Wikipedia:Templates for discussion: Difference between revisions
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{{Short description|Page for discussing mergers and deletions of templates}} |
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{{Shortcut|[[WP:TFD]]}} |
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{{Redirect|WP:TFD|the page used for TimedText or talk page deletion discussions|Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion}} |
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{{deletiontools}} |
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{{About|discussion of templates|a list of templates used for discussion|Wikipedia:List of discussion templates}} |
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This page is for deleting things in the [[Wikipedia:Template namespace|Template namespace]], which is used for reusable boilerplate messages and article series boxes. Deletion of these may be appropriate if the template: |
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{{pp-move-indef}} |
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{{#ifexpr:{{#invoke:XfD old|total|title=Wikipedia:Templates for discussion}}>10|{{Admin backlog|bot=AnomieBOT}}}} |
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{{offer help}} |
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{{floating link|Closing instructions}} |
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<div class="tfd-header"> |
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{{Ombox |
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| style = text-align: center |
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| type = notice |
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| image = none |
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| text = {{hlist|''[[#toc|Skip to table of contents]]''|''[[#Current discussions|Skip to current discussions]]''|''{{Purge|Purge this page}}''}}<inputbox> |
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type=fulltext |
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prefix=Wikipedia:Templates for d |
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break=no |
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width=50 |
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placeholder=Enter [[Template:Example]] to find a discussion |
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searchbuttonlabel=Search archives |
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</inputbox> |
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| imageright = {{Shortcut|WP:TFD}} |
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}} |
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{{XFD backlog|right}} |
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{{Deletion debates}} |
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On this page, the deletion or merging of '''[[Help:Template|templates]]''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Lua|modules]]''', except as noted [[#What not to propose for discussion here|below]], is discussed. |
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* is not helpful or noteworthy; |
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{{TOC limit|3}} |
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* is redundant with other templates |
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* is unused. |
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==How to use this page== |
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For guidelines on acceptable boilerplate messages, see [[Wikipedia:Template namespace]].<br /> |
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===<span id="NOT"></span> What ''not'' to propose for discussion here=== |
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For guidelines on acceptable article series boxes, see [[Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes]]. |
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{{shortcut|WP:TFD#NOT}} |
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The majority of deletion and merger proposals concerning pages in the [[WP:Template namespace|template namespace]] and [[WP:Lua|module namespace]] should be listed on this page. However, there are a few exceptions: |
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; Stub templates |
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If you vote, please ''give a reason'' how it either does or does not fulfill these criteria. Comments such as "I like it," or "I find it useful," while potentially true, generally do not fulfill this requirement. It also helps if you '''Bold''' your vote. |
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: Stub templates and categories should be listed at [[WP:CFD|Categories for discussion]], as these templates are merely containers for their categories, ''unless'' the stub template does not come with a category and is being nominated by itself. |
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; Userboxes |
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: Userboxes should be listed at [[WP:MFD|Miscellany for deletion]], regardless of the namespace in which they reside. |
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; Speedy deletion candidates |
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: If the template clearly satisfies a [[WP:CSD|criterion for speedy deletion]], tag it with a [[:Category:Speedy deletion templates|speedy deletion template]]. For example, if you wrote the template and request its deletion, tag it with {{t|Db-author}}. See also [[WP:T5]]. |
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; Policy or guideline templates |
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: Templates that are associated with particular [[WP:PAG|Wikipedia policies or guidelines]], such as the [[:Category:Speedy deletion templates|speedy deletion templates]], cannot be listed at TfD separately. They should be discussed on the talk page of the relevant guideline. |
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; Template redirects |
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: List at [[WP:RFD|Redirects for discussion]]. |
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; Moving and renaming |
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: Use [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]]. |
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===<span class="anchor" id="REASONS"></span> Reasons to delete a template=== |
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In addition to voting "'''Keep'''" or "'''Delete'''," a valid vote on this page is "'''Convert to category'''". In this case, all pages with the template should be added to an appropriately named category, and then the template should be deleted. You could also vote to '''Redirect''' to another template (usually more popular or with a better title). Sometimes an opinion will be to keep the template but fix some perceived problems with it, so some people add "'''Rewrite'''" or "'''Retitle'''" to their comments. Also, some people will specify '''Userfy''', which means to move to a User's subpage. |
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{{shortcut|WP:TFD#REASONS}} |
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# The template violates some part of the [[WP:TMP|template namespace guidelines]], and can't be altered to be in compliance. |
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# The template is redundant to a better-designed template. |
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# The template is not used, either directly or by [[WP:SUBST|template substitution]] (the latter cannot be concluded from the absence of backlinks), {{Strong|and has no likelihood of {{em|being}} used}}. |
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# The template violates a policy such as [[WP:NPOV|Neutral point of view]] or [[WP:CIVIL|Civility]] and it can't be fixed through normal editing. |
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Templates |
Templates should not be nominated if the issue can be fixed by normal editing. Instead, you should edit the template to fix its problems. If the template is complex and you don't know how to fix it, [[WP:WPT|WikiProject Templates]] may be able to help. |
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Templates for which none of these apply may be deleted by [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] here. If a template is being misused, consider clarifying its documentation to indicate the correct use, or informing those that misuse it, rather than nominating it for deletion. Initiate a discussion on the template talk page if the correct use itself is under debate. |
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'''Marking templates to be voted on:''' Insert the text <nowiki>{{tfd}}</nowiki> to the top of templates you list here. This adds the following message: |
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===Listing a template=== |
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{{tfd}} |
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{{shortcut|WP:TFDHOWTO|WP:TFDHOW}} |
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{{Strong|To list a template for deletion or merging, adhere to the following three-step process.}} Utilizing [[#Twinkle|Twinkle]] is strongly recommended as it automates and simplifies these steps. To use Twinkle, click TW [[File:OOjs UI icon caretDown.svg|15px|link=]] in the toolbar (top right of the page), then select XFD. Do {{em|not}} include the "Template:" prefix in any of the steps, unless specifically instructed otherwise. |
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{| class="wikitable" style="clear: both;" |
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|- |
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! scope="col" | Step |
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! scope="col" | Instructions |
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|- id="Step I" |
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! scope="row" style="background-color: #ffff99;" | I: Tag the template. |
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| style="padding: 0.5em;" | '''Add one of the following codes to the top of the template page:''' |
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* For deletion: {{Tlxs|Tfd}} |
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'''''For clarity, this message should be added inside the box where applicable.''''' When being added to templates which have already been blanked, and are just sitting around as blanks, the message should be added to the template talk page. Again, ''do not blank'' templates to list them here - this is just if the template is already blank when you are listing it. |
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* For deletion of a sidebar or infobox template: {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=type=sidebar}} |
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* For deletion of an inline template: {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=type=inline}} |
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* For deletion of a [[Help:Module|module]]: {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=type=module|3=page={{var|{{Gray|name of module}}}}}} at the top of the module's <code>/doc</code> subpage. |
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* For merging: {{Tlxs|Tfm|{{var|{{Gray|name of other template}}}}}} |
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* For merging an inline template: {{Tlxs|Tfm|2=type=inline|3={{var|{{Gray|name of other template to be merged}}}}}} |
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** Other values for {{para|type}} are available, see {{section link|Template:Template for discussion#Display on articles}} |
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<hr style=margin-top:1em; margin-bottom:1em;"/> |
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Templates that have been listed for more than five days are eligible for deletion if either a consensus to do so has been reached or no objections to its deletion have been raised (disputed- see talk). Such templates should be dealt with as soon as possible. |
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'''Note:''' |
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Archived discussions are logged per the instructions at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log]], and are located at [[/Log/Deleted]] and [[/Log/Not deleted]]. |
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* If it is an inline template, do not add a newline between the TfD notice and the code of the template. |
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* If the template to be nominated for deletion is [[Wikipedia:Page protection|protected]], make a request for the TfD tag to be added, by posting on the template's talk page and using the {{Tlx|editprotected}} template to catch the attention of [[Wikipedia:Administrators|administrators]] or [[Wikipedia:Template editors|template editors]]. |
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* For templates designed to be [[WP:SUBST|substituted]], add {{tag|noinclude}} around the TfD notice to prevent it from being substituted alongside the template. |
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* Do not mark the edit as minor. |
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* Use an edit summary like<br /><code>Nominated for deletion; see <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#</nowiki>Template:{{var|{{Gray|name of template}}}}<nowiki>]]</nowiki></code><br /> or <br /><code>Nominated for merging; see <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#</nowiki>Template:{{var|{{gray|name of template}}}}<nowiki>]]</nowiki></code>. |
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* Before saving your edit, preview your edit to ensure the Tfd message is displayed properly. |
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'''Multiple templates:''' If you are nominating multiple related templates, choose a meaningful title for the discussion (like "[[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 August 14#American films by decade|American films by decade templates]]"). Tag every template with {{Tlxs|Tfd|2=heading={{var|{{Gray|discussion title}}}}}} or {{Tlxs|Tfm|{{var|{{Gray|name of other template}}}}|3=heading={{var|{{Gray|discussion title}}}}}} instead of the versions given above, replacing <code>{{var|discussion title}}</code> with the title you chose (but still not changing the <code>PAGENAME</code> code). |
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== Listings == |
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Please put new listings under [[#{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}|today's date]] at the '''''top of the section'''''. |
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'''Related categories:''' If including template-populated tracking categories in the TfD nomination, add {{Tlx|Catfd|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}}} to the top of any categories that would be deleted as a result of the TfD, this time replacing <code>{{var|template name}}</code> with the name of the template being nominated. (If you instead chose a meaningful title for a multiple nomination, use {{Tlx|Catfd|2=header={{var|{{Gray|title of nomination}}}}}} instead.) |
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=== May 12 === |
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'''TemplateStyles pages:''' The above templates will not work on [[WP:TemplateStyles|TemplateStyles]] pages. Instead, add a CSS comment to the top of the page: |
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====[[Template:Pseudoprotected]]==== |
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:<code>/* This template is being discussed in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy. Help reach a consensus at its entry: <nowiki>https://</nowiki>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{CURRENTYEAR}}_{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}}_{{CURRENTDAY}}#Template:{{var|{{Gray|template_name}}}}.css */</code> |
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This template is not in use. It is also a misnomer since it doesn't have anything to do with protection. Finally, while the idea in principle may be good, I don't see it stopping edit wars in any way (it's tempting for one party to revert to that version, then slap on this template to stop the other party). Bottom line - we have reasonable mechanisms for revert wars and edit conflicts, and this isn't it. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 14:33, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' - I have mostly seen this used by people trying to freeze an article on their own version. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 18:21, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - this seems like a good idea to try to reduce the number of long-term protections. If the querelous abuse it, hit the querelous, not the template. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 18:43, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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**This turns out to be part of a ''rejected'' WikiPolicy ([[Wikipedia:Non-admin protection]]), so it should not actually be used IMHO. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 19:01, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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|- id="Step II" |
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==== [[Template:Protecteds]], and also [[Template:Tfds]] ==== |
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! scope="row" style="background-color: #ffcc00;" | II: List the template at TfD. |
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Barely in use, and redundant with [[Template:Protected]] and [[Template:Tfd]] respectively. The creator believes in smaller versions of existing templates. That may or may not be a good idea, but it should be discussed (for instance here, or on the village pump) before xe unilaterally forks off new templates. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 19:01, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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| style="padding: 0.75em;" | {{Clickable button|Edit today's TfD log|url={{fullurl:Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{CURRENTYEAR}} {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}|action=edit§ion=1}}|class=mw-ui-progressive}} and paste the following text '''to the top of the list''': |
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* For deletion: {{Tlxs|Tfd2|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the template should be deleted.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}} |
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==== [[Template:Pnpov-d]] ==== |
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* For merging: {{Tlxs|Tfm2|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|other template's name}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the templates should be merged.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}} |
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Redundant with [[Template:TotallyDisputed]]. Creator believes "smaller is better" and made this rather than gain |
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consensus to change the established template. As an aside, the creator [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Pnpov-d&diff=next&oldid=13587286 reverted] my redirect and then [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=protect&user=Stevertigo&page=&limit=500&offset=0 protected] it, so that's why no TFD notice is on it yet. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 02:59, 2005 May 12 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. I don't think it's a good idea to have multiple, nonstandard versions of the 'official' cleanup templates. For what it's worth, I ''do'' think there's somthing to be said for the slimmer format, but a modified template should be discussed at [[Template talk:TotallyDisputed]](I also like the second variant of TotallyDisputed suggested on that page). --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] <small>([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/TenOfAllTrades|contrib]])</small> 12:41, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', it ''is'' redundant, and for tricks like 'what links here' it is beneficial to have a single template for such disputes. Also, I think 'totally disputed' is not trivial, so deserves a bright red blinking screen-filling box. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 13:43, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Redundant. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></sup> 18:48, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' Wikibureaucracy appears to be strong in this camp. Nuf said. See the Choices entry on [[WP:TA]] for more. -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 19:24, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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If the template has had previous TfDs, you can add {{tlx|Oldtfdlist|{{var|{{Gray|previous TfD without brackets}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|result of previous TfD}}}}}} directly after the {{para|text}} before the why (or alternatively, after the <code>}}</code> of the <code>Tfd2/Catfd2</code>). |
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==== [[Template:Infobox pope/dead]] ==== |
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This is a holdover from an odd bit of formatting used in [[Template:Infobox Pope]] to distinguish between living and dead popes (hiding the death information in living ones). Since this is likely only ever going to be one living pope at any one time, this is unnecessary and we can handle [[Pope Benedict XVI]] as an exception. This makes the template easier to implement, and saves a few bits and some processing power. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 02:41, 2005 May 12 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. Templates are more elegant than special-case hacks, and processing power is cheap. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 02:53, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 02:59, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', useless. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 09:05, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', this is a useful technique: when editing the infobox, uniformity of the resulting lay-out (apart from the lines about the death) for the current pope and the former ones is maintained. This is not the case if two different infobox templates are used, or if for the current pope no template is used.--[[User:Patrick|Patrick]] 15:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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Use an edit summary such as <br /><code>Adding <nowiki>[[</nowiki>Template:{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}<nowiki>]]</nowiki></code>. |
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=== May 11 === |
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==== [[Template:Comicbookpub-stub]] ==== |
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'''Multiple templates:''' If this is a deletion proposal involving multiple templates, use the following: |
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Stub category contained only four stubs, with no potential to grow. Stubs resorted into [[:Category:Comics Stubs]], [[:Category:Comic Book Publisher stubs|equivalent category]] also on [[WP:CFD]] - [[User:SoM|SoM]] 18:34, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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{{block indent| {{Tlxs|Tfd2|{{var|{{Gray|template name 1}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|template name 2 ...}}}}|title{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|meaningful discussion title}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the templates should be deleted.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}}} |
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*'''Keep and NOOB''' -- this is within the domain of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting]]. This WikiProject was established to vet stubs and we should let them do it. They don't need to ask for our help or permission. Any user who wishes to comment on this should do so at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting]]. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 23:55, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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** Stop disrupting this page with this "NOOB" nonsense. Template deletion is the scope of this page. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 02:14, 2005 May 12 (UTC) |
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**If and when sfd is up and running, what Xiong says will be true. For now, though WP:WSS can only advise on what we think should be deleted. Things are debated at WP:WSS but then (if the project thinks deletion should be undertaken) they must be sent here for vote, so yes, tfd's permission is still needed. (oh, and '''delete''') [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?</small>''</font>]] 06:04, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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You can add up to 50 template names (separated by vertical bar characters <code>|</code> ). Make sure to include the same meaningful discussion title that you chose before in Step 1. |
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*'''Delete''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 02:14, 2005 May 12 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' Does not meet the [[WP:WSS|Stub-sorting WikiProject]] criteria for creation or keeping. A quick check at [[:Category:Comics stubs]] shows that there are very few Comic Book publishers among the ~450 articles in the category. (BTW: The # of articles in the category should shrink considerably if appropriate articles were retagged with [[Template:Marvel-Comics-stub|Marvel]] and [[Template:DC-Comics-stub|DC comic-stubs]].) [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 04:47, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', very much our business, and no longer a useful template per WPSS. Xiong should stop turning Wikipedia into a bureaucracy. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 09:05, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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If this is a merger proposal involving more than two templates, use the following: |
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==== [[Template:Tfdnotice]] ==== |
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A template designed to post notices on people's pages about templates being nominated for deletion on this page - created by someone who believes there is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stevertigo&diff=prev&oldid=13551265 "''extreme''"] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Firebug&diff=next&oldid=13550766 "''rabid''"] deletionism on WP:TFD. Misuse of the [[Wikipedia:Template namespace|Template namespace]]. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 15:01, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' as overkill. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 15:17, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''', and we really ought to have a policy against vote stacking. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 15:18, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', seems convenient. [[User:Kappa|Kappa]] 15:19, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', useful template. There's nothing wrong with letting people know a vote is taking place. Nor is there any reason for the Template namespace to be so jealously guarded. If multiple Wikipedians could find a template useful, it should be retained. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 19:40, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment'''. Seems harmless, but is probably unnecessary. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] <small>([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/TenOfAllTrades|contrib]])</small> 22:05, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''' (Disclosure: I am the creator.) -- I find it interesting that a template whose purpose it is to call attention to ''this'' process is itself attacked ''here''. The most effective defense of this process' legitimacy is widespread use of {{[[template:tfdnotice|tfdnotice]]}}. Have we something to hide? — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 23:37, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* Delete. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 00:09, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep'''. Template creators should be notified when their templates are nominated at TFD, as a common courtesy if not by policy. It is helpful to have a template that facilitates that. (And any affected WikiProjects, etc. should be notified as well.) [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 03:23, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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** Note that if the creator still cares about the template, he would have it on his watchlist. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 09:05, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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***Even with the template in their [[Wikipedia:watchlist|watchlist]], the template creator might miss the placement of the [[template:tfd|TFD notice]], either because there were more edits after the placement, or the person who added the TFD notice may have forgotten to fill out the [[Wikipedia:edit summary|edit summary]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:11, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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****Okay, that's true. However, while notifying the template's creator would be the polite thing to do, the existence of this template in no way guarantees that or even makes it likely. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 13:45, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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{{block indent| {{Tlxs|Tfm2|{{var|{{Gray|template name 1}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|template name 2 ...}}}}|with{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|main template (optional)}}}}|title{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|meaningful discussion title}}}}|text{{=}}{{var|{{Gray|Why you think the templates should be merged.}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>}}}} |
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====[[:Template:Nu]]==== |
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This template exists solely to add an image to [[:Category:Images containing nudity]], making it completely pointless. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] 09:22, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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You can add up to 50 template names (separated by vertical bar characters <code>|</code> ), plus one more in {{para|with}}. {{para|with}} does not need to be used, but should be the template that you want the other templates to be merged into. Make sure to include the same meaningful discussion title that you chose before in Step 1. |
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*'''Keep'''. I do not mind if for whatever reason you would like to change the template tags to category tags, but since <nowiki>{{nu}}</nowiki> is shorter, keep the template to have this as a convenient alternative when people place new tags, until a more important need arises to use this particular template name for a different purpose.--[[User:Patrick|Patrick]] 23:59, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*Delete; no need for this template any more than templates for other categories. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 02:28, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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'''Related categories:''' If this is a deletion proposal involving a template and a category populated solely by templates, add this code in the {{para|text}} field of the <code>Tfd2</code> template but before the text of your rationale: |
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==== [[:Template:Cfd-howto]]==== |
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{{block indent| {{Tlxs|Catfd2|{{var|{{Gray|category name}}}}}}}} |
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This template was only used in the [[WP:CFD]] page. Since that page has recently been restructured with subpages, the Howto template has been SUBST'ed into there to ease server load. Thus, there is no further need of the separate template. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 08:38, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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|- id="Step III" |
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! scope="row" style="background-color: orange" | III: Notify users. |
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| style="padding: 0.5em;" | Please notify the creator of the template nominated (as well as the creator of the target template, if proposing a merger). It is helpful to also notify the main contributors of the template that you are nominating. To find them, look in the [[Help:Page history|page history]] or [[Help:Talk page|talk page]] of the template. Then, add one of the following: |
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* For deletion: {{Tlxs|Tfd notice|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> |
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* '''Keep and NOOB''' -- This template is used by the folks at CfD; it never appears outside of that process. They should have the final say over it, and we should stay out of their business. Suggest you bring it up, if you like, ''at'' CfD -- perhaps on [[Wikipedia Talk:Categories for deletion]]. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:06, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* For merging: {{Tlxs|Tfm notice|{{var|{{Gray|template name}}}}|{{var|{{Gray|other template's name}}}}}} <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> |
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**I '''am''' one of the folks at CfD. A template of which only one instance will ever be used is not necessarily useful. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 10:37, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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**What's a ''NOOB''...or am I one for asking? --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] <small>([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/TenOfAllTrades|contrib]])</small> 12:57, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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***"None Of Our Business", which is plainly wrong since it's in template namespace and therefore may be put on TFD. If Xiong thinks it isn't his business, he shouldn't vote on it. Other people can decide for themselves whether or not it is their business. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 13:47, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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**** Ah. Well, since there's now a notice on the WP:CFD Talk page, and someone has proposed deletion of the template in question, and this page ''is'' Templates for deletion...is it now our business? --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] <small>([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/TenOfAllTrades|contrib]])</small> 23:06, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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***** No, it is not now our business. The good people at CfD are empowered to deal with their own process. We have already established that one XfD process has no jurisdiction over another; the precedent has been set. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 23:48, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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****** How was that established? Are you talking about the [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Templates for deletion|nomination of the TfD page on VfD]]? If so, that was a nomination to delete the entire TfD page without any discussion of policy or a mechanism to replace it. I suggest that basing a NOOB argument on that case would be an apples to oranges comparison. In this case, we seem to be looking at a template whose text is used in only one place—to which it has now been ''subst:''ed. Rather than maintaining two copies of the text (and running the risk that one will diverge from the other and result in future confusion), I would argue it makes sense to clear out the no-longer-needed template. Nobody is suggesting a major policy change on CfD; in fact the removal of the template won't have any effect on CfD whatsoever. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] <small>([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/TenOfAllTrades|contrib]])</small> 01:53, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*******I have a strong feeling that if CFD were to decide they no longer need the template, then Xiong would pop up there and say "Hey, you can't do that, templates may only be deleted on TfD!". [[WP:NOT]] a bureaucracy. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 09:05, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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to the talk pages of the template creator (and the creator of the ''other template'' for a merger) and the talk pages of the main contributors. It is also helpful to make any interested [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory|WikiProjects]] aware of the discussion. To do that, make sure the template's talk page is tagged with the banners of any relevant WikiProjects; please consider notifying any of them that do not use [[Wikipedia:Article alerts|Article alerts]]. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Compact|Deletion sorting lists]] are a possible way of doing that. |
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* '''Delete''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 15:04, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' - Xiong is right, but if its not being used theres no need for it. I think I was the one who did that just because it was a load to deal with - Im not per se "one of them" either. Reintegration is certainly a good idea - its not a question of "deletionism" then, - its reintegrationism where differentiation is not necessary. -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 00:47, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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'''Multiple templates:''' There is no template for notifying an editor about a multiple-template nomination: please write a personal message in these cases. |
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==== [[Template:VFD]] ==== |
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|} |
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<strike>Inappropriate, overused, and oversized for what it means and does. All there needs to be is a category tag in it. Adding a cancerous growth on a template (not to mention chopping it down and removing it from articles before voting: I mean you [[User:Calicocat|CC]]) is just a way of prejudicing the decision in favor of removal by making it as useless and unappealing as possible. -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 02:10, 11 May 2005 (UTC)</strike> |
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* '''Withdrawn''' - Er, I um... meant... TFD not VFD. :\ thats what I get for editing way too late. Apologies to all. -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 00:26, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment'''. [[WP:TFD]] is not [[WP:RFC]]. [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 02:18, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* Don't disrupt Wikipedia (yes, adding spurious and trollish nominations to TFD counts as disruption) to illustrate a point. This is "templates for deletion", not "templates for improvement". {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 02:20, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* I'm with JRM and Rdsmith on this one. Interpret that as keep, if needed. [[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] [[User_talk:Mackensen|(talk)]] 02:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* I know VfD can be frustrating, but the VfD is the best thing we got atm. (aside from quick del. ;) ) --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 02:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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** '''Comment''' "best thing we got atm" - this implies there should/could be some improvement. "this is not templates for improvement" - what is? Where is this templates for improvement office you say my post should be at? "trollish nominations" - FY-INAT, thanks. See [[Wikipedia:Huge message boxes]] for "trolling" -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 02:34, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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**: Let's see. [[Template talk:Vfd]], [[Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion]], [[Wikipedia:Village pump]], [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment]], [[m:IRC|the IRC channel]] and probably half a dozen places more I haven't thought of. ''Don't put things up for deletion unless you want them deleted''. I know many people think that the best thing you can do is propose the most extreme measure as to provoke the most extreme reaction, but I happen to disagree. [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 02:40, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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**: Nearly forgot: there's always [[WP:BB|being bold]]. ''That's'' sure to get a reaction too. [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 02:40, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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**::There is also the recently created, but currently participantless [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Templates]], which could (should?) become a good forum for handling some template issues be handled here at TFD. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:06, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*** By BB you mean 'edit it [my]self?' Thats certainly a good idea. I do agree that TFD (like other VFD) shouldnt get abused with inappropriate listings, but I respectfully disagree that with the numbnut assertion that I was just trying to make a point. Instead of passing the buck off to other venues, I had thought it would be a good idea to start the process of trimming down the template here, by consulting people - admittedly not to "delete it," per se but neither to simply make a point either. I will start work on it now, as you suggest. Regards,-[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 09:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep, of course''' - [[WP:POINT]], since this is [[User:Stevertigo]] "getting back" for a number of his template creations being TFD'd on May 10. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 02:37, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - [[WP:POINT]]. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 04:11, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', of course. [[WP:POINT]]. The current large amount of text is as a result of newbies complaining that the original vfd template wasn't conspicuous enough. [[User:RickK|Rick]][[User talk:RickK|K]] 05:33, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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** In fact it used to be much larger (cf. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Vfd&oldid=10531394]), and has been trimmed a great deal in recent months. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 21:11, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. I don't ''like'' the template much, and I didn't like it when I saw this tag pop up on the first article I created as an anon. But we must have a visible tag to warn users that an article may be deleted in a few days. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] 07:12, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', [[WP:POINT]]. But it may need yet another rewording. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 08:00, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' or, at worst, '''rewrite''' so as to be unobtrusive and ''not'' prejudgemental. If there is difficulty getting enough attention before debate ends, perhaps the period of debate should be extended, or concerned parties directly notified -- but this is not within our purview. Meanwhile, less obtrusive, less judgemental. (And yes, this ''is'' the only Templates for Improvement bureau -- badly named and hastily operated.) — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:02, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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*: Ha. [[Live free or die|Be bold or die]]! [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 09:06, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' as an integral part of Wikipedia. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] 09:28, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. Definately '''rewrite''' the ugly, bloated template, but keep. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:06, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' I |
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Consider adding any templates you nominate for TfD to your watchlist. This will help ensure that the TfD tag is not removed. |
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==== [[Template:JSTOR]] ==== |
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Template used to generate a link to an external site. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 00:56, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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:: Look, I'm sure the source is legitimate and valid. What I'd like voters to consider is whether Wikipedia should have templates for each and every potential legitimate web source. A better, and already existing, mechanism to use is [[meta:Interwiki map]]. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 02:45, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* I'm inclined to say '''keep'''; JSTOR is a valuable independent resource, and having a quick way to add the links has some value. Whether it should be transcluded or ''subst:''ed into articles is another question. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] <small>([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/TenOfAllTrades|contrib]])</small> 01:23, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''' Academic journal since 1985 - not arxiv, but worthy.-[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 02:14, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* <s>'''Delete'''</s> - Wikipedia users who are not part of an academic institution can't access JSTOR anyway. [[User:FreplySpang|FreplySpang]] [[User talk:FreplySpang|(talk)]] 03:05, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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** '''Abstain''' - I don't like the template, but I see that it is similar to citing a journal article that is not generally available outside academic institutions. [[User:FreplySpang|FreplySpang]] [[User talk:FreplySpang|(talk)]] 14:06, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''' -- It is a little misleading to provide a link to a restricted external site. But I suspect most public and college library users can access it. The concern is ameliorated by the fact that the template links to [[JSTOR]] itself, which explains. It should not be substituted, because all such citations should follow exactly the same format, and that format may be improved in future. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:16, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. Using the interwiki map in that way will make it a lot harder for reusers of our content to have working links. They're more likely to have a copy of a template on the English Wikipedia than a copy of the interwiki map from another site. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 12:08, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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** If we're too terribly concerned about reusers, then consider this: they are more likely to want to have plain article text, so they don't have to maintain the templates for (eventually thousands of) external site links. I know this may be seen as [[slippery slope]] fallacy, but are we going to get in the business of creating and implementing a template for any and all potential external link targets? Why not just post the external link simply, and avoid using a template altogether? -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 14:54, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' - templates obscure things for inexperienced editors. Unless there's a really pressing need to edit something simultaneously on multiple pages, or to generate boilerplate text that appears on thousands of articles, we shouldn't use a template for it. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 15:05, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong delete''': why, apart from the odd notion that most readers will be using a PC in a library with access, would we be linking to a restricted access journal in the first place? [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 15:15, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong keep'''. It is useful to a significant proportion of users. With regard to the [[ideology]] of this whole project, it is worth noting that JSTOR is a charitable organisation that aims to disseminate information, much like the [[Wikimedia Foundation]], but that because of its specialist role in publishing old journal articles they have chosen a different funding route. That funding route does unfortunately penalise individual users, but without it there would simply be no JSTOR. For comparison purposes, the [[Internet Movie Database]] is owned by the <sarcasm> really socially conscious</sarcasm> [[Amazon.com]] and is extensively linked to by [[template:imdb]]. In addition, having a template keeps the external links looking uniform and professional. [[User:Duncharris|Dunc]]|[[User talk:duncharris|☺]] 15:42, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. I access JSTOR from my home computer for free. Anyone can, just get a library card from a participating library. The arguments that this is only usable by a subset of people are incorrect, it is open to anyone, for free, who knows how to get a library card. I believe the [[JSTOR]] article mentions that. Also as an aside, please weigh in on the current dispute on [[Talk:JSTOR]] if the image should be on the left or right side, it would be helpful to have other opinions than just [[User:Duncharris|Dunc]]. [[User:Stbalbach|Stbalbach]] 16:39, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', harmless template, useful. JSTOR is an acceptable way to assist users in finding journals. What is this, the Template Inquisition? [[User:Silsor|silsor]] 13:49, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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**Yes. Templates are a pain in the ass. They're confusing to new editors and they strain the database. When there is a pressing need for standardization (Like the stub templates) or a meaningful level of complexity (Pink box templates, infobox templates) it's one thing. This is not sufficiently complex to make putting <nowiki>{{random stuff}}</nowiki> into an article a meaningful timesaver, and so instead we just leave what is, albeit a small one, a database drain and a confusing chunk of text in an article. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 14:12, May 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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=== After nominating: Notify interested projects and editors === |
