Of course that is going to get him into vent mode. My personal thought is that he has a lot to contribute and it is easier to manage if he is here legitimately. This is why I supported the initial unblock. To ban or indef block him now for a small comment would simply be proving him right, that this is a kangaroo court at AN where anyone can be permanently banned simply for being unpopular. Everyone needs to just calm down, have a tea, and ask if what he has done since being unblocked is really indef worthy. To me, obviously not. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• Dennis Brown Did you not think the unblock would be very controversial and if so, did you suggest bringing it to a noticeboard first? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:52, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• It is a bit more complicated than I can explain in a paragraph, but I've been talking to Kumioko since he was first banned, including trying to convince him to not sock. Keep in mind, Worm did the unblock, not me, so it wasn't my decision to make in this case. I was aware of it and supported it beforehand. There already has been previous community discussions if you go and follow the history, which is too complicated to explain here, again. As far as I can tell, Worm had full authority to unblock him as the community had agreed to lift the ban after a period of time. And of course I knew it would be controversial, but I've never strayed from supporting an action I think is worth the risk, even if it is unpopular. Right now, many people don't have the full story and I don't expect they will bother to find it out. I have no control over that. Of course, Reguyla shot himself in the foot as well, but I don't think all this "pitchforks and torches" is a shining example of community participation. That I'm in the minority is irrelevant in this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Where is it written that we treat all users equally? I would say the we decidedly treat users who try to engage in extortion far from equal to an editor who does not. I normally have a lot of respect for your opinion but in this case I think your point is lacking. To suggest that we are banning him for a small comment seems to disregard the past behaviour of this user. The argument you have presented does not seem to address the issues at hand, we are not here asking for a ban because he mentioned admins when he was told not to mention admins. There is a very long history here and you know that. HighInBC 23:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• We already extracted our pint of blood for that. Unblocking was a way of starting over with restrictions. To drag behavior he has already "served time for" so quick after an unblock and a simple comment is saying that we will never forgive or forget. He clearly messed up as soon as he got back, but lets not fool ourselves, it doesn't seem that many were even willing to give it a chance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• DB, please post a diff of a single comment about a) R or b) the unblock before his trolls comment. NE Ent 02:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry, but not going to play games Ent. Your arbitrary line in the sand is meaningless in a case that has spanned two years. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:39, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• Support - A major sockmaster gets unblocked, blows his unblock terms in the first edit, and winds up here. Enough is enough. Jusdafax 23:54, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support It's not that he is "unpopular", no doubt he has friends, but it's his disruptive behavior that brings him to a ban - that's what a ban is to judge and his conduct as a User has been terrible for an extended time, whether he is personally popular or not. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support: This editor has repeatedly expressed an adamant defiance to the consensus and the statutes of Wikipedia. Every post-block edit has been oppositional, with no indication of slowing down. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 00:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)Support That in the space of a few hours we've lost one admin with diamond level bona fides, that we're about to admonish another admin who has been well respected, and that we have many editors that have held advanced permissions all concur that this user is a lost cause should be indicative that no edits by this user under any guise will be able to outweigh the drama/agony/disruption that they have caused. As I referenced in the Block review this user has gone for Fait Acomplis actions, personal attacks, sockpuppetry, and more. I would prefer a indefinite ban to be only appealed through Ban Appeals Subcommittee with a public comment period so the subcommittee can get the views of the community at large since the community at large has been the main target of this user's disruption. Hasteur (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support: Kumiko's very first edit after being unblocked is to violate the terms of the unblock in a particularly drama-mongering fashion? That's