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==== [[Template:NNDB]] ==== |
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While it is sufficient to list a template for discussion at TfD ''(see above)'', nominators and others sometimes want to attract more attention from and participation by informed editors. All such efforts must comply with [[WP:CANVASS|Wikipedia's guideline against biased canvassing]]. |
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Orphaned, template used to generate a link to an external site. <s>A better, and already existing, mechanism to use is [[meta:Interwiki map]].</s> It's better just to put the plain link in place, because it's less obscure for new users. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 00:53, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* |
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* |
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To encourage participation by less experienced editors, please avoid Wikipedia-specific abbreviations in the messages you leave about the discussion, link to any relevant policies or guidelines, and link to the TfD discussion page itself. If you are recommending that a template be speedily deleted, please give the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|criterion]] that it meets. |
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==== [[Template:Offensivewebsitewarning]] ==== |
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I don't think Wikipedia needs these disclaimers. Offensive websites really aren't good sources wherein we should be providing external links. When specific pages have been linked, a short notice is appropriate (''Warning: Nudity''), but need not be templatized. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 00:46, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. All of the reasons you have given for deleting this template are personal opinion, nothing more. I'm starting to get the impression that you dislike templates in general and want to do away with them completely. You complained about [[Template:Rotten]] because it was too specific, so I created a more general template to replace it, and now you're trying to justify deleting that too. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 00:54, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. External link warnings shouldn't be boilerplated, and of course "offensive" is relative and usually POV. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 03:03, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', [[WP:NOT]] censored for protection of minors. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 07:59, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete.''' POV. Different areas around the world have different standards. [[User:10qwerty|10qwerty]] 08:01, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete.''' POV. — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 08:45, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete.''' POV. [[WP:NOT]]. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] 09:31, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. "offensive" is POV. [[User:RickK|Rick]][[User talk:RickK|K]] 20:01, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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=== |
====Notifying related WikiProjects==== |
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[[WP:WikiProject|WikiProjects]] are groups of editors that are interested in a particular subject or type of editing. If the article is within the scope of one or more WikiProjects, they may welcome a brief, neutral note on their project's talk page(s) about the TfD. You can use {{Tls|Tfd notice}} for this. |
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====[[Template:El]], [[Template:Bio]], [[Template:Refs]], [[Template:Ov]] ==== |
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These templates consist solely of the text "External links", "Biography", and "References", respectively. I ran across them being ''transcluded'' into several articles as section headings, (and even into the body text of one Talk page). These section headings aren't likely to be modified or updated, so there's no reason to transclude them. These transclusions (some articles even included more than one of the above) are a waste of server resources. Writing out the full form with a proper ''subst:'' is just about as much work as typing the actual words, so I recommend these templates be '''delete'''d. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] <small>([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/TenOfAllTrades|contrib]])</small> 23:40, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' (I added [[Template:Ov]] to this) - Good intentions, but the trade-off of people who forget to subst: this is bad. A newbie seeing these in an article might think it's standard practice, spreading the mistake. Not useful even as a subst: . -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 00:40, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment''' who says that subst: is better practice? That was deprecated for all templates. -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 02:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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**No it wasn't. '''Delete'''. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 07:59, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete all'''. I can see making a template out of an often-used phrase or section of code, but ''one word?''. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 03:05, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete all''' -- a noble effort, very poor execution. They don't even insert the == section head markup. I'll study the issue, and see if I can't crank out a useful standard article skeleton template, akin to {{[[template:doctl|doctl]]}}. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:30, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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Tagging the nominated template's talk page with a relevant Wikiproject's banner will result in the template being listed in that project's ''[[WP:AALERTS|Article Alerts]]'' automatically, if they [[Wikipedia:Article_alerts/Subscription_list|subscribe to the system]]. For instance, tagging a template with {{tl|WikiProject Physics}} will list the discussion in [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics/Article alerts]]. |
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====[[Template:Creationism2]]==== |
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This is a duplicate template of [[Template:Creationism]]. [[User:Joshuaschroeder|Joshuaschroeder]] 18:53, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*I moved this here from its VFD listing. '''No vote'''—[[User:Wahoofive|Wahoofive]] ([[User talk:Wahoofive|talk]]) 21:23, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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====Notifying substantial contributors to the template==== |
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* Well, that fits with the theme of today's nominations... '''Del-ete''' and restore [[Template:Creationism]] to the articles it's been removed from. Creationism articles aren't a [[Wikipedia:Article series|series]], so should use, at most, a footer navigation bar like the original (see [[Wikipedia:Navigational templates]]) . -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 22:58, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|good-faith]] creator and any main contributors of the template and its talkpage that you are nominating for discussion. To find the creator and main contributors, look in the [[Help:Page history|page history]] or [[Help:Talk page|talk page]]. |
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At this point, you've done all you need to do as nominator. Sometime after seven days have passed, someone else will either close the discussion or, where needed, "[[WP:RELIST|relist]]" it for another seven days of discussion. (That "someone" ''may not'' be you, the nominator.) |
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* '''Keep''' -- I'm happy with the new version, though I can't imagine why it was forced to assume a new name. I'd be just as happy to see all creationism-related articles merged into one, tagged on top of page as '''Patent Nonsense''' -- but we have to live in the world with others. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:34, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''' "restore Template:Creationism?" I did not (to my knowledge) remove the other template, nor do I think one is appropriate for all cases - shorter articles should use the horizontal footer. I disagree that the footer is always "better," or that the sidebar is always "better." Redundancy may be an issue for some, but I likewise dont think that critera alone can decide which of the above is better. Is anyone concerned about the content? I noticed some people removed these - maybe the classification as creationism is thought to be inappropriate ISO? -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 09:44, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' This template just looks horrible. Bring back the original. [[User:Bensaccount|Bensaccount]] 15:44, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' This page contains all sorts of factual inaccuracies, and is extremely biased in favor of evolutionism. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that it was written by someone who has not investigated this issue, or who is hostile to what Creationists believe. The Young Earth Creationist page is especially filled with POV. |
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Once you have submitted a template here, no further action is necessary on your part. If the nomination is successful it will be added to the [[WP:TFDH|Holding Cell]] until the change is implemented. There is no requirement for nominators to be part of the implementation process, but they are allowed to if they so wish. |
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==== [[Template:Rotten]] ==== |
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(and redirect at [[Template:Rottendotcomwarning]]) |
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Also, consider adding any templates you nominate to your watchlist. This will help ensure that your nomination tag is not mistakenly or deliberately removed. |
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Hopefully, we don't have too many places where this is needed. As I post this, it is use on one article. We should post any warning message as prose next to the external link, but we don't need a disclaimer template like this. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 18:31, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. I have created a more generic replacement template ([[Template:Offensivewebsitewarning]]) and replaced [[Template:Rotten]] with it at the [[Jose Padilla]] page. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 23:36, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''comment''' the name "offensivewebsitewarning" along with the required listing of the site and other info kinda defeats the purpose of using a template, doesnit? -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 02:50, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 03:07, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete.''' POV. — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 08:48, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Speedy''' -- template orphaned by creator. Of course, now it's too late for the simple solution. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:37, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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=== |
===Twinkle=== |
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[[WP:Twinkle|Twinkle]] is a convenient tool that can perform many of the posting and notification functions automatically, with fewer errors and missed steps than manual editing. To use Twinkle, click its dropdown menu in the toolbar in the top right of the page: TW [[File:OOjs UI icon caretDown.svg|15px|link=]], and then click 'XFD'. |
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A template designed to make "''For X, see [[Y]].''" links at the top of pages. Bad use for a template, and needlessly more complex than simply typing the sentence itself. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 18:23, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. Useful, elegant template. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 23:37, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' more adaptable than template:otheruses, though it should be aligned to the right. -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 02:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''' -- Useful (as long as it is not vandalized). If you don't want to use it, ignore it. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 10:20, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. More flexible and more useful than [[template:otheruses]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:30, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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Note that Twinkle does not notify WikiProjects, although many of them have [[Wikipedia:Article alerts|automatic alerts]]. It is helpful to notify any interested WikiProjects that don't receive alerts, but this has to be done manually. |
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==== [[Template:Answers]] ==== |
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Template to generate link to external search engine. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 18:10, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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* |
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* |
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==Discussion== |
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==== [[Template:Yahoo]] ==== |
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Anyone can join the discussion, but please understand the [[WP:deletion policy|deletion policy]] and explain your reasoning. |
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Template to generate link to external search engine. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 18:10, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. Unless [[User:Stevertigo|Stevertigo]] can explain a good reason for this currently unused template. [Personal opinion: Instead of individual search templates, there probably should be a special page for doing searches on a large number of different internet [[search engine]]s, either like the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Booksources Special Pages ISBN Book sources page] or [[Wikipedia:Book sources]].] [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:56, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* |
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People will sometimes also recommend '''[[Wikipedia:Template substitution|subst]]''' or '''subst and delete''' and similar. This means the template text should be "merged" into the articles that use it. Depending on the content, the template page may then be deleted; if preserving the edit history for attribution is desirable, it may be history-merged with the target article or moved to mainspace and redirected. |
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==== [[Template:Google]] and related ==== |
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(includes [[Template:Google]], [[Template:Googlethis]], [[Template:Googlim]]) |
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Templates are rarely orphaned—that is, removed from pages that transclude them—before the discussion is closed. A list of open discussions eligible for closure can be found at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Old unclosed discussions]]. |
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Template to generate link to external search engine. [[Template:Google]] was [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/October 2004#Deleted|previously deleted]]. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 18:10, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''', possibly protect. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 07:57, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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==Closing discussion== |
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==== [[Template:Current-short]] & [[Template:Currents]] ==== |
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Administrators should read the [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Closing instructions|closing instructions]] before closing a nomination. Note that [[WP:XFDcloser]] semi-automates this process and ensures all of the appropriate steps are taken. |
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Both are wholly redundant with [[Template:Current]], and orphaned. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 17:59, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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* |
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* |
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</div> |
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====[[:Template:Olternateuses]]==== |
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Not used anywhere, appears to be a mis-spelling of {{tl|alternateuses}}:both actually REDIRECT to {{tl|otheruses}}. --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 16:26, May 10, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Speedy delete''' as a "redirect created as the result of a typo during a page move". -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 16:47, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. [[template:GFDL|Few typos]] need to be kept. [[User:Smoddy|Smoddy]] [[User talk:Smoddy|(Rabbit and pork)]] 18:35, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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**I think you made a typo. Surely you meant the misyped {{tl|GDFL}}? :D '''Delete''' btw (when I'm already posting here). --<span style="font-family:monospace"> [[User:Grm_wnr|grm_wnr]] </span>[[User_talk:Grm_wnr|<span style="border:1px solid;color:black;font-size:9px;padding:2px 1px 0px 1px">Esc</span>]] 16:16, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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***Argh. [[User:Smoddy|Smoddy]] [[User talk:Smoddy|(Rabbit and pork)]] 16:38, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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== Current discussions == |
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====[[:Template:Substub]]==== |
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{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j }}}} |
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Thanks to the hard work at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting]], there are no longer any substubs, so the category and template can be deprecated. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 14:57, May 10, 2005 (UTC) |
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{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -1 days }}}} |
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* '''Rest in peace''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 16:47, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -2 days }}}} |
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*I find it hard to believe that there are no substubs. I saw one just 5 minutes ago. [[User:BrokenSegue|'''B'''roken]][[User talk:BrokenSegue|'''S'''egue]] 19:15, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -3 days }}}} |
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*Note that the following have been tagged with this template ''today'': [[Analog filter]], [[Forum invasion]], [[Jnes]], [[Doily]], [[Non-linear filter]], [[Lukanka]], [[Kawaks]]. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] 19:39, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -4 days }}}} |
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**Note that all have since been re-tagged with more appropriate stub subcategories. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?</small>''</font>]] 01:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -5 days }}}} |
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***[[Non-linear filter]] was ''created'' with a more appropriate stub tag alongside the substub tag. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] 18:32, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -6 days }}}} |
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**Uncle G -> Yes, but they should have been tagged with <nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki> instead. The two templates serve the same purpose, hence one should go (or be a redir). [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 07:56, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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{{Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/{{ #time: Y F j | -7 days }}}} |
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***I agree that they were wrongly tagged. I was merely noting that a scant 5 hours after your saying that there weren't any articles tagged as substubs, which was true at the time that you wrote it, 7 articles had been tagged. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] 18:32, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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*I think what Radiant means is that all substubs have been categorized as something-else-stubs. I think the template should be '''kept''' because it links to [[Wikipedia:Substub|substub]] which tells people not to make them. [[User:Kappa|Kappa]] 19:41, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. The concept of substubs has been tried and found not to work. The only proper use for this template is for tagging the junk that does not deserve the honor of being called a stub, but does not qualify as a speedy delete canidate. These articles are better handled by the various cleanup templates. --''[[User: Allen3|Allen3]]'' <sup>[[User talk:Allen3|talk]]</sup> 21:01, May 10, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. See my comments at [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2005_May_10#Category:Substubs|the substub category deletion voting]]. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 23:33, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. No longer in much serious use, and redundant since the inception of stub subcategories. The original intention of substub was to mark articles that were too short to stand alone and should have had several thins happen to them (1) vfd; (2) merge; (3) hurried expansion. Now, the same articles are placed in categories where editors who know about such topics can find them more easily (who ever waded through 3000 substubs?). And those editors will know far better than the average Wikipedian whether something should be saved or not - as well as being able to expand those that could. I must say that from a philosophical point of view I like Kappa's argument that {{tl|substub}} should exist to tell people that substubs shouldn't exist, but I still say rest in peace. Given that substubs are simply short stubs, and are being sorted by the same people who sort stubs, '''redirect'''ing to {{tl|stub}} would be a viable alternative. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?</small>''</font>]] 02:29, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*''' Strong Keep''' The concept of a substub is essential to Wikipedia. Substubs are shorter articles which may offer some, if little, information; they can become valuable articles if worked on. I have also noticed some users at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting]] are incorrectly reclassifing substubs as stubs. The abolition of substubs would most likely have a ''negative'' impact on Wikipedia, just as it would if the stub template was abolished. [[User:Tezeti|<span style="background-color: #000000"><FONT COLOR="#00AA00">тə</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00CC00">zє</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00FF00">ті</FONT>]] 01:25, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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**care to explain how? The work that has previously been done by substub is now being done far more effectively by the separate stub subcategories. It is far easier for editors to tell what should be kept and what shouldn't. Before there were, at one point, several thousand substubs languishing bcause no-one had the energy to sort out what should stay and what should go. Now, in the vast majority of cases, those articles are somewhere where specialist editors can assess them readily. As for "incorrectly reclassifing substubs as stubs", many people at WP:WSS do not believe that substubs exist as a separate entity, and that there is no purpose for the separate distinction between a short article fragment and a slightly shorter article fragment. If it had been otherwise, substub would not now be empty. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?</small>''</font>]] 02:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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***'''Comment''' If articles are classified as substubs, editors who wish to expand very short articles can easily identify them. A stub can sometimes be longer than a full paragraph, causing me to believe that these articles should be separated from others consisting of only one sentence. I am a member of WikiProject Stub sorting, however I believe that articles should only be sorted as stubs when they would not fit better under any other category. [[User:Tezeti|<span style="background-color: #000000"><FONT COLOR="#00AA00">тə</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00CC00">zє</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00FF00">ті</FONT>]] 03:20, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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****But most of the things that were in substubs were well over a sentence in length! The last few I've re-sorted from there have, for the most part, been a paragraph in length. And as for "better suiting another category - that's exactly what I explained earlier. They far better suit the subcategories of stub than they do substub. Say, for example, you know a bit about French geography and want to expand some articles. Where would you look first - [[:Category: Substubs]] or [[:Category: France geography stubs]]? Perhaps it would illustrate my point further by saying that of the ten or so substubs that I have re-categorised in the last 24 hours, three ([[Interpellation]], [[The Miracle Maker]], and [[Mount Wuyi]]) have already been expanded further - presumably by the specialist editors working on the stub subcategories they are now in. One of them is no longer a stub, the other two are still short, but better articles than they were. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?</small>''</font>]] 04:34, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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***** Substub Categories would allow for this problem to be fixed, or using multiple templates so an article could both be considered a categorized stub and a substub. Also, making the template into a category could offer another solution. [[User:Tezeti|<span style="background-color: #000000"><FONT COLOR="#00AA00">тə</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00CC00">zє</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00FF00">ті</FONT>]] 22:44, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Strong Keep''' - Consensus in previous TFD was to keep. [[User:Andros 1337|Andros 1337]] 03:09, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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**...which was before the subcategory system was properly set up, and when there were about 3000 substubs. I voted keep at that time, ISTR. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?</small>''</font>]] 04:43, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Redirect''' to [[Template:Stub]], and delete [[:Category:Substubs]]. People still use the template, but the stub sorting project has made it redundant and less than useful. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 03:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' - this template has always been superfluous. --[[User:Yath|Yath]] 04:13, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', putting into specific stub categories is much much more effective. [[User:Bluemoose|Bluemoose]] 09:00, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Useless. Substubs ahould be transwiki'd, merged, deleted or expanded to stubs (if they aren't already stubs). --<span style="font-family:monospace"> [[User:Grm_wnr|grm_wnr]] </span>[[User_talk:Grm_wnr|<span style="border:1px solid;color:black;font-size:9px;padding:2px 1px 0px 1px">Esc</span>]] 09:11, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep and NOOB''' -- this is within the domain of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting]]. We have no business fooling with it. If they wish to delete it, they don't need to ask for our help or permission. Any user who wishes to comment on this should do so at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting]]. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 10:16, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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**If you consider it none of your business, don't vote on it. [[WP:NOT]] a bureaucracy. Also, you are probably unaware that most people voting against it ARE from the WPSS. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 11:11, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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***In practice the level of debate tends to be higher away from the *fD pages, because the *fD frequently pages lack the domain-specific knowledge. I see no problem with the stub sorting projecting figuring out the best use of templates for their needs (whilst remaining in the general guidelines). [[User:Pcb21|Pcb21|]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 11:59, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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****...and this template would never have been brought to tfd without a considerable amount of debate raging backwards and forwards between several WP:WSS talk pages. It is only because the comments by and large favoured deletion of the template that it was ever brought here for vote. Have a look at [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Criteria#Substubs]], for example, or [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Stub_sorting#Substubs_.28encore une fois.29]]. That will give you some idea of the discussions on this subject at WP:WSS - and also of the feeling of at least part of the project on whether substubs should stay or go. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?</small>''</font>]] 06:15, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Very Strong Delete''' (1st choice), or '''Redirect''' (2nd choice). Substubs are an idea whose time has come and gone. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:18, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''' until the project decide what to do with it. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 12:54, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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**The project will decide whether to keep it or delete it ''right here, right now'' (This TfD is linked from the [[WP:WSS]] pages multiple times), so I suggest that if you're indifferent or want to leave the decision up to the project you should change your vote to "undecided". --<span style="font-family:monospace"> [[User:Grm_wnr|grm_wnr]] </span>[[User_talk:Grm_wnr|<span style="border:1px solid;color:black;font-size:9px;padding:2px 1px 0px 1px">Esc</span>]] 13:52, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' as redundant. [[User:Susvolans|Susvolans]] [[User talk:Susvolans|(pigs can fly)]] 14:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. I wonder what will be the faith of the [[Wikipedia:Substub]] |
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*'''Delete'''. [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User_talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 16:51, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Redirect to Stub''' - [[User:SoM|SoM]] 18:09, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' or redirect to {stub} (or {delete} - heh). [[User:Cdc|<small>CDC</small>]] [[User talk:Cdc|<small>(talk)</small>]] 23:51, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Strong Delete'''. I have not seen a single unrefuted argument for substubs, other than that we have a page about them. So far, as strongly as [[User:Tezeti|<span style="background-color: #000000"><FONT COLOR="#00AA00">тə</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00CC00">zє</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00FF00">ті</FONT>]] purports to feel, he has not even provided a reason why his two model cases (on [[Wikipedia_talk:Substub#Abolition_of_substub]]) should be substubs. — [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] [[User_talk:SebastianHelm|(talk)]] 00:16, 2005 May 12 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' I've sorted lots of stubs and substubs; there is a tremendous amount of overlap. It's a distinction without a difference, anything substubs can do stubs can do better. By sorting stubs into categories editors can find articles they have expertise in and expand them. There are no substub categories that offer the same function. If editors don't want to categorize a stub they can still use the generic <nowiki>{{stub}}</nowiki> and someone will sort it, though it's preferable to sort it out of the gate of course. After a transition period while we spread the word and update pages that refer to it, it should be deleted. The substub template is redundant and eliminating it will streamline the process of expanding very short articles. [[User:Rx StrangeLove|Rx StrangeLove]] 01:14, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''': organisation by topic is far more useful than organisation by length. [[User:Steinsky|Joe D]] [[User talk:Steinsky|(t)]] 02:32, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Redundant. Stub categories are much more useful, for all the reasons already stated above. --[[User:TheParanoidOne|TheParanoidOne]] 15:04, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', redundant with <nowiki>{{''stub''}}</nowiki> now that stub categories exist and are in full use. --[[User:Nabla|Nabla]] 15:31, 2005 May 12 (UTC) |
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== Old discussions == |
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====[[:Template:ISBN]]==== |
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{{#invoke:XfD old|transclude}} |
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I don't get the point in this. If you're too lazy to just type the name of a book into Google, why add <nowiki>{{ISBN}}</nowiki> so that everyone can see how lazy you are? I just spotted this in an article and discovered the ISBN in a matter of seconds... — [[User:Timwi|Timwi]] 10:49, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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== Completed discussions == |
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:Heh, but doesn't the "fix it, don't tag it" line of reasoning apply to nearly all editor-oriented templates? [[User:Pcb21|Pcb21|]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 11:01, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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A list of completed discussions that still require action taken on the template(s) — for example, a merge between two infoboxes — can be found at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Holding cell|the "Holding Cell"]]. |
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*'''Delete''', pointless. Lack of ISBNs is not such an urgent problem that it requires a '''big bold notice''' placed in the article. (Really, if the author, title, publisher, place, and date are specified, the ISBN isn't even necessary.) If this isn't deleted, at least keep it on the talk page. —[[User:Mirv|Charles P.]][[User talk:Mirv| <small>(Mirv)</small>]] 15:50, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' Agree with Mirv. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] |
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*Wow. Way OTT. '''Delete'''. [[User:Smoddy|Smoddy]] [[User talk:Smoddy|(Rabbit and pork)]] 18:37, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. Now all we need is <nowiki>{{canbeimproved}}</nowiki>: "This article can be improved in some way. Please do so and remove this message when done". [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 02:35, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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*'''Convert to category''' tagging articles which need ISBNs is not a valueless exercise; perhaps changing the template so it just categorised the article would be less visually intrusive. Some of those articles have hundreds of books in them. [[User:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]] [[User_talk:Josh Parris|✉]] 03:00, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''', it's irritating. It also might encourage the unthinking addition of ISBNs. All too often I see mention of a book that has obviously gone through various editions, and there's a single ISBN for a single, unspecified edition -- mostly likely the one that the writer happened to have in his or hand at the time. But the multieditionality (?) might not be equally obvious to others, who might get the wrong impression that a single edition must be sought. For some of the books listed within [[Nicholson Baker]], I dutifully tried to be more informative; but this was tedious and I gave up without finishing. (Reading the result isn't much fun either.) I don't know what the solution is, but I really don't think that spraying this template on pages is part of it. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] 05:03, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete.''' It's unnecessary in many cases, there's the 'editional problem' and there's the additional problem of books that are out of print, not for sale anyway, or books without potential buyers. I'd leave it to the discretion of the editors to add some ISBN's to common and important books on a subject (not to every reference in the article); we really don't need a template for that. — [[User:Mark Dingemanse|mark]] [[User Talk:Mark Dingemanse|✎]] 07:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' pointless overkill based on a misunderstanding of a booksellers' tool. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 07:27, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' -- If you feel a change is needed, feel free to make it yourself! Wikipedia is a [[wiki]], so anyone (yourself included) can edit any article by following the '''{{MediaWiki:edit}}''' link. You don't even need to [[Special:Userlogin|log in]], although there are several [[Wikipedia:Why create an account?|reasons why you might want to]]. Wikipedia convention is to [[Wikipedia:be bold|be bold]] and not be afraid of making mistakes. If you're not sure how editing works, have a look at [[Wikipedia:how to edit a page|''How to edit a page'']], or try out the [[Wikipedia:Sandbox|Sandbox]] to test your editing skills. [[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|New contributors are always welcome]].. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 10:23, 2005 May 11 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' The value of having the ISBN is questionable. There's a good reason they are not found in most bibliographies: they discriminate too finely between various editions to be useful. I've also seen articles tagged with this that refer to nothing but research papers, which do not have an ISBN. [[User:Joke137|Joke137]] 16:09, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User_talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 16:54, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*Keep. I created this template and have been pleased to see others using it. I have expressed thoughts on which ISBN to use on the template's talk page. [[User:PedanticallySpeaking|PedanticallySpeaking]] 17:35, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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For an index of all old and archived discussions, see [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/Archives]]. |
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=== May 9 === |
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====[[:Template:Islamofascism-stub]]==== |
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More of LevelCheck's disruption. The "as is Allah's will" is particularly offensive. [[User:RickK|Rick]][[User talk:RickK|K]] 23:02, May 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' I had nothing to do with creating this template or adding the statement that RickK finds offensive. I created a redlink to the template, an anonymous user created the template itself, and I later changed the image. That's all. [[User:LevelCheck|LevelCheck]] 23:37, 9 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. This template is clearly just meant to be offensive.--[[User:Pharos|Pharos]] 23:14, 9 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. It could only apply to one article anyway, and that article is not a stub, so it's useless. —[[User:Mirv|Charles P.]][[User talk:Mirv| <small>(Mirv)</small>]] 01:30, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Dammit I wish it was possible to speedy this sort of [[sewage|effluent]]. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?</small>''</font>]] 01:36, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' Definitely a POV template[[User:Yuber|Yuber]]<sup><small><font color="#FF8C00">[[User_talk:Yuber|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 23:28, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete.''' POV. — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 08:49, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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[[Category:Non-talk pages with subpages that are automatically signed]] |
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====[[:Template:VfDx]]==== |
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[[Category:Wikipedia deletion|Templates for discussion]] |
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A special template that indicates how many times an article has earlier been nominated for VfD sounds to me like needless instruction creep. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 10:50, May 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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[[Category:Wikipedia template administration|Templates for discussion]] |
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* I thought so too until I was asked three times within a week for instructions on how to create a second (or third) nomination without screwing up the prior archived discussions. Most times, nominators just blank the prior discussion - creating confusion for everyone. Whenever I discover them, I try to repair the nomination. Preservation of the prior discussions is important. So far, I've resisted forcing my procedure into any of the policy pages because I am also concerned about instruction creep. But making a template available to someone who wants an easy way to repair the nomination seems like a pretty cheap solution. I'd like to argue to '''keep''' the template as a harmless and occasionally helpful variation of an approved version ''if'' someone will step forward and promise to keep it's wording in synch with the main VfD template. [[User:Rossami|Rossami]] [[User talk:Rossami|(talk)]] 13:26, 9 May 2005 (UTC) |
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[[Category:Wikipedia discussion]] |
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**That sounds like a good reason... but given this template won't be widespread in use (there aren't that many articles VfD'd twice), wouldn't it be easier to explain to move-and-refer-to the previous VfD, than to explain to use this template? [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 07:55, May 10, 2005 (UTC) |
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* Sometimes, votes for deletion that occur again on an article that has been nominated before might get jerked up. Therefore, I created a variation of the deletion template to disambiguate that. So '''keep''' it. --[[User:SuperDude115|SuperDude]] 18:22, 9 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* Since {{[[template:vfd|vfd]]}} is ''always'' substitued (or at least should be), it is a simple matter to edit the resulting text to include a number in the linked VFD page. Since it will (almost always) be out of synch with {{[[template:vfd|vfd]]}}, I say '''delete'''. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 00:16, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Most people who are nominating an article for its second (third, fourth) VfD aren't aware of earlier VfDs, and won't know to use this template. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 07:34, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* Delete. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 00:12, 12 May 2005 (UTC) |
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=== May 8 === |
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====[[Template:WH40k-stub]]==== |
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*Extremely narrow stub category, and chronically under-populated. (And I say this having personally doubled its memberhship.) If {{tl|game-stub}} is ''too'' broad, a happy medium can perhaps be created, but surely somewhat broader than this one. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:34, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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**[[Template:Wargame stubs]] or [[Template:Games Workshop stubs]] would be better ideas. '''Delete'''. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 02:07, May 8, 2005 (UTC) |
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***Comment: Look at the software game categories that some of the major computer game websites use. Then you should work with the [[WP:WSS|Stub-sorting WikiProject]] on creating the new stubs. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 03:45, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. [[Wikipedia:fancruft|Stub-cruft]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 03:45, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', Unnecessary. [[User:K1Bond007|K1Bond007]] 05:59, May 8, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', but also '''comment''': although I don't like this stub template much, there are about 30 others which probably warrant being deleted ahead of it. We (WP:WSS) have found over 50 new stub templates so far this month (yes, it's only the 8th) that people outside the project have created - many of them set to cause all sorts of lovely havoc with outr already shaky hierarchical category structure. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 08:39, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' as WP:WSS don't want it. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] 14:27, 9 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' but agree a broader template e.g. [[Template:Games Workshop stubs]] might be useful --[[User:The wub|the wub ]] [[User_talk:The wub|(talk)]] 11:15, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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=== May 6 === |
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==== [[Template:Sig-2004IOEQ]] ==== |
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* I don't object to maudlin panhandling for disaster victims, but (1) not in this way; (2) perhaps not in this project; (3) nobody else has been fool enough to pick up on it; (4) creator may have left the building; and (5) its time has passed. '''Delete.''' — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 01:31, 2005 May 7 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' - here's a better reason... ''never'' use templates/transclusions in signatures. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 01:54, 2005 May 7 (UTC) |
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** Sorry; I did not actually overlook that one; I just forget to put it in before or after all the rest. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 07:29, 2005 May 7 (UTC) |
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* '''Substitute''' and '''delete''', like all other template sigs. Fortunately there's only about 3 pages that this is on. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 10:05, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''', I agree (I am the one who created it.) I have not been around for about a month and a half, and just happened to sign in today. --[[User:Ctrl build|Ctrl build]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ctrl_build|talk]]</sup> [[Image:Columbia_SEAS.GIF|15px|]] 15:32, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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==== [[Template:Ed_Chron]] and [[Template:Ed_Menu]] ==== |
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* Both from the [[Edmeston, New York]] series of subarticles which have since been transwikied, and are no longer in use. [[User:Mindspillage|Mindspillage]] [[User talk:Mindspillage|(spill yours?)]] 00:07, 7 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. No longer used. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 13:04, 7 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. The pink-on-gray is horrible. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 10:11, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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=== May 5 === |
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==== [[Template:Linear algebra]] ==== |
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Very nice template, created at the beginning of 2004. However, since May 2004 we have the categories system which takes care of grouping related items; in particular, we have [[:Category:Linear algebra]] which contains all the articles listed in this template. As such, this template is obsolete, and is just a link farm. I suggest it be deleted. [[User:Oleg Alexandrov|Oleg Alexandrov]] 18:36, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*Note: instructions above (''should not be removed from pages prior to listing'') were not followed. The template can be viewed within any of the articles it references via the article history. -- [[User:Rick Block|Rick Block]] 03:32, 6 May 2005 (UTC) |
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:: Right. I removed the template from all articles before I put it here for deletion. I was not awre of the requirement. Sorry. I also hope that my arguments for removing the template are still valid. [[User:Oleg Alexandrov|Oleg Alexandrov]] 05:49, 6 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', navigational infobox. People from Wikiproject Maths won't be very happy to see this disappear... [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 10:38, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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: I would not be so sure. See discussion on [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics#Template:Calculus -- is that needed?]] about a related template. [[User:Oleg Alexandrov|Oleg Alexandrov]] 19:44, 9 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', offers no meaningful distinction from a category. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 11:10, May 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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==== [[Template:Color dot]] ==== |
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I don't get it. This is linked from nowhere, has no talk page, has 1 contributor, and appears to have no apparant use. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 14:41, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Comment'''. What I'd like to know is, how on Earth did you find this? [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 18:45, 2005 May 5 (UTC) |
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**Trying to answer [[Wikipedia:Wikifun|Wikifun]] question 5. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 10:33, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Hasn't seemed to have been used in over a month. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 22:04, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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**Actually, since August 2004... but it might have, with substitution. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 10:33, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', appears useless [[User:K1Bond007|K1Bond007]] 06:58, May 6, 2005 (UTC) |
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*There are times, looking at some templates, when I ask myself "why would anyone ever have considered that useful?" This is one of those times. '''Delete'''. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 08:08, 6 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' -- or at worst, '''userfy'''. True that nothing appears to link to this template. Perhaps it has never been transcluded. Perhaps its creator invariably substitutes it, in which case its use does no conceivable harm. True it appears useless. I do not understand this template, so I will not be so headstrong as to ''condemn what I do not understand''. The creator's contribs show a history of short periods of intense editing, widely spaced. I am inclined to believe that, as usual, {tfd} tagging has not had its intended effect, and the template's creator has not been noticed of this TfD nomination. I have ''repaired this error'' and commented on user talk. Perhaps when the creator has had a fair opportunity to ''defend his work'', we may wish to revisit this nomination. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:15, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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**Good point. Since I haven't actually voted, I'll say '''userfy'''. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 10:33, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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{{color dot|red}} Amazing! it works: <nowiki>{{color dot|red}}</nowiki>. -- User:Docu |
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*'''Delete''', useless. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 11:08, May 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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==== [[Template:EU 10]] and [[Template:EU coins]] ==== |
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Both are in serious violation of the guideline in [[Wikipedia:Template_namespace]] that templates shouldn't be masquerading as article content. These templates were used to replace long initial paragraphs in a series of articles that should have instead been individualized. The creation and insertion of these specific templates makes said individualization impossible. [[User:Aris Katsaris|Aris Katsaris]] 11:38, May 5, 2005 (UTC) |
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I think these two templates should be treated separately. I agree with Aris on the EU 10 but I'm not sure about EU coins. [[User:Parmaestro|Parmaestro]] 11:44, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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EU 10 template is no longer in use. [[User:Parmaestro|Parmaestro]] 12:25, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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'''Moved discussion from [[User_talk:Aris Katsaris]]''' |
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As I usually agree with almost all your decisions? I'm curious about your opinion of template use. I don't find it particularly hard to edit templates. It seems to me that when you have a dozen or so articles with identical text and especially where this text will be needed to edited in the future because of upcoming changes that it makes sense to have one template that can be edited/updated/corrected as necessary rather than making the identical edits/corrections/updates to a dozen or more texts. Wouldn't you agree ? [[User:Parmaestro|Parmaestro]] 11:36, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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: Templates are usually good to use, but always in places where the text will *necessarily* be identical. Where it is *good* that it should be identical. This case however is different -- the initial paragraphs of each article should be individual to that article, and if anything these templates worsen and make permanent what was already a not-very-nice redundancy and repetition. Moreover large templates must make themselves obvious as templates: As [[Wikipedia:Template_namespace]] says: "Templates should not masquerade as article content in the main article namespace". [[User:Aris Katsaris|Aris Katsaris]] 11:42, May 5, 2005 (UTC) |
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::We seem to be in agreement than about te use of templates. I completely agree with you about the EU-10 template. The only apparent difference we might have is in the application to this specific series of articles. The initial paragraphs in these articles all include an introduction about the euro before discussing the items that specific to the article. Should those introductary paragraphs be deleted and just start with those items that are individual to tha article ? If not and if we are still going to include the same introductory paragraphs, we'd be better off with the template. Or maybe you have a better solution than these two ideas. |
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::: Since I added the templates to [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion]] it'd be better if we took the discussion there, if you will. Feel free to move both my comments and yours there, if you want to, or I can do it, if you have no objections. I think that the introductory paragraphs should be as small as possible, and the relevant information in them (and part of it *is* relevant, e.g. when talking about the other side that is in common) perhaps combined with the rest of the text. Turning it into a template makes this introduction permanent however in a way that I don't think it should be made. Moreover, the specific content of the template was itself lacking, as it actually *enlarged* the repeated non-specific information in them, e.g. by adding mention of the circulation dates that hadn't existed formerly. The content of the templates ended up speaking about the whole of the Eurozone, even adding mention about Kosovo or Montenegro!! Egads. But as I said it's more than the specific content that bothered me, it was the nature of the templates themselves. That's why I didn't just edit them but tfd them instead. [[User:Aris Katsaris|Aris Katsaris]] 12:09, May 5, 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: I agree with what you are saying. I've already replaced the template with text for EU 10. This template is not in use anywhere now. Although I agree with you that one is not interested in Andorra when reading an article about Belgian coins, I think it is germane to talk about where the euro is a currency which is why the article starts out with saying that it used in the twelve Eurozone member states. I think it's particluarly relevant when there are euro coins from the Vatican, San Marino and Monaco. I agree with you that introductory paragraph should be as short as possible. Are you saying that even if the text is identical, it's better not to use a template even though it means that all the articles would have to be edited separately? [[User:Parmaestro|Parmaestro]] 12:20, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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::::: It's a judgement call which I'm afraid I don't have the time to analyze much further right this moment. I'm moving this discussion to the relevant section of Templates for deletion, so that others can enter the argument also. Please add further comments there. [[User:Aris Katsaris|Aris Katsaris]] 12:34, May 5, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''' -- however, my vote is ''not'' an endorsement of this template. The template should be '''kept temporarily''' while larger issues are resolved, then '''deleted'''. Templates should ''not'' generally contain boilerplate article content, for the reason that articles themselves should not generally contain duplicate content ''at all''. The mere existence of this template calls into question the entire series of repetitive articles which include it -- all of which, perhaps, should be merged into a single article. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:25, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', that's not what templates are for. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 11:11, May 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' and '''merge''' articles. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 00:31, 10 May 2005 (UTC) |
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=== May 4 === |
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<!-- END OF COMMENT PHASE --> |
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<div class="boilerplate metadata" id="Old Business" style="{{divstyleamber}}"><center ><b >Old Business</b ></center >Everything from here on down is old business; the current 5-day review period has ended. Everything from this point on should be dealt with and removed from the workflow. Move ''this'' marker up as time passes.</div > |
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==== [[Template:PD-Germany]] ==== |
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The text is wrong, or at least very very misleading. The law cited applies to nearly none of the pictures suitable for an encyclopedia (it's for the likes of passport photographs or maybe a few holiday snapshots). See the [[Template talk:PD-Germany|template discussion page]]. --[[User:AndreasPraefcke|AndreasPraefcke]] 17:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC) (I have editited your nomination to conform to en:Wikipedia:TfD standards. --Xiong.) |
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* '''Delete''' -- Wikipedia is not local. It is unclear to me that a photograph, say, taken within the national borders of Germany is protected merely by German copyright law -- or, for that matter, that a photograph taken within US borders is protected by American copyright law only. The entire area of copyright law is a morass and its application to a website hosted in the State of Florida yet used throughout the world ''not'' a matter which ''anyone'' is qualified to address -- the law simply is not settled, and may not be for many many years. For now, I rather suspect, any assertion of {{[[template:PD|PD]]}} is either sufficient -- or not. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:40, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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:::::for comparison: |
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{{PD-Germany}} |
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{{PD}} |
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=== May 3 === |
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==== [[Template:Kings and Dukes of Poland]], [[Template:Presidents of Poland]], [[Template:Prime Ministers of Poland]], and all other Polish officeholder-related templates==== |
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These templates are pointless and unsightly. They should be replaced with succession boxes, list articles, and categories. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 20:24, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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:What are ''"all other Polish officeholder-related templates"'', please ? Could you also be more specific about ''"pointless"'' and ''"unsightly"''. Are these just your personal opinions or based on any firm argumentation ? |
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::There's a ton of other ones, but they're hard to find - just about any notable Polish office has one, though. As to pointless - current policy suggests that for lists as long as, say, the one for Kings and Dukes of Poland, a succession box, rather than a series template, should be used. As for unsightly, they are especially unsightly in a) articles where most of the article is the template (of which there are several); and b) articles where the person has three or four such templates to their name. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 20:24, 4 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - useful and nice-looking. Also, could you be so kind as to list the "other Polish officeholder-related templates" here? If we are to vote on their future we should at least be informed of their names. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 07:16, May 4, 2005 (UTC) |
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*:I'm not sure what they all are, but there are a ton of them - foreign ministers, heads of the Communist party, communist period heads of state, various offices in the PLC...I just don't know what all the names are. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 20:24, 4 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - I find the templates useful and placing a monarch/president article in a wider context. [[User:Wojsyl|Wojsyl]] 08:25, 4 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. While the templated do stand out in the small, stubbish articles, they are perfectly fitting to the larger articles, and eventually all of the relevant articles will be large, FA-quality. Personally I find them more useful then the primitive and rather ugly succession box. For a compromise, they may be split into smaller ones - for example, kings could be split into Piast, Jagiellon and election era, thus making the template smaller. And yes, do list the other templates you are reffering to. I see no problem in having everything - template, list and category (succession is made unecessary by the template). I prefer the template. Somebody may prefer the list or category. Why should we deny one person his favourite method of navigating? --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]] 10:55, 4 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. These are enormous and easily replaced by categories. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 02:16, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep'''--[[User:Witkacy|Witkacy]] 21:59, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. A textbook example of the inappropriate use of templates. [[User:Proteus|Proteus]] [[User_talk:Proteus|(Talk)]] 22:06, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* As much as I hate to say it, this '''nomination is not in order'''. Every such template must be referenced; we can have no "un-named co-conspirators", no blanket indictments. Such would open a door to evil abuses. |
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: That said, these are seminal Polish-steam-locomotive-engineer-family-tree templates, and I will entertain all such nominations favorably. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:45, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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==== [[Template:Twotalk]] ==== |
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Made to advertise a dispute which only exists in the mind of its creator ([[User:Xiong]]). We have no on-going need for one-shot templates. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 19:14, 2005 May 3 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. Creator seems to have missed the point of [[Template:Twoversions]] entirely. And aren't we already voting on this [[#Template:POV Fork|below]]? —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 00:59, May 4, 2005 (UTC) |
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**Not ''voting'' but ''commenting'': {{tl|twoversions}} is used when two versions of '''the same page''' are "in competition", whereas {{tl|twotalk}} (the name of which frankly sucks rocks but that's another argument :-) is about two '''separate pages''' which are "in competition", a situation not unlikely to occur again in the ongoing development of policy. HTH HAND --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 09:00, May 4, 2005 (UTC) |
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***Yes, exactly. Note the link to [[Wikipedia:Two versions]] that the creator blindly cut and pasted. —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 10:27, May 4, 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: I take exception to the derogatory adverb. I modeled this template on [[Template:Twoversions]] with my eyes wide open. I preserved the link to an existing policy candidate page. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 03:20, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', could be a useful template. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 05:33, 4 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete.''' {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 02:18, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''' or better yet, '''excuse from this forum'''. I believe we have established that VfD is not the proper forum for discussion of policy; only for its implementation. By the same token, TfD is not the proper place to discuss policy matters. To the extent that this nomination is about the ''use'' of the template, therefore, TfD has no jurisdiction. To the extent that the template is poorly constructed, however, we may all contribute improvement. It is a violation of the collaborative wiki spirit of this project to dismiss contributions out of hand, rather than attempt to improve them. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 03:20, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', if there are two versions of a policy proposal they should be listed on the same page for easier discussion. In fact there are often several (up to a dozen) versions of such. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 11:09, May 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' - use {{tl|twoversions}}. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 12:24, 9 May 2005 (UTC) |
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==== [[Template:Alt]] ==== |
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Duplicates function of {{[[template:otheruses|otheruses]]}} & {{[[template:otheruses2|otheruses2]]}}. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 17:12, 2005 May 3 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. Orphaned as well. [[User:Smoddy|Smoddy]] [[User talk:Smoddy|(Rabbit and pork)]] 18:50, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' -- yep, pure redundancy — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:47, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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* |
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* |
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====[[Template:Adultonly]]==== |
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Superfluous, POV. '''delete''' --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 07:32, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Redundant. We have a disclaimer link on every page for this purpose. — [[User:Trilobite|Trilobite]] ([[User_talk:Trilobite|Talk]]) 07:34, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' POV. Redundant with discalimer. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] 08:01, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. "Note: The content of this aritical may not suitable for children's reading"? That's just wrong on so many levels. [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not censored|Won't somebody please think of the readers]]? I'm sure it was a good-faith effort, but it still needs to go. [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 10:51, 2005 May 3 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', for all the usual reasons about POV content tags. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] <small>([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/TenOfAllTrades|contrib]])</small> 11:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. POV. Different areas around the world have different standards. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 21:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*''Another one?'' '''Delete''' for all the [[Wikipedia talk:Risk disclaimer#More disclaimer templates|usual reasons]]. This is getting ridiculous. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 22:09, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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**I have just created [[Wikipedia:Disclaimer templates]] as a place to put all the arguments against these kinds of templates, so we do not have to repeat ourselves all the time. Please go there and take a look. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 23:28, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' – per above/usual reasons. — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 00:22, May 4, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' [[User:Stellertony|Stellertony the Bookcrosser]] 05:04, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*For the reasons given on the talk pages of our ubiquitous disclaimers, '''Delete'''. I also draw your attention to [[DPPP]], where ''yet another disclaimer'' keeps being added. [[User:Uncle G|Uncle G]] 04:02, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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* As I keep saying, you will never eliminate the last remnant of the popular desire to flag some content as unsuitable for a general audience. I sympathize, and vote '''delete''' -- but until you find it in your hearts to compromise ''[[Wikipedia:Content labeling proposal|somewhere]]'', you will fight this battle each week. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:56, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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=== May 2 === |
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==== [[Template:MicrostatesE]] ==== |
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This is a very small navigational template that hasn't been used for a long time. There are already categories for European microstates and microstates in general (should be combined and expanded). There has been discussion on [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countries]] about template clutter. As far as I know, the microstates have little in common and linking them this way is arbitrary. It should be enough to mention in the articles that they are considered [[microstates]] (anyone interested could follow the link). [[User:Wipe|Wipe]] 03:18, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*Not used, not useful with category. [[User:Smoddy|Smoddy]] [[User talk:Smoddy|(Rabbit and pork)]] 18:53, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''' -- to the extent that it is unused, it does no harm; to the extent that it is used, it is useful. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 09:59, 2005 May 6 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Unused, unwanted, unneeded. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 03:51, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' why keep unused templates? --[[User:Ssd|ssd]] 18:42, 8 May 2005 (UTC) |
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==== [[Template:ZIMf]] ==== |
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This template is not in use and identical to [[Template:ZIM]]. [[User:Thuresson|Thuresson]] 01:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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:It is not identical. ZIMf links to the [[Zimbabwe national football team]], ZIM just links to Zimbabwe. These templates are only temporarily orphaned, and will be used in the future for [[football (soccer)]] related articles. -- [[Image:Canada flag_large.png|20px]] [[User:Earl Andrew|Earl Andrew]] - [[User talk:Earl Andrew|talk]] 02:14, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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::Shouldn't there be only one template with the country name as an attribute? (Plus another one for football.) That would of course require harmonizing the flag image naming (or creating redirects) but it would be very useful. [[User:Wipe|Wipe]] 03:54, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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:::What do you mean? These two templates ([[Template:ZIM]] and [[Template:ZIMf]]) have links to 2 different articles. -- [[Image:Canada flag_large.png|20px]] [[User:Earl Andrew|Earl Andrew]] - [[User talk:Earl Andrew|talk]] 05:38, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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::I mean something like this (an example, "Template:Country"):<br> |
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::<code>[[Image:{{{1}}} flag 300.png|20px|{{{1}}}]] [[{{{1}}}]]<code><br> |
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::and this (the other one, "Template:CountryF"):<br> |
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::<code>[[Image:{{{1}}} flag 300.png|20px|{{{1}}}]] [[{{{1}}} national football team|{{{1}}}]]<code><br> |
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::used like this: <nowiki>{{Country|Zimbabwe}}, {{CountryF|Zimbabwe}}</nowiki>. ''Zimbabwe'' could be replaced here with any country. If you had to edit the template, you'd make one edit and all countries would still look consistent.<br> |
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::[[User:Wipe|Wipe]] 06:06, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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:::Well, I'm already almost done with these football templates. Plus I made quite a few for ice hockey as well. ([[Template:CANh]] or [[Template:USAhw]] for example)-- [[Image:Canada flag_large.png|20px]] [[User:Earl Andrew|Earl Andrew]] - [[User talk:Earl Andrew|talk]] 00:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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=== May 1 === |
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==== [[Template:Doom-stub]] ==== |
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Do we really need such a specific category for stub sorting? [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 06:33, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*Many other topics have their own stub category. (e.g. Star Wars stub template). I think we should '''keep''' this one since there are several [[Doom]] stubs in existance right now and some that might be generated in the future. --[[User:SuperDude115|SuperDude]] 06:39, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', for same reasons as SuperDude. [[User:Bloodshedder|Bloodshedder]] 20:20, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''delete''', for much more practical reasons. 1) Never even mentioned on WP:WSS, let alone cleared by the project; 2) unlikely to ever reach viable level; 3) Unneccessary as it is already covered adequately by other stub categories; 4) stub categories are not created based on possible future need, but on current necessity. If a stub category becomes viable in the future, it should eb recreated. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and that goes for the editing side as much as for the articles. As to "many other topics have their own category", that is, to be frank, a ridiculous argument, by which you could eqqually argue that because there is a separate stub for American history, we need a toenails-stub. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 00:42, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' Unless there's likely to be a order of magnitude more of these than at present, I think it's way too narrow, just as Grutness says. What about something slightly more general, like "first person shooter" stubs or such like? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:27, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', because it's too narrow. The computer and videogame stub category should be chopped a little, but by genre, not by game series. [[User:Wipe|Wipe]] 02:28, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' stubcruft. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 02:46, May 2, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' (stubcruft, lol...) -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 05:50, 2005 May 2 (UTC) |
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*This template is '''[[Doom]]ed'''. See comments by Wipe. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 09:30, 2 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete (deorphanize items to cvg-stub)'''. Unless there is a WikiProject that encompasses building the representation of Doom in Wikipedia, we generally don't want to encourage stub-templates as thinly populated as this one is. In the case of WikiProjects, this guideline is set aside because the purpose of the stub is more an aid to WikiProject activities than a general resource for the Wikipedian community at large. [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 23:41, 2005 May 10 (UTC) |
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=== April 30 === |
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==== [[Template:Quotable]]==== |
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This was marked by [[User:Stevertigo|Stevertigo]] for deletion, but was not listed here. I suppose the reasons were both lack of helpfulness and it is not used. --[[User:Dmcdevit|Dmcdevit]] 06:12, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment:''' Stevertigo deleted this template on [[May 1]], but that doesn't give it enough time. I searched for previous nominations in the log, but could not find any (feel free to search yourself, I wouldn't call mine comprehensive). -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 02:26, 4 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*Just to clarify, I'm voting '''delete''' for reasons above. --[[User:Dmcdevit|Dmcdevit]] 02:49, 4 May 2005 (UTC) |
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==== [[Template:gettingbig]] ==== |
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More or less duplicates [[Template:verylarge]]. Do we need both? [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 04:46, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:I believe we should have a policy that allows us to delete any template that invokes the reaction "Yes, thank you for stating the bloody obvious, but if you are not going to do anything about it then neither am I". [[User:Pcb21|Pcb21|]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 16:58, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:: LOL. That would be most of them, really. So let's delete [[Template:Notenglish]], [[Template:Wikify]], [[Template:Confusing]], [[Template:Technical]], etc. :) --[[User:Dmcdevit|Dmcdevit]] 06:47, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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::: '''Support''' that proposed policy -- ''no'' tag should call attention to routine janitorial work that any user can do nearly as quickly as tagging it to be done. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 13:43, 2005 May 1 (UTC) |
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::::Dmc:"Delete these too" LOL. There certainly seems to be an issue related to the proper use of these templates: Certain ones are underused, others are overused, yet others are redundant. Maybe a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Templates]] would be useful for general coordination, as a lot of these are redirect/merge/issues. -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 23:59, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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:I dunno, I think that templates like this are kinda useful. For example, if a page is getting big, one editor himself may not be able to go through and throw out stuff, but a tag like this may be a signal that the maintainers of a list need to set stricter criteria, etc. --[[User:DropDeadGorgias|DropDeadGorgias]] [[User_talk:DropDeadGorgias|(talk)]] 20:45, May 2, 2005 (UTC) |
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::No. If a maintainer sees the template, then they also see the length of the list for themselves. [[User:Pcb21|Pcb21|]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 11:23, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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* Delete. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 02:19, 5 May 2005 (UTC) |
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=== April 29 === |
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==== [[Template:Clist]]==== |
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Not used anywhere, not immediately apparent '''what''' it could be used for. --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 13:21, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Not used. (And I am clueless about what it could be used for.) [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 07:36, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*The template creator is still an active wikipedian. Please ask him what he thought he was doing, and then relist here/keep/speedy as appropriate. [[User:Pcb21|Pcb21|]] [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 17:02, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==== [[Template:Project usage]] ==== |
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Violates [[Wikipedia:Avoid self-references]]; editorial conventions should be collected in a central location, perhaps the MoS. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 02:48, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) (oh, and I vote '''delete'''. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}}) |
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*'''Keep''', as this is something that will be useful to readers. Looking at the uses of it, it's rather useful on [[billion]] and [[natural number]], as NPOV prevents us from saying "this way is better" but we have to choose one or the other. As for [[Date]], I'm not sure if it's useful there. "Avoid self-references" is not policy, only semi-policy, anyway. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 09:48, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', this is useful for readers. It should be used as it is used on [[billion]], where it conveys useful information. I agree with SPUI that its use on [[Date]] is questionable as it doesn't give a concise point of information. It should not refer you to another page. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] 10:29, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Wikipedia isn't about Wikipedia. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 11:22, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Delete''' Clear violation of [[Wikipedia:Avoid self-references]]. Our reusers are not called 'Wikipedia'. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 04:11, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)</s> |
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**This has been fixed by using SITENAME. Unless another reason is given, this vote should not be counted. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 15:30, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' Clear violation of [[Wikipedia:Avoid self-references]]. --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 06:01, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*Delete - concur with Mav and Jiang. [[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 06:21, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC) |
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* <big><font color=red>'''ANNIHILATE!'''</font></big> —{{User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/Sig}} 07:27, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Wrong way of going about it. I'm not going to visit [[billion]] to find out what Wikipedia's conventions on using the word are. If there's unclarity, then explain what you mean every single time you use the word. This is the only feasible way of doing it; we can't demand that readers plow through our MoS to find out. Articles should be as self-explanatory as possible in these matters. [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 13:37, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC) |
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*:Update: but also see the vote below. I'm wavering on this point. [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 14:13, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' -- [[User:Dpark|Dpark]] 21:04, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep; fixed''' -- I've addressed all objections in an overhaul of this template. It no longer refers to Wikipedia, and its documentation specifically forbids linking across namespaces. Additionally, I've visited the 3 pages where it was used. I rephrased its parameter text on [[Billion]] and [[Natural number]], and removed it from [[Date]]. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 14:52, 2005 May 1 (UTC) |
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**Still got that big, flashy and ugly look to it. I also replaced <nowiki>{{SITENAME}}</nowiki> with 'in this encyclopedia' since mirrors that do not use MediaWiki would not be able to deal with that in the intended manor. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 16:32, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 05:47, 2005 May 2 (UTC) |
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====[[Template:Selfref]], [[template:sr]] ==== |
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People seem to think that just because they do it with a template, it's OK to litter the article namespace with wikipedia references. (This is currently linked from articles like [[VFD]], [[CFD]], [[Variable]], [[sandbox]], etc) This was nominated before by netoholic and voted to keep (3-2), but 5 votes is, um, trivial. Self references pollute the database, and we should be purging them, not encouraging them. [[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 02:42, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''', the main reason to avoid self-references is to make it easier for mirrors (as well as for good style, but this would ideally appear either at the top of an article (with the disambig and other notes) or somewhere else where it's not intrusive. This makes it '''easier''' for the mirrors, as they simply blank this one template. "Avoid self-references" is not policy, only semi-policy, anyway. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 09:50, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**And all the other 'one templates' that are also self references that you constantly promote? Your logic would only work if there were just 'one template' to deal with. There are not and ''that'' is an undue burden on our reusers. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 04:22, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep''' the template, although I'm not sure it should be used in all the places it currently is being. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] 10:26, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep'''. For crying out loud, there has to be '''some''' way of recording in an article that the subject of the article is relevant to Wikipedia itself. Take [[ISBN]] for example: at the top of the article you have:<blockquote>{{sr|For information about using ISBNs on Wikipedia, see [[Wikipedia:ISBN]].}}</blockquote>which is informative and unobtrusive. How else should anyone find out about the ISBN feature in Wikipedia? --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 13:21, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC) |
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**Visit the help page. Links to the Wikipedia namespace will likely not work on mirrors and if they do, then those mirrors are not called Wikipedia. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 04:13, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 18:22, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' - Clear violation of [[Wikipedia:Avoid self-references]]. Our reusers are not called 'Wikipedia'. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 04:13, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' Clear violation of [[Wikipedia:Avoid self-references]]. --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 06:02, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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** Seriously, what is that supposed to mean? Avoid self-references is a guideline, not policy. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 07:45, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) ''comment refactored by [[User:Matt Crypto]]''. |
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* <big><font color=red>'''ANNIHILATE!'''</font></big> —{{User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/Sig}} 07:28, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', this is a way to help avoid self-references. --[[User:IMeowbot|iMb]]~[[User talk:IMeowbot|Meow]] 08:12, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''DELETE'''. There is no need for this. <span style="background-color: #FFFF00">All you need to do is replace any use of the term "Wikipedia" (in links or in text) with <big>'''<u><nowiki>{{SITENAME}}</nowiki></u>'''</big></span>, which automatically replaces that variable with the sitename, which in this case is '''Wikipedia''' and will vary for third party sites hosting the content. Problem solved. --[[User:Brian0918|<font color="#000000">brian0918</font>]][[User talk:Brian0918|<font color="#000000">™</font>]] 08:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*:AskFactMasterism is definitely '''not''' what is wanted. --[[User:IMeowbot|iMb]]~[[User talk:IMeowbot|Meow]] 09:50, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Keep.''' — this complements the "no self references" policy for the same goal -- to make life easier for reusers. [[User:Matt Crypto|— Matt <small>Crypto</small>]] 13:38, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Move to talk'''. The usages I've seen were all useful to contributors, not readers. Nobody is going to look up [[capitalization]] to know how Wikipedia does it—if they do, they should be prepared to use the talk page. That said, I'm beginning to think we need a reader version of the MoS. What we have now is prescriptive; we need something descriptive to readers in areas where there might be surprise (capitalization isn't it, but people might like to know why titles are used the way they are used, for example). This reader-oriented MoS can be written as a reference to a collection of articles; it needn't mention "Wikipedia" at all. [[User:JRM|JRM]] · [[User talk:JRM|Talk]] 14:12, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. [[User:Oven Fresh| ✏ <span style="color:#429717;">Oven</span><span style="color:#002bb8;">Fresh</span>]][[User Talk:Oven Fresh|<span style="font-size:120%;padding-left:2px;color:#5a3696;">²</span>]] 19:16, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. As said above: mirrors simply blank this one template.--[[User:Patrick|Patrick]] 12:19, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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**That would only hold water if there were just one of these types of templates. Why should mirrors have to go to that trouble to seek out and blank so many templates? What about mirrors that use an HTML version of our database? Templates don't exist as special pages then - their content is just part of each page they are displayed on. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 16:22, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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***Sr can be changed into selfref, though that is not needed, because if a mirror blanks selfref, sr is also blanked. Perhaps other templates such as stub messages can make use of selfref, so that they are blanked automatically also. Are there mirrors that use an HTML version? Doesn't that mean that they have an edit link, link to the Community portal, etc., even if these do not work?--[[User:Patrick|Patrick]] 22:05, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. The wrong solution to the wrong problem. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]][[User:Xiong/Metatalk|<font color="#009900">*</font>]] 13:51, 2005 May 1 (UTC) |