not the action of someone who intends to be a productive editor. --Carnildo (talk) 00:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - A very productive editor whose feelings were hurt by repeated rejection in the RFA process and who lashed out. I don't find his "violation" all that shocking. Give him a chance, a path back. Carrite (talk) 00:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support. No amount of constructive work will be able to counteract the massive disruption and thousands of hours lost by others because of this guy. He is an extremist who will never stop trying to blow up Wikipedia to remake it in his own image. Bar the door. Binksternet (talk) 00:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support. They've had far too many "final chances" and have never shown any sign of getting the point. I'd even support an actual "infinite" ban with no appeals permitted; Kumioko seems to be an incorrigible sort who will never be a net positive to the project again. rdfox 76 (talk) 01:18, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• (ec) Support. This user has perhaps been give more "second chances" that any other editor in Wikipedia's history, and has failed to live up to them every time. Given this, a re-instatement of the community ban of a few years ago is more than justified. BMK (talk) 01:19, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• While I'm commenting, the Kumioko drama is so toxic that I don't believe any admin should be sanctioned in any way over it, regardless of my opinions about who did the right thing and who did not (which I have, but will hold onto). In any case, a community ban is needed to put any future action beyond the reach of a single admin, as an indef block would not. BMK (talk) 01:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• I am of the opinion that WTT acted in good faith, and sanctioning him for this short of a strong reprimand is excessive; my assumption is that WTT didn't do his research into the whole Kumioko situation. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 03:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• Considering the amount of community effort Reguyla has consumed ban discussion, ban review resulting in ineffable, bizzare "blocked but not banned," ANI discussion about talk page nonsense and, in the brief time since his unblock:
  • Immediately calls editors trolls
  • Calls another editor a diva
  • Calls editors thumb sucking children
  • Reviewing the talk page in its entirety ... its clear he simply agreed to the conditions to get unblocked.
  • Problem is apparently we're not mature enough: All I wanted to do was edit and improve the project but you all weren't mature enough. So ok, understood. I never believed for a second that this was going to be real anyway
• Support site ban. NE Ent 01:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban - As per BMK, this user may have been given more second chances than any other editor in history, and until now there have always been a few sympathetic editors who let them Wikilaywer their way out. Enough is enough. Formal community site ban, with restrictions on appeal. This has gone on too long. There have been too many second chances. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban. The fact that Dennis has to use the words "trying to convince him not to sock" pretty much encapsulates the mindset of a terminally disruptive editor who thinks nothing of violating and flouting policy. WTT has a very kind heart and in my observation has kindly given people second chances due to this kind nature. However, in this case it's clear that the community wants the site ban re-instated. Softlavender (talk) 02:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban. My goodness what a time-sink this editor has been, and for such a long time. With regard to recent events, it's hard to argue with that NE Ent lays out a couple of posts above. It frequently surprises me just how often Wikipedia tries to give "one more chance" to editors who make so little effort to understand how they come across to others. WTT, you are kind, and you did not mean it this way, but (and from what I can tell you are able to handle some direct feedback) this is quite disrespectful to fellow admins who have dealt with these problems, and to the community in general. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban. It is clear that Kumioko cannot control himself. Obviously we're very different people but if I was in his shoes and got an unblock after all the disruption I've caused, I would shut up and edit productively for a couple weeks before testing the boundaries of my restrictions. The fact that he immediately went back to his old ways shows he hasn't changed enough or at all (as does his message below). As a rather unpleasant side-effect, based on his comments, I find my faith in Dennis Brown's judgement in these kinds of matters significantly reduced. Your fellow editors are not a kangaroo court and "you don't have the full story but it's too complicated to explain" is not helpful. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:26, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Please don't close too early