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*'''move to talk'''[[User:Geni|Geni]] 13:54, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''': a good way to avoid further self references. -- User:Docu |
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*'''Delete''', move helpful links and reference to Talk pages.-- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 05:49, 2005 May 2 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. It serves a useful purpose. -[[User:Willmcw|Willmcw]] 05:16, May 3, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': This template was [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/Not deleted/April 2005#Template:Selfref|previously nominated]], and was kept. Therefore, this template should be given some extra time before a final decision is made. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 02:22, 4 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. It is appropriate in some instances. Remove it from inappropriate instances and there is no problem. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Also note that it is "avoid self references", not "not a single solitary god damn self reference or the whole world will end and mav will weep salty tears". --[[User:Dante Alighieri|Dante Alighieri]] | [[User talk:Dante Alighieri|Talk]] 18:40, May 4, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. As Dante Alighieri notes, the template is fine and has valid uses. Whether or not it is used inappropriately is a different matter. Personally I don't see why we need to pander too much to mirrors, and, like others have said, they can simnply avoid the template. — [[User:Asbestos|Asbestos]] | [[User talk:Asbestos|<FONT COLOR=#808080>Talk</FONT>]] 21:22, 4 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. It got me from [[ISBN]] to [[Wikipedia:ISBN]] as cross-references are supposed to do. Mirrors copy Wikipedia at their own risk anyway (as far as content goes); this is just one more. (Furthermore, if there is a ever a bot-enforceable policy against self-reference, as some want, this will make it practical.) [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 17:49, 6 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - [[User:SoM|SoM]] 22:52, 7 May 2005 (UTC) |
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===April 26=== |
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====[[Template:Footer Movies M. Night Shyamalan]]==== |
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No need for a template that serves the same purpose as [[:Category:M. Night Shyamalan films]] - the chronological order is not particularly important but is available at [[M. Night Shyamalan]] anyway. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 18:16, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. I agree with the rationale presented by the nominator. [[User:Phils|Phils]] 10:20, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - Although I personally don't like this template, I don't see that it violates anything at [[Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes]]. Also see [[template:Kubrick]] and [[template:Alfred Hitchcock's films]] (there may be more). Even without the category, I would expect a reader interested in a particular director's films to follow the link to the director (where I would expect to find a list of his/her films). Perhaps [[template:infobox_movie]] should be expanded to include links to the next/previous films by the same director. -- [[User:Rick Block|Rick Block]] 15:36, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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===April 25=== |
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====[[Template:News-trade]]==== |
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The TFD tag was placed on this template by [[User:Calicocat]] but no entry for it placed on this page. It appears to me that this template is redundant with [[Template:Journalism]] (see also [[WP:CFD#Category:News_trade_or_Category:Journalism]]) and the two should probably be merged, but I am neutral otherwise. [[User:Kelly Martin|Kelly Martin]] 19:34, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC) |
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::I placed the tag and was editing my comments on it, they appear below [[User:Calicocat|Calicocat]] 20:08, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Comments from [[User:Calicocat|Calicocat]] 20:08, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) on [[Template: news-trade]]: |
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*Template is pushing a POV: This template establishes a false impression that an inveted concept, "news trade," is a valid, sound top level heading for inclusion on many or all articles dealing with the subject of Journalism, and perhaps in other articles. This template offers a link to an article, [[news trade]], itself a totally disputed stub. In other words, I'm concerned this template might establish the dubious concept of "news trade" as a credible category within the universe of Journalism articles and perhaps others dealing with [[economics]], etc. |
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*Redundant: [[Template:news-trade]] is redundant with both the category Journalism and an existing template in use, [[Template:Journalism]]. |
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*Corrective Measures Taken: As a corrective measure, I have edited some of the useful links contained in [[Template:news-trade]] into [[Template:journalism]] since some valid items in the former were not contained in the latter. Nothing was removed from [[Template: Journalism]]. (I have some issues with [[Template: Journalism]], but those can be cooperatively worked on at [[Template: Journalism]]'s talk page. |
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*Further discussion: Issues with the article [[news trade]] are being addressed on its talk pages and I have suggested that conversations regarding [[Template:news-trade]] and category: news trade be addressed there as well so as to consolidate the issues with "news trade" as article, category and template into one location. [[User:Calicocat|Calicocat]] 20:40, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' the reasons above are somewhat disingenous, as the discussion continues on the topical pages. But here's the basics: The '''profession''' of Journalism is separate from the '''business ''' of the News Trade. Its that simple. One doesnt think of a daytrader who specializes in pharmaceudical stocks as part of the "medical profession." Likewise the blonde ditz on the celebrity news show is not a journalist. There is of course some overlap, but this is elementary: Set J may have members {A, P, Q, X, D) while set N has {A, P, D, R, T, Z, F}, this doesnt mean that somehow J=N! Thre are enough relevant links for each separate (slightly overlapping) category to justify a split. Finally, I dont see anything controversial about it except that by Calicocat's edits to ''homogenize the two into one,'' he has made the distinctions apparently moot to any superficial judgement. Apparently he thinks that anything in the very broad news trade qualifies as "journalism", and in failing to note this distinction, of course he thinks its unnecessary or even POV. With all due respect, [[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]]|[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stevertigo&action=edit§ion=new add] 01:18, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', [[Template:Journalism]] is far better. Contact me when you need it to be depopulated. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 00:29, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete.''' I see little or no difference between the template for "journalism" and the template for "news trade." "Journalism" is already a category. At least in the United States, "news trade" is not a common phrase. As best as I can tell, [[User:Stevertigo|SV]] appears to reaching for a reason to link journalism with infotainment. That is insufficient reason for a template. Journalism is already part of the "mass media" category. If he wants some intermediary linkage, a "news industry" category would be more appropriate. -[[User:Maureen]] |
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*'''Delete''' The term in common usage for what SV calls, "News Trade" is "News Industry." I've started a stub at [[News industry]], however, in reading his [[news trade]] stub, it seems the larger universe here is [[Media economics]], so I started another stub there. SV is also getting into the universe of media ethics, I've opened a [[Media ethics]] stub. I think SV is taking an admixture of things based on some of his points of view, in and of itself, fine and what is now called the article [[news trade]] might become an excellent editorial or blog entry on the journalism blogs. While I might agree with him on some points, I think having a whole template based on a stub article and placing that all over "Journalism Town" was an error. With the execption of the link to the [[News trade]] article, the template was highly duplicative with [[Template: Journalism]]. I think SV had good intentions, but was just jumping the gun on the template roll out. Whereas [[Template: Journalism]] is established and working well lets stick with that and work more on developing the artciles which interst us. In future, lets try to have more discussions on new templates before rolling them out and plugging them into many articles. I can see where "template vandalism" could be an issue. I do not think that was SV's intent at all in this. [[User:Calicocat|Calicocat]] 19:40, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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** Are you voting twice? -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 00:28, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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***I'd interpret the first 'vote' to be a comment since it doesn't contain the words "delete" or "keep." No matter, I just won't count the first one anyways. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 22:47, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 22:47, 1 May 2005 (UTC) |
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===April 24=== |
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====[[Template:Pieces-solocello-composer]]==== |
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As a result of a VfD listing which I have just closed, the articles [[List of solo cello pieces by composer: J]] etc have been merged into [[List of solo cello pieces]]. This navigation template is now redundant and has been orphaned. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 13:21, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Somebody went to an awful lot of work creating these pages, but then didn't bother to list Brahms, Bach, Prokoffiev, Franck, Chopin, Debussy, Beethoven, and a few other such minor composers of cello works. —[[User:Wahoofive|Wahoofive]] ([[User talk:Wahoofive|Talk]]) 15:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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===April 22=== |
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==== [[Template:Circus-stub]] ==== |
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Not cleared through [[WP:WSS]] first. It has only two articles, and since there are only about a hundred total articles in [[:Category:Circuses]] and all its subcategories, most of which would be better off in a different stub category even if they were stubs, there's no significant potential for growth. (It was also originally categorizing into [[:Category:Stub]]. Eagh.) —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 19:21, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Useless. [[User:Master Thief Garrett|Master Thief Garrett]] 03:01, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' Trivial template, no need to delete it, useful for anyone who wants to improve any reated articles. [[User:Klonimus|Klonimus]] 05:35, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 07:24, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' - useless to stub-sorters and editors alike. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 07:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Weak Keep'''. I ran into several circus stubs today that I was wishing for a stub article, but this template needs to go through the paperwork. [[User:Linuxbeak|Linuxbeak]] 22:57, May 6, 2005 (UTC) |
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**It's ''been'' through the paperwork (over at WP:WSS) - that's why it's been moved here, because it was rejected. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 12:59, 7 May 2005 (UTC) |
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===April 19=== |
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====<s>[[Template:Train-stub]]</s>==== |
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<s>Duplicate of [[Template:Rail-stub]] but without the category. [[User:Slambo|slambo]] 13:27, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)</s> Now a redirect to [[Template:Rail-stub]] [[User:Slambo|slambo]] 20:25, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC) |
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===April 16=== |
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====[[Template:POV Fork]]==== |
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<s>Question usefulness for this template, seem to be an opinion based, or could lead to, use with no explanation of what its placement is for, poss redundant with other templates. Also question on the basis that its creator has only had 19 edits prior to creation of template, of which several were edits claming POV, as well as the proposal for the SamuraiClinton RFA. Smells a bit sockish. --[[User:Boothy443|Boothy443]] | [[User talk:Boothy443|comhrÚ]] 03:17, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)</s> WITHDRAWN |
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*I created this template because POV Fork is a very common reason for articles to be listed on [[WP:VFD]]. I consider [[User:Boothy443]]'s actions to be harassment. He had previously claimed that a legitimate [[WP:RFA]] nomination was "vandalism" because he personally disagreed with it, and engaged in [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attacks]] against me on his [[User_talk:Boothy443|Talk]] page (calling me a "moron" and a "spade"). This nomination ought not be taken seriously because it is the product of personal animosity. As for the claims of sockpuppethood, they are too ludicrous for words. I have edited here for quite some times, and as I have stated to several different users, I chose to register so that I would not be treated as a second-class Wikicitizen. (My original choice for a userid was [[User:AllWikipediansAreEqualButSomeAreMoreEqualThanOthers]], but this was rejected as too long.) [[User:LevelCheck|LevelCheck]] 03:24, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Is this necessary? If an article ''is'' a POV fork, then deal with it. Nominate it for deletion, or merge it back where it should be (or apply the appropriate merge tags so someone else can do it, or start a substantive discussion on the Talk page). If necessary add the appropriate 'disputed' tags. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] | [[User talk:TenOfAllTrades|Talk]] 18:47, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Redirect''' to [[Template:merge]] or '''delete'''. [[User:Pwqn|Pwqn]] 14:39, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' - [[Template:merge]] or [[Template:VfD]] serve just fine. [[User:Cdc|<small>CDC</small>]] [[User talk:Cdc|<small>(talk)</small>]] 00:55, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Superfluous. Forks should simply be marked for speedy and listed on CSD. Although it isn't in the deletion policy, article forks are classed along with vandalism and are '''A Very Bad Thing'''. Listing them on VfD would be granting them more respect than they deserve. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 11:27, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**[[Wikipedia:Proposal to expand WP:CSD/Proposal VII (Article forks)|Article forks resoundingly failed]] to pass the recent [[Wikipedia:proposal to expand WP:CSD|proposal to expand WP:CSD]] with only 7% support. They've got to go to VfD. ('''Delete''', btw.) —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 20:58, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC) |
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**No, I'll continue to speedy them asap, thanks. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 22:55, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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***Man. If I'd known I'd be able to thumb my nose at an overwhelming consensus of well over a hundred users and delete whatever I felt like on my say-so alone, I wouldn't have declined my RFA. See also [[Wikipedia:Vandalism#What vandalism is not]]. —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 23:54, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC) |
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*** If somebody creates several cut-and-paste copies of an article and changes redirects, either you speedy it to reduce the collateral damage or you sit on your thumbs for a week while a VfD gets decided and the versions diverge. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 10:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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=== April 12 === |
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====[[Template:PD-MNGov]]==== |
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(Hope this is the right area to put this in.) Created this template on very mistaken assumptions and am now asking for it to be deleted. [[User:Schissel|Schissel]] : [[User_talk:Schissel|''bowl listen'']] 04:00, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC) |
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:You've come to the right place :) Looks like a speedy delete to me. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 12:22, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:You should [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Template:PD-MNGov retag the affected images] at some point as well. If not PD, what's the license on these? [[User:Grendelkhan|grendel]]|[[User_talk:Grendelkhan|khan]] 20:27, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC) |
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I'll inform the poster(s?) in the next couple of days that I was mistaken about the copyright condition of the image and whether they can verify fair use, otherwise remove the image - perhaps in favor of another. [[User:Schissel|Schissel]] : [[User_talk:Schissel|''bowl listen'']] 03:32, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC) |
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:{{template|PD-CAGov}} will need to go too... [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 07:35, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Actually I think California has released all its stuff to the public domain. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 21:55, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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The link-to list has decreased but is not yet down to zero. *groan* (Should just retag myself where possible, I guess. Especially since there's a whole category whose existence may be predicated on the mistake I made. May not, also, if the person who created it knows something about MN law no one here so far does, but...) [[User:Schissel|Schissel]] : [[User_talk:Schissel|''bowl listen'']] 14:55, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC) |
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::I have contacted the State of Minnesota regarding copyright issues in regards to their site content. I will post what I find as well as fix the articles in question. [[User:Fernkes|Dennis Fernkes]] 00:44, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC) |
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Appreciated. At least one of the affected images was set up by someone who hasn't been on Wikipedia in two months from their contr. page (this would be [[User:JTilly]]) and perhaps should just be deleted at that... [[User:Schissel|Schissel]] : [[User_talk:Schissel|''bowl listen'']] 10:59, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC) |
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:I didn't receive a response from whomever I tried to contact through the State of Minnesota website. But I did talk to someone who controls the portal that the State uses. They told me that there should be no problem using these photos. I also found this statement somewhere in the vastness of the state government website: |
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:: <i>"State agency authored documents are in the public domain.</i> |
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:: <i>Copyright and access restrictions apply."<i> |
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:However, I can't find a suitable tag for this in the current list. I have always found the issue of copyright to be confusing. Therefore, based on what the statement says, I ask someone to tag both JesseVentura.jpg and TimPawlenty.jpg with an appropriate tag. [[User:Fernkes|Dennis Fernkes]] 21:55, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC) |
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Oy. To understate, this could be a whole lot clearer. And thanks for going to all that trouble (and sorry about the delay in my response.) Just wondering what an appropriate tag would be in this case now. Should the category be maintained after all this and all... It's good my head is good at spinning, so to say. [[User:Schissel|Schissel]] : [[User_talk:Schissel|''bowl listen'']] 15:28, May 2, 2005 (UTC) |
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====[[Template:Hasid-stub]]==== |
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:''See related discussions and vote for [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Sefer-stub]] above.'' |
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*'''Delete''': Do we really need this stub if we have the [[Judaism]]-related stub of [[:Template:Judaism-stub]] already? (And remember, we also have the "[[Jewish history]]" stub of [[:Template:JewHist-stub]], the "[[Hebrew Bible]]" stub of [[:Template:HeBible-stub]], and of course the "[[Israel]]" stub of [[:Template:Israel-stub]].) There are NOT enough articles to warrent a new [[Jew]]ish-articles stub at this time I would think, this will only clutter the field and further splinter the [[Judaism]]- and [[Jewish history]]- stubs sections. '''It thus needs to be put on hold for now.''' <s>It also does not seem to be working from a technical point. See [[Satmar (Hasidic dynasty)]].</s> [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 07:12, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', unnecessary. [[User:Grue|Grue]] 07:40, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Judaism stubs are a big mess already - a look at the caveats and provisos at the top of [[:Category:Israel-related stubs]] will tell you that. This one hasn't been approved by [[WP:WSS]] and just further complicates and already complicated set of stub categories. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 12:28, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**Grutness, I take great exception to your critique. The "Judaism" stubs are not "a big mess". There are four of them for good reasons: One for the 3,300+ year-old [[religion]] of [[Judaism]]; one specifically for [[Hebrew Bible]] [[primary source|primary]] [[text]]s; one relating to the modern [[State of Israel]]; and one for the vast subject of [[Jewish history]].[[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 06:46, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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***From a stub-sorter's viewpoint, they take more working out as to what goes where than any other group of stub categories. They don't follow the usual clear cut distinctions that other, more well thought-out stub categories do. They're messy to use from that point of view. The convolutions of these categories are the main reason there isn't a separate Israel-geo-stub (although controversy about the borders was another consideration). Anyway, there aren't four. There's {{tl|Judaism-stub}}, {{tl|JewHist-stub}}, {{tl|Israel-stub}}, {{tl|Sefer-stub}}, {{tl|HeBible-stub}}, and {{tl|Hasid-stub}} - that's six messily tangled categories. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 00:48, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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***Grutness: Well at least I agree with you about one thing, that they need to be controlled, that is why I have proposed this {{tl|Hasid-stub}} and as of 18 April {{tl|Sefer-stub}} (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Sefer-stub]) for deletion. But the other four make sense I do believe, considering that they deal with a three-and-half-thousand-year/s-old subject! [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 09:55, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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****Sounds fine to me - the proliferation and overlap of stub categories is the main problem here. There seemed to be no clear delineation between {{tl|Hasid-stub}}, {{tl|Sefer-stub}} and subjects which would be covered by one of the other stubs. I'd say 99% of the confusion would be reduced by removing these two stubs, (or replacing one of the existing ones with Sefer-stub - see note below). [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 11:46, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Judaism-stub and JewHist-stub are enough. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></sup> 14:14, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''D'''elete hyperstubsorting. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]] | [[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 22:23, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. If this should go, so should [[Template:Sefer-stub]]. [[User:E=MC^2|E=MC^2]] [[User_talk:E=MC^2|T@lk]] 23:44, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. Judaism is such a small religion in terms of adherents (both today and in the past), and while it is quite important historically, this particular branch is a drop in a drop in an ocean.02:20, 3 May 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' I for one think there are a number of articles that center around that subject, and that the stub itself has been put to good usage so far. [[User:SpaceFalcon2001|SF2K1]] 02:26, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' It can be useful for people familiar with the distinctions, who will hopefully be expanding the articles anyway. [[User:Danny|Danny]] 15:26, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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: Question: Did this stub pass the stub creation process? — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]][[Special:Emailuser/Xiong|<font color="#997749">熊</font>]][[User talk:Xiong|talk]] 18:58, 2005 Apr 16 (UTC) |
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::There is no formal stub creation process. Asking at [[WP:WSS]] is highly recommended (to make discussions like this unlikely), but not obligatory. --<span style="font-family:monospace"> [[User:Grm_wnr|grm_wnr]] </span>[[User_talk:Grm_wnr|<span style="border:1px solid;color:black;font-size:9px;padding:2px 1px 0px 1px">Esc</span>]] 02:17, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::And it wasn't even mentioned there. To answer Danny - it may be useful for the editors who know the difference, but it's not the editors who put stubs in separate categories. I doubt if more than a small handful of the stub sorters would know the differences. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 02:19, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' My original reasons for creating the stub was that I realized there were at least 15 Hasidic stub articles. This is not a lot and does not seem to be a good reason. Yet recently users have been writing stubs about Hasidic dynasties. There are over [[List of Hasidic dynasties|200 Hasidic dynasty]] articles that are yet to be written. When it comes the time when there will be so many articles on one subject than the stub will be very usefull. In the mean time we should keep it though, Hasidic articles are written quickly and always start as stubs, not full fledged articles. On the sorting issue. It may be a little annoying for sorting yet I think that the stub template is needed a bit now and will come in very handy on the future. [[User:ChanochGruenman|ChanochGruenman]] 13:51, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**Chanoch, while your heart is in the right place, you absolutely CANNOT say that because down the line there are "200 articles that are yet to be written", that it is therefore a "justification" for creating stubs now , which makes no sense at all. If we indeed one day in the future had that many articles we can begin to think about it. I can tell you now, that I have been the one who entered most of the Judaism/Hebrew Bible/Israel articles into the two largest "Jewish" categories of [[:Category:Jews and Judaism]] and [[:Category:Israel and Zionism]] as well as their sub and sub-sub categories, and I can tell you that on those huge subjects there are about 3,500 articles in total including all stubs. So at this point to start splintering and dividing up a field of relatively few articles will not be of help (as you can see how poor old Grutness is so confused already), and it will surely only confuse a very confusing subject. Unless you do not agree that [[Hasidism]] is part of [[Judaism]]??? So for now, let's keep Hasidic-stub subjects as part of [[Judaism]]-stub or [[Jewish history]]-stub subjects, please. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 10:09, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**I agree. In an attempt to mollify some of the feathers that may have been ruffled by my earlier comments, may I try to explain. The general procedure with stub category creation is to first assay the need for a category based on one of two ideas: (1) there are a large number of extant generic stubs which would qualify for a specific category, or (2) there are too many stubs for an existing category to be viable, and therefore consider reducing it by making a natural subcategory for it. In general, [[WP:WSS]] uses rule of thumb figures of between 60 and 100 existing stubs as a minimum for a new category, and - except in special circumstances - is unlikely to split a category with under about 800 stubs. At all times, attempts are made to have the nw category fit in with the existing scheme, rather than cutting across two or more extant categories. Currently neither Judaism-stub nor JewHist-stub is on more than 200 articles, and, as Chanoch said, there are currently only some 15 stubs which would benefit from the new template. I think it highly unlikely the template would have been agreed to had it been proposed at WP:WSS. Furthermore, it ''does'' create confusion, by cutting across two current stub categories (many articles on Hasidic Judaism also deal with matters linked to Jewish history or Judaism in general - lets face it, the Hasidic/Rabbinical schism - if that's the right terminology for it - was a major event in both Judaism and Jewish history). Having sefer-stub suddenly appear caused enough confusion, without this one appearing as well. As to sefer-stub, I'd be quite happy to see it ''replace'' HeBible-stub, which it largely duplicates. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 11:46, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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***Grutness: There would be a huge problem with having the "Sefer-stub" replace the "HeBible-stub" because the [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]] word [[Sefer]] simply means "book" and so it could also be used to include non-religious and non-Biblical books and it would therefore NOT make any sense to combine the "Hebrew Bible-stub" under the "Sefer-stub", as its present creators have a very ''narrow'' [[Orthodox Judaism]] view of the word ''sefer''. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 06:35, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**Hm. I was thrown off by the wording of the template which seemed to imply it could only be religion-related texts (specifically Judaism-related texts). Would it be better to combine the two into one new template simply for Jewish religious texts? If not, and it is for books in general, then it compounds problems by tanging itself up with book-stub and I would recomment deleting it. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 06:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**It may be an idea because we do have [[:Category:Jewish texts]] that is quite all-inclusive which does have many stub articles of course. Simutaneously, many of them do legitimately fit into the [[:Template:Judaism-stub]] as well. Whereas the Hebrew Bible-stub also functions as an acceptable ''demarcation'' between (1)[[Judaism]]'s one and only [[Hebrew Bible]] -- and -- (2) [[Christianity]]'s name for it of the [[Old Testament]] because of its (Christianity's) [[New Testament]]. It's a bit of a [[minefield]], I must admit. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 09:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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***...which also brings up the problem of whether an article on an Old Testament character (say, [[Shem]]) gets Christianity-stub or HeBible-stub - but that's just adding more confusions. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 10:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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***No the case you mention (of [[Shem]]) is not confusing, because it is a fact of reality that Judaism and Christianity are ENTIRELY different religions, Judaism came first, it is Christianity that adoped some of Judaism's texts and not the other way around (so there will be some similarities because of that), and as long as a link, or category, or stub is working in good faith recognizing the differences between the seperate faiths, then two (i.e. one Judaism-related and one Christianity-related) different Wikipedia links/categories/stubs will always reflect truth and therefore will always be valid. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 07:02, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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'''Delete''' Topic too narrow to be distinguished from existing stubs [[User:DDerby|DDerby]] 06:27, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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=== April 9 === |
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====[[Template:Czechia-geo-stub]]/[[Template:Czech-geo-stub]]==== |
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The former was marked {{tlp|db|replaced by the better [[Template:Czech-geo-stub]]}}. Not a speedy candidate, especially when it's not an orphan. One should be a redirect to the other; no opinion on which to which, though. —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 16:09, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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*Delete. [[User:Starky|Starky]] 16:24, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**It was, by the way, Starky who applied the speedy message, and has in the last hour been going on a "Czechia"-purging rampage, his [[Special:Contributions/Starky|first edits ever]]. —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 17:10, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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***I have not been going through a "Czechia-purging rampage", I was just replacing instances the old template with the newer shorter-named template, which doesn't gratuitously use the neologism "Czechia" for the Czech Republic. [[User:Starky|Starky]] 17:16, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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****It's not a neologism. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 00:43, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*Delete Czechia-geo-stub. "Czechia" is a dubious neologism that should be avoided. [[User:NoPuzzleStranger|NoPuzzleStranger]] 19:03, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*I'm adding [[Template:Czech-geo-stub]] at this point, at least until this mess is straightened out. At the very least, it's a cut and paste move. —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 19:19, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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*Oops - without knowing about this debate, I've just redirected the (incorrect) Czech-geo-stub to CZechia-geo-stub. There was quite a bit of debate about the naming of this stub before its creation, and it was decided that Czechia was a far more acceptable name for it than Czech. '''Delete''' Czech-geo-stub, '''keep''' Czechia-geo-stub, as per WP:WSS. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 22:52, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**Where was this debate? [[User:NoPuzzleStranger|NoPuzzleStranger]] 00:48, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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***IIRC, some of it at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria]] (which is where stub creation debates usually occurs) and some of it on various Usr talk pages. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] |
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****There's nothing about it at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria]], and private discussions don't count. So what would be "incorrect" about Czech-geo-stub? If you want to claim some previous consensus, you will have to document it. [[User:NoPuzzleStranger|NoPuzzleStranger]] 10:55, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*Keep. For me (as a Czech user) is Czechia quite acceptable - also our government officially encourages people to use it. [[User:Miaow Miaow|Miaow Miaow]] 23:49, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. If you take a look at [[:Category:Geography stubs]], you'll see that no other geo-stub category uses the ''adjective'' form of a country name, they all use the ''noun'' form. So if we are to remain consistent, we have to call this Czechia-geo-stub or Czech-Republic-geo-stub, and the former is much less cumbersome. — [[User:Livajo|Ливай]] | [[User talk:Livajo|☺]] 00:00, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' per [[User:Livajo|Ливай]]. When stumbling on pages that need a stub-tag, this is much easier to do if stub-tags are predictable in form. The stub-tag itself doesn't have to be in brilliant prose or use 100% correct terminology, as we can let it display any message we like. / [[User:Tupsharru|Tupsharru]] 11:11, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**Those last two comments are obviously bogus. Either we want to be correct, then it has to be Czech-Republic-geo-stub, or we consider that too cumbersome and divert in some way from the correct form, in which case the most appropriate alternative is to use the adjective, not some controversial and obscure word that is not found in any respectable English dictionary. What kind of argument is it to say we have to use a noun because we use nouns in all other cases, but we ''don't'' have to use the standard name even though we use the standard name in all other cases? And how is "Czechia" predictable? How would anyone predict a word which is used in only 0.2% of all references to the country in Google News? "We can let it display any message we like" - well then, why not Czech-geo-stub? [[User:NoPuzzleStranger|NoPuzzleStranger]] 13:18, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep both''' as long as both add the same stub category and people avoid replacing one with the other, there is no harm having two of them. -- User:Docu |
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*'''Keep'''. And let's finally have the decency to call countries what their governments ask us to call them. As for NoPuzzleStranger's fascinating comment about a "dubious neologism", could he please explain what makes a neologism dubious? As a professional linguist I find that beyond my understanding of how languages work. When a new entity appears, such as a new country, it needs a name, and a neologism is normal and proper. "Czechia" is a neat one, and is no more lumpish than "Slovakia". --[[User:Doric Loon|Doric Loon]] 12:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**The only official name of the country is Czech Republic. It's dubious because it's controversial even in the Czech Republic itself, and it's virtually never used in English. We don't popularize neologisms here, we follow existing common usage. Whether's it's "neat" is therefore irrelevant. [[User:NoPuzzleStranger|NoPuzzleStranger]] 13:18, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*BTW, if you are voting here, you should also make your opinion heard on the talk page of the [[Czech Republic]] article - a vote is going on there about possibly renaming that article [[Czechia]]. |
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**Already did, although that proposal is almost frivolous - there's no chance [[Czech Republic]] will be moved to [[Czechia]]. [[User:NoPuzzleStranger|NoPuzzleStranger]] 13:18, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. Same reason as [[User:Doric Loon|Doric Loon]]. Every other country in Europe has a free-standing name, why not Czechia? Besides, the official name is Česká republika, which only translates to Czech Republic (Okay this justification is entirely contrived, but I've seen worse around these debates). --[[User:Bastique|Bastique]] 20:48, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**Oh, I don't know about that - there's hardly been a rush to change the name of articles about La République Française from [[France]] to [[French Republic]]... [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 09:09, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' As a compromise, couldn't we just use something like CS-geo-stub or CR-geo-stub, like in NI-geo-stub, BiH-geo-stub....?[[User:Lectonar|Lectonar]] 08:54, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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**Or Cz-geo-stub... yes, that would work (though there would still be a problem with category names). [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 07:43, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Please ignore any statements made on this topic by NoPuzzleStranger. He is trying to declare his personal ignorance a rule. Czechia is '''not a neologism''', but a normal word and all relevant English language experts have confirmed that it is the only correct version in the English language. The word has been used since the Middle Ages (it is even written in the St. Vit Cathedral in Prague) as what is called by experts the territorial designation for the Czech territory, and an abrreviated name for the Lands of the Bohemian crown/Czech Republik etc. (just like France, Germany, Slovakia, Poland etc.). It is derived from the Latin Czechia (hence the CZ and CH), just like Moravia or Bohemia. Is is nowadays used in some English encyclopaedias (those with better information), on maps, in the offficial UN country list, by Czech authorities, e.g. in the US government analyses of Czechoslovakia of 19'''87''' (-as a proof) and by all those who have basic information in this field. The English "Czechia" is also prescribed by all Czech regulations and norms regarding geographical names. The word is not really disputed in Czechia itself (the article we have here as a link in Czech Republic is just the author's personal opinion), there are only some people who are used to the older names that were relevant in the 1980s – namely Czechoslovakia and Czech (Socialist) Republic (as a constituent republic of Czechoslovakia – hence the "republic"!). Nevertheless the Czech equivalent exists since the Middle Ages as well, it is in the Dictionary of the Czech language (1978) etc and is used in TV news , newspapers, taught in schools etc.. Even if we admitted that the name was disputed in Czechia itself, the problem in Czech is completely different from other languages – the problem is that in Czech the word for Czechia (Česko) is very similar to the word for Bohemia and at the same time identical with "Czecho-". (which sounds like an "unfinished" Czechoslovakia), but that has nothing to do with English or other languages. In sum, there is absolutely no reason for not using Czechiat, it is even ridiculous and an error not to use it (which is unfortunately the case in most English-language media). [[User:Juro|Juro]] 23:15, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:Please also note that User:Starky, who has voted on this and is outspoken on topics related to Czechia/Czech Republic, seems very likely to be a sockpuppet of NoPuzzleStranger. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 06:40, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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'''Update:''' The two listed templates now both redirect to {{tl|Cz-geo-stub}}. [[User:Grutness| Grutness]]|<sup>[[User_talk:Grutness|hello?]]</sup> [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 04:47, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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====[[Template:University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Basketball Coaches]]==== |
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Revised to simple succession box. [[User:MisfitToys|MisfitToys]] 20:21, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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=== April 7 === |
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====[[Template:2005Calendar]] through [[Template:2024Calendar]]==== |
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Also, [[Template:AprilCalendar2004]] and [[Template:AprilCalendar2005]], and [[Template:AprilCalendar2004Source]] through [[Template:AprilCalendar2025Source]], and the same for every other month. |
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*Deprecated by generic calender templates for both months and years (dependent on the weekday of january 1st and leapness of the year). Well-intended, but unfortunately needless clutter. [[User:Radiant!| ]][[User_talk:Radiant!|Radiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 11:31, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' - needless [[Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates|meta-templates]]. Have the alternate calendars been created yet, for comparison? -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 15:02, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC) |
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** Note, [[Template:AprilCalendar2005]] is still being in use. And they aren't necessarily meta-templates, at least for the ones I created from 2006 to 2025. --[[User:AllyUnion| AllyUnion]] [[User talk:AllyUnion|(talk)]] 08:39, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*** If a template includes a call to another template, it is a meta-template. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 04:29, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC) |
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**** The templates created from January 2006 to December 2025 aren't meta-templates. --[[User:AllyUnion| AllyUnion]] [[User talk:AllyUnion|(talk)]] 22:45, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* Oppose. Netoholic, please really take a look. [[Template:MayCalendar2006Source]] is not a meta-template in any way. It's actual template. --[[User:AllyUnion| AllyUnion]] [[User talk:AllyUnion|(talk)]] 08:58, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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** Templates for ''"Leap year starting on tuesday"'' or ''"30-day month starting on friday"'' (with parametrization for which month and year it is) have the advantage of being reusable for each and every year in the Gregorian calendar, obviating the need for hundreds of templates for each individual month and year therein. [[User:Radiant!| ]][[User_talk:Radiant!|Radiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 09:16, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC) |
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*** Yes, but, there's so much parameter passing for those templates. And people are lazy. Without these templates, any page using a calendar to display the current month must change using the "Leap year starting on Tuesday" or whatever templates. What happens if I want to display only one month and have it change every month? I can't use <nowiki>{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}}</nowiki> anymore. I would have to manually update and figure out which template to use every month. --[[User:AllyUnion| AllyUnion]] [[User talk:AllyUnion|(talk)]] 22:45, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*[[Template:AprilCalendar2004]] etc could easily redirect to [[Template:Year B 4]]. It would be nice if there was an overview page for these templates. -- User:Docu |
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==== [[Template:New TFD]] ==== |
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(and redirect at [[Template:TFDNotice]]) |
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TFD does not make use of this template. It's not common practice to make sections for "keep", "delete" votes. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 07:52, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC) |
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* Nor should it be. Whenever someone "helpfully" refactors a vfd like this, it stops being a discussion and starts turning into a shouting match. There's no reason to suspect things would be any different here. '''Delete'''. —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 07:59, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. I like this (the basic idea, at least). It organises the reasons for and against (and their accompanying votes — but as has been stressed continually, it shouldn't be, and in theory it's not, about the votes) into clear sections. These discussions can turn into shouting matches anyway; I'm not sure why this would accelerate the process. Unlike the Tally Box, it doesn't focus on votes. [[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|<font color="green">Μελ Ετητης</font>)]] 09:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete''' per Korath. Like the Tally Box Pox. [[User:Radiant!| ]][[User_talk:Radiant!|Radiant]][[meta:mergist|_*]] 09:44, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC) |
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* '''Delete'''. Same ambiguity issues here as with tally boxes. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 22:29, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''', it is often helpful to see the votes seperated, especially when people don't '''bold''' their votes. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 14:30, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', per Korath. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 01:23, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete.''' Tally boxes are not encouraged in VfD (from what people have told me) and the format above was taken from places like [[RfC]]. [[User:Zscout370|Zscout370]] 02:36, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* If the point of this template was to redefine the way TFD works - great. I dont see this page as being active enough to warrant such a redesign - yet. '''Archive''' for later -[[User:Stevertigo|SV]]|[[User_talk:Stevertigo|t]] 02:12, 11 May 2005 (UTC) |
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===March 25=== |
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====[[Template:Manga]]==== |
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Category scheme in a box. Very pretty, but it doesn't even have any content specifically related to any given article that it's put on. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 05:04, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC) |
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=====Delete===== |
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*It does not follow the policy for [[Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes#Article series boxes|navigational templates]] because it is more like a combination of TOC templates for the following: [[List of manga]], [[Mangaka]], and [[Manga]]. Secondly, the links for List of manga and List of Manga-ka are in alphabetical order, thus making it redundant to categories. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] 06:08, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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*It's big, awkward, redundant, and not useful. (It was worse when it was vertical.) I agree with mako's albumbox-ish proposal, though. -[[User:Pyrop|℘yrop]] [[User talk:Pyrop|(talk)]] 07:10, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC) |
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* Large and hideous; convert to category. {{User:Rdsmith4/Sig}} 01:12, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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* I've never bothered to click on any of the links, and i doubt many other will. Right now this template is just a deposite of links, no real content. If you were to expand this template, it will take up more space than the contents on many wiki entries on manga/anime. DELETE after there's something better as an replacement. [[User:LegolasGreenleaf|LG-犬夜叉]] 23:38, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC) |
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* Useless. [[User:Ashibaka|Ashibaka]] ([[User talk:Ashibaka|tock]]) 00:35, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*Blatant category. Convert and delete - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 00:57, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*Either a category or a TOC. '''Delete'''. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 22:33, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', this template is larger than many articles. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 17:23, May 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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=====Keep===== |
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*This template has been around for a while. It used to be a vertical box that occupied a sidebar position, like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Manga&oldid=11516400 this]. I modified the box to be horizontal a few months back, envisioning placement at the bottom of the page, as suggested on [[Template_talk:Manga]]. However the change would require going through every page referencing this template and moving the tag to the bottom, so I did not go through with the change, instead leaving the template on the talk page for comment. [[User:Minghong]] decided to implement it yesterday. This is an arduous task, as he has discovered (read the talk if you haven't already). I suspect the user who posted this to vfd viewed a yet unfixed page, which would indeed be aesthetically jarring. However, at the bottom of the page, where it belongs, it serves a navigational purpose. <strike>Keep.</strike> - [[User:Mako098765|mako]] 06:18, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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**After some thought, I've changed my mind. The template is indeed redundant. What we really need is an infobox, like [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albums]], that covers anime and manga. It would link to all the appropriate lists and serve an informational purpose. The proper place to do this is [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga]]. (To those of you wondering about the change from vertical to horizontal: most of the larger nav boxes I've seen occupy the bottom position on the page. I chose not to make the change myself partly because I was waiting for commentary...) - [[User:Mako098765|mako]] 07:03, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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***You may find [[:Template:Infobox Software]], [[:Template:Infobox Company]] and [[:Template:Infobox Movie]] useful. --[[User:Minghong|minghong]] 11:02, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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=====Other===== |
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*I don't know... It might be sufficient to link to the various lists in this template on the articles that use this template, but it is a convenient method of navigation if you want to find another manga series. [[User:JoshG|Josh]] 05:41, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC) |
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*I prefer to use "List of XXX" to do this kind of thing, i.e. [[List of manga]]. This navigation bar, while being improved, is just quite large in size. And many manga are also anime and/or game. So in order to make it complete, we need to create "anime" and "game" navbar as well? The article will be overloaded... P.S. Oh yes, I'm the one who make the change from vertical to horizontal. --[[User:Minghong|minghong]] 07:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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*I would rather see it a bit smaller than having it removed altogether. [[User:Philip Nilsson|Philip Nilsson]] 22:50, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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**Actually, an infobox would be much better. As the articles are now it can take up to 10 seconds to find a single piece of information if it is not written in a standard way in the first paragraph. I do suggest that we keep it until we have something to replace it with though. |
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*I don't understand why the design of this box was changed from that vertical version to an horizontal one. To me, it looks pretty bad the way it is now, while it looked just fine the way it used to be. That's why I vote for it to be reverted to the vertical-oriented style.--[[User:Mackeriv|Kaonashi]] 07:15, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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*I liked it better when it was vertical, too. It certainly took up less space. —[[User:Korath|Korath]] ([[User talk:Korath|Talk]]) 02:26, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Refactor''' -- This clearly fulfills the role of a category more than of a template. I certainly don't support its inclusion on every such page. On the other hand, I think it's well done. It does something I don't think a standard category page does well. Horizontal box is "clean" -- formats properly in extremely narrow window. I say, keep it for now, and figure out how to upgrade a category page to that standard; then replace. Major project; kick it off ''this'' page and look at it in a month or two. — [[User:Xiong|Xiong]] ([[User talk:Xiong|talk]]) 10:04, 2005 Apr 1 (UTC) |
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==Holding Cell== |
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''Move templates'' '''''here''''' ''to prepare to delete'' '''''if''''' ''process guidelines are met.'' |
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===To orphan=== |
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These templates need to be deleted, but may still be in use on some pages. Somebody (it doesn't need to be an admin, anyone can do it) should remove them from pages so that they can be deleted. |
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*[[Template:Hasid-stub]] ('''Note:''' You will have to replace the template with {{tl|Judaism-stub}}, and maybe occasionally {{tl|JewHist-stub}} and {{tl|HeBible-stub}}) |
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====[[Template:Sejm Marshals]]==== |
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* Is this really to be deleted? It has no {TfD] tag, and a large number of pages link to it. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 20:01, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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** There certainly wasn't a consensus to delete, so whoever moved it to the holding cell needs a spanking. I've put the discussion on the template talk page. (The '''Divide''' has been done already) — [[User:MikeX|MikeX]] [[User Talk:MikeX|(talk)]] 20:51, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC) |
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*<s>Since the "divide" in effect created other templates, this one is no longer needed. orphan and delete it.--[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 06:42, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)</s> |
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*actually, the divide has not been done already. it needs to be done. --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 02:25, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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*[[Template:Manga]] |
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===To convert to category=== |
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Templates for which the consensus is that they ought to be converted to categories get put here until the conversion is completed. |
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===Ready to delete=== |
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Templates for which consensus to delete has been reached, have been orphaned, and the discussion moved to the template's Talk page, can be listed here for an admin to delete. |
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===On hold for technical reasons=== |
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This is a temporary subsection needed because of a [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive2#Deletion bugs|bug in the Wikipedia software]]; fully orphaned templates which cannot be deleted because of the bug are collected here. |
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*[[Template:CompactTOC (external links)]] |
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** Clear [[User:BlankVerse|BlankVerse]] 09:46, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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** Has block-compressed versions in history, delete on hold. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 16:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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***There's a [[Template:Pending deletion]] for these. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel]] ("<font color="#ba0000"><u>Sarah</u></font>") 17:38, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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*[[Template:CompactTOC (see also)]] |
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** Also clear, but also on delete hold. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 16:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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*[[Template:CompactTOCallplustwo2]] |
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** Ditto. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 16:14, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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*[[Template:Aboutwikipedia]] |
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** This can't be deleted at present due to a software flaw. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 01:52, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC) |
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** Same block-compressed issue as the ones above. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 02:39, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
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*[[Template:Bookshelf]]- block-compressed revisions. I have rmv'd all linking pages and logged it (preemptively). -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 23:35, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
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*[[Template:Cowstub]], block-compressed da da da. I've subst'd it on to (all?) of the pages it was on, because IIRC it wasn't ever used seriously. It's on a bunch of BJAODN pages, and I think it does belong there, and should be preserved. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 19:35, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
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*[[Template:CompactTOCwithnumbers2]]- has been logged as deleted because the pending deletion sign has been placed on top of it. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 14:29, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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* [[Template:A]], block-compressed mumble. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 18:44, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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* [[Template:1]], ditto. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 18:10, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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*[[Template:Cpop]] (orphaned) -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 20:24, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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===Disputed (deprecated)=== |
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''This subsection is deprecated. If the outcome of a proposal for deletion does not result in a clear concensus, the debate may continue on the template's Talk page -- not here.'' |
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====[[Template:Deletebecauseoncommons]]==== |
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(and redirect at [[Template:dbc]]) |
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''Summary: 2 Delete, 1 Keep ~ [[User:Ceyockey|Courtland]] 8 March'' |
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(Logged at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/Deleted/Archive/Feb05]]) |
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We already have two templates which handle both aspects of this one. [[Template:NowCommons]] documents that the image is at Commons, and [[Template:ifd]] marks those images which are up for deletion. Compare [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Tears.jpg&diff=next&oldid=10263251 here] where I replaced use of this template with the appropriate ones. There is no special reason to combine these two ideas into a single template. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 20:48, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' - it should be encouraged to upload files to commons under the same name, to avoid having to change the articles. And there's no reason {{tl|NowCommons}} shouldn't be like this one (which I created not knowing of NowCommons's existence, if it existed at the time). --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 22:18, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
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** I ''agree'', but we already have templates to handle this. This one is redundant with those established ones. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 02:29, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC) |
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** Why should we encourage people to keep the same name? A lot of images here are titled in CamelCase; and there's no reason not to fix it when the opportunity arises. I always replace bad names with good when pushing to the Commons. [[User:Dbenbenn|dbenbenn]] | [[User talk:Dbenbenn|talk]] 14:09, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''', redundant - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 13:07, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC) |
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*I don't care - I just wanted to mention that there's a category associated with these which ought to go away too if the template does. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] [[User_talk:Jnc|(talk)]] 05:21, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Replace''' it with <nowiki>{{NowCommons}} <br/> {{ifd}}</nowiki> or redirect to NowCommons. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] <sup >[[User talk:Alphax|τ]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|ε]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|χ]]</sup > 01:27, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. I have several images I've uploaded to en, and now reuploaded to Commons. I want to delete the en versions so the Commons versions show through, but I ''hate'' having that {{template|ifd}} on there. It's just temporary, but there's no reason that viewers should see that notice. (I also find it a bit silly that even when I am the creator and uploader of the en image, then upload to Commons, I still can't request speedy deletion even though no images in articles will be broken.) Adding {{template|NowCommons}} doesn't help much because unless someone knows what Commons is, it doesn't really explain. If I were a random visitor and clicked on an image to get the larger one, I would not understand why this apparently good image was up for deletion, and even a casual editor might not understand. If I can't get my images deleted speedily, I would at least like the deletion notice to clearly explain that it is because there is now a redundant copy and there is no problem with the image ''per se''. [[User:SPUI]] saw me struggling and was kind enough to point this out to me. This is not just a combination of those two templates, in my opinion. — [[User:Knowledge Seeker|Knowledge Seeker]] [[User talk:Knowledge Seeker|দ]] 08:59, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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**Note that this is ''not'' a problem for images which are uploaded under different names to Commons; in that case, the other templates work fine. A casual viewer to the article would see the new Commons image if he followed the link and would be unaware of the old local version which was up for deletion. Anyone who came to the old image would have come specifically seeking that image, and the {{template|NowCommons}} and {{template|ifd}} would be more than sufficient. But in the event that you actually think the original name is perfectly adequate and want to move to Commons, while the image is in IFD the article viewers will see the deletion notice, and I don't think the two-template combination is adequate. — [[User:Knowledge Seeker|Knowledge Seeker]] [[User talk:Knowledge Seeker|দ]] 21:53, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Redundant''', so delete or redirect [[User:BrokenSegue|'''B'''roken]][[User talk:BrokenSegue|'''S'''egue]] 21:20, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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== Listings to log == |
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''Templates with completed discussions which have not yet been logged; remove from'' '''''this''''' ''page entirely when logged. Anyone can do this, not just an admin; please see the directions at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log]].'' |
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<!-- New listings *DO NOT* go here; please read the instructions. --> |
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<!-- Don't edit below this line, except to add categories and interwiki links. --> |
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[[Category:Wikipedia deletion|Templates for deletion]] |
Latest revision as of 17:26, 3 February 2025
![]() | This page has an administrative backlog that requires the attention of willing administrators. This notice will be automatically removed by AnomieBOT (talk) when the backlog is cleared. |
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TfD | 0 | 1 | 21 | 41 | 63 |
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FfD | 0 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 5 |
RfD | 0 | 0 | 13 | 5 | 18 |
AfD | 0 | 0 | 10 | 37 | 47 |
Deletion discussions |
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Articles |
Templates and modules |
Files |
Categories |
Redirects |
Miscellany |
Speedy deletion |
Proposed deletion |
On this page, the deletion or merging of templates and modules, except as noted below, is discussed.
How to use this page
[edit]What not to propose for discussion here
[edit]The majority of deletion and merger proposals concerning pages in the template namespace and module namespace should be listed on this page. However, there are a few exceptions:
- Stub templates
- Stub templates and categories should be listed at Categories for discussion, as these templates are merely containers for their categories, unless the stub template does not come with a category and is being nominated by itself.
- Userboxes
- Userboxes should be listed at Miscellany for deletion, regardless of the namespace in which they reside.
- Speedy deletion candidates
- If the template clearly satisfies a criterion for speedy deletion, tag it with a speedy deletion template. For example, if you wrote the template and request its deletion, tag it with {{Db-author}}. See also WP:T5.
- Policy or guideline templates
- Templates that are associated with particular Wikipedia policies or guidelines, such as the speedy deletion templates, cannot be listed at TfD separately. They should be discussed on the talk page of the relevant guideline.
- Template redirects
- List at Redirects for discussion.
- Moving and renaming
- Use Wikipedia:Requested moves.
Reasons to delete a template
[edit]- The template violates some part of the template namespace guidelines, and can't be altered to be in compliance.
- The template is redundant to a better-designed template.
- The template is not used, either directly or by template substitution (the latter cannot be concluded from the absence of backlinks), and has no likelihood of being used.
- The template violates a policy such as Neutral point of view or Civility and it can't be fixed through normal editing.
Templates should not be nominated if the issue can be fixed by normal editing. Instead, you should edit the template to fix its problems. If the template is complex and you don't know how to fix it, WikiProject Templates may be able to help.
Templates for which none of these apply may be deleted by consensus here. If a template is being misused, consider clarifying its documentation to indicate the correct use, or informing those that misuse it, rather than nominating it for deletion. Initiate a discussion on the template talk page if the correct use itself is under debate.
Listing a template
[edit]To list a template for deletion or merging, adhere to the following three-step process. Utilizing Twinkle is strongly recommended as it automates and simplifies these steps. To use Twinkle, click TW in the toolbar (top right of the page), then select XFD. Do not include the "Template:" prefix in any of the steps, unless specifically instructed otherwise.
Step | Instructions |
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I: Tag the template. | Add one of the following codes to the top of the template page:
Note:
Multiple templates: If you are nominating multiple related templates, choose a meaningful title for the discussion (like "American films by decade templates"). Tag every template with Related categories: If including template-populated tracking categories in the TfD nomination, add TemplateStyles pages: The above templates will not work on TemplateStyles pages. Instead, add a CSS comment to the top of the page:
|
II: List the template at TfD. |
If the template has had previous TfDs, you can add Use an edit summary such as Multiple templates: If this is a deletion proposal involving multiple templates, use the following: {{subst:Tfd2|template name 1|template name 2 ...|title=meaningful discussion title|text=Why you think the templates should be deleted. ~~~~}} You can add up to 50 template names (separated by vertical bar characters If this is a merger proposal involving more than two templates, use the following: {{subst:Tfm2|template name 1|template name 2 ...|with=main template (optional)|title=meaningful discussion title|text=Why you think the templates should be merged. ~~~~}} You can add up to 50 template names (separated by vertical bar characters Related categories: If this is a deletion proposal involving a template and a category populated solely by templates, add this code in the {{subst:Catfd2|category name}} | and paste the following text to the top of the list:
III: Notify users. | Please notify the creator of the template nominated (as well as the creator of the target template, if proposing a merger). It is helpful to also notify the main contributors of the template that you are nominating. To find them, look in the page history or talk page of the template. Then, add one of the following:
to the talk pages of the template creator (and the creator of the other template for a merger) and the talk pages of the main contributors. It is also helpful to make any interested WikiProjects aware of the discussion. To do that, make sure the template's talk page is tagged with the banners of any relevant WikiProjects; please consider notifying any of them that do not use Article alerts. Deletion sorting lists are a possible way of doing that. Multiple templates: There is no template for notifying an editor about a multiple-template nomination: please write a personal message in these cases. |
Consider adding any templates you nominate for TfD to your watchlist. This will help ensure that the TfD tag is not removed.
After nominating: Notify interested projects and editors
[edit]While it is sufficient to list a template for discussion at TfD (see above), nominators and others sometimes want to attract more attention from and participation by informed editors. All such efforts must comply with Wikipedia's guideline against biased canvassing.
To encourage participation by less experienced editors, please avoid Wikipedia-specific abbreviations in the messages you leave about the discussion, link to any relevant policies or guidelines, and link to the TfD discussion page itself. If you are recommending that a template be speedily deleted, please give the criterion that it meets.
Notifying related WikiProjects
[edit]WikiProjects are groups of editors that are interested in a particular subject or type of editing. If the article is within the scope of one or more WikiProjects, they may welcome a brief, neutral note on their project's talk page(s) about the TfD. You can use {{subst:Tfd notice}} for this.
Tagging the nominated template's talk page with a relevant Wikiproject's banner will result in the template being listed in that project's Article Alerts automatically, if they subscribe to the system. For instance, tagging a template with {{WikiProject Physics}} will list the discussion in Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics/Article alerts.
Notifying substantial contributors to the template
[edit]While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the template and its talkpage that you are nominating for discussion. To find the creator and main contributors, look in the page history or talk page.
At this point, you've done all you need to do as nominator. Sometime after seven days have passed, someone else will either close the discussion or, where needed, "relist" it for another seven days of discussion. (That "someone" may not be you, the nominator.)
Once you have submitted a template here, no further action is necessary on your part. If the nomination is successful it will be added to the Holding Cell until the change is implemented. There is no requirement for nominators to be part of the implementation process, but they are allowed to if they so wish.
Also, consider adding any templates you nominate to your watchlist. This will help ensure that your nomination tag is not mistakenly or deliberately removed.
Twinkle
[edit]Twinkle is a convenient tool that can perform many of the posting and notification functions automatically, with fewer errors and missed steps than manual editing. To use Twinkle, click its dropdown menu in the toolbar in the top right of the page: TW , and then click 'XFD'.
Note that Twinkle does not notify WikiProjects, although many of them have automatic alerts. It is helpful to notify any interested WikiProjects that don't receive alerts, but this has to be done manually.
Discussion
[edit]Anyone can join the discussion, but please understand the deletion policy and explain your reasoning.
People will sometimes also recommend subst or subst and delete and similar. This means the template text should be "merged" into the articles that use it. Depending on the content, the template page may then be deleted; if preserving the edit history for attribution is desirable, it may be history-merged with the target article or moved to mainspace and redirected.
Templates are rarely orphaned—that is, removed from pages that transclude them—before the discussion is closed. A list of open discussions eligible for closure can be found at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Old unclosed discussions.
Closing discussion
[edit]Administrators should read the closing instructions before closing a nomination. Note that WP:XFDcloser semi-automates this process and ensures all of the appropriate steps are taken.
Current discussions
[edit]I was reviewing a draft that is due to be deleted via CSD G13, Draft:Railway line No. 412 and it is the only page transcluded to this template. The draft said the railway line is no longer in use so I think this template will go unused. Liz Read! Talk! 04:16, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
Unnecessary fork of {{Infobox character}}. Only addition is a random arbitrary numbering scheme for companions (e.g. "The 49th Companion") -- Alex_21 TALK 00:27, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
Unused and redundant to Template:Infobox political party. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:15, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. Alfarizi M (talk) 21:35, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
Far too wide scope for a useful template. The Banner talk 13:00, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- @The Banner, By meaning wider scope, you meant wider in the geographic sense or on the scope of the constituents. If you could please clarify the reason more appropriately, then would be able to add on to the discussion. So, if you do believe that the scope is wide, would it be preferable to have a template split geographically or by type of bridge? While not wanting to base an argument based on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, there are similar templates that certainly do exist. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 14:10, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- Split geographically at least, as this template has the potential to become excessively big. And please fix the links to disambiguation pages. The Banner talk 14:25, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).
The result of the discussion was Template does not exist. If the title linked contains a typo, feel free to correct the typo and un-close this discussion. AnomieBOT⚡ 23:01, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
I am nominating this article for deletion because it appears to be premature and lacks sufficient independent coverage to establish encyclopedic notability. While the events described are recent and have garnered media attention, the article currently lacks the depth, context, and reliable secondary sources necessary for a comprehensive encyclopedia entry. It may be more appropriate to integrate this information into broader articles, such as 2025 United States protests against mass deportation or 2025 in California, until more substantial coverage becomes available.
Dahawk04 (talk) 22:00, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- Template:Unreferenced2 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
This template was kept at a previous TfD because editors were unclear about whether this template was being used. This search which lists all uses of the template comes up empty. Additionally, the placement of the {{unreferenced}} tag violates MOS:ORDER—which says maintenance banners belong at the top of the article, not in the #References section—and we shouldn't have templates which help people violate guidelines. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 14:29, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
All the navigation pages redirect to the same page History of the United States National Security Council. Longhornsg (talk) 20:42, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Taggart (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Only one viable link. WP:NENAN --woodensuperman 12:08, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:New Tricks (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Only two articles, well linked. WP:NENAN --woodensuperman 12:03, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
Only two viable links, already well linked. WP:NENAN --woodensuperman 11:58, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Børning (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Two articles, already well linked. WP:NENAN --woodensuperman 08:48, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
Not a defining characteristic and better off handled as a list. Of note, the List of suffixed Interstate Highways is linked from the bottom of every infobox for an Interstate Highway already, so this navbox is unnecessary. Imzadi 1979 → 23:36, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I think this Template will help users to be able to navigate around different suffixed interstates easier instead of having to go to one main page. Breck0530 (talk) 05:21, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:04, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose I agree with @Breck0530, we should keep this, it's more easier. Noob from2 (talk) 15:01, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 23:54, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete Fails WP:NAVBOX criteria 1, 3, 5. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:27, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Dirty Hit (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
There is general consensus through previous TfDs that record label navboxes don't provide a close enough association between the artists signed to the label to warrant them. This is a case where categorization (Category:Dirty Hit artists) works better. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 18:12, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Law of Mexico (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
This is a navbox that only contains red links (excluding in the title). It was created in 2013 and since then none of the entries have been created into an article. 6ii9 (talk) 15:06, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
100 Women by BBC navboxes
[edit]- Template:100 Women by BBC in 2013 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:100 Women by BBC in 2020 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:100 Women by BBC in 2021 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:100 Women by BBC in 2022 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:100 Women by BBC in 2023 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:100 Women by BBC in 2024 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Being delegates is little more than WP:PERFNAV. Appearing on the 100 Women (BBC) list is not suitable for navbox inclusion. --woodensuperman 13:04, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, over navboxing. Frietjes (talk) 14:29, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Minilink (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions or incoming links. Created in 2016. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:06, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. Frietjes (talk) 14:30, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete: No longer used. Yours aye, Buaidh talk e-mail 14:52, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions. Redundant to {{Unreferenced law|section}}
. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:22, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as per nomination. Bearian (talk) 13:30, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete, as template creator, it having outlived its usefulness. BD2412 T 00:34, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Timeline National Football League (active teams) (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions or incoming links. Assadzadeh (talk) 18:28, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as per nomination. Assadzadeh (talk) 20:26, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
The title suggests a broad overview of conservative thought or political movements in the country, but the template exclusively covers the People's Action Party (PAP) and its politicians, even including the PAP logo as its image. This gives an inaccurate impression that conservatism in Singapore is limited to the PAP, when in fact other parties and figures, some of whom oppose the PAP, also hold conservative views on social, economic or cultural issues. As it stands, this template is misaligned, misleading and frankly unnecessary. MordukhovichAleakin (talk) 08:21, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. That can be solved by improving the template, which is not a reason to delete the template itself. ProgramT (talk) 08:23, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Vestrian24Bio 09:34, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 15:58, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. The template should stay or be changed into a infobox instead. Don’t know why, we should delete it. Why are so many templates, being removed from articles, recently?! - 216.49.130.12 (talk) 20:54, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 23:56, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Leaning delete' as OR. We don't have an article on Conservatism, and equating "Conservatism" to one political party seems a potentially misleading (as nom notes) way to cover the topic. CMD (talk) 08:17, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom GodzillamanRor (talk) 13:16, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:CC BY 3.0 US (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Obsolete CC license; we should not encourage the use of outdated licenses any more than necessary. If you truly need to use an obsolete license, Commons has its own c:Template:Cc-by-3.0-us. Zero tranclusions, so we are safe to delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:07, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:CC BY-SA 2.5 BR (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Obsolete CC license; we should not encourage the use of outdated licenses any more than necessary. If you truly need to use an obsolete license, Commons has its own c:Template:Cc-by-sa-2.5-br. Zero tranclusions, so we are safe to delete. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 02:05, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
Old discussions
[edit]"Talk Page Proposal" series
These templates were created for the purpose of creating proposals. These proposals would be placed on the talk pages of any subject, draw attention and induce focused insightful conversation, and structures a voting system as to whether the proposal would be accepted or rejected; these proposal votes usually end after two weeks. The voting system also comes included with a checking system, so that talkers can see how the number of supporters and deniers fare against each other; if one number drastically outweighs the other, the discussion can be closed early at one week. The series consists of, and is affiliated with, the following pages:
- Template:Talk Page Proposal
- Category:Talk pages with ongoing proposals
- Template:Talk Page Proposal Settled
- Category:Talk pages with settled proposals
- Template:Talk Page Proposal check
- Template:Talk Page Proposal outcome — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThunderBrine (talk • contribs)
- Comment: There do not appear to be any nominations in this section. Was this meant as a comment in one or more of the sections below? – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:14, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: There is no nomination in this section. It was meant to group together the templates currently on trial, which are Template:Talk Page Proposal and Template:Talk Page Proposal check. The actual nominations are listed below in the named sections. ThunderBrine (talk; contributions; watchlist; sandbox) 19:22, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, documentation, categories, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep: It alerts people to a discussion/proposal currently happening. ThunderBrine (talk; contributions; watchlist; sandbox) 19:03, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as encouraging vote-counting rather than consensus-forming.
With a margin of 3 votes, over 50% approval is required. 66.7% approve the first place option. CONSENSUS REACHED
should not appear in any template. (See also WP:NOSUMMARIES.) Best, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 00:55, 5 June 2025 (UTC)- Not applicable to this template specifically; This template does not have vote-counting, or any comparison of numbers. This template simply categorizes what pages currently contain an ongoing discussion with a proposal attached.
- It expects users to click on Category:Talk pages with ongoing proposals in order to easily navigate the wiki to address proposals that are currently being issued. ThunderBrine (talk; contributions; watchlist; sandbox) 03:11, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- That category does not appear to have ever existed. That, perhaps, shows that this template is not useful. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete There is absolutely no need for this level of formalization. Talk page proposals can happen and be resolved by the normal editing process, or via WP:RFC if really needed. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:34, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, documentation, categories, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep: It documents the comparison of supporters and deniers of a subject when deciding how to proceed forward. ThunderBrine (talk; contributions; watchlist; sandbox) 19:03, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as encouraging vote-counting rather than consensus-forming.
With a margin of 3 votes, over 50% approval is required. 66.7% approve the first place option. CONSENSUS REACHED
should not appear in any template. (See also WP:NOSUMMARIES.) Best, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 00:55, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete There is absolutely no need for this level of formalization. Talk page proposals can happen and be resolved by the normal editing process, or via WP:RFC if really needed. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:34, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
Navbox that contains only one blue link, 2024–25 Liga 4, because that was the first season of this league. Not useful for navigation until there are four or five things to link between. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:55, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. Frietjes (talk) 14:31, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
The only realistic use for this template is to violate WP:ELNO#EL10. Therefore, we should not have this template. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:14, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. In a related discussion, there hasn't been any support for the idea of including multiple social media links on articles, so there's no purpose for having this template. (edited to add the following) I just noticed that WP:ELMIN states
Wikipedia does not attempt to document or provide links to every part of the subject's web presence or provide readers with a handy list of all social networking sites.
Schazjmd (talk) 20:27, 1 June 2025 (UTC) - For context, I just noticed that social media links were being listed, and made the template to make that easier. I didn't realize that WP:NOSOCIAL existed. ⇒ Aerrapc they/them, 20:47, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per Aerrapc. JackFromWisconsin (talk | contribs) 03:29, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
WP:TG #3, #5: It's unclear from the name and doc (which it doesn't have) what the function, usage and scope of this template is. WP:NAVBOX #4: the title just links to Kingdom of Bavaria and there is no Prince of Bavaria or Princes of Bavaria or List of princes of Bavaria.
The navbox is redundant to Template:Kings of Bavaria as far as the kings are concerned (WP:TFD#REASONS #2), while all "princes" appear to be random inclusions from Category:Princes of Bavaria. They weren't all crown princes or pretenders or heads of the House of Wittelsbach or anything; it's just kings + random princes. Per WP:TG #6, Category:Princes of Bavaria serves a better function than this template, which should therefore be deleted. NLeeuw (talk) 19:29, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Campaignbox Democratic Revolution of 1954 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Non-battle campaignbox, not transcluded (WP:NAV-WITHIN). 1 actual (non-battle) article, 2 piped links to the island of Lanai, 1 to Territory of Hawaii#Hawaii 7, and 4 redlinks. NLeeuw (talk) 18:05, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, documentation, or categories. Just one incoming link from a discussion five years ago asking if it was ever used. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:05, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions or documentation. Created in 2022. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:00, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Wikipedia:Humor. Part of WP:LIGHTBULB. NLeeuw (talk) 18:55, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed or move to a subpage of Wikipedia:How many Wikipedians does it take to change a lightbulb?. Frietjes (talk) 14:32, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Nleeuw. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 11:18, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete The joke works just as well if the template is red; this template postdates the essay WP:LIGHTBULB by over a decade hence it's clearly not an essential part of that essay. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:30, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Infobox road/shieldmain/PSE (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Infobox road/name/PSE (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Infobox road/shield/NGA (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions or documentation. Created in 2023. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:58, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep Template:Infobox road/shield/NGA, it is being used by Template:Infobox road/doc/country, which is itself being used by several articles.