In the past Kumioko has complained perhaps rightly that the ban discussion was rushed. The banning policy calls for at least 24 hours discussion, I think we can do at least 48 hours so that we can lay to rest the idea that the community came to the wrong decision because we rushed. Ideally it can be closed by an admin who has no prior involvement in this case if there are any. This is a user who looks for any excuse to invalidate the legitimacy of their ban so lets not give him any. HighInBC 23:02, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. One of the reasons I blocked for thirty days and not indef is because I didn't want to perpetually hear, "I was blocked indef only because NeilN doesn't like me." Goes without saying but I'm fine with whatever the community decides after a proper discussion. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your restraint. Not sure I would have had such foresight in your shoes. HighInBC 23:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

The thing is, looking at Reguyla's block log, there was every single indication that any conditions laid out for him would be ignored, and a HUGE part of his MO is complaining that the admin corps hates him. He would have complained about the block no matter who levied it, even if it was for 24 hours, and he would have defied his terms of unblock. The assumption of good faith is not a suicide pact, and we have long reached the point where Kumioko should be barred from participation permanently. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 23:29, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree that no matter what it is likely they will cry foul. However even in the ban discussion above long term contributors are expressing concern that the original ban was rushed. I want that concern to be put to rest. HighInBC 23:59, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it is wise to let the discussion continue for 48 or more, so that no one can say that it was rushed through. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

• I imagine this discussion is going to get quite convoluted so it might be worth having closers worked out. From memory I've been uninvolved (apart from a few clerk comments at SPI and a clerical block here) with Kumioko/Reguyla so I'm happy to close this in a couple days. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
• Not that I'm even being considered here, but as someone who has had positive interactions with Kumioko, I will have to recuse here as I am clearly biased.—^cyberpower_Chat:Online 00:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • If the above comment from @Callanecc: is indicating he thinks this thread might benefit from multiple closers, maybe it might make sense to have a separate section below where those who wish to take part in the closing can indicate as much? John Carter (talk) 01:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Not necessarily that it needs multiple closers (but not a bad idea if the community wants it), just that there was a need for someone to put their hand up early on. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Responsiblity

This is not hard.

• Reguyla is responsible for what Reguyla did, no one else.
• Floq is responsible for / entitled to his decision to take a break; the choice is his, and in his own words I'm not a child.
• WTT is only responsible for his actions, no one else's. Did I personally agree with the unblock? No. Was it a violation of policy? No. The community imposed a ban; the community later removed the ban, making Reguyla eligible for an unblock if any admin thought it was not longer necessary to stop disruption. We tolerate good faith mistakes because if we don't, there will be no one left to write the encyclopedia. NE Ent 01:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

  ^This. Without commenting on whether Reguyla should be banned or not. It's not WTT's fault floquenbeam (talk · contribs) left.—^cyberpower_{Chat:Limited Access} 02:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

  Not to mention, WTT clearly acted in good faith. At best, he should be reprimanded, but I doubt at this point that's even necessary or desirable. My hope is that he takes a lesson away from this: Always do the research on editors who are seeking unblock. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 03:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Statement from Reguyla

Reguyla asked on IRC to be unbanned for the purposes of participating in this discussion. I did not agree to unblock, but I do think he should be allowed the opportunity for a response. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:38, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I just wanted to post a statement but given the length of this discussion its going to be a bit long, sorry. I also am disappointed that again the community is having a ban discussion and refuses to let me participate in it to defend myself or argue in my own defense.

I cannot believe that we are having a ban discussion the same day as I was unblocked over a minor comment. I also cannot believe I got a month block for a comment that shouldn't have gotten more than a week at most. So about that comment first, WTT unblocked me and left the statement he left. I didn't agree with all of it and wanted to comment to clarify it. I fully intended it to be a one time statement and I was moving on. I was able to do a few edits, but much of my time today was simply responding to comments about my unblock.

With regard to the hyperbole about how horribly disruptive I am. Yes I over rected to my ban. A small group of people kept resubmitting ban requests till they got what they wanted. I have apologized for that several times in several ways. In August of last year the community had a ban review discussion and voted to unblock me in February 2015. Several people who did not agree with my unban created a disruption on my talk page, blocked me and then started a discussion at AN that I was not allowed to comment on. They extended my block to May and then again to August. Then Floquenbeam indef blocked my account, so the indef was not from the community as a couple has stated It was from Floquenbeam who clearly stated that my unban was a clear farce anyway. I have ignored the last three extensions since because they were invalid. There is no reason for three people who opposed my unban to be allowed to start a new discussion to change the outcome. So I have ignored the block extensions first and continue to abide by the community unban decision.