- Vanderwaalforces (talk) 18:18, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- It has no transclusions. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:25, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
Navbox with no transclusions, main article, or incoming links. Created in January 2024. Just three blue links in the navbox body. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:58, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Merge to Template:Video digital distribution platforms, where 1 of the 3 already is. The fact that they are Turkish is probably not that important if it's on the internet. NLeeuw (talk) 18:49, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Support as the initial creator of the page. I guess there just isn’t enough to justify its own page for now. ~eticangaaa (talk) 05:06, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, template parameters, or documentation. Created in January 2024. This appears to be article content. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:57, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- weak keep, and revert [1] and [2]. I would be happy to have a discussion about a broader set of these, but the current convention is to have these when the can be used in more than one article. Frietjes (talk) 14:34, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, template parameters, or documentation. Created in March 2024. This appears to be article content. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:56, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:54, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as unused and redundant to List of tallest buildings in China. If anyone is really, really interested in supertall skyscrapers rather than just 'buildings', they can adopt this template and listify it. NLeeuw (talk) 18:45, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:NAVBOX #3. Northern Moonlight 00:17, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Campaignbox resistance to the Russian invasion of Ukraine (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions, documentation, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:54, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:NAVBOX #4 and WP:NAV-WITHIN #1. NLeeuw (talk) 18:12, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
Unused and is a partial duplicate of Template:National upper houses. No discussion I could find makes this template necessary for a split or a separate one is needed. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
Unused and no links to any article except for a link to a wrong bio. Pointless navbox. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:45, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. Classic WP:GARAGEBAND + WP:NENAN. NLeeuw (talk) 18:40, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. The template has been cleaned up and now adheres to standard formatting used for musical artist navboxes. It organizes verified content from the main article, including band members, discography, and notable singles. The main article cites significant coverage from Billboard, NPR, and major regional publications, and documents the band's European label distribution and MTV airplay. This is not a WP:GARAGEBAND case, and the navbox serves a legitimate navigational role for current and potential future content.
- There are no links to any articles in the template outside the main article. There is no navigational role. The keep vote is from the creator whose edits don't adhere to basic navbox purpose. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:26, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. Point taken. I agree that the template currently doesn't serve a meaningful navigational purpose and support its deletion.
- Template:Timeline National Basketball Association (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Unused timeline template. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:41, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- @WikiCleanerMan is used: Timeline of the National Basketball Association#Timeline. Keep. NLeeuw (talk) 18:38, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- No it isn't. Its subst. It was being used and was single-use. Still valid to delete. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- @WikiCleanerMan, So, if it's not a single-use template, then does that justify keeping it? Assadzadeh (talk) 23:21, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- No. It not being used anywhere and is not needed on the one article it was being used. No need to keep. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:24, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- @WikiCleanerMan, So, if it's not a single-use template, then does that justify keeping it? Assadzadeh (talk) 23:21, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- No it isn't. Its subst. It was being used and was single-use. Still valid to delete. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete No need for a template for content used on only one page. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:34, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:The Hundred (women's) competition results summary (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Unused and only edit has been creation. Displays error code. If creator intends to work on it, userfication can be granted. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:10, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep: I've updated the modules and template is working now, will be added to more pages soon. Vestrian24Bio 09:27, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 14:24, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Vestrian24Bio. Is used in 2025 The Hundred season#Standings now. NLeeuw (talk) 18:34, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete No need for a template for content used on only one page. Why is a custom template format needed here? Why doesn't the format used at 2024 The Hundreds season not suffice? * Pppery * it has begun... 17:34, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, documentation, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:16, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. Frietjes (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep Now used. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:52, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:15, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Jonesey95 I think you are mistaken. This template is transcluded many times, probably 50+ times for all U.S. states. E.g.
- Etc. The reason why you do not see transclusions at "What links here", other than main article Climate change in the United States, is probably because there are multiple templates at work here. For example, Template:United States topic + Template:Climate change in the United States. NLeeuw (talk) 18:20, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the note. This template is not transcluded. The examples you give use
{{United States topic|prefix=Climate change in}}
, not the nominated template. If you edit one of those sections and look at "Templates used in this section:", you will see that the nominated template is not used. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:07, 1 June 2025 (UTC)- I added it to the main article. Enough to keep. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, so technically it is not transcluded, but in practice it is used in 50+ pages. Enough to Keep as WCM says. NLeeuw (talk) 20:48, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- The "in practice" part of your statement is incorrect. The template is transcluded on four pages as of this writing; an editor has added it to those pages. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:16, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Alright, so technically it is not transcluded, but in practice it is used in 50+ pages. Enough to Keep as WCM says. NLeeuw (talk) 20:48, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- I added it to the main article. Enough to keep. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks for the note. This template is not transcluded. The examples you give use
- Template:No alt text (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions. Proposed in March 2025 but does not appear to have been adopted for maintenance and tracking. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:15, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep and promote use. Alt text is easily forgotten and a maintenance tag for it could have use. JackFromWisconsin (talk | contribs) 18:21, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: This template is not listed in the tagging menu in WP:TWINKLE. Adding it to the menu could help encourage its use. silviaASH (inquire within) 22:01, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Please userfy if consensus to delete (I made this). This is an element of a proposal I've been brainstorming, but I haven't had a lot of free time over the past few months and it needs more time in the incubator. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 10:23, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:13, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:MessageNames (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions, categories, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:13, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Userbox-w-2 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions or incoming links from discussions. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:12, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Userfy. I made this as a two-sided alternative to Template:Userbox-w and anticipated no objection. If I had known this TfD would have started, I would have created this template in userspace for my own personal use and left it there. If hosting this in template space is deemed undesirable and there is no objection to doing so, I would like this to be placed in my userspace at User:SilviaASH/Userbox-w-2. silviaASH (inquire within) 13:33, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. I don't see how hosting this in template space is undesirable. JackFromWisconsin (talk | contribs) 18:18, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Userfy per request of creator. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Iron Cross (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions, documentation, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:12, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. Frietjes (talk) 14:36, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:7 Year topicon (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions, documentation, or incoming links. Broken. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:11, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. JackFromWisconsin (talk | contribs) 18:22, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:UsersInGroup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions, categories, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:11, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. Frietjes (talk) 14:37, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:PD-AR-Senate (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:11, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Music licensing (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:10, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as unused and redundant to Template:Music industry per WP:TFD#REASONS #2 and #3. NLeeuw (talk) 18:30, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
Comment: I started working on this template and forgot to finish it or incorporate it into the articles it references. Template:Music industry doesn't include any music rights concepts, like mechanical or synchronization licensing, so how is it redundant? Qzekrom (she/her • talk) 00:04, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Swap (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions, categories, or incoming links. Two incoming links were links to the previous, deleted version of this template, which appears to have been slightly different from this one. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:09, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. Frietjes (talk) 14:37, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Pi digits (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:08, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. Frietjes (talk) 14:37, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, categories, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:08, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Wasn't this just in my sandbox? I'm only half way through creating it. If it has been added to an article, let's remove from said article until I finish the template and then re-add to article? --Roisterer (talk) 14:21, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Userfy per Roisterer. NLeeuw (talk) 18:27, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:07, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, documentation, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:07, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. Even if this were used on articles, I would still support its removal. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:19, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:06, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. we already have more targeted versions of these like Template:Cfb link, which are tended to by a bot. Frietjes (talk) 14:39, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:06, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed and the coloring is pretty bad. Frietjes (talk) 14:40, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Master of Sport of Russia International Class (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:06, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. Frietjes (talk) 14:40, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:WikiProject tab (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions, documentation, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:05, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- delete, not needed. Frietjes (talk) 14:41, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, documentation, categories, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:05, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as a non-battle campaignbox. Not worth navboxifying. NLeeuw (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Upcoming event (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:47, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, documentation, categories, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep: It alerts people to a discussion/proposal currently happening. ThunderBrine (talk; contributions; watchlist; sandbox) 19:03, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as encouraging vote-counting rather than consensus-forming.
With a margin of 3 votes, over 50% approval is required. 66.7% approve the first place option. CONSENSUS REACHED
should not appear in any template. (See also WP:NOSUMMARIES.) Best, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 00:55, 5 June 2025 (UTC)- Not applicable to this template specifically; This template does not have vote-counting, or any comparison of numbers. This template simply categorizes what pages currently contain an ongoing discussion with a proposal attached.
- It expects users to click on Category:Talk pages with ongoing proposals in order to easily navigate the wiki to address proposals that are currently being issued. ThunderBrine (talk; contributions; watchlist; sandbox) 03:11, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- That category does not appear to have ever existed. That, perhaps, shows that this template is not useful. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete There is absolutely no need for this level of formalization. Talk page proposals can happen and be resolved by the normal editing process, or via WP:RFC if really needed. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:34, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
No transclusions, documentation, categories, or incoming links. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep: It documents the comparison of supporters and deniers of a subject when deciding how to proceed forward. ThunderBrine (talk; contributions; watchlist; sandbox) 19:03, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete as encouraging vote-counting rather than consensus-forming.
With a margin of 3 votes, over 50% approval is required. 66.7% approve the first place option. CONSENSUS REACHED
should not appear in any template. (See also WP:NOSUMMARIES.) Best, HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 00:55, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete There is absolutely no need for this level of formalization. Talk page proposals can happen and be resolved by the normal editing process, or via WP:RFC if really needed. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:34, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Manbalar (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
This template is not transclueded anywhere and has no documentation supporting its use. It looks to be entirely useless. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:12, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Zero Contradictions (talk) 22:10, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- keep, I'm not sure why Legend of 14 thinks this is entirely useless. if someone wants to translate an article from the Uzbek Wikipedia, this automatically translates uz:Andoza:Manbalar to Template:Reflist. it's not transcluded anywhere because it is automatically substituted by a bot when it is used, hence the automatic translation. I could see an argument that we don't have many pages being translated from the Uzbek Wikipedia, but this is definitely not "entirely useless". Frietjes (talk) 14:27, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Weak keep, there are plenty of these templates that automatically translate from another language. I am not sure why this one is any better/worse than the rest. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 16:46, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete I find the premise behind this sort of thing fundamentally wrong; we shouldn't go out of our way to provide a veneer over the inherently messy process of translating content and templates from other wikis; that seems likely to encourage people to do it improperly. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:25, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Strip italics (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
This template has no documentation. It would be easier to remove the apostrophes that are making the input italics than to type out {{Strip italics|<input>}}. It is therefore useless. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:03, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Redirect to Template:Noitalic, which does the same thing in a less-hacky way. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 21:27, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- This is a helper function I had used within other templates. Stripping the wikiformat italics lets us use the input within a wikilink (see earlier versions of
{{ganl}}
). Noitalic doesn't work the same way. It's a short function so I copied it over where I had been using it, so delete this one if you see it as having no future value. I thought it was helpful. czar 03:23, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Cit news (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:C news (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Unused, uncommon, and WP:COSTLY. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:10, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. NLeeuw (talk) 20:12, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. It has obviously not been unused, or it wouldn't have been converted from a redirect into an auto-subst-only template. There are no transclusions at this time because of this auto-substing. This template is the opposite of costly; it makes it so that inadvertent typos that would have to be processed by a human are converted to the right template by a bot. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:14, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Pageviews are about 2 per month and 1 per month. This is nothing. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:58, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Page views don't sound like a good indicator of people accidentally making a typo in the template name. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:24, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- We don't have redirects for 'cit journal' or 'ite news' or 'cte news', and we shouldn't have one for those either. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 08:27, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where the "shouldn't" comes from. From @Jonesey95's comment, it's not "costly". We don't actually know if it's "unused", as it's meant to be replaced, so counting current uses is irrelevant. Is it "uncommon"? I hope so, but "uncommon" isn't the same as useless, and we have many thousands of {{R from typo}} pages. Why "shouldn't" this one just be one more of that kind? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:16, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- We don't have redirects for 'cit journal' or 'ite news' or 'cte news', and we shouldn't have one for those either. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 08:27, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Page views don't sound like a good indicator of people accidentally making a typo in the template name. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:24, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Pageviews are about 2 per month and 1 per month. This is nothing. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:58, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- keep, useful to have these typos auto corrected by a bot, and certainly better than having a redirect. Frietjes (talk) 14:23, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep, there are plenty of these templates that automatically substitute. I am not sure why this one is any better/worse than the rest. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 16:51, 6 June 2025 (UTC)
- Delete We should not encourage sloppy editing. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:23, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Campaignbox Sully's Expedition Against the Sioux in Dakota Territory (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Campaignbox Operations Against the Sioux in North Dakota (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Propose merging Template:Campaignbox Sully's Expedition Against the Sioux in Dakota Territory with Template:Campaignbox Operations Against the Sioux in North Dakota.
I propose to redirect Sully campaignbox to the Operations campaignbox per WP:TFD#REASONS no. #2 & #3 + WP:TG Guideline no. #8 + WP:OVERLAP.
- The Sully campaignbox includes only 2 battles (set in North Dakota 1864), which are (since 2024) also included in the 6 battles in the Operations campaignbox (the other 4 are set in North Dakota 1863), which is actually used in all linked articles. The Sully campaignbox is only transcluded in Trans-Mississippi theater of the American Civil War, where the Operations campaignbox is also used already, making the Sully campaignbox completely redundant.
- Note: the Sully campaignbox was nominated for deletion before in 2012. Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 March 30#Template:Campaignbox Sully's Expedition Against the Sioux in Dakota Territory. It was kept at the time. But I think adding the 2 Sully battles to the Operations campaignbox in 2024 was a good move, and that there is a good reason now to merge the whole Sully campaignbox into it (effectively just redirecting the Sully campaignbox to the Operations campaignbox). NLeeuw (talk) 11:52, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete Campaignbox Sully's Expedition Against the Sioux in Dakota Territory. Both links are featured in the latter campaignbox and used on both articles. There is nothing to merge and add from another template. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:14, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I am used to preferring merge rather than delete at WP:CFD, because a log will state which page has merged into which other page. With deletion, that information gets lost. Therefore admins prefer merging. NLeeuw (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
Template is massive and in desperate need of a split. I'm thinking create Template:Robert Pollard and move all his solo work and other bands there, but I'm open to other suggestions. There may also be more purging that can be done on top of my initial pass (not enough time to check every link and see if they're all articles, but if any are redirects then they should go). QuietHere (talk | contributions) 21:15, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose delete, leaning in favour of a split for Robert Pollard's non GBV work. Circus Devils could probably justify a navbox of its own for example. --woodensuperman 14:01, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Would also support the Circus Devils template, though it may not be entirely necessary depending on the size of the Pollard box. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 15:19, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Split per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:07, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
A recent discussion reached a consensus that U.S. and Canada soccer club seasons should be kept in seperate navboxes according to their leagues. What then are we to make of the "Club seasons" section of this navbox and its predecessors? Not only does it clutter the navbox, there already exists {{2025 MLS season by team}}, {{2025 MLS Next Pro season by team}}, {{2025 USL Championship season}}, and {{2025 NWSL season by team}}. I feel we should either split the "Club seasons" section of this navbox and merge it into these individual navboxes, or merge the individual navboxes into the section here.
Pinging Brindille1, GiantSnowman, PeeJay, and Vestrian24Bio as participants in the aforementioned discussion, and 2pou, Blaixx, EvansHallBear, GrouchoPython, Hey man im josh, Rylesbourne, and Tomrtn as major contributors to some of the five navboxes involved. WikiProject Football, its United States and Canada task force, and WikiProject Sports have been notified of this discussion, and has been listed in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. — AFC Vixen 🦊 18:36, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Support merging - There's no need for {{2025 MLS season by team}}, {{2025 MLS Next Pro season by team}}, {{2025 USL Championship season}} or {{2025 NWSL season by team}} to exist when we have this template. – PeeJay 20:12, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- I feel you may have missed the point of this discussion. Do you have a reason why you prefer to resolve the redundancy by merging instead of splitting? — AFC Vixen 🦊 07:33, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Have I though? Fine, we don't have {{YYYY competition season by team}} navboxes for any other competition, so why for the North American leagues? If need be, we can create separate navboxes for men's and women's football, but splitting by competition is quite unusual. – PeeJay 08:13, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- It's common outside of North American soccer, actually. Examples include {{2025 NFL season by team}}, {{2025 CFL season by team}}, {{2025 MLB season by team}}, {{2024–25 NHL season by team}}, {{2024–25 NBA season by team}}, {{2025 WNBA season by team}}, and {{2025 NLL season by team}}. I find these useful in preventing the overgrowth of navboxes such as {{2025 in American soccer}} to a state that's more difficult for readers to navigate than necessary. — AFC Vixen 🦊 20:01, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Have I though? Fine, we don't have {{YYYY competition season by team}} navboxes for any other competition, so why for the North American leagues? If need be, we can create separate navboxes for men's and women's football, but splitting by competition is quite unusual. – PeeJay 08:13, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- I feel you may have missed the point of this discussion. Do you have a reason why you prefer to resolve the redundancy by merging instead of splitting? — AFC Vixen 🦊 07:33, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Split - the current template is far too large and unwieldy, to the point of being impossible to use. GiantSnowman 20:25, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Split - Would allow us to keep MLS team seasons together without having Canadian teams show up in a American soccer template. EvansHallBear (talk) 22:27, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Support merging per PeeJay. Rylesbourne (talk) 06:54, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: @AFC Vixen: the previous discussion about US and Canada soccer club seasons ended has a no consensus, it did not reach any consensus. Vestrian24Bio 13:58, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Split. The 'league by year' navboxes have links that aren't in the "20XX in American soccer" template. If we merged instead of split, we would have to add even more links to that one which is already too large as-is. BLAIXX 22:43, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Split - Given the length of the template, it is more ideal to split. Ratnahastin (talk) 14:58, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:17, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish colonial conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish anti-piracy actions: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 30#Template:Christianization of Finland: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 2#Template:Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 10#Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Keep Template:Campaign/doc elaborates with, "(or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars)." This, along with other colonial campaign boxes, fit that bill, as well as providing "convenient navigation among articles." I've made great use of these colonial campaignboxes in the past; not just this Danish one, but the Japanese and Dutch ones in particular. UncleBourbon (talk) 20:54, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Concur above CR055H41RZ (talk) 16:57, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. DonBeroni (talk) 21:08, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Vestrian24Bio 13:00, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Template:Campaignbox/doc:
The campaignbox template [is] intended to provide context and convenient navigation among articles on the battles in a campaign, front, theater or war (or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars).
RobertJohnson35 – talk 15:23, 23 May 2025 (UTC) - Keep but i think we should make changes, deleting early crusades in the campaignbox, as these were not "colonial" Tinkaer1991 (talk) 12:52, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- How do we determine whether a conflict is "colonial" or not? We're risking WP:OR. NLeeuw (talk) 15:47, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- I think it's save to say that crusading conflicts should not be grouped with 17th Century colonialism Tinkaer1991 (talk) 17:13, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- How do we determine whether a conflict is "colonial" or not? We're risking WP:OR. NLeeuw (talk) 15:47, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep E4t5s.new (talk) 22:31, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Reformat as a navbox. There is a slight conflict between MOS:CAMPAIGN, in which it would not be permitted, and the template documentation which parenthetically states:
or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars
[emphasis added]. While the template doc is more permissive it also indicates that it may or may not be approriate and the guidance takes precedence. Considering this in balance and the length of this particular sidebar, it would be more appropriate to present this info as a navbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:39, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish colonial conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish anti-piracy actions: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 30#Template:Christianization of Finland: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 2#Template:Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 10#Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:53, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Vestrian24Bio 13:00, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Template:Campaignbox/doc:
The campaignbox template [is] intended to provide context and convenient navigation among articles on the battles in a campaign, front, theater or war (or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars).
RobertJohnson35 – talk 15:26, 23 May 2025 (UTC) - Keep Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Reformat as a navbox. There is a slight conflict between MOS:CAMPAIGN, in which it would not be permitted, and the template documentation which parenthetically states:
or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars
[emphasis added]. While the template doc is more permissive it also indicates that it may or may not be approriate and the guidance takes precedence. While this sidebar is not particularly long, it is still probably more appropriate to present this info as a navbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:07, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish colonial conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish anti-piracy actions: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 30#Template:Christianization of Finland: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 2#Template:Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 10#Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- NLeeuw (talk) 17:59, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep, these all should not be being deleted as there is not an effective alternative for navigation CR055H41RZ (talk) 16:50, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per reasoning outlined in Danish colonial campaigns campaignbox entry. UncleBourbon (talk) 20:54, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep or rename useful for navigation and stuff. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 02:19, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:53, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Vestrian24Bio 13:00, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Template:Campaignbox/doc:
The campaignbox template [is] intended to provide context and convenient navigation among articles on the battles in a campaign, front, theater or war (or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars).
RobertJohnson35 – talk 15:23, 23 May 2025 (UTC) - Keep per RobertJohnson35. And to be quite honest, the same for every other duplicate proposal for deletion on the same grounds. I don't know why everyone's trying to make Wikipedia harder to navigate when WP:USEFUL clearly provides grounds for navigation tools and pages like these campaignboxes under "usefulness is the basis of their inclusion", when they support Wikipedia's basic goal of facilitating access to summaries of relevant knowledge on a topic. "Conflicts a nation fought to create its colonial empire" are all relevant information to each other, by nature. Benjitheijneb (talk) 00:10, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Just to transclude further elaborations from the related Campaignbox Spanish colonial campaigns discussion here where they are relevant: the Japanese colonial empire page establishes through original sources - Peattie (1988), Peattie (1992) and Myers & Peattie (1984) - the justified relevance and relationship between the otherwise-separate Japanese colonial campaigns within the discrete period between the Meiji Restoration and the end of the Second World War, distinguishing them as separate from other Japanese campaigns against foreign powers such as the Imjin War. This meets WP:NAV-RELATED's guidance that navboxes should be "established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles", which also does not require a specific article (e.g. one sharing the campaignbox's title, Japanese colonial campaigns) to contain these reliable sources. Benjitheijneb (talk) 20:10, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per the same reasons. Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Comment I can't Withdraw the proposal anymore because there have already been 2 Delete !votes, but as nom, I am prepared to accept a Keep outcome for now. This template isn't the worst of its kind. As Benjitheijneb mentioned, we are WP:CENTRALising discussion at the Campaignbox Spanish colonial campaigns discussion, and have begun work on a draft guideline for campaignboxes that has been sorely lacking to guide us during TfDs such as this one. That is our priority right now. Feedback is welcome at User talk:Nederlandse Leeuw/Campaignboxes. NLeeuw (talk) 22:09, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Reformat as a navbox. There is a slight conflict between MOS:CAMPAIGN, in which it would not be permitted, and the template documentation which parenthetically states:
or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars
[emphasis added]. While the template doc is more permissive it also indicates that it may or may not be approriate and the guidance takes precedence. While this sidebar is not particularly long, it is still probably more appropriate to present this info as a navbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:07, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish colonial conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish anti-piracy actions: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 30#Template:Christianization of Finland: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 2#Template:Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 10#Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Keep per reasoning outlined in Danish colonial campaigns campaignbox entry. UncleBourbon (talk) 20:54, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Vestrian24Bio 12:59, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Template:Campaignbox/doc:
The campaignbox template [is] intended to provide context and convenient navigation among articles on the battles in a campaign, front, theater or war (or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars).
RobertJohnson35 – talk 15:23, 23 May 2025 (UTC) - Keep per the same reasons. Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep dont see why it should. Does that mean we should delete all the campaignboxes? Eastfarthingan (talk) 20:41, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Reformat as a navbox. There is a slight conflict between MOS:CAMPAIGN, in which it would not be permitted, and the template documentation which parenthetically states:
or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars
[emphasis added]. While the template doc is more permissive it also indicates that it may or may not be approriate and the guidance takes precedence. Considering this in balance and the length of this particular sidebar, it would be more appropriate to present this info as a navbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:11, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Campaignbox Portuguese colonial campaigns (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish colonial conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish anti-piracy actions: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 30#Template:Christianization of Finland: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 2#Template:Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 10#Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Vestrian24Bio 12:59, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Template:Campaignbox/doc:
The campaignbox template [is] intended to provide context and convenient navigation among articles on the battles in a campaign, front, theater or war (or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars).
RobertJohnson35 – talk 15:21, 23 May 2025 (UTC) - Keep per @RobertJohnson35's view Javext (talk) 19:50, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep for the same view. Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- The MOS:CAMPAIGN does not contain the "(or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars)" text. I think that the template should be Deleted unless there is a reason why the campaigns should be grouped together especially. Techie3 (talk) 08:04, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Reformat as a navbox. There is a slight conflict between MOS:CAMPAIGN, in which it would not be permitted, and the template documentation which parenthetically states:
or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars
[emphasis added]. While the template doc is more permissive it also indicates that it may or may not be approriate and the guidance takes precedence. Considering this in balance and the length of this particular sidebar, it would be more appropriate to present this info as a navbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:12, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish colonial conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish anti-piracy actions: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 30#Template:Christianization of Finland: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 2#Template:Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 10#Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Vestrian24Bio 12:59, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per Template:Campaignbox/doc:
The campaignbox template [is] intended to provide context and convenient navigation among articles on the battles in a campaign, front, theater or war (or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars).
This campaignbox is a little messed up but we could restore this version [3]. RobertJohnson35 – talk 15:18, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep per @RobertJohnson35's view Genabab (talk) 23:34, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- @RobertJohnson35 Fair points. MOS:CAMPAIGN appears to have been sufficient to get the previous campaignboxes deleted, so in this new series of nominations for deletion, I did not expect as many Keep votes. (Although everyone appears to agree Template:Campaignbox Portuguese battles in the Indian Ocean should be deleted). Are there any "authoritative" rules or conventions for campaignboxes specifically, such as inclusion criteria and length? All I can find so far are some general conventions and recommendations on navigation templates and navboxes in general.
- Benjitheijneb invoked one sentence from WP:USEFUL:
There are some pages within Wikipedia that are supposed to be useful navigation tools and nothing more—disambiguation pages, categories, and redirects, for instance—so usefulness is the basis of their inclusion; for these types of pages, usefulness is a valid argument.
But WP:USEFUL adds:Usefulness is subjective, and a cogent argument must be more specific: who is the content useful for, and why?
Benjitheijneb commented: when they support Wikipedia's basic goal of facilitating access to summaries of relevant knowledge on a topic. "Conflicts a nation fought to create its colonial empire" are all relevant information to each other, by nature. But I'm not sure that is enough to fulfill the requirement, or whether a template is the best way to organise this information. - WP:CLNT helpfully remarks:
Categories, lists, and navigation templates are three different ways to group and organize articles. Although they each have their own advantages and disadvantages, each method complements the others.
. WP:NAVBOX outlines those very well, and for this and most of the other templates I nominated on 21 May, I find myself in agreement with Disadvantages no. #4, #5, #7, #8, #9, and #11. (In my opinion, #7-9 do not apply to Template:Campaignbox Japanese colonial campaigns and Template:Campaignbox Russian colonial campaigns, because they are relatively small, but their grouping is still arbitrary and subject to WP:OR/WP:SYNTH). - WP:NAV-RELATED states:
If the articles are not established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles, then it is probably not a good idea to interlink them.
This is especially the case with wars/conflicts between country A and country B, which are very vulnerable to WP:OR/WP:SYNTH. This is why Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts was deleted, and I nominated Template:Campaignbox Russo-French Wars, Template:Campaignbox Spanish-Ottoman wars and Template:Campaignbox Franco-Spanish wars as a direct follow-up. You agree with this, at least partially: We can remove all the conflicts from before the formation of Spain and those for which there are no sources that say they are Franco-Spanish wars. The problem with the template space is that it can't really cite sources. (The same goes for the category space). This is why I think listifying some or all of these campaignbox templates might be a better solution than either keeping or deleting them, because... - ... WP:TG states:
Templates should not be used to create lists of links to other articles when a category, list page, or "See also" section list can perform the same function.
I think neither categories nor See also sections would be a better alternative than a campaignbox in (most of) these cases, but a list article would be better than a campaignbox.
- Benjitheijneb invoked one sentence from WP:USEFUL:
- What do you think? I'm open to your perspective, as you've given me good reasons to rethink why and how I nominated these campaignboxes for deletion. Good day, NLeeuw (talk) 16:36, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- I appreciate you considering the raised points with such weight.
- Regarding WP:USEFUL, I actually came across this consideration about whether it's enough or not when I looked where WP:What Wikipedia is redirects to as a counterpoint to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not (I'm a little shocked by how much less fleshed out it is). It suggests that all rationales for inclusion have a "0th law" superceding all else of fulfilling Wikipedia's primary function as a free encyclopedia. If any policy interpretation on Wikipedia opposes its raison d'etre, it stands to reason that the policy or the interpretation are the issue, not the raison d'etre. Style guidance, like the (dis)advantages you cite from WP:NAVBOX, are in place to make articles accessible as encyclopaedic content, not aesthetics alone.
- I do concede the WP:OR/WP:SYNTH arguments for some of those - including this Template:Campaignbox Spanish colonial campaigns on consideration - though I'd strongly argue the point on Template:Campaignbox Japanese colonial campaigns, as the independent original sources cited in the text of Japanese colonial empire already synthesise the campaigns together, so they don't meet the exclusion criterion you quoted from WP:NAV-RELATED as they are "established as related by reliable sources". I do think this is a good litmus test for whether a campaignbox should be included, though I also point out the precedence of WP:NEXIST, "Notability is based on the existence of suitable sources, not on the state of sourcing in an article".
- And regarding WP:TG, I am of the opinion that a list wouldn't be better simply for accessibility: put simply, a collapsible sidebar is a neater and cleaner way of navigating from one military campaign/battle to a related one without having to (a) open a separate page with the list and (b) scroll down a lot more to find the appropriate article in that list (since list pages are typically full-width and have more line breaks, and therefore a lot more whitespace to scroll through than a campaignbox does). However, I am curious why, aside from the inability to cite sources (which I see more as an argument against templates existing at all, since none of the many sidebars and navboxes on Wikipedia have cited sources either), you think listification would be better? Benjitheijneb (talk) 20:04, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Benjitheijneb You're welcome! I appreciate your elaborate response in return.
- It seems we share similar experiences in having trouble finding the relevant template policies and guidelines, or being disappointed by how unspecific they are when we do find them. Part of it is probably my relative inexperience with discussing templates as opposed to articles or categories, so I'm not always sure how these discussions go, and which arguments to invoke or avoid.
- I'm a bit confused about what you mean by the independent original sources cited in the text of Japanese colonial empire already synthesise the campaigns together. Is than argument in favour or against keeping Template:Campaignbox Japanese colonial campaigns?
- WP:NEXIST is only relevant for the question whether a topic merits a stand-alone article, regardless of whether the article in its current state uses suitable sources to establish its notability. On the other hand, WP:NAV-RELATED requires that the there are already
reliable sources in the actual articles,
whichestablish[ that] the articles are [related].
Therefore, the navbox (campaignbox) cannot include links between articles A and B, until reliable sources in articles A and B establish that A and B are related to each other. Alternatively, that reliable sources in article C establish a relationship between A and B, or A and B establish a relationship to C, etc. (in the case of a campaignbox, A and B would be battles or operations in war C). - A major problem is that these templates in their headings link to Spanish Empire, Japanese colonial empire etc. as their "main article". But the "Spanish Empire" was not
a campaign, front, theater or war (or, more rarely, (...) several campaigns or wars)
. It waged a lot of campaign and wars, but was not itself a series of campaigns or wars. The result is a hodgepodge of very disparate article that can only tangentially be related to the Spanish Empire. E.g. I struggle to see what the War of the Sicilian Vespers has to do with the Dunkirkers, or what either of those has to do with the Slaying of the Spaniards (i.e. some Basque civilian fishermen shipwrecked on Iceland were killed after they committed theft), and whether any of these three should be considered a "Spanish colonial campaign". The Campaignbox seems to think that any event involving violence outside the Iberian peninsula, with at least one participant being somehow arguably "Spanish", is sufficient to count as a "Spanish colonial campaign". I disagree. We need far stricter criteria. - None of these three articles currently use the campaignbox anyway. The Campaignbox links to c. 600 articles (rough estimate based on the source code), but has been transcluded in only 118 articles. So in practice, you can only navigate between about 17% of these articles; the rest is a dead end. Therefore, its practical usefulness for navigation is extremely limited. This comes very close to WP:TFD#REASONS for deletion no. #3.