For more than the last year ALL of my edits and contributions have been positive. I have reverted vandalism, created articles and tagged articles for WikiProjects. So arguments that I am not here to participate or am being disruptive, at least for the last year, are hogwash. In fact, several people have taken it upon themselves to create a disruption in my name if any account is thought to be me by deleting the articles created, restoring the vandalism I reverted and reverting the edits. This damages the project and causes a disruption for no reason when there is no policy or reason to do it other than to create drama. The only thing I did wrong was not use my Reguyla account, which should have been unblocked last February.

So Worm that turned and I talked and he agreed to unblock me with restrictions that I did not agree with but was forced to concede to because no admins were willing to follow the last community unban decision.

Several people commented that I am not a positive participant in the project, well how can I be if you won't let me edit. The site admins refuse to follow the community decision so I follow the community decision through Ignore all Rules. "If a rule hinders improvement of the project, then ignore it".

So, if the community is unwilling to follow the community decision to unban me but allow some to keep insisting a new ban discussion is needed to keep me banned, why should I follow it? I am trying to contribute positively but if all you do is find reasons to block you will keep finding them.

Do not unblock. Enough is enough.--Ymblanter (talk) 02:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

@Ymblanter:

I agree Ymblanter, enough is enough. Its time to follow the community unban discussion that was decided last year. Its time to stop having ban discussions for no reason like this one. Its time to stop manipulating policy to keep me blocked for no reason. The community already unblocked me last year and ever since I have been following the spirit of that unban. I can't do anything not having an admin willing to perform the action and I cannot do anything about the lack of respect for the community or its decision that teh admins conttinue to ignore. I can however control participating in a positive way in the spirit of the community unban decision. You don't have to unblock me and you can even revert my edits, but does reverting and deleting positive edits out of spite really benefit the project or our readers? Does it really help the project to make drama just for the sake of it just because I think all editors, admin and regular edit should be treated equally? Does that opinion really make me that much of a threat? My opinion is no.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Stay away from Wikipedia for a full year. By showing restraint & faithfully serving your ban, you could get reinstated. GoodDay (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I notice a lot of "me me me" in Reguyla's communiqués. Where's the "we", "us", etc.? I'm sorry, but, Reguyla, you're coming across as a man on a mission from God. You may have been - may still be - a productive editor when left to content. But, to put it very bluntly, you're displaying some horrible narcissism here. You clearly don't give a toss about the whole "crowd" aspect of "crowdsourced" and scream that you're being repressed when criticised. The whole reason we're even debating a community ban yet again is because you're more interested in relitigating battles lost as opposed to editing encyclopædia content. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 03:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

A highly personal opinion on the infamous "unpleasant but productive" editors

I've often talked about my view of this, and this affords me an opportunity to expound my thoughts a bit more. This is going to be a very personal (and unpopular) opinion with which I expect most of the regular AN crowd to disagree. Kumioko/Reguyla, to my eyes, falls in the same general category as Eric Corbett, Niemti, Technical 13, Alakzi, Δ (and others I'm forgetting about, no offense): editors who are productive/constructive when it comes to encyclopedic content (or technical development of the project as a whole, including MediaWiki, Templates or tools), but otherwise can prove ill-natured, unpleasant, stubborn, intransigeant, prone to ranting/complaining or POINTy behaviour, prone to displays of anger or who sometimes lash out in frustration, and whose behaviour is often not conducive to a positive, collaborative community atmosphere. This class of editors... oooh, the community loves to hate them and bash them and wring them like dishcloths on any administrative noticeboard they can, waving the banners of civility and putting the well-being of the community before the health of the encyclopedia -- whereas I see encyclopedia content as paramount and the community behind it as secondary and optional. Working with good people is fun and preferable whenever possible, but I'd rather have to deal with jerks and assholes who write desirable and good encyclopedic content then hang out with nice, pleasant people who slowly circlejerk their e-peens around the so-called "dramaboards". The end result that serves readers should reign supreme and I wish the community would grant considerably more leeway for misbehaviour in interhuman relationships when the content contributions are worth taking a bit of verbal abuse. I guess I'm being utopic... ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)