- I understand that a list does not have all the navigational benefits of a campaignbox. But especially with such a long campaignbox with barely-related articles, barely any context, and very limited transclusion, it's doubtful whether the campaignbox is good at serving the purposes you ascribe to them: a collapsible sidebar is a neater and cleaner way of navigating from one military campaign/battle to a related one without having to (a) open a separate page with the list and (b) scroll down a lot more to find the appropriate article in that list. First (a), because campaignboxes are not visible om mobile devices anyway, all readers who use campaignboxes are doing so on a PC or laptop, with a pretty large screen (perhaps even a second monitor) that allows for easy switching between various tabs. Second (b), because readers using PCs or laptops can easily use Ctrl + F to look for any detail the reader is interested in. Lists of battles, campaigns or wars will always contain more information (usually: full name of each conflict, dates, belligerents, and results/outcomes) than a mere campaignbox, that needs to be as concise as possible to prevent taking up too much space, or causing template creep. I know my experience is not necessarily representative all readers, but opening a separate page or using Ctrl + F (instead of "scrolling down a lot") is very, very easy to do on desktops or laptops. That is why, especially for very long campaignboxes with possible WP:OR/WP:SYNTH and scope issues, I think listification according to WP:CSC is a better option.
- So unless a campaignbox is concise (no more than, say, 50 links to articles in it), transcluded on every single article, and those articles have reliable sources which establish that these articles are clearly related to each other, I don't think it has much navigational value, or otherwise a good reason to exist, instead of a well-sourced list with a clearly-defined scope. There are plenty of good campaignboxes out there that serve their purpose better than a list would. This is not one of them. We editors on English Wikipedia just haven't yet established clear conventions where to draw the line between a useful and a not-so-useful campaignbox. I do hope that this discussion will help in establishing a few conventions, because I think that we can share a lot of common ground here, and we all mean well. It's just more complicated than it might seem at first glance.
- Good day, NLeeuw (talk) 16:55, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Well, going back to Wikipedia's first principles appeals to the philosophiser in me, but the real beauty of Wikipedia is that as you say, there's always a chance discussions like these can inform/update changes to those policies and guidelines too. That alone would make it worth the several paragraphs debating them!
- Re: Template:Campaignbox Japanese colonial campaigns - an argument in favour of keeping. Even though the Japanese colonial empire article is about the empire, not the campaigns, the sources it cites already identify those campaigns as being connected more intimately as the "several campaigns or wars" guidance. The notion of considering all Japanese colonial campaigns together (and not as separate and unrelated campaigns that just happen to be launched by the same nation) is supported by the original sources (see Mark Peattie citations in its Biblography section), not the original synthesis of Wikipedians. They are in keeping with WP:NAV-RELATED (good spot on the different criteria to WP:NEXIST) in that the campaigns being connected to each other is established in reliable sources in the actual article. (Nowhere does WP:NAV-RELATED specify that it has to be established in reliable sources in a specific article e.g. titled "Japanese colonial campaigns", after all; in fact, it uses articles in the plural.)
- That said, and especially with your examples, I don't think on consideration that Template:Campaignbox Spanish colonial campaigns (or the Danish, Dutch, Portuguese or Russian equivalents, which I've looked at less) establish this unity even in other articles. A big part of that stems from the fact that they span multiple stages of national evolution: hell, the Spanish one ends in 2012 with modern Spain but begins in 1228 with the Crown of Aragon: not even an entity called Spain, let alone identified uncontroversially with it (and far from the only one)! I can't find in those articles any source connecting the overseas ventures of the Crown of Aragon to even the 19th and 20th century Spanish colonial campaigns, short of original synthesis. That said, an original source which establishes connections between, for example, the First Spanish Republic onwards might be more likely to exist (and therefore warrant a smaller campaignbox of its own), but that's moot if it is not and cannot be cited in article namespace. So I'm very happy to concede the point towards Delete, Dramatically Trim or Split as appropriate to such citations that are present which I just haven't spotted. (Again, I would argue that the Japanese colonial campaigns are an exception as the campaigns of the post-Boshin War to Second World War imperial regime and within a well-demarcated timeframe are already established. If they had included the Imjin War of the 1590s under a completely different regime and most importantly which reliable sources don't typically tie with the others, I'd be arguing to remove that link from the template as a SYNTH/OR example.)
- I think the point of the articles not currently including the navbox relevant to it is a stronger argument for "this campaignbox should be transcluded more where it is actually useful" than "this campaignbox is of limited practical usefulness for navigation". Of course it's useless for navigation if it's underused, but that implies to me that navigation is lacking and it should be used more.
- The point about the length and cumbersomeness of a campaignbox is fair, and I don't really have good ideas for it aside from culling those articles which aren't warranted for inclusion as established by a reliable source. Other campaignboxes have attempted to resolve the issue with collapsible "sub-campaignboxes" within the already-collapsible campaignboxes. I hate this solution, personally. Whether the sub-campaignboxes should be organised by (arbitrary) campaign linkage, geographical region/theatre or year is usually going to be pure original research or synthesis. In one example that is to my knowledge fairly unique, two campaignboxes which are typically seen in scholarship as separate but directly connected sequentially have direct links to each other. I wouldn't know better for a "maximum links before it becomes too long" limit, but though 50 links is as good a ballpark as any, I wouldn't want that to be binding in a campaignbox where 52 links are justified and necessary for completeness.
- For point (a) I... honestly don't know if any policy gives priority to desktop or mobile use for Wikipedia, actually? And no idea where we'd find that. For point (b) I don't know if my experience is representative either, but I specifically rely on campaignboxes because they don't contain more information than what's needed to jump from one article to the other (when I want to go from one battle to a related one in the same campaign, I don't need the full name, date, belligerents or results, I just want to get from A to B!). And I think that's because lists serve a purpose beyond navigation, as a summary of information (again, going back to WP:About's first principle) and that's why they exist on their own merit in article namespace, whereas campaignboxes are purely and solely navigational, not information in their own right. In an ideal world both list and campaignbox would exist where both of their uses are warranted. Benjitheijneb (talk) 19:53, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Template:Campaignbox:
This template does not display in the mobile view of Wikipedia; it is desktop only. See Template:Navbox visibility for a brief explanation.
- Well, going back to Wikipedia's first principles appeals to the philosophiser in me, but the real beauty of Wikipedia is that as you say, there's always a chance discussions like these can inform/update changes to those policies and guidelines too. That alone would make it worth the several paragraphs debating them!
- @Benjitheijneb You're welcome! I appreciate your elaborate response in return.
Templates using the classes class=navbox
({{navbox}}) or class=nomobile
({{sidebar}}) are not displayed in article space on the mobile web site of English Wikipedia. Mobile page views account for approximately 68% of all page views (90-day average as of September 2024[update]). Briefly, these templates are not included in articles because 1) they are not well designed for mobile, and 2) they significantly increase page sizes—bad for mobile downloads—in a way that is not useful for the mobile use case. You can review/watch phab:T124168 for further discussion.
- In short, campaignboxes and other navboxes are invisible in the mobile view, so we are only designing campaignboxes and navboxes for desktop users. And desktop users will (almost certainly) have a keyboard and a mouse to navigate any List of Spanish colonial campaigns list article that we could theoretically converted this campaignbox into. They don't have to use their thumb to "scroll down a lot", as mobile users must (because they can't see and use campaignboxes for navigation anyway). There are so many ways to quickly navigate a list article in desktop view that a long but details-lacking, poorly-scoped, unsourced, WP:OR-ridden, and template creep-prone campaignbox like this can never hope to compete with. NLeeuw (talk) 22:20, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry for the delay in responding.
- I agree that many of the wars, campaigns, battles, and others are not Spanish colonial campaigns, which is why I suggested restoring a previous version which was much shorter and had more transclusions per link. This infobox was recently changed and now looks more like a campaignbox of conflicts involving "Spain" rather than a campaignbox of Spanish colonial campaigns.
- I think the biggest disadvantages of campaignboxes are that sources cannot be cited and that it is not accessible on mobile devices. But this is a general problem, affecting all campaignboxes, not just these ones. Still, I think that if there are one or more links that should not be in a campaignbox, they can be discussed on the talk page of the template.
- There are many wars, such as the Eighty Years' War, that have their own lists, campaignboxes and categories coexisting at the same time and I don't think it's a problem because lists are more suitable for showing infomation while campaignboxes are more suitable for navigating between related articles. I also want to share my personal experience and it's pretty much everything Benjitheijneb said: I use campaignboxes to navigate between related articles, the fact that they are smaller and have much less information than a list is what makes it navigable. RobertJohnson35 – talk 21:02, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- @RobertJohnson35 Thanks for your belated reply, I appreciate it! As a matter of fact, I agree with a lot of what you say. I'm a major contributor to lists, campaignboxes and categories about the Eighty Years' War. Template:Campaignbox Eighty Years' War (7% of which is my text) currently has about 200 links, which is many more than the "50" I proposed above, so I'm feeling a bit of a hypocrite right now haha. ;) In my defence, or rather the campaignbox' defence, there is a pretty strong consensus that the Eighty Years' War was a single "war".
If you're really, really interested...
|
---|
...there has been an academic discussion amongst Dutch historians between about the 1960s and 2010s that there is something wrong with the term "Eighty Years' War", and we should consider the 1609 to 1648 period a separate "war", and that there was one or were two preceding "wars" or periods of "war" or "revolt" between 1566/8 and 1609, but because ultimately nobody could agree where to draw the lines and what to call each period, most scholars have defaulted back to agreeing that the whole 1566/8 to 1648 period was a single "war". There has been a looong discussion about this on Dutch Wikipedia, which I can link to if you'd like to read it all. |
- On the other hand, there is no argument that I know of that suggests that "Spain" or the "Spanish Empire" was in a nearly constant state of military colonial campaigning from 1213 to 2012. Even the 7 March 2025 version which you suggested restoring claims a nearly constant state of military colonial campaigning from 1402 to 1975. There is no thematic link between all these articles, except that "Spain" or the "Spanish Empire" was one of the belligerents, and that the conflicts took place outside Europe and European waters. That's an improvement from the current campaignbox, which broadens that scope to all conflicts outside the Iberian Peninsula (including the rest of Europe and European waters), but not much. How is this different from Template:Campaignbox Portuguese battles in the Indian Ocean (which everyone, including you, agreed to delete)? The only criteria were that Portugal was one of the belligerents, and that the conflicts took place somewhere, anywhere, in the Indian Ocean, regardless of time, exact place, enemies, allies, co-belligerents, historical and military context, etc. We all agreed that that was not good enough, and so we deleted it.
- I think a good campaignbox looks something like Template:Campaignbox Mediterranean Campaign of 1793-1796. A clear scope with a main article and interconnected battle articles, not to long, very useful for navigation. Would you agree? NLeeuw (talk) 22:58, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- PS: I'd like to point out that Template:Campaignbox Spanish colonial campaigns (~600 links), Template:Campaignbox Spanish-Ottoman wars (~116 links) and Template:Campaignbox Ottoman–Habsburg Wars (~64 links) have sooo much WP:OVERLAP that they have become a major source of template creep. I randomly clicked on the page Siege of Oran (1556), only to find an article containing just 116 words, and then an avalanche of these three campainboxes PLUS Template:Major Ottoman sieges (~113 links) at the bottom. That means that these 4 campaignboxes/navboxes contain a total of about 893 links (many of them duplicates) to other articles in an article that itself has just 116 words. This not a Wikipedia article anymore, it has become a template dumping ground. Maybe it's time address this template creep? I agree campaignboxes can have a lot of value, and there are no easy solutions, but surely something needs to be done. NLeeuw (talk) 23:19, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
I think a good campaignbox looks something like Template:Campaignbox Mediterranean Campaign of 1793-1796. A clear scope with a main article and interconnected battle articles, not to long, very useful for navigation. Would you agree?
It does, but it is also a formally-defined theatre of a single formally-defined war within a formally-defined series of wars with a fortuitously small number of engagements to include (21 by my count). It is easy and obvious to make that into a good campaignbox. But that doesn't mean that others don't have value. Like, I know on a common-sense level (even if I can't source it off the top of my head) that the 1497 Conquest of Melilla and the 1507 Battle of Mers-el-Kébir are intimately connected as part of the same wave of campaigns, even though they have entirely different belligerents and regions (Castile vs. Habsburg Spain, Wattasids vs. Tlemcen, Morocco vs. Algeria), and that it is useful for a reader wishing to learn about one would also find the other informative. There is an argument that there should be easier navigation between them (they arguably need the campaignbox for that more than a "formal" war does, where the war's article will likely provide links to many/most/all related battles in-text), and a strong reason to believe scholarship would support a connection between them despite being on-paper separate. Guidelines are used to define how far into grey areas templates can diverge before they are no longer acceptable. They shouldn't be defined by nice neat examples which fit comfortably outside grey areas. Benjitheijneb (talk) 14:46, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2025 (UTC)- A novel thought: why shouldn't campaignboxes - and indeed all navboxes - be possible to add citations to? (Perhaps not mandatorily, but optionally where the navbox has been questioned, like this one). They could be hidden in the template under noinclude, since their point would be to justify the template's scope existing from a behind-the-scenes perspective to Wikipedia guideline interpretation, not to make the navbox a source of information to the reader. It's not a current practice, but since WP:NAV-RELATED does demand a level of sourcing for it, it does seem like doing so would align with WP:IGNORE and WP:COMMONSENSE guidance.
- I definitely do not think that mobile viewers being unable to view a campaignbox makes a difference on arguing for or against any campaignbox existing. Both are decisions made to maximise ease of navigation, but compromising to accommodate different mediums. Visible campaignboxes on mobile devices would be awful for navigation and accessibility due to their size on small screens; either way, navigation is a little harder by default, and nobody can really fix that. But there's no reason to make desktop users suffer without a navigation tool that is appropriate for desktop on principle.
- Though as @NLeeuw points out, the older version of the template is better but still faces the same issues. I also again point out that large time and regime jumps - like treating the Crown of Castille as synonymous with Spain - are highly suspect. You could possibly provide an argument - and more importantly, sources - for a Template:Castilian colonial campaigns in Africa, showing scholarly opinion that they share more in common than simply one belligerent and one broad geographic region. But you'd be hard-pressed to find one which acknowledges that it shares more than those two characteristics with the Rif War. Benjitheijneb (talk) 14:23, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for your two thoughtful responses, I appreciate it. I'd like to take some time to re-read all arguments so far, and then think of how to reply.
- Right now, I'm leaning towards doing 3 things
- Restoring the 7 March 2025 version of this campaignbox for now (which we three seem to agree was at least better than it is now);
- Drafting a guideline for campaignboxes in general in order to centralise all these little snippets of policies, guidelines, conventions and manuals of style in order to WP:CENTRALise future discussions;
- Separately, I might draft an essay on why I think that, in some cases, it is better to listify certain categories or templates than to delete or keep them. That way, I can refer to it, and don't have to explain it every time it comes up. (This will be a work in progress, first little more than a note-to-self, but eventually I think it can become helpful in recurring discussions at CfD and TfD).
- No. #2 is probably most important. This discussion, while interesting, has become a lot more complicated than it has to be if we had a centralised guideline with core principles that we all agreed on. The fact that we do not, means that it is very difficult to focus the discussion and reach consensus. I'm very glad to see that there is a willingness to reach agreement or compromise; we are just hindered by the lack of a clear framework to help us reach it. That means we were probably not ready to discuss these campaignboxes yet. And I probably shouldn't have nominated so many simultaneously.
Anyway, let me think about it a bit more. NLeeuw (talk) 16:05, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- PS: @RobertJohnson35 rightfully compared Template:Campaignbox Spanish colonial campaigns to Template:Campaignbox Eighty Years' War (which I've contributed to myself). My answer to that is that we should probably split it up according to the various periods the main article has been split up in during the major overhaul in late 2022, which I spearheaded. The relevant comparison was how the main article for Hundred Years' War had been split up in three phases (Edwardian, Caroline, and Lancastrian) plus related conflicts; I see now that they've done the same with the campaignboxes:
- Template:Campaignbox Edwardian War Edwardian phase (1337–1360)
- Template:Campaignbox Caroline War Caroline phase (1369–1389)
- Template:Campaignbox Lancastrian War Lancastrian phase (1415–1453)
- Spillover:
- Template:Campaignbox Breton War of Succession (1341–1365)
- Template:Campaignbox Castilian Civil War (1351–1369)
- Template:Campaignbox War of the Two Peters (1356–1369), just 2 battles though.
- Template:Campaignbox Portuguese Crisis 1383-1385
- Template:Campaignbox Glyndŵr rebellion (1400–1415)
- I am perfectly willing to split up Template:Campaignbox Eighty Years' War into 1 main one and 10 smaller ones for the periods I myself wrote the period articles.
- Similarly, if we decide to restore the 7 March 2025 version of Template:Campaignbox Spanish colonial campaigns, might it be a good next step to split it by century? The result would be 6 smaller, more easily usable campaignboxes for the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th century. (Since the Crowns of Castile and Aragon were formally united during the War of the Castilian Succession of 1475–79, I won't be too picky about the fact that the Castilian Conquest of the Canary Islands began before and ended after the union, nor that the battles of Santa Cruz de la Mar Pequeña (1478) and Guinea (1478) took place just before the union was formally recognised in 1479). Pragmatically, I am willing to overlook the fact that the criteria for location (outside Europe) and opposing forces (anyone) are very loose, just because the campaignboxes become a lot smaller in practice. For me, this could be an acceptable compromise. NLeeuw (talk) 17:21, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Benjitheijneb YES! Template:Campaignbox End of Han and Template:Campaignbox Three Kingdoms splitting at the year 220 and linking to each other is a great solution! I was thinking of something similar for the campaignboxes Spanish colonial campaigns by century. But I was worried about setting a "bad" precedent. You have reminded me of a good precedent.
This might be the key to reaching a lot of agreement. NLeeuw (talk) 17:38, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- I started drafting a 'guideline' (which I'm labelling an 'essay' for now) at User:Nederlandse Leeuw/Campaignboxes. It seeks to combine and concisely summarise all the policies, guidelines, conventions and essays etc. that we invoked during this discussion, and more. I'm not sure what will be the result, but at the moment I'm thinking that all or some of this will need to be incorporated into MOS:CAMPAIGN, the only official guideline of 2 sentences about campaignboxes, that is very vague, but pretty much the only firm rules specifically for campaignboxes that have ever been written down. We'll see where this goes. I'm very open to suggestions, additions, corrections, anything. NLeeuw (talk) 00:01, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think it's a bad idea, but I don't really find it neccessary and it might be too many campaignboxes. Perhaps we could divide the template by periods of Spain? Like the Transtamara era, Habsburg era, Bourbon era, Francoist era, etc, although it might be less confusing and easier to divide it by centuries, whatever you think is best.
- About the WP:OVERLAP, I agree with you that it's a problem, do you have any ideas to solve this? The only solution I see is to separate the Ottoman-Habsburg Wars from the Spanish-Ottoman Wars. I mean, not including the Campaignbox Habsburg-Ottoman Wars in articles that only include Habsburg Spain to reduce the number of campaignboxes in an article. The only problem is that there are articles in which both would still coincide, like in the Algiers expedition (1541). Let me know what you think. RobertJohnson35 – talk 22:48, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- It's a good question. My first incling would be to look for which war the Algiers expedition (1541) would fit in. That answer might not be easy to find in English Wikipedia. E.g. apparently it's not Habsburg–Ottoman war of 1540–1547, because that was apparently all only in the Balkans, Kingdom of Hungary (according to the infobox), even though the belligerents are the same. The article itself states: Charles V made considerable preparations for the expedition, wishing to obtain revenge for the recent Siege of Buda (1541), which definitely was part of the Habsburg–Ottoman war of 1540–1547, so perhaps the theatre of that war should be broadened?
- It's certainly not Ottoman–Venetian War (1537–1540), because even though it once again pitted the Spanish Empire and the Regency of Algiers against each other in the Mediterranean, Venice signed peace with the Ottomans on 2 October 1540, so Algiers expedition (1541) can't be part of it anymore. It's not part of Ottoman–Portuguese conflicts (1538–1560) either, because Spain and Algiers weren't involved and it wasn't in the Mediterranean. Etc.
- But perhaps in Turkish, Spanish, German or Hungarian Wikipedia? Sure enough, trwiki has a main article tr:1515-1577 Osmanlı-İspanya Savaşı (1515–1577 Ottoman-Spanish War). eswiki also writes that es:Jornada de Argel was
Parte de guerra hispano-otomana de 1515-1577
(part of the Hispano-Ottoman War of 1515–1577), but it has no main article. Etc. NLeeuw (talk) 00:30, 1 June 2025 (UTC)- Dewiki enlights little more. de:Algier only briefly mentions The state of war with the Western powers gave piracy the formal legitimacy of the privateering customary in war. The attempts of the European powers to conquer the city and put a stop to piracy failed. In 1541, Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Spain, sent his troops against Algiers. He failed, as did the Danes in 1770 and Spain with its army in 1775. So rather than "revenge for the siege of Buda in 1541" (which Spain was not involved in), Charles V apparently attacked Algiers in order to put an end to piracy/privateering (which I find more likely). Meanwhile, de:Türkenkriege connects the failed 1541 Spanish Algiers expedition to the 1535 Spanish conquest of Tunis: Pirate fleets allied with the Ottomans undertook raids against Spanish and Italian coastal towns in the 16th century. For its part, Habsburg Spain undertook campaigns against the Ottoman Empire and its vassals in North Africa and conquered Tunis in 1535, while the conquest of Algiers failed in 1541. As with the Venetian case, the best way to look for a proper scope to a war or campaign is to find a peace treaty that ended a war. NLeeuw (talk) 00:44, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Benjitheijneb YES! Template:Campaignbox End of Han and Template:Campaignbox Three Kingdoms splitting at the year 220 and linking to each other is a great solution! I was thinking of something similar for the campaignboxes Spanish colonial campaigns by century. But I was worried about setting a "bad" precedent. You have reminded me of a good precedent.
- PS: @RobertJohnson35 rightfully compared Template:Campaignbox Spanish colonial campaigns to Template:Campaignbox Eighty Years' War (which I've contributed to myself). My answer to that is that we should probably split it up according to the various periods the main article has been split up in during the major overhaul in late 2022, which I spearheaded. The relevant comparison was how the main article for Hundred Years' War had been split up in three phases (Edwardian, Caroline, and Lancastrian) plus related conflicts; I see now that they've done the same with the campaignboxes:
- As this is is a navbox that goes under the infobox, the use of the full width tfd template pushers the article lede a long way down the screen - for example on Rif War any content other than the infobox is off the screen. Can someone fix this please. We shouldn't break articles for the reader when we are nominating templates for deletion - even if it is only for a limited period of time.Nigel Ish (talk) 21:11, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Nigel Ish Moved to Rif War#See also for now per WP:LEADSIDEBAR. Feel free to do this in any other article where you find the notification annoying. NLeeuw (talk) 22:01, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Comment As promised, I've also created a new essay on listification, see User:Nederlandse Leeuw/Listification. It's still under construction, but it contains all the basics. In short: if there is ever strong doubt about whether all the battle articles really belong together in a campaignbox, listification might sometimes be a good solution. It doesn't necessarily apply in this case, but I expect to see this a lot at TFD and CFD. NLeeuw (talk) 23:59, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Reformat as a navbox. There is a slight conflict between MOS:CAMPAIGN, in which it would not be permitted, and the template documentation which parenthetically states:
or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars
[emphasis added]. While the template doc is more permissive it also indicates that it may or may not be approriate and the guidance takes precedence. Considering this in balance and the length of this particular sidebar, it would be more appropriate to present this info as a navbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:13, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. There is also a lot of WP:OR/WP:SYNTH going on, such as framing Albigensian Crusade as a "Franco-Spanish war" even though "Spain" didn't exist yet. Follow-up to:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish colonial conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish anti-piracy actions: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 30#Template:Christianization of Finland: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 2#Template:Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 10#Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts: Deleted. NLeeuw (talk) 17:51, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
Deleteper nom. Vestrian24Bio 12:58, 23 May 2025 (UTC)- Keep per Template:Campaignbox/doc:
The campaignbox template [is] intended to provide context and convenient navigation among articles on the battles in a campaign, front, theater or war (or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars).
We can remove all the conflicts from before the formation of Spain and those for which there are no sources that say they are Franco-Spanish wars. RobertJohnson35 – talk 15:38, 23 May 2025 (UTC) - Keep and trim, the better analogy here is Template:Campaignbox Anglo-French wars. Both serve similar functions in aiding navigation among related articles, Franco-Spanish War also provides navigation but it is not as convenient. 204.111.137.20 (talk) 21:08, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- How would you "trim" it? NLeeuw (talk) 15:45, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- The Albigensian Crusade is not a particularly helpful entry, I'd have to go back through to give more detail, but that conversation is best had at Template talk:Campaignbox Franco-Spanish wars 204.111.137.20 (talk) 16:34, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Oh, that's helpful. I didn't see it had been nominated for deletion before in 2019. I should have looked at that. NLeeuw (talk) 17:43, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- The Albigensian Crusade is not a particularly helpful entry, I'd have to go back through to give more detail, but that conversation is best had at Template talk:Campaignbox Franco-Spanish wars 204.111.137.20 (talk) 16:34, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- How would you "trim" it? NLeeuw (talk) 15:45, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom Riad Salih (talk) 13:58, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Question Pinging @Srnec: Hi, could I ask your French history specialist opinion on this proposal? Below, you said about Template:Campaignbox Russo-French Wars: None of the wars listed at Franco-Russian War are primarily Franco-Russian wars, so on what article would this template be due? Useless for navigation because there is nowhere it should be used. We cannot weigh down every multilateral conflict article with multiple bilateral conflict templates like this. I think those are very good points, which I, as nom, should have mentioned in my rationale. Would you agree that your points also apply in the case of Franco-Spanish War, and thus this Template:Campaignbox Franco-Spanish wars? (There are a few possible exceptions, such as Franco-Spanish War (1635–1659), but otherwise it seems to be a very similar situation). Good day, NLeeuw (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- Moot: reach a consensus at WT:MILHIST on the usage of campaignboxes first. Vestrian24Bio 09:29, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Back to draft There is a slight conflict between MOS:CAMPAIGN, in which it would not be permitted, and the template documentation which parenthetically states:
or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars
[emphasis added]. While the template doc is more permissive it also indicates that it may or may not be approriate and the guidance takes precedence. There are a number of issues here such as the anachronistic inclusions (pre Spain) and using years falls to WP:EASTEREGG. Upon addressing these issues, it is still probably more appropriate to present this info as a navbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:39, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish colonial conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish anti-piracy actions: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 30#Template:Christianization of Finland: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 2#Template:Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 10#Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- NLeeuw (talk) 17:32, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Spanish–Ottoman wars is a template created by spliting Ottoman–Habsburg wars one in it's Mediterranean theater. Nor to mention that legally the Spanish-Ottoman war declared by Charles I at the start of XVI century never ended until a formal peace treaty was done in 1782 at the time of Charles IV of Spain. So all those conflicts are completely related as campaigns and theaters of a 3 century war Sr L (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Obviously. The House of Habsburg and the Ottoman Empire were constantly, uninterruptedly, ongoing, continuously, unendingly, without break or pause, at war with each other 24/7 for 300 years. Peace treaty? What is that?[Joke]
- Kidding aside, this campaignbox simply does not conform to MOS:CAMPAIGN. NLeeuw (talk) 18:13, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- I find the split necessary. The conflict between Spain and the Ottomans stopped being part of the Ottoman-Habsburg wars when Spain ceased being ruled by the Habsburgs after the War of the Spanish Succession in 1714. Baal Nautes (talk) 15:59, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Wrong. per Template:Infobox_military_conflict it states the Campaignboxes may be used more rarely among plural campaigns or wars CR055H41RZ (talk) 16:56, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- There were only truces since the start of war durinng Empire of Charles V era, but never a formal peace treaty until Treaty of Karlowitz for Austrian Habsburg and Treaty of Constantinople [es] for Hispanic Monarchy (under Bourbons at that time). And even then, there were a bit of successive conflicts until Napoleonic era. Sr L (talk) 06:05, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- Even if you were wrong, the template documentation admits multiple wars or campaigns in a single campaignbox, so there's no reason to delete it anyway. RobertJohnson35 – talk 12:48, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- Spanish–Ottoman wars is a template created by spliting Ottoman–Habsburg wars one in it's Mediterranean theater. Nor to mention that legally the Spanish-Ottoman war declared by Charles I at the start of XVI century never ended until a formal peace treaty was done in 1782 at the time of Charles IV of Spain. So all those conflicts are completely related as campaigns and theaters of a 3 century war Sr L (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
Deleteper nom. Vestrian24Bio 12:58, 23 May 2025 (UTC)- Keep per Template:Campaignbox/doc:
The campaignbox template [is] intended to provide context and convenient navigation among articles on the battles in a campaign, front, theater or war (or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars).
RobertJohnson35 – talk 15:13, 23 May 2025 (UTC) - Keep for reasons given by RobertJohnson35. Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:14, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Moot: reach a consensus at WT:MILHIST on the usage of campaignboxes first. Vestrian24Bio 09:28, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Reformat as a navbox. There is a slight conflict between MOS:CAMPAIGN, in which it would not be permitted, and the template documentation which parenthetically states:
or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars
[emphasis added]. While the template doc is more permissive it also indicates that it may or may not be approriate and the guidance takes precedence. Considering this in balance and the length of this particular sidebar, it would be more appropriate to present this info as a navbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:34, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish colonial conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 31#Template:Campaignbox Swedish anti-piracy actions: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 March 30#Template:Christianization of Finland: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 2#Template:Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 10#Template:Campaignbox Russo–German conflicts: Deleted.
- NLeeuw (talk) 17:31, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- The Franco-Russian Wars fullfy the same conditions like other templates concerning geopolitical rivalries between 2 militar powers (which constitutes a particular conflict), like Anglo-Spanish War or Anglo-French Wars Sr L (talk) 18:12, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Oppose as per @Sr L(talk). Leutha (talk) 18:59, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:54, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Vestrian24Bio 12:57, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep Excellent way of browsing French-Russian conflicts. --Yabroq (talk) 22:51, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. Useful for navigation. Velociraptor888 (talk) 19:52, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:14, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. None of the wars listed at Franco-Russian War are primarily Franco-Russian wars, so on what article would this template be due? Useless for navigation because there is nowhere it should be used. We cannot weigh down every multilateral conflict article with multiple bilateral conflict templates like this. Srnec (talk) 01:03, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- The Wars held by both French Empires against Russia are Good articles to use the template, also specific campaign of European Conflicts during Bourbon era, in which French and Russian forces were involved directly due to the polítics of alliance hostiles between them 38.25.9.253 (talk) 08:57, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Srnec makes very good points. As nom, I should have mentioned this in my rationale. NLeeuw (talk) 16:10, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- The Wars held by both French Empires against Russia are Good articles to use the template, also specific campaign of European Conflicts during Bourbon era, in which French and Russian forces were involved directly due to the polítics of alliance hostiles between them 38.25.9.253 (talk) 08:57, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Reformat as a navbox. There is a slight conflict between MOS:CAMPAIGN, in which it would not be permitted, and the template documentation which parenthetically states:
or, more rarely, among several campaigns or wars
[emphasis added]. While the template doc is more permissive it also indicates that it may or may not be approriate and the guidance takes precedence. While this sidebar is not particularly long, it is still probably more appropriate to present this info as a navbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:41, 5 June 2025 (UTC)
This is a redundant template with very low likelihood of usage and all relevant article links covered by Template:Administrative divisions of Taiwan. The intended aim of the navbox seems to be to list historic ROC provinces, but most if not all of those have very short histories already covered by modern PRC provinces (Template:Province-level divisions of China). Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:31, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Kept: Not really redundant, as there are independent, existed articles of former provinces linked through this template, especially for the Northern and Northeastern provinces that were abolished or changed by the Communist government after 1949, and not included in other Navboxes. The question of whether to merge those articles should be a different topic.—— Eric Liu(Talk・Guestbook) 02:39, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Merge navboxes is a better option I think. Vestrian24Bio 12:04, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:01, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
- Template:EngvarB (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
This discussion is to deprecate Template:EngvarB, not to delete, merge or rename it. I am proposing this after discussion at Template talk:EngvarB#Proposal to deprecate or rename this template and subsequent activity on that talk page.
Template:EngvarB is used by the Wikipedia:EngvarB script to maintain consistent spelling within articles. Template:EngvarB states "deprecated: for non-specific but not North American spelling".
Template:EngvarB should not usually be added to new articles. If necessary, a specific language tag such as Template:Use New Zealand English should be added. In the absence of strong national ties WP:TIES, the article can be tagged with whatever variety of English it currently uses. Therefore, Template:EngvarB should be marked deprecated to warn editors that better alternatives exist.
It could be argued that the template is useful to help categorise articles that do not have strong national ties, and are written in a non-specific but not North American English. The template is apparently helpful to the EngvarB script, and isn't doing any harm. This may be so, but deprecating it would also be helpful, in the majority of cases, to warn editors that better alternatives exist. Deprecation is not deletion. cagliost (talk) 05:43, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Note: There is an informal project going on at Template talk:EngvarB (1, 2, 3) to replace uses of EngvarB with specific language tags, where possible. No one has raised any objections to this project, nor do I think anyone could. This project is made harder by new articles being created and tagged with EngvarB. More work is created, to identify national WP:TIES if any, and re-tag the article. Deprecation would help here, so articles would be created with the correct tag in the first place. cagliost (talk) 05:53, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Already deprecated: An issue here is that sometimes it's not obvious which variety to tag with, just because something uses what might be called British, Commonwealth or International English. (Another issue is that the templates are possibly misnamed: they are used almost completely if not completely as
{{Use Fooian spelling}}
.) All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:28, 27 May 2025 (UTC).- The template was previously deprecated, but this was removed. I want to restore the deprecation tag, to help educate and inform editors who might be tempted to incorrectly tag a new article with EngvarB even when MOS:TIES exist, that better alternatives are available.
- I don't want this discussion to get sidetracked into other issues. cagliost (talk) 08:20, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
Discussions like this don't belong in the backwoods, and it's not about what you want. While the backstory of the script is indeed WP:TIES, this template is a maintenance template meant to indicate when an article has been updated by the Engvar script. People who want to see it deleted or deprecated appear to be unaware of how it is linked to the workings of the script. Unlike Template:British English, it's purely for maintenance. It is harmless and has absolutely no effect on the reader experience. In case anyone is really interested, the nomenclature is simple: EngvarA through C reflect the three script buttons are indeed abbreviations for the 3 main codes present in WP: EngvarA is short of "American variety of English", EngvarB for British, and C for Canadian (X could be for Xanaduan, Y for Yemeni and Z for Zimbabwean). Even if deleted, I see no simple way of maintaining an article without either inserting this template or at least updating it. Therefore I would argue strongly that this ought to be kept. -- Ohc revolution of our times 06:49, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- "Even if deleted": This proposal is not for deletion. cagliost (talk) 12:09, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- Deprecate per nom. Vestrian24Bio 12:07, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Deprecate. In my personal observations of how I've seen this template used, this template seems confusingly named at the very least, and I would argue unclear in its purpose. Retro (talk | contribs) 16:10, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Deprecate per nom. Not very useful as named and confusing. 86.187.231.13 (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete after orphaning. That is, list at WP:Templates for discussion/Holding cell, so that we can systematically update all remaining transclusions before deletion. Deprecate as a second choice. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 21:04, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Deprecate and systematically either replace it with a valid {Use XX English} template per MOS:TIES or remove it, since Use Commonwealth English, which this template is basically a copy of, was deleted with consensus. Formal deprecation would also help us get some leverage to change scripts that may still be in use to apply this template incorrectly. Once it has been removed from all articles, it will be trivial to have a second TFD to delete it, so let's not worry about that now. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:30, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep I am the creator of the template and maintainer of the Engvar script. There is no consensus to render the code of English uniform across WP, so editors rely on this tool to impose some uniformity within article space. This template has been transcluded in tens of thousands of articles, and is closely linked to the script. While it is only visible when in edit mode, its deprecation will be detrimental to the maintenance of Commonwealth English variants within Wikipedia under one banner. Templates such as {{Use New Zealand English}} and
{{Use Papuan English}}
are equally meaningless to the working of the script. The act of deprecating the template will complicate the configuration of the script. In fact, it will force creating as many script buttons as there are{{Use Fooian spelling}}
templates in existence. -- Ohc revolution of our times 22:49, 28 May 2025 (UTC)- Another reason why EngvarB should be preferred over {{Use British English}} is inclusivity. EngvarC has been taken up by Canadian English, while British English is foundation for the spelling in many commonwealth countries. -- Ohc revolution of our times 07:37, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- While {{EngvarC}} redirects to {{Use Canadian English}}, I am not proposing to redirect {{EngvarB}} to {{Use British English}}. cagliost (talk) 12:00, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- While the approach works for Canadian and American English – and these are the only ones where it would work – {{EngvarB}} and the other "Use fooian English" templates serve different functions, in much the same way that swimwear isn't appropriate in the office and suits are unsuitable for swimming, so please don't conflate the issue. The ability to maintain depends on it being there even for all Commonwealth jurisdictions, and as such even deprecation is unhelpful. -- Ohc revolution of our times 19:02, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- You say above "EngvarB for British" but then "EngvarB should be preferred over {{Use British English}} [for] inclusivity." Which is it? cagliost (talk) 12:15, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- While {{EngvarC}} redirects to {{Use Canadian English}}, I am not proposing to redirect {{EngvarB}} to {{Use British English}}. cagliost (talk) 12:00, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- You seem to be saying the EngvarB script is quite limited, it does not support most varieties of English. cagliost (talk) 12:10, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- You've seen the issues created by having dozens of templates, based on nationalistic feelings. These are called things like
{{Use Fooian English}}
when they should probably be called{{Use Fooian English spelling}}
. - In fact in the encyclopaedic register, particularly in the words that the Engvar script considers, there is little difference in spelling between the EngvarB countries. It's not impossible that there is a nice solution to these issues which delivers what everyone wants. But to achieve that it's important that people are aware of the purpose and history of these templates. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 16:15, 29 May 2025 (UTC).
- You've seen the issues created by having dozens of templates, based on nationalistic feelings. These are called things like
- Another reason why EngvarB should be preferred over {{Use British English}} is inclusivity. EngvarC has been taken up by Canadian English, while British English is foundation for the spelling in many commonwealth countries. -- Ohc revolution of our times 07:37, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Cagliost: The script is as complex as it needs to be. {{EngvarB}} is a functional template; "EngvarB is shorthand for British Commonwealth". Rich has nailed it: The other "English_templates" are merely informative (and dig nationalist ghettoes). -- Ohc revolution of our times 19:02, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- From my perspective, if you want to streamline the templates, it would make more sense to redirect all the "English_templates" except for American and Canadian to {{EngvarB}} instead of the other way around, and eventually deprecating same. -- Ohc revolution of our times 19:21, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- "You've seen the issues created by having dozens of templates, based on nationalistic feelings". No, I haven't. Using different varieties of English on Wikipedia is not "nationalist ghettoes" but Wikipedia policy (WP:TITLEVAR, MOS:RETAIN, MOS:ENGVAR, "The English Wikipedia prefers no national variety over others"). This script, with EngvarA, B, C, seems like an attempt to enforce only a few varieties of English, against policy. There is no such thing as, "English variety B", and {{Use Commonwealth English}} was deleted with consensus. We are not obligated to keep Template:EngvarB around to help your script. If the script doesn't support other varieties of English, it is the script which should change. Even so, I am not proposing to delete Template:EngvarB, but to deprecate it, reflecting the fact that EngvarB should not be added to articles except in exceptional circumstances.
- If you wanted to "redirect all the English_templates except for American and Canadian to EngvarB" you would need a much more widely publicised discussion, and it would be unlikely to succeed. cagliost (talk) 21:59, 29 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Cagliost: Deprecating this template is retrograde, like throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. Far from being an attempt to enforce only a few varieties of English, against policy, the script and its partnering template were developed with WP:TIES and WP:COMMONALITY in mind. They bring much needed uniformity within any given article, and as a result we don't have to put up with inconsistent spelling – for example both "labor" and "labour"; "traveling" and "travelling" – within the same article. My guess is that the script has been run on quite a few miles north of a million articles. As I explained, putting {{EngvarB}} in the same basket as {{Use Ugandan English}} is like comparing "Apples and Pears" (or "Choux et Carottes", as the French would say)
. This "Groundhog day" scenario repeats rather annoyingly every few years when a new generation of editors comes along and misunderstands what the template is for and how its workings are intertwined with the script, and seeks to change things. I'm open to solutions to changing the script and template in a holistic and coherent revamp. However, in the absence of an alternative that works for both reader and script maintenance, I don't see at all how the need for EngvarB template will disappear. I'm getting the feeling that we are starting to go around in circles, so I won't flog the dead horse, and hope that you too will drop the dead donkey. -- Ohc revolution of our times 12:14, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- I believe that the reason this template keeps being nominated for deletion and deprecation is (1) its name, which does not comply with template naming guidelines, (2) the "clarification needed" notes and inaccurate text that existed and have existed in its documentation for many years, (3) the questions raised on the talk page that have gone unanswered for many years, (4) the fact that some script or process keeps getting it added inappropriately to articles that have clear MOS:TIES, and (5) the editor above who claims to be the maintainer of the EngvarB script does not respond to bug reports about the script, which applies this template in ways contrary to MOS:TIES and the script's own documentation. Something fundamental about this template is broken. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:21, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- The plot thickens! I think this version better reflects the original intention. The modifications that have been made to the doc since simply reflect what others may erroneously interpret or want of this template and may somewhat depart from the description of the mission. I ought to go and replace it.
-- Ohc revolution of our times 16:29, 31 May 2025 (UTC)
- The plot thickens! I think this version better reflects the original intention. The modifications that have been made to the doc since simply reflect what others may erroneously interpret or want of this template and may somewhat depart from the description of the mission. I ought to go and replace it.
- @Cagliost: Deprecating this template is retrograde, like throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. Far from being an attempt to enforce only a few varieties of English, against policy, the script and its partnering template were developed with WP:TIES and WP:COMMONALITY in mind. They bring much needed uniformity within any given article, and as a result we don't have to put up with inconsistent spelling – for example both "labor" and "labour"; "traveling" and "travelling" – within the same article. My guess is that the script has been run on quite a few miles north of a million articles. As I explained, putting {{EngvarB}} in the same basket as {{Use Ugandan English}} is like comparing "Apples and Pears" (or "Choux et Carottes", as the French would say)
- Keep. For all the reasons that Ohconfucius gives above. Above all it's a simple, efficient tool to identify the messy varieties of English. Tony (talk) 02:41, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep. As I have said many times, and as alluded to above, this template is vital for those articles written in something which might be loosely termed "British English", but which don't have ties to any specific country that uses that variant. Also, since templates like {{Use Tanzanian English}} have recently been deleted, what is an article pertaining to Tanzania supposed to be tagged with? "Use British English" doesn't cut it, that's like a colonial throw-back, implying that a country independent for more than 50 years is somehow simply speaking the language of its former colonial master. So we're left with EngvarB. My first choice, and something which Ohconfucius had been spearheading from around 10 years ago, would be to deprecate all of the {{Use British English}}, {{Use Australian English}} etc. templates and simply use {{EngvarB}} (perhaps renamed so it's more obvious what it means) in all of those pages. Recent changes have completely undone Ohconfucius's good work in this regard though, without a clear rationale as to why. — Amakuru (talk) 13:47, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- What good work? Questions go unanswered, bugs go unfixed, and Ohconfucius edited hundreds of articles in the last two days to remove a valid Use Sri Lankan English template and replace it with EngvarB, contrary to MOS:RETAIN and the templates' documentation. Very disruptive. I have asked Ohconfucius to disable the script until it can behave in a way that conforms to the documentation. It is extremely frustrating. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:01, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with Jonesey95. This script is making disruptive edits (1, 2, 3), contrary to MOS:RETAIN. Scripts are not "official", users must take personal responsibility for their edits. cagliost (talk) 07:02, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- I'll cosign the "rename if kept" bandwagon; WP:TG is clear that
Template function should be clear from the template name
. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:48, 3 June 2025 (UTC) - This is a bit ad hom. Better to discuss that issue with the editor directly. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 18:48, 4 June 2025 (UTC).
- What good work? Questions go unanswered, bugs go unfixed, and Ohconfucius edited hundreds of articles in the last two days to remove a valid Use Sri Lankan English template and replace it with EngvarB, contrary to MOS:RETAIN and the templates' documentation. Very disruptive. I have asked Ohconfucius to disable the script until it can behave in a way that conforms to the documentation. It is extremely frustrating. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:01, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
Two users have argued above for replacing all Use British, Australian, etc English templates with {{EngvarB}}. That is strictly irrelevant to this discussion, and would need a much more publicised discussion. cagliost (talk) 07:26, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Redirect to Template:Use British English (since I always assumed the B stood for British). The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 13:52, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Deprecate per Jonesey95. We do not need articles tagged with {{EngvarB}} and {{Use XXX English}} that would be even more confusing as there are slightly different spellings between them so which one would you choose? Once an article is tagged with a specific variant then {{EngvarB}} should be removed and not be reapplied. Keith D (talk) 15:06, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- Keep (With no prejudice against renaming) This is not as simple as people would like. How am I to tag Australia-New Zealand relations without
{{EngvarB}}
? All the best: Rich Farmbrough 18:39, 4 June 2025 (UTC).
- Template:CompUnits (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
No transclusions. No incoming links to explain why it was created. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:03, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:03, 17 April 2025 (UTC)
- Keep, I've restored at least one usage as it was intended for after someone apparently violated MOS:COMPUNITS and edited NTFS (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) to include units that aren't allowed by the MOS. The template is designed to provide a consistent way to include a footnote in articles where such units may be ambiguous. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:46, 20 April 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Creates confusion. --Zac67 (talk) 08:16, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
per nom
, the nominator brought it here because it was not in use at the time of nomination. It is now in use, so yourDelete
is now on the basis of...?Creates confusion.
It does the opposite by providing a clean footnote to show readers what the unit values mean in use in an article. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:37, 21 April 2025 (UTC)- @Locke Cole: A single active use of the template doesn't heal the problem. The template causes confusion as it does not clarify that the meaning of k/K, M, G etc depends on context. --Zac67 (talk) 11:51, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
The template causes confusion as it does not clarify that the meaning of k/K, M, G etc depends on context.
It is used to indicate what the values for the units are within an entire article, hence why it is used in a footnote.A single active use of the template doesn't heal the problem.
So you agree, it should be used in more articles. Are you volunteering to help? —Locke Cole • t • c 14:56, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Locke Cole: A single active use of the template doesn't heal the problem. The template causes confusion as it does not clarify that the meaning of k/K, M, G etc depends on context. --Zac67 (talk) 11:51, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. Where necessary a handmade note is sufficient. Izno (talk) 22:50, 22 April 2025 (UTC)
- I do think there’s something to be said for being consistent in how we present these units… —Locke Cole • t • c 01:21, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
- Merge into {{convert}} which seems to be missing comp-mem-units? Then the presentation can be the standard CONVERT presentation; and conversions could be done with non-"1" values -- 65.92.246.77 (talk) 17:49, 2 May 2025 (UTC)#
- I don't think this has the same function. However a more generic template might be useful. However however have you seen how complex
{{Convert}}
is now? All the best: Rich Farmbrough 11:18, 2 June 2025 (UTC).
- I don't think this has the same function. However a more generic template might be useful. However however have you seen how complex
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Thoughts on merging?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 04:02, 25 May 2025 (UTC)
- Delete: used on a single-page only, created nearly 3 years ago; unnecessary template. Vestrian24Bio 08:48, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep: looks like it could be useful. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 11:08, 2 June 2025 (UTC).
- Note: I have set
|type=tiny
as this is an inline template. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 11:15, 2 June 2025 (UTC).
- Template:Wikicite (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:SfnRef inline (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Propose merging Template:Wikicite with Template:SfnRef inline.
{{SfnRef inline}} and {{wikicite}} both allow the shortened footnotes created by Module:Footnotes to link to a full citation that is either handwritten or transcluding a template that does not yet create an anchor for short citations.
Wikicite can:
- Be placed after the full citation.
- Wrap around the full citation which creates popup tooltips on mouseover and highlights the full citation when clicked, similar to standard references.
SfnRef inline can:
- Be placed after the full citation.
I am proposing a merge rather than a redirect because SfnRef inline also:
- Has the more clear name and should likely be the post-merge title. Wikicite's partner template {{wikiref}}, was deleted 15 years ago because it was never widely used.
- Accepts the same numerical parameters as Module:Footnotes does in more common templates like {{sfn}}, {{harv}}, {{sfnp}}, and so on.
- Has more clear documentation.
Both templates have the same code in their sandbox and testcases. If you have a "harv" errors script installed, you should be able to quickly see the differences in anchor creation on the testcases below. If you don't have any error script for shortened footnotes, you'll need to click the links in the "Short citations for testing examples below" to see the difference.
Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 13:40, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
- I don't think that placing either of these after the full citation can be correct. For accessibility reasons, if nothing else, the emitted anchor should really be before the citation; and that is what happens when
{{wikicite}}
uses its|reference=
parameter to enclose the full citation. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:13, 10 May 2025 (UTC)- @Redrose64, that's a good point, and one of many things to address in the documentation. It wouldn't affect how the transcluded template is written, though, would it? Rjjiii (talk) 00:49, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
- Regarding
2. Wrap around the full citation which creates popup tooltips on mouseover and highlights the full citation when clicked, similar to standard references.
, will this be lost with this merge? I'm rather a fan of this feature, so I wouldn't be thrilled to see it go. – Michael Aurel (talk) 01:17, 11 May 2025 (UTC)- @Michael Aurel, it will not be lost; the feature would be added to {{SfnRef inline}}. Check out the sandbox examples at Template:Wikicite/testcases. The merge would result in both of the below options to wrap the full citation:
{{wikicite |ref={{sfnref|Buchanan|2023}} |reference=Buchanan, Abigail. (14 November 2023). "We are making bagpipes sexy again: Inside the late Queen's beloved Scottish music school". ''[[The Daily Telegraph]]'') }}
{{wikicite|Buchanan|2023 |reference=Buchanan, Abigail. (14 November 2023). "We are making bagpipes sexy again: Inside the late Queen's beloved Scottish music school". ''[[The Daily Telegraph]]'') }}
- Rjjiii (talk) 01:55, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
- Great, thanks for the clarification. No issues in my book, then. – Michael Aurel (talk) 02:05, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Michael Aurel, it will not be lost; the feature would be added to {{SfnRef inline}}. Check out the sandbox examples at Template:Wikicite/testcases. The merge would result in both of the below options to wrap the full citation:
- Support merger, in every respect discussed above. This is a +5 Plan of Goodness. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:16, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- Comment: I suggest to merge the other way:
{{SfnRef inline}}
->{{Wikicite}}
because a) the former has less than a dozen transclusions, the latter >2200; b) the name part "inline" doesn't describe how Wikicite is used, which is in the "Sources" section of articles, along with standard specific citation template, like{{Cite book}}
,{{Cite journal}}
. Checking 2 articles that use{{SfnRef inline}}
, it's used there also in that section, not inline. The suggested new functionality of separating the citation anchor from the citation itself is a step backwards. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:04, 14 May 2025 (UTC)- @Michael Bednarek, thanks for the response. To better understand your positions, are you saying:
- That the merged template should be titled {{wikicite}} or something similar to {{Cite book}}? For transparency, there was another rarely used template called Template:Cite plain.
- That the merged template should continue to support wrapping the full citation, or that it should only support wrapping the full citation and existing transclusions of {{SfnRef inline}} should be converted to the
{{wikicite|ref=}}
format?
- Rjjiii (talk) 03:46, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- 1.: Yes, it should be named
{{wikicite}}
because that's the overwhelmingly used name now. - 2.: Of course the merged template must continue to support wrapping the full citation. I'm indifferent (though disapproving) to the current possibility of
{{SfnRef inline}}
to stand alone. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:07, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
- 1.: Yes, it should be named
- @Michael Bednarek, thanks for the response. To better understand your positions, are you saying:
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 01:43, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
To summarize in hopes of getting more input:
Editors agree there should be one template.
Editors raise two points that need to be addressed in the documentation of the merged template but do not affect merging the templates themselves:
- Should a non-wrapping anchor always come before (not after) the citation for better accessibility?
- Should non-wrapping anchors be discouraged?
For context: The live {{wikicite}} template can make non-wrapping anchors (follow the link Template:Wikicite/testcases#CITEREFBuchanan2023c to test), but the documentation does not mention it. {{SfnRef inline}} only creates non-wrapping anchors.
And Michael Bednarek raises one point to resolve in the template itself. Should the merged template be at
- {{SfnRef inline}} or
- {{wikicite}}
Thanks all for participating, Rjjiii (talk) 22:52, 27 May 2025 (UTC)
- (I think in bullet points:)
- Non-wrapping anchors seem strictly worse than wrapping anchors. I'm not sure what the imagined use case is.
- If you must create an sfn-linkable non-wrapping anchor, we already have
{{anchor|{{harvid|Foo|Bar}}}}
Is the semantic differentiation associated with / {{{1}}} valuable?
- If you must create an sfn-linkable non-wrapping anchor, we already have
- Reading between the lines, I think non-wrapping anchors are already discouraged.
- The
That is, the writer intended pages using to have a wrapping anchor (generated by a template) when those pages are complete.This is expected to be used temporarily, in cases where an editor is not certain how to format the full citation data into a template, or does not have time to do it
docs say: - Since the Easter egg. {{{1}}} docs don't mention non-wrapping anchors, I suspect that the "feature" is an
- The
- Non-wrapping cites should come before. There's a well-known LaTeX problem, when one expects hyperref links to lead directly to a floated figure. But they actually point to a floated figure's caption; to see the picture, one must click the link and then scroll up. We shouldn't replicate that problem in our citation system.
- The name {{{1}}} seems to my mind to make much more sense for the combined functionality. OTOH, I hadn't heard of until now. What feels natural to me may just be familiarity speaking.
- Non-wrapping anchors seem strictly worse than wrapping anchors. I'm not sure what the imagined use case is.
- Thanks, Bernanke's Crossbow (talk) 22:43, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
Template:Furry-con-list
- Template:Furry-con-list-start (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Furry-con-list-entry (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Single use templates only ever used for the associated lists at Furry convention. No other use for these templates. Jalen Barks (Woof) 03:24, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- Keep: The templates are also used on My Little Pony fan convention#Active events, created by GregariousMadness (talk · contribs) as of last month. Perhaps a rename to 'con[vention]-list-entry' or similar would be appropriate. The purpose of the templates was to remove duplicated and easy-to-mess-up markup required to display interleaved header rows and descriptions from Furry convention#Events, a layout which I was not able to find in existing templates at the time, and it still performs that function even if it was only used on one page. (I have however removed the width restriction intended to allow parallel display of images to the right from the start template, as it was causing overflow issues on Wikipedia's mobile skin, and most such images have now been moved - the default desktop skin also restricts width now.) GreenReaper (talk) 11:13, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- I am not opposed to a rename to allow for inclusion across multiple convention lists and articles with lists (not just furry conventions). With the inclusion in the new article by Gregarious, the original purpose of the template now has room for expansion beyond this limited scope. Jalen Barks (Woof) 17:42, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- Template:English legislation (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:British legislation before 1801 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:UK acts of Parliament lists (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:England laws was sent to TfD here as they were pretty much the same scope. While looking at the pages linked from those templates, I noticed that the above 3 are all pretty much included in Template:UK legislation. We don't need 5 navigation templates for the same scope if Template:UK legislation already has all of the links. Gonnym (talk) 14:17, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
- Keep - these have different scopes. Template:UK acts of Parliament lists is purely acts of Parliament from the UK, whereas Template:UK legislation covers all legislation from the UK and its predecessor states, and hence is a much heftier template. The same applies to the templates for English and British legislation - it is unhelpful to claim that one 'mega' template is better than more focussed ones. Mauls (talk) 14:21, 24 April 2025 (UTC)]
- The 'meta' template exists and is in use (and I did not create it). Since it exists, it isn't useful for our readers that we have navigation templates that don't follow WP:BIDIRECTIONAL. And it's a complete burden for our editors to have to maintain 4+ copies of the same list. Ah, I just noticed it was you that created 3 of these templates. Can you point me to a prior discussion which lead to the split? Any TfD? Gonnym (talk) 16:25, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Gonnym: what exactly is the proposal here: deletion or merge...? Vestrian24Bio 11:23, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
- A few points: I didn't create three of these, I created two of them; they do all follow WP:BIDIRECTIONAL (the meta template and 'English legislation' as collapsed horizonal at the bottom of each of their listed articles, the two other vertical templates at the top, uncollapsed in each of their listed articles - per WP:SIDEBAR). There is no need to maintain four of the same list, as it's three lists (England/Great Britain/UK), and one template combining three. See the bit in WP:NAVBOX about sidebars with a smaller, more tightly defined set of articles, and less-tightly defined lists being in a footer template - as is the case here. How is the change you are proposing in line with WP:NAVBOX? How will it benefit the reader? (I also have to confess that I'm a bit unclear what you feel the 'burden' is in maintaining a list of laws passed in years before 1707 and before 1801 respectively? As far as I was aware, there aren't any more years being added to past centuries?) Mauls (talk) 11:57, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
- The 'meta' template exists and is in use (and I did not create it). Since it exists, it isn't useful for our readers that we have navigation templates that don't follow WP:BIDIRECTIONAL. And it's a complete burden for our editors to have to maintain 4+ copies of the same list. Ah, I just noticed it was you that created 3 of these templates. Can you point me to a prior discussion which lead to the split? Any TfD? Gonnym (talk) 16:25, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
- Keep It is very misleading to name pages and categories here after the United Kingdom when they are defined as stretching back centuries before it existed - it treats the community as simple-minded, which it isn't at all. No harm in re-naming, if a better name can be found which avoids that trap. Moonraker (talk) 13:23, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:56, 6 May 2025 (UTC)
- Replace all with {{UK legislation}} as it includes all these. Vestrian24Bio 10:50, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
- An appallingly misleading approach. Moonraker (talk) 00:56, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
Rugby union squad navigation templates
- Template:Black Lion squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Boland Cavaliers squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Border Bulldogs squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Eastern Province Elephants squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Falcons squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Leopards squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Simbas squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:SWD Eagles squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Zimbabwe Goshawks squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Cobras Brasil XV squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Dogos XV squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Pampas XV squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Peñarol Rugby squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Selknam squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Yacare XV squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Ampthill squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Bedford Blues squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Cornish Pirates squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Coventry R.F.C. squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Doncaster Knights squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Ealing Trailfinders squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Hartpury University squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:London Scottish squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Nottingham R.F.C. squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Richmond F.C. squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:SU Agen Lot-et-Garonne squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Stade Aurillacois Cantal Auvergne squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:AS Béziers Hérault squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Biarritz Olympique squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:US Carcassonne squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Colomiers Rugby squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:FC Grenoble squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Stade Montois squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:US Montauban squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:USON Nevers squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Oyonnax Rugby squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Provence Rugby squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Rouen Normandie Rugby squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:CA Brive squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Hanazono Kintetsu Liners squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Green Rockets Tokatsu squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Toyota Industries Shuttles Aichi squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:NTT DoCoMo Red Hurricanes Osaka squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Kyuden Voltex squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Kamaishi Seawaves squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Hino Red Dolphins squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Shimizu Koto Blue Sharks squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Kurita Water Gush Akishima squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Skyactivs Hiroshima squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Chugoku Red Regulions squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Rarely used and updated templates for teams that all feature in competitions previously deemed non-notable or get little coverage, or no don't compete in the top tier of their domestic competition. I don't see how they bring any help to a reader in terms of navigation anymore. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 08:38, 13 April 2025 (UTC)
- Delete all: mostly either redlinks or nolinks. Vestrian24Bio 09:34, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
- Keep: the templates for clubs competing in the Pro D2 and Japan Rugby League One competitions (Divisions 1 and 2). I have no opinion about the others. It's fundamentally untrue that the Pro D2 and Japan Rugby League One (JRLO) are non-notable competitions. There's more than enough coverage of them if you look at more languages than just English. This type of template is only used in player biographies. If the templates of – for example – JRLO clubs are not used frequently, it's because many Japanese players don't have biographies in the English version of Wikipedia, but that is IMO no reason to delete the templates. They'll still be used in the biographies of (non-Japanese) players with a biography. There seem to be editors keeping squad lists of (some of) the clubs up-to-date. Why not ask those editors to also keep the templates up-to-date as well? They may not even be aware of the templates' existence and will possibly be happy to do it. I'm happy to keep a few of them up-to-date (I have done so in the past), but won't commit to doing all of them. Ruggalicious (talk) 12:25, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
- No point in having a navbox if it's filled with non-existent pages. Vestrian24Bio 12:32, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
- My only issue with Pro D2 and JRLO Div 2 teams is that only some of them include enough links to players with articles to make them worthwile to keep. If it was all of the teams then I wouldn't have included them. Part of the problem though is they haven't been updated in a number of seasons and so most of the links are no longer accurate and irrelevant. If there is consensus to keep these ones I'll remove. As a note there are no JRLO Division 1 templates here, only Division 2 and 3 (I guess there is no issue with Div 3 as there are barely more than 1 to 5 links max in these ones, again usually out of date) Rugbyfan22 (talk) 17:51, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 22:54, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 21:04, 20 April 2025 (UTC)
- Comment Any views on whether a closure is likely on this. Personally I don't see objection to deletion of the majority of templates here (only one vote against 20 of the templates here, other 30 have no keep votes at all) but if it is likely going to be no consensus, I'm happy to relist in smaller groups. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 09:55, 11 May 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. There isn't enough to keep any template. But even the one keep vote does not still address the major issue with these templates. 2 votes to delete all. This should be enough to close as delete. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:15, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
- I'd have no objection to Pro D2 or JRLO Div 2 templates being recreated if they can be shown to include more than 6+ links to articles on English Wikipedia, and are then regularly updated and transcluded to articles properly. At the moment though too many red links and out dated squad lists being included and I don't see an appetite to update these templates (especially compared to Top14 or JRLO Div 1 templates where there are more links and active editors patrolling/updating them). Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:40, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
- I agree. There isn't enough to keep any template. But even the one keep vote does not still address the major issue with these templates. 2 votes to delete all. This should be enough to close as delete. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 02:15, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
- Comment It is now been over a month since this nomination started back in April and no significant keep argument has been made. It is time to close this discussion to delete all. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:27, 1 June 2025 (UTC)
Completed discussions
[edit]A list of completed discussions that still require action taken on the template(s) — for example, a merge between two infoboxes — can be found at the "Holding Cell".
For an index of all old and archived discussions, see Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/Archives.